Mazda should fix the flooding problem. Yup, care to bet how many engineers are working on it? Think this is some new phenomina created by the Renesis design?

I got my 8 last August and drove it regularly until December 18th, when I had to put it on blocks for the winter. Sorry, no salt for me! Before August, I drove a 1988 RX-7 from 46K to 108K miles over seven years. It was a GREAT car. But, it had a flooding problem. If I started it cold and moved it from the garage to the driveway and washed it.. it flooded. If I drove it a mile to the gas station, no problem, started without a problem. Sound familiar?

There were a number of ‘wives tales’ / sure cures suggested for the problem. Add an extra ground wire from the chassis to an open plug in the wiring harness. Remove the fuel injection fuse and crank for thirty seconds. Add a quarter cup of Automatic Transmission Fluid to the rotor chambers, close it up and crank with the pedal to the floor. It’s hard to believe, but this one worked, most of the time! When it started to sputter and catch, a huge cloud of white smoke was produced which continued for about five minutes. After that, back to normal.

When it was flooded, the engine would turn over really fast because it lost compression. The gas caused the apex seals to become ineffective. The story on the ATF was that it helped the seals to work in conjunction with the carbon film on the inside of the rotor chamber to restore compression.

Since this was a painful procedure to go through, I learned to leave the car running a few minutes if I was going to wash it. Any time I cold started the car, I remembered to pay attention.

Until Mazda (or Canzoomer ;-) finds a way to keep this quirk from happening, you’re going to have to pay attention when you cold start the car! If you can’t accept that this problem hasn’t been solved in the last twenty years, by the only company to successfully commercialize the Wankel engine, then buy a fricking piston engine car! If you’re a drag racer, buy a WRX or 350Z. The RX-8 is a road car!

Sorry, off subject. Please respond with more details on the RX-8 version of flooding. Do you notice the fast revving? Has anyone found a procedure to re-start easily? Anyone care to try the ATF solution??

I’m going to continue to pay attention when I start it cold!

cc

Well after three plus years of rotary ownership I have finally done it, flooded an RX (I am praying its only flooded--anything else gets real scary and expensive quickly). After a while sitting (probably 15 days) I went to drive the FD last week and after the car started it sputtered and died as I was backing out of my driveway. I have tried the usual flooding procedures several times and I can't get the car running so tommorrow I am changing the bottom set of plugs to see if that helps. Just so you know, it cranks fine, turns over and starts but dies either immediately or within a few moments--the white exhaust smells of gas, not sweet like the fun you get with the coolant seal failure. Wish me luck on getting my 300 rwhp baby on the road again without major money.
Anyway, the question with the 8 is, I know old Rx's can flood when the sit awhile, battery dies or in a couple other situations. Do we have to worry about these reasons for flooding the 8 or is the only worry a cold start followed by a quick turnoff. Anyone have any ideas.

All right!!! Finally somebody said what I always wanted to say....I too have owned many FC's....yep same flooding problem....well not a problem as I haven't flooded my 8 at all. I just use my past rotary experience, and take the proper steps. It's not really that big a deal to me....one day, they'll all get it, or sell them to rotorheads.....who knows.

I don't think anyone's ever insinuated that the FC's didn't flood sometimes when you shut them off cold, just like the rx8 does. That's why there's a short-trip procedure in the maunal.

The problem with the RX-8 does not concern me directly - I've flooded once - short move problem - although I have had a couple of hesitant starts. My concern is the barrier to successful US marketing if the issue is not completely put to rest.

I'm hoping for a two seater Rx and a convertible in the near future - this will only happen if the RX-8 is a runaway success.

The American market expects a car that can be moved for 30 feet to 300 miles with no babying.

John

I remember back years ago, early 80s FBs (12A) had flooding problems too. One popular remedy was to squirt a little Isopropyl alcohol into a vacuum port on the intake.

Senseny: are you able to get an indication that the tip seals are making compression at some point when you follow the procedure, or are you only getting the "no compression like the plugs are out" at all times?

What worked for me when my FD was flooded for the first time ever in 90,000+ miles of use by one of my employees a coupla weeks ago was:

* Crank and floor the accelerator. Keep the pedal there - do not release.

* Crank in 5-8 second bursts until you hear your compression come back.

* Release the pedal and crank again. Mine fired immediately.

* Car should go to a high idle on its own. If it doesn't, be ready to help it, cause you won't be running on all four plugs. This means "forcing" the throttle until you can get the plugs cleared.

* It'll make a lot of smoke. Make sure you're either outside or have the garage door open.

This is the simple version of the procedure and should work for 90+% of the time. Pulling the plugs sould work for the next 8% of the occasions and the transmission-fluid-in-the-plug-holes methods for only the absolute worst cases.

Good luck!

Only answered half the question.. on the 8, I don't think we have enough history in the community to know about the other situations, which I've personally never experienced. But both my FC and FD have sat for months with no startup or flooding problems, and I've also never had a low battery charge situation flood either one.

The general experience seems to be more closely related to a cold start with immediate shutdown. Anyone else?

Never flooded mine (knocking on wood), and I store mine for 6 months every year. I keep the battery in the basement, and charge every 2 weeks.

If it starts and then dies, it's not a flooding issue. It may -cause- flooding, but something else is wrong. I doubt it's engine mechanicals. Sounds like a fuel problem (bad pump - dirty filter - water in fuel) or spark problem (mouse nest in ignition ;) - dirty plugs - bad wires).

Originally posted by RX8_GT
The problem with the RX-8 does not concern me directly .... My concern is the barrier to successful US marketing if the issue is not completely put to rest.

I'm hoping for a two seater Rx and a convertible in the near future - this will only happen if the RX-8 is a runaway success.

The American market expects a car that can be moved for 30 feet to 300 miles with no babying.

John

I agree and I hope I'm right that there are a bunch of engineers working on it! My intent was to let those unfamilliar with previous RX's know that the car is not a mousetrap. The problem sucks, but its just not that difficult to avoid!

Not too difficult for rotorheads - but that said I just backed my SLK320 out of the garage 25 ft and have no concern that I will have any problem starting it later today when I will move it back.

This issue could IMHO kill the rotary-engined car in the US - just wait for the consumer agency / groups to get involved.

Does anyone know if Consumer Reports has rated the Rx-8? It sure won't be me talking to them - but someone will or has at this point. Their reaction will be over-kill.

Flooding in the RX-7 is old news - all the cars sold in the US are at least 9 years old - but a brand new state of the Wankel art sports car selling for 30K will be news.

Rotorhead since 1985

John

piston or rotary its not good to cold start an engine move the car a little and turn it off. sure we do it alot , just deal.. i just find myself going for a lil drive more often. :-)

i also make sure the 8 is never blocking another car in the drive way. i dont valet. if im faced with the sitution of valet where i have no option. im tossing the valet a 5 and telling em to keep it in the front. (they just got $5 to do NOTHING but look at my car)

i usually let the car warm up for 5 mins anyway before moving so i guess i have less to worry about.. ok but here is my problem i am gonna install the side markers today how do i turn the wheel w/o starting the car!

To answer the question from up the page about how Consumer Reports rates the 8. Based on their report of test track data, they give it (the 6 speed with Potenzas and not sure what other addons) the following:

Acceleration - Excellent (compared to what, they don't say but they do give it a 15.2 second quarter with top-end in the quarter at 92 mph.)
Dry Pavement Braking - Excellent
Transmission, Routine Handling, Emergency Handling - All Excellent
Fuel Economy- Whatever that circle with the bottom half colored in is, like one notch above Nasty (I'll use the term "Fair" for this symbol throughout the rest of this post)
Ride: Average (The circle with no shading in it)
Driving Posistion: Good
Noise: Average
Access: Average
Controls and Displays: Excellent
Fit and Finish: Good
Trunk: Fair (They didn't say with or without a spare)
Front Seat Comfort: Excellent
Rear Seat Comfort: Fair
City mileage 14 mpg / Hwy 22 / Avg 150 mile test trip mileage 20 (fairly close to what I've seen with respect to mileage on all counts)


In a head-to-head across-the-board comparison to other "sporty cars" they rated it 3rd overall, with the Ford Focus SVT coming in first and the Subaru Impreza WRX STi scoring only very slightly better. Fourth on their list was the EVO, followed by the Impreza WRX, Celica GT-S, VW Beetle Turbo S, Mini Cooper Base, Honda Civic Si, 350Z Touring, Acura RSX Type S, Crossfire, Tiburon GT (V6), with Eclipse GT (V6) coming in dead last.

I'm not saying I believe em or I agree with them. Someone up the page here just was musing about what they might be saying about the 8 and this is what I found on their site...

FirstSpin:

Great info - and overall very fair - but doesn't address my concern - that's the rating from a test drive situation/group comparison - not the aftermarket assessment that they often do after a new car introduction

John

If I'm reading it correctly, all they have to offer at this point is their test data. They indicate it's too new for owner-satisfaction and predicted-reliability data. Not sure if we're on the same page or not. No mention of flooding so far anyway that I could find.

FirstSpin

We're definitely on the same 'page' . The 'proof will be in the pudding' when CR looks at owner satisfaction and product reliability.

The issues of flooding, cold weather starting, etc. will be in the followup assessments.

I remember many new cars that were rated quite high at first - but followup assessments were poor. For example the Plymouth Horizon / Dodge Omni was Car of the Year 1978 for Motor Trend - long term they were IMHO garbage (I should know as owner of two of them - bought together when money was tight and fuel costs high - what a mistake !!!)

John

PS Took nearly 20 years until 1996 for me to go back to Chrysler

Why does'nt Mazda place some sort of timer that does not let the car shut down untill it has reached the proper temp. Like a turbo timer. Just an idea.

Originally posted by RotorGeek
Why does'nt Mazda place some sort of timer that does not let the car shut down untill it has reached the proper temp. Like a turbo timer. Just an idea.

Oh yeah, people would love that...a car that kept running after you shut it off....very safe in a garage, too. It's not like carbon monoxide kills or anything. :eek:

-Eric

MANY cars will flood if started, moved a few meters then turned off on cold engines. Rotarrys may, or may not be more prone to this, BUT it is NOT unique to Mazda Rxs. Fact.

Originally posted by Sue Esponte
Oh yeah, people would love that...a car that kept running after you shut it off....very safe in a garage, too. It's not like carbon monoxide kills or anything. :eek:

-Eric

Well, this would only happen if the car decides that the engine is too cold.

Or you can turn off the car cold and have flooded car in your garage.. I don't see the garage issue either, if you park head first (which you should do anyway to keep exahsut fumes out of your house when you turn the car on). Just keep the garage door open till the car shuts off..

if you think its flooded, the easiest way to restart is is to either;
use a set of jumper leads (works every time, takes a matter of 2-3 minutes)
OR, "bump" start using a tow. Again, works everytime on Rx or Pistons.

7878

You are wrong - sorry. "MANY' is wishful thinking. I have a Honda 2003 CRV and 1994 Passport, a 1996 Chyrsler Town and Country, Mercedes 2001 SLK320 and 1994 E320 - along with my Mazdas in the yard now.

I can start all the piston engined cars - including the Miata - move them 20 feet and shut down in less than 2 minutes without concern - that is not true for my RXs.

John

I remember back years ago, early 80s FBs (12A) had flooding problems too. One popular remedy was to squirt a little Isopropyl alcohol into a vacuum port on the intake.

I use to always carry a can in my '80 and '84 RX-7's. It did the trick.

Originally posted by 787B
MANY cars will flood if started, moved a few meters then turned off on cold engines. Rotarrys may, or may not be more prone to this, BUT it is NOT unique to Mazda Rxs. Fact. I've never heard of this problem before I bought my 8... over the years my family's had a Ford Falcon, Ford Gran Tourino (think Starsky & Hutch), Lots of Chrystlers, a Dodge Omni, Toyota Sienna Minivan, Cadillacs, and a Honda Civic. Also, the rotary engines won't clear themselves with the passage of time, like other flooded vehicles will do. I'm totally with John on this... I don't think Americans will put up with even the little inconvenience of remembering not to shut it down cold. This car needs to appeal to more than just "enthusiasts" to succeed. I'm hoping they get it figured out, but recognize the history and design problem...

Please note that I haven't seen too many people flooded after a stall. The problem seems at its worst when the short move procedure is not followed, and then the car is allowed to sit for a while. If you are very careful, there's no reason to have to deal with a flooded car.

Anyone with a digital camera want to do a DIY for starting a flooded vehicle? I was looking at the spark plugs today and the top ones seem almost accessable...

Megareds:

First off - I love my RX-8 - first saw the RX-8 at the Detroit Motorshow in January 2002 - first sat in it during the 2003 show. Get it this December - an insane purchase given my 3 sports cars and a sedan - just for me. Rest of my cars are for family use.

Wife plans on burying me in RX-8 - and according to her - pointing not skyward but straight down.

Second - I'm already hoping for a convertible RX - either RX-8 or new RX-7/9 in a couple of years. Love to see a rotary Miata as an separate model.

Third - the RX-8 has to be a run away success - it's the world's only production rotary car. It must cost Mazda a mint to support it. Mazda has walked away from the US market once in 1995 - almost a decade no rotary engined car in the US !!!

Fourth - the American public runs on pure Id. There are many sports cars to choose from - not subject to any special running procedures. Not unique as in the RX-8 IMHO - but they are the competition.

Fifth - Mazda USA should address flooding more openly - not put the information out as a comment or two by the sales guy as he hands you the keys. The Stay Move Protocol should be front and center - not in a Tips brochure AND the de-flooding procedure should be tied to it directly. Heck - the Short Move Procedure is due to engine wear according to the Tips brochure - not flood prevention !!!

Finally - 99% of all flooding is due to short cold moves - not stalling - although the position of reverse tends to encourage you to put in 6th at times.

I seems to me that an aggresive program by Mazda to address this issue would stop it in it's tracks. Waiting for Consumer Reports to get on the case - or the federal safety people - would be unwise for Mazda. Just ask Ford and Firestone how that works out.

John

Originally posted by nt5k
Well, this would only happen if the car decides that the engine is too cold.

Or you can turn off the car cold and have flooded car in your garage.. I don't see the garage issue either, if you park head first (which you should do anyway to keep exahsut fumes out of your house when you turn the car on). Just keep the garage door open till the car shuts off..

I'm not even sure how to respond to that...because it is, perhaps, one of the craziest things I've ever heard. No offense, of course.

The direction in which your car is parked in a garage will have little to no effect on the amount of carbon monoxide that gets into the garage or esapes into your house. Unless your garage is of warehouse proportions (mine is not) it won't make a bit of difference. Aside from the carbon monoxide issue, I don't like the idea of leaving a running vehicle unattended for lengthy periods. Too many things can go wrong. An owner shouldn't have to leave a car running unattended anywhere, especially in a garage. And, an owner shouldn't have to leave their garage door open to the elements because of an engineering issue in a modern car. If I have to move a car out of the garage to get something large out of my garage in the middle of winter, the last thing I want to do is leave my garage door open, or my car running in my garage for 15 minutes while my car warms up. (Btw, no one has mentioned that it is also bad practice to let your engine reach temperature by merely sitting and idling for 15 minutes. It's much better on the engine and exhaust to warm up the car by driving it lightly.)

I'm also tired of hearing people say that "every car can flood - it's not just the rotary". My house can also be hit by a meteor today. Hey, it's happened to plenty of people and I'm glad I have insurance on my house, but odds are in my favor that it won't happen. Face it folks, people on the "Camry" message boards aren't having this discussion. Fact: I can move any of my cars in and out of my garage without warming them up and not worry whether they will restart. Would I make a habit of it? No. The argument that it's not good practice to do this misses its mark. It's also not a good idea to leave your lights on without the car running. Most modern car batteries can handle it if it you happen to run into a store, have a brain fart and forget to shut the lights off.

I'm sure certain people driving their RX8s in NYC would just love having their cars sit on 125th Street running...sure...it's safe...really.

-Eric

Then don't buy one..

Originally posted by nt5k
Then don't buy one..

And yet another thoughtless remark...

As others on the board are able to understand, regardless of how much some people (e.g., enthusiasts) love the RX8 (and I'd consider myself one...as I'm still considering a purchase despite the whole 'flooding' issue), in 2004, the general public expects a $30K car to start when they turn the key. They expect to be able to move it in and out of a garage at will, leave it with a valet, and generally abuse it for 75-100K miles. The fact that you have to deviate from what I'll call "standard operating procedure" with the RX8 won't be perceived as a plus...and without the support (read: finances) of the general public, Mazda won't be able to support its rotary program for mass consumption.

People can keep their heads in the sand as long as they'd like...unfortunately, it will do nothing to change public perception.

Unfortunately, too many enthusiasts are blind to the faults of their own cars. I make excuses all of the time for the quirks of my favorite cars...but what may be a quirk to me may not be acceptable to others. The thinking typically goes..."So, the electronics [or substitute another problem, like 'flooding'] in my radio may go screwy every now and then? Whatever, I'll live with it...it's still a TT [or substitute another car, like an RX8]." Besides, a radio losing its way once a year (if ever) is one thing, but a car not starting is entirely another.

-Eric

I don't see why it's so thoughtless. You're obviously concerned with the flooding 'issue'. So just wait until a fix is implemented before buying one..

Otherwise you're just beating a dead horse..

People just need to realize that you are buying an unconventional engine and that it may need some unconventional treatment. To all of those that say crap like it "shouldn't happen to a modern engine on the market today" then the answer is plain and simple. Find a way to fix it yourself or deal with it. Bitching and moaning won't change anything. If you learn how to avoid the situation in the first place then you won't have a problem. My 1st gen RX-7 will flood every time for ANYONE else trying to start it. I know how to do it though so it doesn't ever happen to me. What should or could happen is irrelevant once it does happen. Saying "don't buy one" may or may not be a thoughtless remark but it is a realistic one if people can't accept the fact that the RX-8 a car with an entirely different type of engine than every single other new car for sale out there on the road today. Sometimes being harsh and blatant is the only way to get the point across. Maybe we shouldn't expect an engine to do this today. But some of them do. There's only a couple of choices. Don't own one, fix the issue yourself, learn how to avoid it, bitch and moan senselessly forever. I hate to be harsh and am not attacking anyone (although I fully expect some close minded person in denial to attack me for this!) but these are the only realistic options. The rotary has been more prone to flooding than the average piston engine for over 40 years. It doesn't mean that it neccessarily will or won't flood though. Basically the Renesis as much as some hate to admit it, isn't really that different from every previous rotary. The issue will probably always be there in some limited way. It's a different engine. Is it really so unreasonable to think that it may in fact need some slightly different treatment? No!

Good post rotarygod. AMEN. 'nuff said

hahaha...........man...people will complain and complain about the same thing, until they hear the answer they want. It isn't going to happen. This flooding issue is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo overated. It's not the apocolypse. If it happens once....you should have the common sense to prevent it from happening ever again. No big deal. Now...I'm ready to hear every "what if" scenario out there. You aren't going to get a helpful answer from me....

If anyone happened to be concerned about my FD situation, its all better. I couldn't get the car to start because of kill switches I installed for my dry cell battery. Apparently all of the cranking required to get it going, would trip the switches, which are in essence breakers. But hooked up to a battery charger, the breaker held and the car finally started, cleared the gas and runs well.
That being said, no one has a right to tell me what is an overrated issue for a new 30K car. I was okay with the FD flooding because it is a 10+ year old car and has a different purpose for me. But the 8 flooding would really piss me off.
BTW, especially for this application, turbo timers are not dangerous for a garage and yes you can leave your car run for the 30 seconds on the streets of any city. See, a turbo timer doesn't operate when the e-brake is down, so when you pull your warm 8 into a garage, you leave the ebrake down and the car shuts right off. It is simple, and I am not going into this deeply again. I have two turbo vehicles both with turbo timers and these devices are simple and safe.

The direction in which your car is parked in a garage will have little to no effect on the amount of carbon monoxide that gets into the garage or esapes into your house. Unless your garage is of warehouse proportions (mine is not) it won't make a bit of difference. Aside from the carbon monoxide issue, I don't like the idea of leaving a running vehicle unattended for lengthy periods. Too many things can go wrong. An owner shouldn't have to leave a car running unattended anywhere, especially in a garage. And, an owner shouldn't have to leave their garage door open to the elements because of an engineering issue in a modern car. If I have to move a car out of the garage to get something large out of my garage in the middle of winter, the last thing I want to do is leave my garage door open, or my car running in my garage for 15 minutes while my car warms up. (Btw, no one has mentioned that it is also bad practice to let your engine reach temperature by merely sitting and idling for 15 minutes. It's much better on the engine and exhaust to warm up the car by driving it lightly.)


I'm sorry, but you're just wrong. You HAVE heard of a turbo timer? You know what that's for right? Well that's running ona modern high tech and expensive engine. Treating your turbo like shit over time will result in turbo failure, and the car will run like shit. Diesel engines are better left on than shut off and restarted after a short period of time.... Hmm it sounds like other "modern" engines have this problem as well in this day and age.

Let's make a few things clear...

1) I can't speak for others, but I wasn't complaining, bitching or moaning about the flooding issue. Dismissing it, however, as a non-issue misses the point since the public won't buy a car that it perceives as unreliable. A car that won't start is a car the public will perceive as unreliable. No cars sales = no RX8. In my humble opinion, that's a bad thing...but hey, I'm just bitching and moaning, right?

2) I'm very familiar with turbo timers. And the purpose of a turbo timer has NOTHING to do with warming the car up...in fact, it's just the opposite. The point is to cool it down. Regardless, name a modern production car equipped with one straight from the factory? Again, enthusiast vs. public. Take a public poll and ask them about a turbo timer and watch the curious looks on their faces. What's acceptable to you and I as enthusiasts...things we'd live with because we love our cars so much...don't work with the general public. As an owner of a turbodriven car, I typically let my car idle before shutting it down to do let the turbo circulate and cool, but I also know most owners probably don't. Great for me and whomever buys the car from me. Have you taken a look at most of the other cars on the road? Ever notice that yours is a little cleaner? More cared for? Does yours have a name? Like I said previously, the American public wants a car to abuse, whether it's a minivan, a sedan, or a sports car. They want a car that will last them X years without fail. They don't want to think about anything but getting it gas. Most don't even car about oil...you think I'm putty Jiffy Lube anything in my cars? (No offense to Jiffy Lube...I guess it's better than nothing.) The public though...they're not like us...but they're the ones buying cars and keeping the ones we love in production. Of all of the S2K, Z4, Boxster or even Miata owners in the world, have many do you think have ever seen, been to or even heard of an SCCA event? I'd put my savings on a very small number/percent of owners....yet they all own a sports car.

Hey, live with your head in the sand if you want. Life might even be easier to deal with there. I just hope Mazda doesn't lose sight of the public.

"Nuff' said"

-Eric

P.S. Most modern turbodriven cars are also equipped with auxiliary fans to assist cooling after the car's been shut off. Why? To deal with the daily abuse it will see from most owners who wouldn't ever buy a car equipped with a turbo timer.

Let's make a few things clear...

1) I can't speak for others, but I wasn't complaining, bitching or moaning about the flooding issue. Dismissing it, however, as a non-issue misses the point since the public won't buy a car that it perceives as unreliable. A car that won't start is a car the public will perceive as unreliable. No cars sales = no RX8. In my humble opinion, that's a bad thing...but hey, I'm just bitching and moaning, right?

Wasn't me that said it... I think flooding sucks, but then again if I want to be different it sometimes comes at some small cost. American musclecar torque... bad gas mileage and likely until the 2005 mustang and C5 vette... really crummy quality cars (overal). If you wanted German... they are money pits... not as bad as italian (nothing is that bad except Renault). Well BMW was really bad during the 80's, and now they are decent, but hell... the dealer want to charge something like $2000 for a new radiator?! The car is a late 90's model. IN another thread you can hear the stories about Porsche from owners. These are all mainstream and most of them people would call "reliable." But the truth is as a daily driver they are expensive to keep and quirky. Don't think the public won't buy something they perceive to have some intrinsic value. As we say in IT... "user education."


2) I'm very familiar with turbo timers. And the purpose of a turbo timer has NOTHING to do with warming the car up...in fact, it's just the opposite. The point is to cool it down. Regardless, name a modern production car equipped with one straight from the factory? Again, enthusiast vs. public. Take a public poll and ask them about a turbo timer and watch the curious looks on their faces. What's acceptable to you and I as enthusiasts...things we'd live with because we love our cars so much...don't work with the general public. As an owner of a turbodriven car, I typically let my car idle before shutting it down to do let the turbo circulate and cool, but I also know most owners probably don't. Great for me and whomever buys the car from me. Have you taken a look at most of the other cars on the road? Ever notice that yours is a little cleaner? More cared for? Does yours have a name? Like I said previously, the American public wants a car to abuse, whether it's a minivan, a sedan, or a sports car. They want a car that will last them X years without fail. They don't want to think about anything but getting it gas. Most don't even car about oil...you think I'm putty Jiffy Lube anything in my cars? (No offense to Jiffy Lube...I guess it's better than nothing.) The public though...they're not like us...but they're the ones buying cars and keeping the ones we love in production. Of all of the S2K, Z4, Boxster or even Miata owners in the world, have many do you think have ever seen, been to or even heard of an SCCA event? I'd put my savings on a very small number/percent of owners....yet they all own a sports car.

You sound like you know law... which means you should know logic. Why did you miss the connection? Wamring Vs cooling is of absolutely no importance here. What is is the fact that the device keeps your engine running after you've shut down the car. What is important is that there is a necessity to do something extra to preserve the life of the engine of your car. It's not just "plug and play." Maybe few Americans usse turbo timers, but few cars sold in America have turbos. If you look at Japan and Europe, there are many cars with turbos... sports cars and turbo diesels (which you said nothing about).

You want the general public to do something... they teach them. It of course costs... but hey. In general since Mazda is a Japanese nameplate, people will expect Toyota-like levels of quality and reliablity. And yes the 3, 6 and MPV will deliver on this pretty well, but the 8 and 7 are different beasts. As we all know the rotary is a different engine and you have to educate the pubic about it... its benefits and even the extra work it takes to maintain it. Given a well-planned, executed and funded campaign plus some time... people will pick the rotary engined cars for uniqueness and maybe one day because it is hydrogen powered... thus more range than electric (as an example).

Originally posted by Japan8

You want the general public to do something... they teach them. It of course costs... but hey. In general since Mazda is a Japanese nameplate, people will expect Toyota-like levels of quality and reliablity. And yes the 3, 6 and MPV will deliver on this pretty well, but the 8 and 7 are different beasts. As we all know the rotary is a different engine and you have to educate the pubic about it... its benefits and even the extra work it takes to maintain it. Given a well-planned, executed and funded campaign plus some time... people will pick the rotary engined cars for uniqueness and maybe one day because it is hydrogen powered... thus more range than electric (as an example).

Great points. It seems to me that Mazda should definitely invest in a better user-orientation experience for the RX-8 buyers. Advice from the dealers seems to be all over the map. The various guides have bits of information, but nothing to give someone a comprehensive idea of what's going on. As someone mentioned, the short-trip procedure is advised on the basis of engine wear, not flooding. Personally, I was advised that the engine uses oil, and "don't baby it". All well and good but without the education I've received here I would be raising the roof if a flood ever disabled the vehicle. But knowing the issues beforehand has changed my perspective and would do the same for most buyers. This is the difference between loving a car along with its quirks or loving it until you discover the quirks by way of being stranded. Needing a base of enthusiasts isnt then a problem. It's how you create the enthusiasts.

I think this discussion has just come up with a possible solution that Mazda (or an enterprising third party vendor) could "sell".

The turbo timer is the right technology, just backwards. Whether built in by Mazda or as an add-on, the Rotory Anti-Flood Timer (RAFT) would either keep track of how long the engine has run or, better yet, the temperature! If the calibrated engine run time was too short or the temperature was below the calibrated value, a flashing light saying "controlled shutdown" would alert the driver that the engine would remain on unit the time/temp was reached. Problem solved.

The best part is how you all figured out how to explain it. The marketing people could have a great time, extending the mystique of the rotory and introducing the RAFT feature!

The turbo and diesel engine control devices seem to be accepted as necessary for their respective technologies. Marketing could explain how this new RAft device is the latest improvement/advancement of the Renesis technology. Yes, its BS, but isn't that what marketing is all about!

Seriously, it would be a piece of cake for Greddy or Canzoomer to produce such a device, optimized for the cold start flooding issue.

Hey, maybe we should start a naming contest!

Originally posted by Japan8
But the truth is as a daily driver they are expensive to keep and quirky. Don't think the public won't buy something they perceive to have some intrinsic value. As we say in IT... "user education."

First of all, remedying a quirky ownership issue during the first 3-4 years of ownership for most any modern vehicle will not cost the owner a dime since those issues will likely fall under the vehicle's general warranty. The propensity of a car to require fixing is what will determine whether the general public keeps the car beyond the expiration of those warranties. If a turbo blows in year 2, you might be less likely to retain the car if you know the next time it goes you're going to be footing the bill.

Second, having owned BMWs, Audis, Saabs, and Volvos I find your comments about costs somewhat outdated and uninformed. 1984 was 20 years ago. All of the above manufactuers actually offer free scheduled maintenance for the first several years of ownership (which for several manufacturers actually includes replacement of wear and tear items as well), and replacement parts are typically not that expensive beyond the warranty period, until you get into repairs that tend to be expensive for any car. And, yes, an extensive repair job on a $100K twin turbo Porsche is definitely going to cost a great deal more than repairs on a $15K Chevy Cavalier. Aside from the costs of extended ownership beyond 5-6 years, what ARE uninformly expensive, however, are labor costs...but those outrageous fees run the spectrum from Chevy to Porsche.


Originally posted by Japan8
You sound like you know law... which means you should know logic. Why did you miss the connection? Wamring Vs cooling is of absolutely no importance here. What is is the fact that the device keeps your engine running after you've shut down the car. What is important is that there is a necessity to do something extra to preserve the life of the engine of your car. It's not just "plug and play." Maybe few Americans usse turbo timers, but few cars sold in America have turbos. If you look at Japan and Europe, there are many cars with turbos... sports cars and turbo diesels (which you said nothing about).

You want the general public to do something... they teach them. It of course costs... but hey. In general since Mazda is a Japanese nameplate, people will expect Toyota-like levels of quality and reliablity. And yes the 3, 6 and MPV will deliver on this pretty well, but the 8 and 7 are different beasts. As we all know the rotary is a different engine and you have to educate the pubic about it... its benefits and even the extra work it takes to maintain it. Given a well-planned, executed and funded campaign plus some time... people will pick the rotary engined cars for uniqueness and maybe one day because it is hydrogen powered... thus more range than electric (as an example).[/B]

1) Thanks, you just proved my point. And, your response is way off mark...since my point was merely that turbodriven cars don't come with turbotimers from the manufacturer. It's your job to educate yourself and figure out why. Try rereading some of my previous posts for a few hints.
2) Every K-Car built by Chrysler in the '80s was equipped with a small turbo. Turbo doesn't necessarily equate to 'speed' or 'exotic'. Toyotas, Mazdas and many other '80s car were also equipped with turbos...
3) Not many modern cars in the US are equipped with turbos? Oh, okay...quickly off the top of my head (and without getting into exotics or spending too much time)...

Audi TT 180 & 225
Audi A4 1.8T
Audi A6 2.7T

BMW M5 ('05-'06)

Chrylser PT Cruiser ('04 GT Convertible model)

Dodge Neon SRT-4

Subaru Forester XT
Subaru Impreza WRX and STi
Subaru Baja Turbo

Mitsubishi Lancer Evo

Saab 9-3
Saab 9-5

Volkswagen Golf 1.8T, GTI, R32
Volkswagen Passat 1.8T
Volkswagen New Beetle Turbo

Volvo S40 2.5T ('05 model)
Volvo V50 2.5T ('05 model)
Volvo S60 2.5T & R
Volvo V70 2.5T and R
Volvo S80 T6
Volvo XC90 2.5T and T6

And, I won't get into all of the supercharged cars from Mercedes (including its AMG models), Ford, MINI, etc.

Many cars in the US ARE equipped with turbos...none with turbotimers from the factory, and relatively few with aftermarket turbotimers. This subject is really beginning to bore me...

-Eric

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sue Esponte
[B]And yet another thoughtless remark...

As others on the board are able to understand, regardless of how much some people (e.g., enthusiasts) love the RX8 (and I'd consider myself one...as I'm still considering a purchase despite the whole 'flooding' issue), in 2004, the general public expects a $30K car to start when they turn the key. They expect to be able to move it in and out of a garage at will, leave it with a valet, and generally abuse it for 75-100K miles. The fact that you have to deviate from what I'll call "standard operating procedure" with the RX8 won't be perceived as a plus...and without the support (read: finances) of the general public, Mazda won't be able to support its rotary program for mass consumption.

People can keep their heads in the sand as long as they'd like...unfortunately, it will do nothing to change public perception.(UNQUOTE)




I personnally don't care what general public piston heads think or expect. It's a rotory engine. It's different and that's why I bought it. I'm more than happy to see the general Joe Public stay away from this car. It's not within their scope of understanding.
Rotory engines are really tough and love to be driven hard. It's 160k engine. People with overconcerns about flooding should stick with their boring Honda Accords or whatevers. If lack of public support stops production then I cherish mine that much more as different and priceless. I'll keep it forever.
Besides, other Mazda main stream car sales should keep the rotory afloat. It's a showcase model. I predict the 8 will be around a long long time.

Flooding isnt unique to the 8, 7 or cheap cars.

Many Jag XJ owners have the same problems.

[

Second, having owned BMWs, Audis, Saabs, and Volvos I find your comments about costs somewhat outdated and uninformed. 1984 was 20 years ago. All of the above manufactuers actually offer free scheduled maintenance for the first several years of ownership (which for several manufacturers actually includes replacement of wear and tear items as well), and replacement parts are typically not that expensive beyond the warranty period, until you get into repairs that tend to be expensive for any car. And, yes, an extensive repair job on a $100K twin turbo Porsche is definitely going to cost a great deal more than repairs on a $15K Chevy Cavalier. Aside from the costs of extended ownership beyond 5-6 years, what ARE uninformly expensive, however, are labor costs...but those outrageous fees run the spectrum from Chevy to Porsche.


You can think whatever you want, it doesn't change the fact that a BMW dealer in Seattle, Washington tried to charge my aunt almost $2,000 for a new radiator (labor is included) for her '96(? the last year before the major body change) BMW 328. She ended up paying $1100 to have BMW specialists that race, etc. do the job.

The 3-series is not the Porsche 911 Turbo of the BMW line... it's not the expensive nor exotic. I think it's fair to use it here.


1) Thanks, you just proved my point. And, your response is way off mark...since my point was merely that turbodriven cars don't come with turbotimers from the manufacturer. It's your job to educate yourself and figure out why. Try rereading some of my previous posts for a few hints.

You have a point there, but you can get them from as a dealer install option here. And the fact that such seemingly large number of users have one suggests that there is some acceptance of using the device.


2) Every K-Car built by Chrysler in the '80s was equipped with a small turbo. Turbo doesn't necessarily equate to 'speed' or 'exotic'. Toyotas, Mazdas and many other '80s car were also equipped with turbos...
3) Not many modern cars in the US are equipped with turbos? Oh, okay...quickly off the top of my head (and without getting into exotics or spending too much time)...

Audi TT 180 & 225
Audi A4 1.8T
Audi A6 2.7T

BMW M5 ('05-'06)
..."

Did I say all cars sold in the US? if I did I apologize... I was refering to US Uautomarkers. Although... are there THAT many (relative to the number of different models made) turbo cars in the US market?


You mentioned that "relatively few with aftermarket turbotimers." There are some that come equipped? And even if none come equipped... why can't use this system on rotaries? have YOU surveyed people to see what they thought AFTER being fully educated in a positive way about the rotary and the timer? Your opinion is "no way", but maybe with education the market feels a bit different than you...?

And you still (again) haven't said a word about diesel. It may not be a big deal in the US yet, but it is in Japan and Europe... the day when the US govt. tries to force it upon us may come.

This may work. But Microsoft would end up designing the firmware for the device and it would just stay on all the time saying "controlled shutdown" until the car runs out of gas, or you pull the battery.

Originally posted by Charles Cope
I think this discussion has just come up with a possible solution that Mazda (or an enterprising third party vendor) could "sell".

The turbo timer is the right technology, just backwards. Whether built in by Mazda or as an add-on, the Rotory Anti-Flood Timer (RAFT) would either keep track of how long the engine has run or, better yet, the temperature! If the calibrated engine run time was too short or the temperature was below the calibrated value, a flashing light saying "controlled shutdown" would alert the driver that the engine would remain on unit the time/temp was reached. Problem solved.

The best part is how you all figured out how to explain it. The marketing people could have a great time, extending the mystique of the rotory and introducing the RAFT feature!

The turbo and diesel engine control devices seem to be accepted as necessary for their respective technologies. Marketing could explain how this new RAft device is the latest improvement/advancement of the Renesis technology. Yes, its BS, but isn't that what marketing is all about!

Seriously, it would be a piece of cake for Greddy or Canzoomer to produce such a device, optimized for the cold start flooding issue.

Hey, maybe we should start a naming contest!

Originally posted by Japan8
You can think whatever you want, it doesn't change the fact that a BMW dealer in Seattle, Washington tried to charge my aunt almost $2,000 for a new radiator (labor is included) for her '96(? the last year before the major body change) BMW 328. She ended up paying $1100 to have BMW specialists that race, etc. do the job.

Once again you proved my point. Did one dealer try to take advantage of your aunt? Sounds like it. There are a lot of bad dealers (of any make) out there. And, you proved that you can find a reasonable mechanic for a BMW. Lesson: shop around.

Originally posted by Japan8
And the fact that such seemingly large number of users have one suggests that there is some acceptance of using the device.

I know very few people who actually use turbo timers, and those who do are not "casual owners". I'd argue that those who do are likely enthusiasts.

Originally posted by Japan8
Although... are there THAT many (relative to the number of different models made) turbo cars in the US market?

The majority of the cars I listed (with some noted exceptions, e.g., Lancer Evo) are volume cars for those manufacturers. VW is nothing without its Golf/Jetta, Audi nothing without the sale of its A4, etc.

Originally posted by Japan8
You mentioned that "relatively few with aftermarket turbotimers." There are some that come equipped?

Read what I wrote. I said that none are equipped from the factory and relatively few with aftermarket turbotimers. Relative to total sales, few people actually equip their cars with an aftermarket turbotimer.

Originally posted by Japan8 And even if none come equipped... why can't use this system on rotaries? have YOU surveyed people to see what they thought AFTER being fully educated in a positive way about the rotary and the timer? Your opinion is "no way", but maybe with education the market feels a bit different than you...?

I never said that a turbotimer couldn't be used on a rotary. Again, please read what I wrote. I'm not even sure how you read that from any of my posts. My only comment about a turbotimer or any equipment that required a mass produced car to continue running after it was effectively "shut off" will not be perceived as a benefit by the public. It would also be, contrary to some belief, a legal nightmare. I can see the headlines now. 60 Minutes would love it...."Child wanders into garage with car running on rotary timer; Dies of CO poisoning". You think unintended acceleration (something that never happened but almost put Audi out of business in the US) was a good story? Like I've said over and over and over...the public wants to drive cars it doesn't have to think about; cars they can abuse and mistreat for a lot of miles and years. They don't want "different". If they did, Alfa Romeo would still be a concern in the US. After all, they were just "quirky" Italian cars. And, like it or not, Mazda DOES roll up to Ford in the control chain. If Ford doesn't like what it sees coming out of the RX8 and can't justify it, Mazda could very well be selling a Mustang based sports car.

You also missed the point that, as an enthusiast, I'm someone who's more likely to use a turbotimer or similar product and not question the need. The general public won't.

Originally posted by Japan8 And you still (again) haven't said a word about diesel. It may not be a big deal in the US yet, but it is in Japan and Europe... the day when the US govt. tries to force it upon us may come.[/B]

There's nothing on which to comment. Diesel engines, however improved they may be over older models are still not a concern in the US and Mazda needs the US market in order to compete globally. The US' perception of diesel fuel still harkens back to the dirty, noisy engines equipped on some '70s Mercedes and other Euro-models. However inaccurate that perception might be, it's a critical concern to manufacturers. Alternate fuel vehicles are in our future but ones based on fossil fuels won't cut it for the long run. Mazda's not currently working on a diesel vehicle and if there is ever a diesel Mazda in the US it will likely be run on a different form of diesel fuel (e.g. vegetable based or "biodiesel"). But this is a different topic entirely.

Originally posted by NAVILESRX8
<snip>This flooding issue is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo overated. It's not the apocolypse. </snip>

You generally wouldn't think its a big deal. Luckily I stalled and flooded before I entered cross traffic. Had I entered cross traffic it quite possibly could have been the apocolypse for me :)

Unlike my FC the 8s flooding episodes are completely unpredicatable and seemed to be without cause.

Originally posted by Artifex
Unlike my FC the 8s flooding episodes are completely unpredicatable and seemed to be without cause.

Back to my original question... are the symptoms the same? Does the engine RPM race (no compression)?

Did you have it towed or were you able to get it started again by yourself?

Originally posted by Charles Cope
Back to my original question... are the symptoms the same? Does the engine RPM race (no compression)?

Did you have it towed or were you able to get it started again by yourself?


For me the symptoms are not the same, I didn't get the rpm play you would expect. I know what you mean here, the T2 would bounce pretty high when it flooded. And finally the car had to be towed.

The differences in behavior is what makes me believe flooding on the 8 is a compound issue. I posted in another thread that after checking the plugs one night I found liquid oil completely filling the crown of the plugs such that no spark would be possible until the motor purged that oil.

Originally posted by Artifex
after checking the plugs one night I found liquid oil completely filling the crown of the plugs such that no spark would be possible until the motor purged that oil.

I'm curious as to why you were unable to get the car started if you had the ability to remove the plugs. I was under the impression that if I had been competent enought to remove the plugs when my car flooded, I could have cleaned them, reinstalled them and the car would then have started... at least after a bit of time for the chambers to dry. Am I right about that?

Her is one method how you can prevent rotary engines from flooding and I actually suggest this method to everyone
who get already paranoia with this flooding issue.
This modification have being used already on many rx7 cars with
success.
Add one switch to the dash which control the fuel pump energy
When you shut off the engine turn off the fuelpump and wait that the engine died. turn off ignation after.When you start turn on fuelpump to start.this is also additional security for your car
and you will never have flooding again and cost are cheap.
When you get flooded becouse you stall your engine.
You also get one secure way to cut off fuel instead off flooring the
pedal.
:)

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
I'm curious as to why you were unable to get the car started if you had the ability to remove the plugs. I was under the impression that if I had been competent enought to remove the plugs when my car flooded, I could have cleaned them, reinstalled them and the car would then have started... at least after a bit of time for the chambers to dry. Am I right about that?


GRRRR :) . The car did not stall at home and I do not carry my toolchest with me(shouldnt have to with a brand new car). I pulled the plugs two weeks after getting the car back from the dealer to answer another thread asking what kind of plugs the dealer replaced the originals with. The car was not flooded when I pulled the plugs. The point was that it was quite surpising to see that the normal state of the plugs is that they are covered in oil. Netiher of my past rx-7s ever looked like that.

So, just as a final consensus- turbo timer will or won't prevent flooding? I'd just like to know, as there are a lot of places where I park (frats, etc.) where my car might have to be moved a short distance, and am willing to pay for the peace of mind.

Originally posted by yoonie
So, just as a final consensus- turbo timer will or won't prevent flooding? I'd just like to know, as there are a lot of places where I park (frats, etc.) where my car might have to be moved a short distance, and am willing to pay for the peace of mind.

No it is worthless. If you move the car a short distance or stall it, the next time you try to start it floor it. It will still start from the residual fuel inside the engine even though no more is being added. When it does just take your foot off the gas and it will keep running. If the car doesn't just start up then take your foot off the gas so it does. This situation would only have meant that you probably wouldn't have flooded anyways.

This is far easier than spending money on a turbo timer, hooking it up, and having it do nothing. There are people on here that criticize this method because the manual states that flooring the pedal should only be done after it floods. It is a little late by then though. Last I heard people weren't listening to the manual in regards to using only factory Mazda parts (filters, exhausts, etc.) so why this method? Double standards and lack of rotary experience are the only explanation. The rotary is a different type of engine. Treat it differently.

I don't understand why if holding the pedal down (I'm guessing this diables the fuel pump) before starting the engine should help the flooding in most cases why Mazda didn't just implement this themselves. Couldn't they just put a monitor on the car and if it is shut down "cold" then perform this procedure automatically when it starts up next time?

Of course, thinking about it...maybe they did because I've noticed some "hesitant" starts and possibly the first couple cranks were with the fuel pump disabled and then since it still wasn't started the fuel pump was kicked on? Be cursious to see if the "hesitant" starts some people report are due to near flood conditions or to Mazda removing fuel delivery in anticipation of a possible flood condition.

As others on the board are able to understand, regardless of how much some people (e.g., enthusiasts) love the RX8 (and I'd consider myself one...as I'm still considering a purchase despite the whole 'flooding' issue), in 2004, the general public expects a $30K car to start when they turn the key. They expect to be able to move it in and out of a garage at will, leave it with a valet, and generally abuse it for 75-100K miles. The fact that you have to deviate from what I'll call "standard operating procedure" with the RX8 won't be perceived as a plus...and without the support (read: finances) of the general public, Mazda won't be able to support its rotary program for mass consumption.

As one of the average Joe, clueless about engines crowd, the quote above is dead on. The only reason I found this forum was because I know the engine is different, and I was concerned about what kind of problems it might have in the future. It's almost a shame too, because I really love the car - but at the same time, I want to be able to trust it. We live in an age of expected service. I pick up the phone, I always get a dial tone. I turn the key, my car always starts - regardless of how long the prior trip was. Sure, I know about the problem now. I know how to avoid it, but I don't WANT to have to think about warming up, etc... what if I forget, what if I stall, what if someone else is driving? It's one thing to require a user to maybe check the oil level more often, but requiring a special procedure just to move the car 30 feet is just not my idea of fun. I ALWAYS want my car to start. Being out somewhere and the car not starting would really stink. Stalling at a stop-light and the car not starting would REALLY REALLY stink. Worse yet, I'm afriad it will hurt the resale value on the car if I did get it, because I'm sure a problem like this will become well known on the car.

It's really too bad, because the RX8 has everything I'm looking for. But I'll probably end up with an admitedly boring Accord ccoupe instead. My current line of thought is that peace of mind that my car will always start is more important to me than true excitement over my car.

Anyways, I haven't made up my mind yet, it's the only concern I have, but definitely a major concern in my mind.

Just a little perspective from an "average joe public" guy.

Originally posted by Frogger

Anyways, I haven't made up my mind yet, it's the only concern I have, but definitely a major concern in my mind.

Just a little perspective from an "average joe public" guy.
I considered myself to be pretty much where you say you are now when I bought, Frogger. My mileage has been a bit disappointing (19mpg) and I've flooded and been towed once. My plan was to make the 8 my only ride and I thought I'd be sharing it occassionally with my wife, but it's not worked out that way... but mostly because I've discovered I really really like it and can't bear to commute the five miles with it back and forth to the train station where it will have to sit all day in the weather. I'm likely to try to keep a beater for that, which is expensive when insurance, etc. gets put into the mix.

Still, a few positives to put in the equation: (1) you won't find people as supportive or excited about their Accords, meaning your Honda will become boring to you pretty quickly. I think I'll be pretty enthusiastic about my RX-8 for quite a while, even though it has stranded me already - I've got well over 500 posts here on this board, and I think most of us feel the same way -- it's become a full blown hobby, which is big fun; (2) Mazda NA has been pretty good from my perspective - answering emails, letters, phone calls and trying to work on all issues. This may be standard for all car companies, I just don't know, but I've been pleased with them.

My only regret... I should have bought the MT. I thought the car would be a daily ride, and its become a weekend/road trip fun machine... a manual transmission would suit me better.

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
Mazda NA has been pretty good from my perspective - answering emails, letters, phone calls and trying to work on all issues. This may be standard for all car companies, I just don't know, but I've been pleased with them.

As I mentioned in my original post, I believe Mazda has to have a crew working on the problem. They have acknowledged it as a problem by covering it under warrenty. We can only hope that they can come up with a reasonable solution, now, for this problem that has been inherent to the rotary engine forever.

For everyone that has experienced flooding, make sure Mazda knows about it! If you are able to get your car re-started after a suspected flooding incident, report it, don't just bitch to yourself and write a note here! Think of it this way... if Mazda knows every VIN of every car that has been flooded, they may be able to make connections from the production records of the affected engines. Yes, I'm grasping, but if we can be part of the solution, lets do it!

Frogger - I can see your concern being an Average Joe Public guy. I’ve owned five Mazda rotaries and without hesitation I will be getting an RX-8. All of the issues I’ve seen on this board don’t bother me at all. Flooding has always been a known issue with rotaries. Mazda sold hundreds of thousands of RX's since the 1960’s. Difference now is this is the first new rotary car since the Internet has become popular and the flooding issue seems to be a shock to most new rotary people who then flood the Internet nonstop with “A new car that floods” rants. You will need to make somewhat of a lifestyle change - tipping valets a bit extra, finding a GOOD rotary specialist mechanic at Mazda, being aware of short trips, explaining the warm-up procedure to friends who drive it, etc. This may seem odd at first but after a while it isn’t a big deal.

Stalling at a stop-light and the car not starting would REALLY REALLY stink

Chances of this happening I’d say are slim and I haven’t seen many posts where this has happened. Of my five RX’s over a period of 10 years, my 88 convertible flooded once while at home. They never left me stranded. I severely abused my 81 and sold it with 153,000 miles on it. If it does flood, it most likely will be in your driveway.

But I'll probably end up with an admitedly boring Accord ccoupe instead

I have owned a couple of Accords. They are reliable and near indestructible. And driving them is as exciting as watching grass grow. You won’t get people in other Accords waving at you. For quality, I consider Mazdas to be on par with Hondas.

Anyways, I haven't made up my mind yet, it's the only concern I have, but definitely a major concern in my mind.

MEGAREDS did a good job of putting it perspective when he said “it's become a full blown hobby, which is big fun”. Give the 8 a try. If it doesn’t work out the way you hoped, what do you have to lose? Simply sell it or trade it for an Accord.

If it does flood, it most likely will be in your driveway.

That's actually kind of reassuring. I've also been hearing on the Tech Garage forum that the "L" flash goes a long way to reduce flooding.

I completely agree with you on the Accord. I think it's kind of boring too. Maybe I'll just go with the RX8, and you are right that if it gives me trouble I can always sell it. Who knows, maybe it will become a hobby like it is for you guys. :)

One thing I really liked about the RX8 when test driving it, was that it was so EASY to drive! I've never had a performance car, and was worried I'd mess up the shifting etc... But it shifted so smoothly and was very willing no matter what the RPMs were. I've never owned a MT yet either, so this car seems like a good one to start out with. (Although I can drive them, but I'm not an expert, just drove friends cars and stuff) I also drove the Mercedes Benz C class coupe, and I hated the shifter on that thing! I almost had to fight with it to get it in gear, whereas with the RX8 it just smoothly went where I wanted it to.

Originally posted by Frogger
That's actually kind of reassuring. I've also been hearing on the Tech Garage forum that the "L" flash goes a long way to reduce flooding.

I completely agree with you on the Accord. I think it's kind of boring too. I almost had to fight with it to get it in gear, whereas with the RX8 it just smoothly went where I wanted it to.

I agree Frogger! I still haven't test driven the RX8 yet,
Mazda is aware of the flooding problem with these updates.
I didn't have much worries about flooding the engine, due to
having driven a Gen 2 RX7, even though it was a short time
(ex's car, 5 months) but heard the gear shifting on the 8 is
incredible, close to a miata's! IMO, if you want to learn stick,
thats the car to learn, I did :) so moving from that to a Suzuki
Aerio was a BIG difference! I have read the posts from several
of you, and one I am totally in agreement is education on the
rotary.

I think back if I didnt know anything about rotaries, I wouldnt
consider the 8.. with us newbies, education is the key, and this
site does the trick, but with John Public, how many people actually
research something? Mazda should definitely educate their future
customers, for the fact if John Public floods, they want to talk to
the DLR/Mazda for the solution. Just my 2 cents.

Get flood insurance....