One common measurement of handling is the slalom speed. How fast do you think the RX-8 will go in the slalom? :)

This question makes no sense to me.

which slalom ?

How can we guess ?

What is the meaning of this poll ?

I would hope it is at least 2mph better than a 350Z.

However as there seems to be no standardized slalom test (some magazines seem to have different spacing of cones on different surfaces and hence different slalom numbers for the same car) it would be difficult to suggest a number for this poll. Perhaps if you suggest the Car & Driver or Road & Track slalom specifically and give some examples of others cars' numbers (Porsche, Ferrari etc :) ) then we can participate in the poll better.

My bad guys,

I thought that the slalom test was pretty much standardized. I found out that the Road&Track slalom is a 700 ft course with cones spaced 100 ft apart. The Motor Trend slalom test is a 600 ft course with cones spaced 100 ft apart.

The times should be pretty similar for both tests as this isn't a race for best time for the different distances.

Let's go with the Road&Track slalom test which they descibe as:

"run through eight cones spaced at 100-ft intervals, samples both controllability and grip during transient handling. Significant difference is 1.0 mph"

Some other times from Road&Track (in mph):

02 Acura NSX ............... 65.8
02 RSX Type-S ............. 66.8
98 McLaren F1 ............. 64.5
99 TT Coupe (turbo)..... 64.4
02 330Ci ...................... 63.1
00 Camaro SS ............. 60.0
03 Corvette Z06 ........... 67.5
99 Viper GTS-R.............. 65.3
01 SVT Mustang Cobra . 62.9
01 Accord EX V6 ........... 58.2
01 S2000 ..................... 65.9
01 Miata ....................... 62.7
01 Maxima SE................ 60.4
00 Jetta GLX ................. 61.2

Brian

Some more times (from their "Get a Grip" test of top handling cars):

Lotus Elise: 73.0
Porsche 911 Turbo: 70.2
MP3 Protege: 70.2
Porsche Boxer: 69.7
Ferrarri 360 Modean: 69.7
Mitsubishi Lancer VII: 68.7
BMW M3 Coupe: 67.4
Chevy Corvette Z06: 67.3

Originally posted by Buger
My bad guys,

I thought that the slalom test was pretty much standardized. I found out that the Road&Track slalom is a 700 ft course with cones spaced 100 ft apart. The Motor Trend slalom test is a 600 ft course with cones spaced 100 ft apart.

The times should be pretty similar for both tests as this isn't a race for best time for the different distances.

Let's go with the Road&Track slalom test which they descibe as:

"run through eight cones spaced at 100-ft intervals, samples both controllability and grip during transient handling. Significant difference is 1.0 mph"

Some other times from Road&Track (in mph):

02 Acura NSX ............... 65.8
02 RSX Type-S ............. 66.8
98 McLaren F1 ............. 64.5
99 TT Coupe (turbo)..... 64.4
02 330Ci ...................... 63.1
00 Camaro SS ............. 60.0
03 Corvette Z06 ........... 67.5
99 Viper GTS-R.............. 65.3
01 SVT Mustang Cobra . 62.9
01 Accord EX V6 ........... 58.2
01 S2000 ..................... 65.9
01 Miata ....................... 62.7
01 Maxima SE................ 60.4
00 Jetta GLX ................. 61.2

Brian

Doesn't look likely that the RX-8 will be in either of the top two categories in the poll.

What makes the slalom time interesting is that most sports cars are usually geared for fast 0-60 times and need to be in their lower torque 3rd gear for their best slalom times. The RX-8 is geared so that it can reach approx 69 mph @ 9000 rpm and 73 mph @ 9500 rpm in second gear.

Want to talk wide powerband? How about 95% or greater torque from 37 mph to 66 mph in 2nd gear?!?!

Despite it's long wheelbase, the RX-8 may end up surprising people who don't think that any 4-door "sports sedan" can have similar handling to the small nimble s2000. Can the RX-8 possibly beat it? :)

Brian

Interestingly, the G35 had better slalom times than the 350Z in car and driver and road and track (I think those were the mags) despite being a few hundred pounds heavier. It got around 67 mph in both magzines.

I assume the G35 that had the better times had to be the coupe version right? It still wouldn't seem to make sense that the G35 coupe would be faster in the slalom than Nissan's dedicated sports car 350z.

Were the times very close to each other? It would be interesting to see a head to head test of the 2 cars.

Buger,
Attached is the Road and Track article:



http://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/roadtests/ArticleDisplay.asp?ArticleID=372&page=3

G35: 67.7 0.92G
350Z: 65.6 0.89G

They said it "feels more balanced and stable through the corners." It sounds like that rx7 and rx8 video floating around. :)

http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/roadtests/2003/january/0301_roadtest_g35.xml

This Car and Driver article says that G35 got 0.90G on the skidpad (besting the 350Z's 0.86G from an earlier test).

Unfortuantely, Car and Driver didn't give slalom times, which is the better measurement IMHO.

Thanks for the links revhappy,

It's odd that Nissan/Infiniti gave the G35 better handling capabilities than the 350z. There must be a few upset 350z owners who wished they had gotten a G35?

I can imagine, but I think the G35 is more money? What do you think accounts for the better handling stats of the G35? Better tires, suspension, etc?

While, I think the slalom test is a decent, rough indicator of a car's ability to make quick transitions, i don't think its a definitive proof of a car's handling ability. I thought Road and Track's "Get a Grip" comparison I referenced before, provided a nice mix of different handling measures. Too bad, all reviews don't utilize all those tests.:(

I still would much prefer taking an S2000 (or a Miata), out for a drive through the mountains than a G35, no matter what the slalom times indicate. :)

Originally posted by revhappy
I can imagine, but I think the G35 is more money? What do you think accounts for the better handling stats of the G35? Better tires, suspension, etc?

Having driven both the Z and G35 recently, it can be reported that the Z tested had Bridgestones (RE050, IIRC) and the G35 had Michelin Pilots (can't remember the spec but they were not all seasons). The G35 was a little more 'softly' suspended. So the tires are a tossup and the suspension goes to the Z (where stiffer would be a benefit on a smooth course slalom).

The V6 protrudes forward of the centerline of the front wheels on both cars which puts a lot of weight on the nose. The Z sits on a 104" wheelbase and the G35 sits on a 112" wheelbase. Better weight bias front to rear in the G35 probably accounts for the difference.

And I'd take my Miata on a twisty road any day over a G35; but, if I had to hustle three people through Texas in a hurry, the G35 would not be a bad way to do it.;)

Maybe they felt more comfortable pushing the G35 than the Z. I don't know how many runs they take at the slalom to get a best time, but I imagine that if the Z felt more "twitchy" they might have held back from pushing it to the limit. Just a thought.

Originally posted by Fëakhelek
... I imagine that if the Z felt more "twitchy" they might have held back from pushing it to the limit...

Twitchy doesn't bother these guys, honest. :eek: If you look at the backgrounds of the guys they have doing the testing you'll see lot's of driver's school time and quite a bit of road racing experience. They enjoy hanging the tail out, with a passion!

What can seriously hurt slalom times is 'understeer' otherwise known as 'push'. The only way to counter that in a slalom is to lift throttle (and hope like hell that you don't induce lift throttle oversteer - watch a swing arm rear suspension at the limits when the throttle is lifted, it's how Ralph Nader got his start ;-).

So the problem is that a nose heavy car will push and the only practical way around that in a slalom is to lift and then you've elongated your times. (Now on a road course you can induce oversteer by manhandling the car if it pushes - it's a kick in the butt to take a lap with a driver that has that kind of skill.)

Road & Track's April 2003 issue says that they tested the 700-ft slalom at 65.4 mph

65.4 Heh. What was the Zs again? :o

65.6.

Regardless of the fact, the handling of the RX-8 is superior as per Car and Driver's notes... so I'll take their word for it.

Originally posted by ToRX-8orToZ
65.4 Heh. What was the Zs again? :o

ROAD AND TRACK
Mazda RX8: 0-1/4 mile 14.5 @ 95.6 mph. Skidpad 0.88g
Nissan 350Z: 0-1/4 mile 14.4 sec @ 99.7 mph. Skidpad 0.88g.

big advantage having so much more torque:)

Originally posted by atr_hugo
Having driven both the Z and G35 recently, it can be reported that the Z tested had Bridgestones (RE050, IIRC) and the G35 had Michelin Pilots (can't remember the spec but they were not all seasons). The G35 was a little more 'softly' suspended. So the tires are a tossup and the suspension goes to the Z (where stiffer would be a benefit on a smooth course slalom).

This is my question, how big of a factor are tires in this test? Methinks its a big factor and the proof is right above us. Imo the Pilot Sport is a much better tire than the RE040.. this might be why the G35 is able to beat the Z, IF the G35 coupe comes with the Pilot Sport tires. I'm assuming it does, there is no way it could achieve this speed on all season tires.

So for the RX-8 make sure you try to order it with the S03 and it should be faster around the cones than the Z if these numbers mean so much to you. :)

Being 200 some odd pounds lighter, I was expecting the 8 to easily have better slalom times then the Z.

Originally posted by ToRX-8orToZ
Being 200 some odd pounds lighter, I was expecting the 8 to easily have better slalom times then the Z. It is also a much longer car, so don't forget that.

The McLaren F1 has a longer wheelbase to achieve great handling yet its slalom is less than impressive. While it's a good measure, it's not the only measure. The Lotus Elise for example is a VERY short car and thus has *great* slalom numbers, same with the Mazda Protege MP3.

Originally posted by Hercules
It is also a much longer car, so don't forget that.

The McLaren F1 has a longer wheelbase to achieve great handling yet its slalom is less than impressive. While it's a good measure, it's not the only measure. The Lotus Elise for example is a VERY short car and thus has *great* slalom numbers, same with the Mazda Protege MP3.

So a longer car is the primary driver of times in slalom tests?:confused:


Let's see:

G35: Length: 182.2 inches
Wheelbase: 112.2 inches
Slalom Per R&T: 67.7

350Z:Length: 169.6 inches
Wheelbase: 104.3 inches
Slalom Per R&T: 65.6

Since they are built off the same chassis, some other
thing (s) must be accounting for the times?

It seems you changed your single explanation for the MP3's great slalom times? (BTW. the RX8 is actually .3 of an inch shorter than the Mazdaspeed Protege!) In the post below, you said it was because the MP3 was lighter than the competition.

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=30429#post30429

As you see in my reply to your post in that thread (and can probobly infer from this one) that the expalantion why cars get good slalom times is more complex than you suggest. In my reply there is a link to a post in the WRX forum (yes a link to a link!) that gives IMHO some good insight as to some of the things which may influence slalom and skidpad times.

The thing that irked me was R&T's comments of "moderate understeer" on the skid pad and "mild oversteer" on the slalom, the two things you don't want on those respective tests at least according to the post on the WRX forum

Are these tests always conducted in the same spot on the same surface, with very similar temperatures? If not, I'm sure the differences in the above can/will affect the results.. Just like in a skidpad test.

It is also a much longer car, so don't forget that.

RX-8 Wheel Base: 106.4

350Z Wheel Base: 104.3

Its not much of a difference.

I honestly expected a slalom time around 66-67. I have a feeling Mazda may have sacrificed a little too much by going with a soft suspension; it shouldnt be too difficult to cut down on the body roll R&T was commenting on.

its really strange how diff mags say different things. I remember reading one mag saying ride was comfortable and quiet and another saying it was a bit noisy. :confused: :confused: :confused: Then this handling....one mag says its not "grippy" compared to the Z and understeers, another says moderate oversteer can be easily induced :confused: Anyone have ideas as to why this is?

Originally posted by Quick_lude
Are these tests always conducted in the same spot on the same surface, with very similar temperatures? If not, I'm sure the differences in the above can/will affect the results.. Just like in a skidpad test.

Quicklude,
That's a very good point. The Road and Track article linked below qualitatively states the G35 handled better and then backups it up with the numbers. They also imply the cars were tested on two different days at their testing facilities, which I guess are in Southern California??? If so, there is a decent chance the there wasn't a huge difference in temperature (in comparison to how much the temperature can vary in other place- i.e. New York), but I can only speculate as to the actual testing conditions (I think R&T does list them on some articles now).

http://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/roadtests/ArticleDisplay.asp?ArticleID=372&page=3

there can be a lot of excuses made about why the rx-8's slalom speed is somehow "lower than it's supposed to be", but the truth still remains that it wasn't as impressive as we thought it should be. from what i've read from this forum, most people will drive the car stock and do little or no modification on it (thus the notorious concern about low end torque), so stock numbers should matter no matter what tires the car is running on. i wonder why it didn't perform better on the slalom, when all the reviews seem to suggest that the 8 is a great cornering machine? I know that slalom speed isn't the the only measure of cornering performance, but still...

when all the reviews seem to suggest that the 8 is a great cornering machine?

Reviews that pit it up against the G35 and a Mustang.... yeah, comparitvly its a great cornering machine (the Stang is a clunker around the corners, and the G35 has a longer wheel base and 200 more pounds then the Z).

Originally posted by ToRX-8orToZ


Reviews that pit it up against the G35 and a Mustang.... yeah, comparitvly its a great cornering machine (the Stang is a clunker around the corners, and the G35 has a longer wheel base and 200 more pounds then the Z). I fail to see the point. If you want to pit it up against the Z itself it's rather pointless as the RX-8 has four seats and four doors. The least we can do it pit the car against similar cars. G35 Coupe is pretty good as far as that's concerned, and if you read the Road and Track article about the G35 Coupe.. it handles better than the 350Z. So a comparison there is moot already.

What I want to see is it compared to the 330Ci, G35 Coupe, and a few others. Would be nice to see.

it handles better than the 350Z.

The G35 does not handle better then the Z.

Originally posted by ToRX-8orToZ


The G35 does not handle better then the Z. It's not my words.... it's Road and Tracks.

Take a read:
And thanks to its slightly longer wheelbase (112.2 in. to the Z's 104.3), the car feels more balanced and stable through corners than the Z, especially noticeable through quick left/right transitions where the Z's rear end can become a touch twitchy. In fact, the G35 recorded better handling numbers at the test track. It achieved 0.92g around the skidpad and danced through the slalom at 67.7 mph, besting the 350Z's 0.89g and 65.6 mph.

Thus if A > B, and B > C, A > C.

A = the RX-8, B = G35 Coupe, and C = 350Z.

Simple logic I use :)

What happened to the numbers don't mean everything stance you took when the G outscored the 8 in R&T?

The Z gets better lap times then both the 8 and the G35... so what would account for that?

Originally posted by ToRX-8orToZ
What happened to the numbers don't mean everything stance you took when the G outscored the 8 in R&T?

The Z gets better lap times then both the 8 and the G35... so what would account for that?
To answer this I'll do it in a few parts...

First, WHICH TRACK did the Z get better lap times than the 8, or G35? Not the same track as the run in C&D (which was by the way, full of straights), in which the Mustang took top honors. It was a power track meants for the monster engines. If you watched the C&D television program they still claimed the RX-8 was the easiest, and best to carve thru the turns at the track (the little there were).

Secondly, who is talking about numbers? I reposted the paragraph that explained the G35 Coupe was a better handling car but apparently you didn't read it. Let me idiot-proof it for you:
And thanks to its slightly longer wheelbase (112.2 in. to the Z's 104.3), the car feels more balanced and stable through corners than the Z, especially noticeable through quick left/right transitions where the Z's rear end can become a touch twitchy. In fact, the G35 recorded better handling numbers at the test track. It achieved 0.92g around the skidpad and danced through the slalom at 67.7 mph, besting the 350Z's 0.89g and 65.6 mph.
That bolded section refers to no 'numbers' but by the writers feel for the car. And being that Sam Mitani has reviewed more than a few cars to most everybody's approval, I'll take his word for this also.

Lastly, please, and I ask this nicely... if you're going to debate that's fine.. but provide proof and references for what you're trying to back up. It's easier this way for both you to prove your point or vice versa.

Hope I cleared it up.

Herc has shown B>C. Now we'll see A>B hehe

Latest Car and Driver comparo.
G35C .86g
RX-8 .91g

Car and Driver: "a considerable margin beyond the cornering capablities of these two competitors. Its transient handling is similarly superior. And the RX-8 is the best stopper of this bunch."

is that to mean that the rx-8 is superior handling-wise?
________
Marijuana Strain Index (http://strainindex.com)

Im SICK of this.... and i bet all of the rest of you are too.... There is NO way to win(im on the rx-8 side) at stat racing, hardly any of the tests are the same, drivers are not the same, tracks are not the same... i could list more... If you like the RX-8 BUY the rx-8, it has great value(dont make me define value) along with the rest of the comparo cars... we all know all the damn stats already.... Sick.. Just sick....

my opinion...

Gimme the damn car already!!!!!