There is another RX8 project that is almost ready for the street with a custom turbo. In this thread you will find information and some pictures, http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=56057. The blue RX8 did 391 WHP and the red one did 276 WHP with a greedy turbo. I confirmed this information with the owner of the red RX8.

Best thread I ever read on this forum. Great stuff MazdaManiac.
Thanks,

Fabrice

Mazdamaniac, Thanks for all the help in trying to solve some of our Greddy issues,I have acouple questions I would like you to help clarify for me and educate me.

1. Your latest Acceleration Map is different than Greddy's and your earlier version, Why the change and what does this change seem to benefit..

2. Are all these changes coming from Dyno testing, AFR testing with wide band and what is your current AFR that you are running, are you staying in the 11.5-11.8 range..

3. Your earler version has an anti-stall control, your latest doesn't, does this help at all, or does it help just who have a BOV like me..

4. Your ignition map from your earlier version shows a a change from a high of -10 at 70kpa to your latest version that shows a high of -15 at 70 kpa, how does that seem to help you retarding that much, and greddy told me that doesn't work to control the timing in the e-manage.. please educate me on this also..

5. Finally does removing this temp sensor(dongle) benefit all, and is it important to remove if we where to download your latest map.

Jeff, as I said before, I appreciate all your help and I'am sure you know what you are talking about, I'am just trying to learn from the best , So please explain What ,Where and Why.... Again Thanks..

Mazdamaniac, Thanks for all the help in trying to solve some of our Greddy issues,I have acouple questions I would like you to help clarify for me and educate me.
I'll try...

1. Your latest Acceleration Map is different than Greddy's and your earlier version, Why the change and what does this change seem to benefit..
I don't actually use the acceleration or the NVCS MAPs in my setup. I just leave them in for those who might need them because they are using the Greddy turbo kit.
The NVCS MAP controls the dongle you mention below. If you keep it, use it. I don't have it, so it does nothing for me.

2. Are all these changes coming from Dyno testing, AFR testing with wide band and what is your current AFR that you are running, are you staying in the 11.5-11.8 range..
The changes are from street testing with an Innovative LM-1 wide-band attached permanently. Under load at the torque and HP peaks, I shoot for 11.5: or so, but it is not unusual to see 12.5:1 or even as high as 13.5:1 in some spots. If it doesn't knock, I don't care. When you are off of the torque and HP peaks, A/F is far les critical. If you could run at 14.7:1 without knock, you would make about the same power. 13:1 is really ideal for power. However, this doesn't give you much of a safety margin.

3. Your earler version has an anti-stall control, your latest doesn't, does this help at all, or does it help just who have a BOV like me..
The anti-stall profile was to help eliminate some of the backfiring between shifts. However, it would occasionally cause the power return back in gear to be too slow, so I took it out.

4. Your ignition map from your earlier version shows a a change from a high of -10 at 70kpa to your latest version that shows a high of -15 at 70 kpa, how does that seem to help you retarding that much, and greddy told me that doesn't work to control the timing in the e-manage.. please educate me on this also..
I bumped up (down) the 10 PSI range by another 5° so that the 8 PSI range would be another 2° mor retarded. This is mostly as a precaution since the temps are starting to rise now in the spring and the car has never seen warm weather under boost.

5. Finally does removing this temp sensor(dongle) benefit all, and is it important to remove if we where to download your latest map.
Only remove it if you have the previously mentioned problems with throttle response, lean running and bucking.

I'am just trying to learn from the best ,
Me too.

Jeff , That's the info I'am looking for.. Thanks for taking the time . I hope I can contribute too. And thanks for being so willing to share your info with all , Some I believe will always have a price on this info... Have a good day..

Jeff, is the latest map you have here, the one Philodox is talking about you helped him with... and if not what's the difference....

Also do you have an internal or external wastegate, depending on your answer I will have a follow-up question....

It is fundamentally the same MAP. There is just some differences in the timing MAP, which isn't used in the Greddy turbo kit.

I am using an internal wastegate.

Thanks jeff, the question I have , since you have an internal wastegate is- The adjustment on the arm ( can be screwed in or out). Do you have yours adjusted where the arm just slides over the pin, without any pulling of the arm to reach the pin. Because when I first installed mine, Greddy told me to back out the rod about 2 turns because they thought the boost was to high....

I don't think that is a major issue, since I could still adjust my boost from my E-01, but was wondering your input and if there is better setting...

You can only adjust the boost up with a boost controller. You can't make it less. That is why they suggest you relieve tension on the wastegate actuator.

I have might tightened down so that it won't open until it sees 6 PSI. That equals about 4.5 PSI in the manifold. Then, I adjust it up to 8 or 9 PSI with the Profec.

A lot of it has to do with how much pressure the wastegate actuator spring is designed to hold.
You should always verify the pressure of the WG actuator with a MightyVac or something similar.

Greddyturbo1,

On my experience, you can increase the boost on your boost controller but
the internal waste gate can't hold it at high rpm. To control better the boost and
get more HP go with and external waste gate. For the RX8 you will need a waste gate
not to big because the're is not to much space to install it, I recommend you the turbonetics
evolution.

Regards,

Manuel

The wastegate has nothing to do with not being able to hold boost at high RPM.
In fact, it would be the opposite. An internal wastegate might not be able to flow enough exhaust at high RPMs and cause the boost to creep upwards.

An external wastegate is nice, but completely unnecessary.

Greddyturbo1,

On my experience, you can increase the boost on your boost controller but
the internal waste gate can't hold it at high rpm. To control better the boost and
get more HP go with and external waste gate. For the RX8 you will need a waste gate
not to big because the're is not to much space to install it, I recommend you the turbonetics
evolution.

Regards,

Manuel

Thanks for the info, I'am getting ready to install my Innovate LM-1 Wide band sensor, I have the Rotary performance High flow cat and will be mounting the sensor just before the convertor.. Question once I have my AFR adjusted should I upgrade to a AFR gauge and monitor it all the time, or will the sensor eventually burn out. And can I monitor AFR with the E-01 it has a harness for it . I know it might not be as accurate as the wide band, but I could compare the two and add or subtract to get a closer reading..

Unfortunately, the sensor will probably burn up very quickly in that position.
I went through 4 sensors before I moved mine to a position after the resonator (just before the coupling with the pipe before the muffler).
This was with the HBX-1 bung extender and an external heat sink.

I use the analog output from the LM-1 and run it into one of the analog inputs on the E-01. That way I get extremely accurate A/F info in the same window with all of the E-Manage functions and the boost gauge.

Mazdamaniac, You say the sensor will burn out quickly in the position in front of the cat, but there is a sensor already in the greddy exhaust manifold pipe, is that different.. I figured once I have my AFR set I would disconnect and use the plug they give you, then just save till I have to retune or check from time to time this way it should last a long time..


Also back to your ignition map, once we start retarding the timing as you show on your map, some spots show a high of -10 retard, isn't that going to cause higher engine and turbo heat, or are we talking about a very small difference..

Jeff, in order to control timing on the greddy map/Turbo we need ignition wire harness, is this what you have to control your ignition, and if so does the harness come with instructions on what wires to splice , and do you have this info...

There is a wideband O2 sensor in that position, but it is heartier for some reason. The VW sensor that comes with the LM-1 (and every other WBO2S out there like AEM, LambdaBoy, etc.) just can't seem to survive. I have a graveyard of old sensors to prove it.

The high ignition retard happens at high boost. The higher EGTs are certainly less destructive than preignition and are only for a fraction of the throttle duty cycle while driving. I will add timing as I find it safe.

I have a whole thread here dedicated to installing the E-Manage. Go read it for all the info you need.

Thanks jeff, I will read it, But I'am interested in the E-01 programing too..

Jeff, I promise to leave you alone after this, aleast till after the weekend......
since you are operating with an E-01 ..

1. Start Boost- are you staying with 2.8psi less than Set Boost.

2. Gain - are you running 5%

3.RPM Offset - of the 8 settings where does your rpm start , and what are your increments
and I know our duty cycles might be different but what are yours..

I think that's it for now , As always I appreciate your help

The "Set Boost" number is a percentage of the mechanical boost threshold. "Start Boost" should be set under the target boost value.
I have mine at 6.8 PSI.
The gain is around 40%.
I am not using the RPM offset.

However, my wastegate is probably very different from the one in the Greddy kit, so the response will be different.

MM what program do I need to look at your fuel maps? Do you have any latest and greatest for the Greddy turbo kit, as far as maps go?

You need the Greddy Support tool. The last MAP that I have posted is still the most current.
I would like to get a copy of the program in the most current Greddy kits to see if there have been any additional changes made.

I just got the tool yesterday, I'm going to try it out today. How would a person go about getting you a copy?

Getting me a copy of what?

I think he meant getting you a "copy of the program in the most current Greddy kits to see if there have been any additional changes made."

Jeff, on a different note, do you talk to Scott down at Mazsport often, or ever? He's got my car right now, doing the GReddy install. I can't talk to him by phone anymore since I got to Iraq, but the last email he sent said they were busy working on something new as far as management for the GReddy kit.

I think he meant getting you a "copy of the program in the most current Greddy kits to see if there have been any additional changes made."
I'd love that. He can just post it here in a ZIP file. The files are small.

Jeff, on a different note, do you talk to Scott down at Mazsport often, or ever? He's got my car right now, doing the GReddy install. I can't talk to him by phone anymore since I got to Iraq, but the last email he sent said they were busy working on something new as far as management for the GReddy kit.
I haven't talked to him in a while, but I guess I should give him a call.

I think he meant getting you a "copy of the program in the most current Greddy kits to see if there have been any additional changes made."

Jeff, on a different note, do you talk to Scott down at Mazsport often, or ever? He's got my car right now, doing the GReddy install. I can't talk to him by phone anymore since I got to Iraq, but the last email he sent said they were busy working on something new as far as management for the GReddy kit.


Are you referring to the Greedy E-manage upgrade to the Gold series ?

Jeff could you please check your PM ;)

How hard would it be to make a copy of the Greedy turbo kit , as far as bending the pipes etc .

cheers
michael

Well thanks Jeff again for all the great info...

The answer is what estimated gains will be from updating the emange with the posted here map??I purchased my turbo after June so i believe all things up are the latest...Will i have good-big difference with your map??Are there good hp-tq gains??

Also will i be able to install again my high-flow cat and hit good afr number and run rich or arround 12???my cat is 5" size canzoomer midp-4....


BTW Jeff will you ever come back to Greece for some days-holidays maybe-and help us also tune our setups here??? :D :cool: :rolleyes: I wish...

Time to update this thread.

In the Spring of '06, about halfway between Albuquerque and Phoenix, the turbo totally stopped spooling.
Removing the manifold showed that a small amount of metal from the inner liner had come loose and lodged itself in the turbine. It caused no visible damage, but it did stop it from spinning.
The manifold itself was showing some stress cracks from movement of the turbo and contact with the frame of the car. Since I had a GReddy kit available, I switched out the manifold, turbo and downpipe and continued my tuning efforts using the smaller T618Z. The interveneing year is documented elsewhere as I pushed up the boost to double the original number and worked with several engine managment systems.

Last Wednesday, the GReddy turbo began to show signs of failure. Actually, it had shown a sign back in December when it made a really strange noise and stopped making boost. Scott at MazSport was kind enough to supply me with a turbo to replace it with, but when I got back to begin the removal process after a week away, I found that the turbo was working again normally. I just scratched my head and sent Scott's turbo back.
However, by January, I started getting smoke on a hot re-start or after extensive idling, which are both signs of oil blowby in the turbo. Then, last week, I noticed what I thought was the secondary air pump starting and stopping for an instant each time I turned the car off. Upon closer inspection, I realized that it was the turbo spooling down, which is not a noise I should be hearing.
After removing it, I found there was excessive play in the shaft.

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/new_turbo/wiggle.gif

I suspect that the turbo - already being held at the end of its efficiency range for long periods of time - was over-spun while at high RPM and mid-throttle. That was the noise I heard in December. After the bearings had cooled back down, it was able to spin again, but with too much clearance which increased over the next month and a half.

I played with all the possibilites - get a replacement GReddy turbo or re-build the current one, get a Garrett GT2871R and work the GReddy manifold to fit, buy a whole different setup or go back to my original setup.
Ultimately, it made the most sense to got back to the start. It was far less expensive and I had everything I needed in my garage.
So, a week later, I present to you the new manifold for my T3/T4 hybrid:

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/new_turbo/1.jpg

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/new_turbo/2.jpg

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/new_turbo/3.jpg

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/new_turbo/4.jpg

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/new_turbo/5.jpg

This version is 11 GA steel instead of 18 GA and is a "runner" design rather than a log. The legs are wildly shaped to allow for the maximum room for the turbo which is several inches closer to the motor and more horizontal than the last manifold.
Internally, the front and rear legs are stepped down to equal sizes and matched to the ports. The siamese port is about 1/3 larger than the other two primaries and the throat area is as big as I could get it.
This manifold eliminates some of the problems the first one had - it doesn't require gymnastics to get the parts into the car, the bolts are more easily accessed, the "high-stress" areas right at the ports are thicker and deflected to prevent overheating and cracking and the flow is better.
The new placement angle required that I rework the engine mount. The upper bar is "flipped and raised about 1 inch to a allow the inlet of the turbo to pass through, rather than over, the mount. I can still use the OEM rubber isolator to maintain the lower NVH levels.

Having a "spare" engine laying around made it MUCH easier to fabricate the manifold. The previous version required that I test each bend while laying on my back under the car.

nice... so i take it no gt28r?

nice... so i take it no gt28r?No. It would have cost me at least $1300 and its compressor map is no more efficient than the turbo I have.
The main reason to go to that turbo is packaging - it will fit on the GReddy manifold.
Since I can fabricate my own manifold, it was a wash and I get to keep my money.

Any chance there is an oil delivery/temperature problem that is cooking the center bearings?
Possible. I might grab another T3/T4 with a water-cooled center section (and a slightly bigger turbine A/R).
However, it doesn't look cooked.

When I rebuilt my gredy turbo it didn't have that much play in the shaft.
It still had some though.
Were you running a restrictor on the oil line to the turbo Jeff?

And when I install mine I'll have you come over to the shop and help.

When I rebuilt my gredy turbo it didn't have that much play in the shaft.
It still had some though.
Were you running a restrictor on the oil line to the turbo Jeff?

And when I install mine I'll have you come over to the shop and help.A little bit of play is normal - the oil film reduces it.
The amount of play mine has allows the turbine and compressor wheel to touch the housings!

I do have a restrictor. Always.

Let me know when you start the install.

I'm almost done here. I'll probably start it tonight after I make a checklist.

NIce work Jeff !!

As far as the oil temp being the problem with the bearings, I doubt it. I've had my extra oil cooler (which, incedentally came off a NASCAR) installed since I've had the turbo installed. I've had the little guy rebuilt once, and its due for another already. There wasn't any sign of oil coke the first time around. The bearings were just worn the F out. So I don't think its the oil temp.

Looking at the closest compressor maps that we have for this turbo, I'm sure that I'm running the turbo past the choke line at the PRs I'm running. Plotting the demand lines shows that the boost should fall off right at 6k - which is exactly what happens. When you run the turbo into that part of the map, the speed increases *dramatically*. Journal bearings don't last long when you're consistently over-spinning the turbo. I believe this is why the GReddy's aren't lasting very long. They are being run past the choke line as people turn-up the boost. They're just too small to flow what the Renesis demands at higher PRs.

I think only the one turbo had bearing issues. I have a home-made pill which is a good bit smaller than Jeff's restrictor. If memory serves me, Jeff's is 0.0625". Mine is 0.045" and the thing still is smoking. GReddy definintely F'd up. They gave us a turbo which chokes in the high RPM even at the PR they intended.

I'm not saying there's no way Jeff's turbo failing (which I think is probably exactly the same mechanism as the other GReddy failures documented here) is oil related. I'm just saying that even with restrictors of varying sizes and oil coolers the turbos are still failing. Reading the maps, we're over spinning them, which is known to cause premature failure of the journal bearings.

MM,
what was the milage you put on it before the turbo went?

Big nod to MD - that pretty much sums it up.
The right side of the flow map goes from all to nothing, so to speak, pretty rapidly. When you get to 1 BAR of boost at 32 lbs or so, the stack goes from 72% to choke in about .5 lbs.
The previous turbo "failure" wasn't a failure at all - a price of junk got stuck in the turbine like a stick in a bicycle wheel. The turbo survived that just fine and is back on the car right now.
The GReddy unit was brand new one year ago, so its been about 10k miles or so.

I wonder just what that foreign material was?It was a 1/4" x 1/2" piece of 18 ga steel that started out life as part of the inner channel of the turbo manifold.
Apparently, my weld wasn't very good and it broke loose.
It was sitting in the throat of the manifold when I pulled it off.

BTW - You can get a pretty decent sunburn while welding!
I bought a pair of welding goggles so that I'd have an easier time under the car then I did with a full-face helmet.
I ended up wearing them all the time and now I have a band of sunburn across my forehead and the tip of my nose!
I've lived in Phoenix for a year with no sunburn, but I manage to get one in three days of welding!

why would you want to restict flow to your turbo? to me thats like putting a blockage before the component that needs oil. your starving your turbo

I was re-welding the after-turbo piece on mine last sunday, and burned my face and forearms so much that the skin is is now peeling. :-)
It was read like I spend a day in the sun with no sunblock.
Gotta watch out for that UV

why would you want to restict flow to your turbo? to me thats like putting a blockage before the component that needs oil. your starving your turboWhy would you post something without doing the research? To me, that's like walking up to the information kiosk and asking them where the information kiosk is.
You are starving you mind.

if you ask me. the problem is the return line. if you have aq smoking turbo and you suspect its leaking pass the bearing. and the turbo is relatively new. oil return line is suspect. the greddy position just sucks for a oil return. it drains below the oil level and it has to drain forward, fighting forward motion. oil needs to be drained quickly to prevent it from backing up. my suggestion is to use a return pump and drain it back up, maybe into the oil cap area. i had similar problem once on a rotary conversion on a 911. the manifold that was made hung to low, causing oil to back up.

Not to be mean, but... Oh wtf. You have no idea what you are talking about. We've been studying this system now for 3 years. The turbo is above the oil line in the pan. Hence, it drains just fine. The journal bearings need surprisingly little oil. Its getting WAY too much with the standard Greddy oil line. Everyone that I know of that builds these systems puts a 0.065 restrictor in the oil line. Its just good practice.

I was re-welding the after-turbo piece on mine last sunday, and burned my face and forearms so much that the skin is is now peeling. :-)
It was read like I spend a day in the sun with no sunblock.
Gotta watch out for that UVI'm peeling in the aforementioned areas.
Your arms? You weld with your arms bare?
I'd be so scarred-up if I did that.

well you guys do what you want to do. i'll do it my way, you do it your way.

Scavenging pumps for oil return are a bad idea and don't live long.

If you understand the whole "fluid seeking its own level" thing, you will understand why the only thing that matters is the CHRA being above the oil level in the pan.

MM
I welded off the car. No worries about stuff dripping on me :-)
Scavenging oil with a pump is not so bad, as long as the pump is the right size and it is far enough from the turbo for the oil to cool off enough not to damage the pump.
My pump (after quite a bit of experimenting :) ) seems to be doing an excellent job removing that oil from under the turbo and pumping it up through the oil cap.

well you guys do what you want to do. I'll do it my way, you do it your way.

The restrictor is used because too much oil in the turbo bearing creates unnecessary pressure on the seals. they are not designed to keep oil from coming out, but rather to keep pressure outside from getting in.
1/4" oil feed will flows way too much oil from the engine and it builds up faster than it can drain on it's own and that causes problems.

Nice thread. I've seen it in person but never seen the thread until now.
He has done a great job.

Note to self:
Remember to put the circlip back on the wastegate actuator or you will have no boost.

Second note to self:
Remember to tighten the T-bolt clamp at the turbo outlet or you won't have much boost.

Third note to self:
Header wrap rocks, but it only works on the parts that are actually covered. The other parts are hot.

That is all.

So I gather I will see it this Saturday at the Pav's?

Oh yeah. She's all back together. Nothing leaking, though I haven't had the chance to kick the crap out of it yet.
I'll probably do some late-night drag runs out on Pecos tomorrow. I need to verify the tuning before the dyno session the following Saturday.
I've got better flow on both sides of the equation, so I want to take advantage of that before then.

It is certainly nice to not see or smell oil smoke!

Sounds good! Didn't you have adifferent Avatar earlier? I like variety.

...It is certainly nice to not see or smell oil smoke!

Mine doesn't have visible smoke (right now) but I HATE that smell! Its so bad that my GF refuses to ride in the 8 and tells me I stink when I get out of it! That's one reason my project moves the turbos up to the engine bay. I hated the PITA of chasing oil leaks on the GReddy setup. Just getting to the damn thing was a knuckle-busting exercise in frustration.

Mine doesn't have visible smoke (right now) but I HATE that smell! Its so bad that my GF refuses to ride in the 8 and tells me I stink when I get out of it! That's one reason my project moves the turbos up to the engine bay. I hated the PITA of chasing oil leaks on the GReddy setup. Just getting to the damn thing was a knuckle-busting exercise in frustration.Well, I had gotten the GReddy not to leak anywhere - except internally.
It would smoke everytime I allowed it to idle for more than 30 seconds and it would emit a HUG cloud when I would have a hot restart.

On the new turbo, I jumped through some hoops to fabricate the oil return and along the way it leaked.
The leaking saturated the header wrap and coated the undercarriage and it was still burning off even after I solved the leak.

Of all the automotive smells, that one I could do without.


Didn't you have adifferent Avatar earlier? I like variety.
'Tis the spice of life!

Jeff,

Nice home made turbo mainfold..lol I had to bring it back because it shows that your one of the pioneers in the RX8 tunning world.

Ben

Amazing to see the strides in turbo manifolds :)

http://www.turblown.net/store/index.php?productID=59

Pardon the thread necropsy but 225whp at 6psi, back in the day. Awesome. ;)

This thread is awesome. I remember reading through it on my first day as a member of Rx8club :) It was after reading this and RotoRocks thread that I decided I was turboing the Rx8.

What a long, strange journey it has been.

http://www.whetstoneaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/grateful_dead-steal_your_face-sailfastchicago.jpg

Its fun to read this thread and see where everyone is nearly 6 years later, you, RG, charles, hymee, richard paul, etc. quite the time machine.

You sure have tried a lot of configurations ...

You sure have tried a lot of configurations ...

Actually, twice as many as are outlined here on my own car.
A handful more on others.

nothing like a almost 6 year old thread that still delivers.
A time capsule indeed.

Respect, Jeff. I'd love to have these kind of fabrication skills. I'm glad I found this thread.

so you should post some new updated pictures