The exhaust manifold passes between the engine mount. Turbocharger isn't going to fit. Case closed.

I am not a turbo fan but because the exhaust manifold passes through some sort of engine mount does not close the case. Most race turbos are mounted onto fabricated manifolds/headers that look much more like the common N/A spaghetti header. With one of these one does not need to mount the turbo along the central axis of the engine.

It sounds like Mazda/MazdaSpeed doesn't think the turbo is a viable option, but they are going for a hydraulic supercharger instead.

This is from a Mazda tech guy that was at their Rev It Up event along with the RX-8.

I like superchargers better . i got a twin turbo rx7 and supercharge mellinia and i love the superchager way better .isay yes to the superchager less trouble and less heating problems.:D

yeah but with S/C there's no WHOOSH. :(

[moderator voice] we don't need another duplicate "turbo vs. supercharger" thread. use the search function and add on to existing one(s)... the answer is not a simple one[/moderator voice]

...in any case, MikeW you think you could provide us with a little more information regarding the situation of the logmeister in regards to the engine mounts?? then we could have a proper discussion. :)

noturbo noturbo noturbo, this should be a new word in the English language. Either that or "noturboplease".

Originally posted by MikeW
The exhaust manifold passes between the engine mount. Turbocharger isn't going to fit. Case closed. So? There's an exhaust manifold there, why does that mean that it will be impossible to put a turbo manifold there?
Originally posted by gazita123
It sounds like Mazda/MazdaSpeed doesn't think the turbo is a viable option, but they are going for a hydraulic supercharger instead... Sh'yeah, right. Mazdaspeed is going to put an untried and untested setup on a car and put a warranty on it? Think about it. I highly suspect your "source".

---jps

If you are worried about the engine mount being in the way in an RX-8, what you could do is buy a RX-7 with no motor then buy the first totaled RX-8 there is (i perdict 3 hours) and slap that renesis in your RX-7 and Turbo away! Also you might want to tear down the renesis and put the RX-7 rotors in (lower compression) just for detonation saftey reasons. Thats my plan. Probally won't happen right away because you got to figure out engine mounts and all that stuffs (would have to wait for pettit racing to do it). Engine management will be easy with a haltech or PFC.

Regardless of the possible design constraints of the engine bay, given the inherent power attributes of the RENESIS and rotarys in general I think a supercharger would work better than a turbo for overall driveability and emissions reasons.

If a supercharged version is eventually released, I hope Mazda doesn't forget about all of us upfront buyers and makes a Mazdaspeed "kit" available that can be installed without voiding our warranty.

;)

Originally posted by Sputnik
Sh'yeah, right. Mazdaspeed is going to put an untried and untested setup on a car and put a warranty on it? Think about it. I highly suspect your "source".
---jps

The guy worked for Mazda and worked with the development of the RX-8 here in the US. I talked with him since he was with the RX-8 with the Rev It Up tour. I would imagine that everyone could talk with him if he stays on the tour.

I understand the doubt, since no one is currently using this setup, but it makes a lot of sense.

1. A hydraulic setup makes up for the shortcomings of a direct drive pulley system, since the pump can work in a broader range of speeds and the output can be completely buffered from the input, so the output of the SC would be much more constant or could be variably controllable.

2. It is probably more efficient than an electric one if done correctly, since you have less lossy places where energy conversion is happening.

a. mechanical (engine) to mechanical (pump) to mechanical (hydraulics) to mechanical (hydraulic motor) to mechanical (SC)

b. vs. mechanical (engine) to electromechanical (generator) to electrical (wires) to electromechanical (electric motor) to mechanical (SC)

It may be a long shot, but it seems like a good solution to me from a technical stand point.

Besides, isn't the Renesis a brand new design that they are waranteeing?

It really wouldn't add any more efficiency to the setup, no more than the electric at least. Just because it is a mechanical to mechanical conversion, does not mean it is less lossy than a mecanical to electric conversion. The rev range has no impact whatsoever on a positive displacement supercharger because it pumps the same amount of air per revolution at low revs as it does at high revs. Then advantage of a hydraulic system would not be efficiency (as a direct drive system is the most efficient) but it would be to allow a variable pully rate for the supercharger. This would allow more tuning, by being able to vary the boost at certain points in the rev range. This is an awefully complex system, and it seems to go against the inherrent simplicity of a rotary engine. I'm still all for a simple intercooled pos. disp. blower (three more moving parts - two screws, and a water pump).

As a side note, there are superchargers out there that use a planetary gear set up to vary the pully rate as well. This would keep the efficiency of the direct drive, but allow for some tuning of the boost over the rev range.

If a supercharged version is eventually released, I hope Mazda doesn't forget about all of us upfront buyers and makes a Mazdaspeed "kit" available that can be installed without voiding our warranty.

I hope so 2, I hate to lose my warranty over a body kit.
Also hope XS, or turbonetics can put out turbo kit by this year, I have high hopes that they can.

Originally posted by moogle


I hope so 2, I hate to lose my warranty over a body kit.
Also hope XS, or turbonetics can put out turbo kit by this year, I have high hopes that they can.

Actually I was referring to a supercharger kit, not the Mazdaspeed RX-8 body kit, although it does look pretty kewl... ;)

Excuse my ignorance but I what is a "hydraulic supercharger"?? I thought all superchargers were pulley driven.

A hydraulic supercharger uses fluid under pressure through a hydraulic actuator in order to engage and disengage the compressor / the effects of the supercharger depending on when the boost is desired or programmed. At least that's my understanding.

LOL

No and NO !

I've already told you what the MPS will be :P

Originally posted by gazita123
It sounds like Mazda/MazdaSpeed doesn't think the turbo is a viable option, but they are going for a hydraulic supercharger instead.

This is from a Mazda tech guy that was at their Rev It Up event along with the RX-8.

Is the hydraulic supercharger better than a regular supercharger??? "hp,reliability, and so on."

I still prefer a turbo... if it's missing the whoosh its missing the magic.

ok, like i was saying... let's NOT have a superchargervs.turbovs.NOx thread...

in any case, as Maestro said, it's not going to have forced induction, and as Sputnik pointed out, it wouldn't be with such a radical system.

...and for gazita, the RENESIS isnt' a brand new design, even though it's never been in a production car before, the side-port layout has been around since the MSP-RE in the Evolv. testing and design have been going on for years and years and years...

in anycase, i still want to see this big problem caused by the engine mounts....

Originally posted by gazita123
1. A hydraulic setup makes up for the shortcomings of a direct drive pulley system, since the pump can work in a broader range of speeds and the output can be completely buffered from the input, so the output of the SC would be much more constant or could be variably controllable. How? How do you expect that one will be able to adjust the flow of the hydraulics while maintaining efficiency? 2. It is probably more efficient than an electric one if done correctly, since you have less lossy places where energy conversion is happening. Not if you are going to introduce equipment that has to control the flow so well that the SC provides smooth air delivery at all throttle and rpm positions. This is where the "suspicion" comes in. I have yet to hear of anyone even having a basic setup in prototype at this time, needless to say one as complex as what you are suggesting (not that I would know about each and every one). The basic theory sounds fine, at the 50,000 ft level, but there are alot of details to be eliminated by the time it's ready for mass production (on a mid-priced car, at that). Besides, isn't the Renesis a brand new design that they are waranteeing? No. It's actually just an update on an old, well tested design.
Originally posted by neit_jnf
...Excuse my ignorance but I what is a "hydraulic supercharger"?? I thought all superchargers were pulley driven... The setup that I am talking about is sometime referred to as a "hydracharger". Instead of transmitting the power for the SC via pulleys, the power is transmitted by hydraulic fluid instead. The same setup can be done between the turbine and compressor sides of a turbocharger. The hurdle is the lack of efficiency (alot of energy was lost pumping the fluid).

---jps

Actually the original MSP-RE came out in the RX-01 (220hp) concept back when the FD was released :D

This should also answer any questions about reliability. In theory this engine (its concept ) anyway as been tested for over 10 years.

And Mazda Engineers are always extremly good at designing new technology.

I mean they are the only manufacturer to build something other than the conventional piston engine (Primitive Boinger)

Think of the MSP-RE as the i-Mac new and innovative and doesn't crash (breakdown) every 5 minutes.

The piston engine is the grumpy old PC that chucks a sad and crashes ever 5 minutes (Cambelts, etc etc)

Maybe Mazda should start using this slogan.....

Mazda....... think different :D



Originally posted by wakeech
ok, like i was saying... let's NOT have a superchargervs.turbovs.NOx thread...

in any case, as Maestro said, it's not going to have forced induction, and as Sputnik pointed out, it wouldn't be with such a radical system.

...and for gazita, the RENESIS isnt' a brand new design, even though it's never been in a production car before, the side-port layout has been around since the MSP-RE in the Evolv. testing and design have been going on for years and years and years...

in anycase, i still want to see this big problem caused by the engine mounts....

you all know my veiws on this subject (tuuuuuurboooooo). But guessing has just gotten old, so i say we all wait until may when they finally get here, then wait another month to see who is really gonna dig into this issue, until then let look at pretty pictures :D

Originally posted by Maestro
Actually the original MSP-RE came out in the RX-01 (220hp) concept back when the FD was released :D

:P whatever...

Hey, I'm not sure it's relevant but i just saw a local performance magazine with a TURBOcharged s2000. 12.6s @ 115 mph 1/4 mile, stock weels and tires, 380 rwhp @ 13psi boost. The interesting thing is that it has a modified exhaust manifold that relocates the turbine to the front of the engine, thus a turbo system for the rx8 is possible. I think it may lose some thermal efficiency from the longer path of the exhaust to the turbine but it was all wrapped in thermal insulation. What do you think??

Ummm what does this look like to you ?

Originally posted by wakeech


:P whatever...

Also some light reading on the RX-01

here you will learn it has a multi side port motor too. the design has been @ Mazda since the early 90's

So what was it you said.......... Ummmm whatever ???

LOL

:P

Click the link below :D

]RX-01 Prototype (http://www.monito.com/wankel/rx-01.html)


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Maestro
Ummm what does this look like to you ?

[/QUOTE

Originally posted by neit_jnf
I think it may lose some thermal efficiency from the longer path of the exhaust to the turbine but it was all wrapped in thermal insulation. What do you think??

losing some of the energy in the exhaust would be the last concern if you were dealing with different lengths on the headers: the length difference itself would alter the motor's characteristics more. but yes :) certainly a good observation, and the wrap does help the exhaust maintain its higher energetic state (that's why the RX-8's header is double skinned).

For the last time its not coming out turbocharged !!!

Shhhheeesh!

:mad: :headsmack :evil: :loco:

Originally posted by Sputnik
How? How do you expect that one will be able to adjust the flow of the hydraulics while maintaining efficiency?

I believe there are variable displacement pumps/motors that could be used to adjust the speed ratio between the pump input and motor output shafts. I have no idea if this is the control method that has been employed in the design of these systems or not, however. I imagine a variable-size orifice used to bleed fluid from the high pressure line could be used to similar effect as well. But I don't know if that is how they control the unit, either.

-Max

Coming, as I am, from the world of Type R and iVTEC, I can only hope and pray for a normally aspirated solution. Car magazine in the UK has already hinted at an enlarged (1.5 or 1.6l) rotary with circa 280-300bhp.

No boost build up, no whoops and whooshes, no lag, no extra moving parts to go wrong. Just linear power and instant throttle response in all situations.

There's something wonderfully pure about normal aspiration that suits the rotary, even more so than iVTEC.

Ali,

I think the turbo/supercharger talk is in relation to boosting power in the current Renesis engine which will be in the cars that many (if not most) on this forum have ordered.

I don't think anyone would be dissapointed with a bigger rotor or 3-rotor engine if it became available.

-Mr. Wigggles

Ps. Forget 3 rotor, how about stacking two Renesis engines together sharing the same crank? :) 500HP hmm... (drool)

Originally posted by MrWigggles
Ps. Forget 3 rotor, how about stacking two Renesis engines together sharing the same crank? :) 500HP hmm... (drool)

...yeah, um, i think they'd do better than just 500 ;)

although it's a race engine, it's a 10 year old race engine: the R26B used a mechanically variable length intake tract, and made like 900hp (or something) at 9000rpm... :D

...anyhoo, a four rotor would really be only for a true super-car exotic, nothing that would ever trifle in an RX-7 (putting it out of the price range of anyone on this board).

Originally posted by maxcooper
...I believe there are variable displacement pumps/motors that could be used to adjust the speed ratio between the pump input and motor output shafts. I have no idea if this is the control method that has been employed in the design of these systems or not, however. I imagine a variable-size orifice used to bleed fluid from the high pressure line could be used to similar effect as well. But I don't know if that is how they control the unit, either.
.. That's about all I can come up with too, but the thing with that kind of setup is that it will eat up energy with that kind of restrictive method of adjusting flow rates.

---jps

At least someone is listening. :D

its a 10mm increse in rotor width.



Originally posted by Ali
Coming, as I am, from the world of Type R and iVTEC, I can only hope and pray for a normally aspirated solution. Car magazine in the UK has already hinted at an enlarged (1.5 or 1.6l) rotary with circa 280-300bhp.

No boost build up, no whoops and whooshes, no lag, no extra moving parts to go wrong. Just linear power and instant throttle response in all situations.

There's something wonderfully pure about normal aspiration that suits the rotary, even more so than iVTEC.

R26B = 690bhp @ 9,000rpm

Also the R26B and concept MSP-RE both share one attribute 3 spaks per rotor


Originally posted by wakeech


...yeah, um, i think they'd do better than just 500 ;)

although it's a race engine, it's a 10 year old race engine: the R26B used a mechanically variable length intake tract, and made like 900hp (or something) at 9000rpm... :D

...anyhoo, a four rotor would really be only for a true super-car exotic, nothing that would ever trifle in an RX-7 (putting it out of the price range of anyone on this board).

Originally posted by Maestro
At least someone is listening. :D

its a 10mm increse in rotor width.
That hasn't been confirmed either. It's only been a suggested as a possibility. Noone has gotten any official word yet, and we haven't had any insider verification of any of the rumours either.

---jps

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrWigggles
[B]I don't think anyone would be dissapointed with a bigger rotor or 3-rotor engine if it became available.

[QUOTE]

Can you have more than two rotors and still side-port?

Yes the priciple of the rotary engine hasn't changed. Only the inlet port design has.

Originally posted by Sputnik
we haven't had any insider verification of any of the rumours either.

---jps

...don't be so certain ;)

Originally posted by wakeech
...don't be so certain ;) Then show me, please.

---jps

So how much HP boost are we talking about iwth a SC on the engine? would it hit 300 hp? and at what additionals cost. i much rather get a rx8 if it hits 280-300 than a maxima

Originally posted by simonr
Can you have more than two rotors and still side-port?

Since the very first production rotary, the intake ports have ALWAYS been side port. The current production 20B uses side port intakes. I don't see why side port exhaust should cause any extra problems for constructing a three rotor.

Originally posted by RedRotaryRocket


Since the very first production rotary, the intake ports have ALWAYS been side port. The current production 20B uses side port intakes. I don't see why side port exhaust should cause any extra problems for constructing a three rotor.

i guess the hard part would be to do the 3rd intake port on the new rotor, that's a bit more intake manifold to manage but assuming exhaust ports are the same on both sides of each rotor ... hrm now you got me thinking :confused:

Originally posted by TheSaCK
So how much HP boost are we talking about iwth a SC on the engine? would it hit 300 hp? and at what additionals cost. i much rather get a rx8 if it hits 280-300 than a maxima That all depends on the setup.

The one thing that we have heard from known insider(s) is that the target for a Mazdaspeed version is a minimum of 300 hp. But a target doesn't mean that that's what will happen.

And we don't know the pricing, the timing, or the method, yet. We have some educated guesses, but no confirmation.

---jps