Well----after a lot of consideration I have decided to make the jump. After 6 yrs of hpde's in this car i am going to get into Time Trials with NASA South east region.
Great bunch of guys and a well run program.
With my power output and mods, +car weight it looks like I will be in the TTB class.
Some fast and well driven cars in that class. ZR-1"s Porsche 993's, the ever present E 36 BMW M3, Lotus (non boosted), S2000"s with mods etc.
My wgt/hp ratio has to be no less than about a 10.6/1.
I will not be doing this until the fall season (gets HOT in the SE and the car can handle it--the driver doesnt want too!)
I will not be trying to win every event, but I will be competitive.
Updates to follow!

Awesome OD! Best of luck to you and keep us posted. Wish i was closer, I'd come down to cheer you on. I'll surely follow the thread though!

thanks dude---i think i will be the 1st FI rx8 in actual competition?
TT is competition:)
OD

thanks dude---i think i will be the 1st FI rx8 in actual competition?
TT is competition:)
OD

You mean in your region or in general? :suspect:

How heavily modified are the E36 M3s? I just came from a lightly modified one and the RX-8 put in better lap times my first day out. Other M3s would pull on me a bit in the straight, but the RX-8 cornered better. I wasn't even totally used to it that first day. (didn't have the balls to really trust it - turn 2 at brainerd is a 115 mph corner according to my old M3s speedo)

Great stuff OD . eep us updated with your progress .


And to think you were ready to ditch the 8 not that long ago ....

LoL B--I know due!

MM yep--speaking of the SE region.
Do you know of anyone running a boosted 8 in competition elsewhere?

E 46 M3's in this area are usually very well prepped --with full cages etc.

TTB records in the SE are a 1:37 at Road Atlanta and a 1:19 at Roebling Road for example
both by the BMW's.
I did run a 1:22--1:23 on 2 1/2 yr old nittos and a 1.5 camber all the way around alignment. i also limited my rpms to 7.2K
So I may be competitive with a little more prep:)

LoL B--I know due!

MM yep--speaking of the SE region.
Do you know of anyone running a boosted 8 in competition elsewhere?


Yep, right here in Phoenix.

LoL B--I know due!

MM yep--speaking of the SE region.
Do you know of anyone running a boosted 8 in competition elsewhere?

E 46 M3's in this area are usually very well prepped --with full cages etc.

TTB records in the SE are a 1:37 at Road Atlanta and a 1:19 at Roebling Road for example
both by the BMW's.
I did run a 1:22--1:23 on 2 1/2 yr old nittos and a 1.5 camber all the way around alignment. i also limited my rpms to 7.2K
So I may be competitive with a little more prep:)

shifting at what now??

:)

and good for you. just wish it was in my region.. would love to drive less and watch more..

beer :beer:

Ah Ha Flash --i suspected that would be the region that would be running one. Sweet! TTB also?

Scott---been shifting at 7.2K at times and 6.8K at others --remember a road course it not all about power--more about smoothest and power. Think about it?
i am going to do a more proper tire diameter/gearing analysis before that actual TT participation begins.
OD has some more ticks in his bag:)

Subscribed Denny, this is interesting!

Scott---been shifting at 7.2K at times and 6.8K at others --:)

methinks that is too early , would shift at 7.6- 8k if i were you ....

you have to had been there:)
But in all fairness--to go faster I do need to wind it out a little more but it will not go to 8K.
OD

/\ sounds like a plan .
I think max. out your SC rpm at whatever engine rpm you decide is your redline :dunno:

But in all fairness--to go faster I do need to wind it out a little more but it will not go to 8K.
Please explain...

remember a road course it not all about power--more about smoothest and power.

I wish that were true, but most of the big road courses have considerably long straights.
FIR main has a 1/2 mile straight. PIR has two 1/4 mile straights tied by a NASCAR oval.
Speeds are well into the triple digits at the ends of those straights.
Fontana and both Vegas tracks are similar.

The 1/2 mile straight at FIR is honestly a PITA. I spend the whole time fighting with more powerful cars that only hold up traffic in the back half.

That's probably why FIR west is my favorite track. A 1/4 mile straight and twisty turns are all you have. Power doesn't do anything except make it easier to play in the sand.

Agree -- different characteristics of your car play stronger to certain track designs.
The tracks i have ran and will be running are pretty fast tracks with good twisties and hard braking zones thrown in.
Road Atlanta has a long back straight, couple good uphill turns (power sure helps there) etc, Roebling Road in savannah area has a long front straight also. These tracks have a higher top speed than some others.
CMP--i have not ran--but a lot of my club friends have.-- It is a slower top speed track.
Barber--slower top speed track also-- i dont like that track. Love the grounds--hate the track design.

Routinely see 130+ speeds on RA and RR ( i have been holding back a little so I have only been seeing 130-132 mph true speed).
Braking is very important on a high speed road track and the 8 usually shines here. On tracks that you have to hard brake from 130+ our brakes start giving up some weaknesses. None that cant be fixed.

One trick about road racing is getting the gearing as dialed in as you can to minimize shifting . Every shift is loosing time no matter the who the driver is or what gearbox is being used. So I may end up with different sets of wheels/tires for different tracks. Dont know yet--gearing/power curve analysis continues.
I have work to do! Excitement is back:)
Plus I have to make a living-----why is that?
OD

thanks dude---i think i will be the 1st FI rx8 in actual competition?
TT is competition:)
OD

Mazdatrix and their RedLine Time Attack car (using a ProCharger S/C rig) are running out west...

http://www.mazdatrix.com/mazdatrixracing/?p=119&nggpage=2

Axial vs centrifugal S/C: FIGHT! ;)


All kidding aside, OD, great news and looking forward to the tale.

thanks dude---i think i will be the 1st FI rx8 in actual competition?
TT is competition:)
OD

Jim Holloway won PTB at the NASA natls last year in his Robert Davis Racing RX-8, sporting a Greddy turbo - reportedly only making 265hp.

ooh this should be fun. subscribed.

sweet glad to here another TTB (PTB) car battling it out. Obviously he went with light weight since TTB on our 4 door car can be in the neighborhood of 10.6/1. Thats the smart way of doing things.
I will have to look up that dude.
Dyno scheculed for next month.
Weight to be done at Road Atlanta June 19th. Fellow competitor has scales---sweet.
I can only run water injection-----NO METHANOL ALLOWED.
If I decide to run R 6 Hoosiers I will have to back down to a 245/35/18 size due to being over the allowed points.
R-6's are a +10
KW varient 3 coilovers +the coils themselves are a 9
Sways are a + 2
equal to 21
Allowed tire size is a 265. Going to a 245 will give me 2 points credit.
OD

Might I suggest using the correct tire size of 245/40r18 instead of the 35s?
You need the RPMs and top end, not low-end, especially since you shift before the HP peak.
(Not to mention the way that having the wrong aspect ratio screws up the fuel mapping.)

appreciate the thought. Remember, I am running the 09 transmission with a 4.44 diff so my final drive is a little different than the oem 04 car.
Heres my thoughts and please ; all suggestions and ideas will be considered.
In finalizing my final gear ratios, my power band and the adverage track speed, the 40 sidewall tire may have a slight advantage at Road Atlanta. That track has multiple areas of 100+mph. Only 1 straight that will see over 130mph and 2 areas that will see between 105-120. So a 5th gear that is good to 130+is good.
The 40 sidewall will require me to go to 3nd gear in 2 areas. Turn 7 and 10A. This may not be a bad thing really.
Now at every other track the 40 sidewall, I believe will be a disadvantage as I will be having to go to 3nd more often and at times i will be in that inbetween 3-4 gear need.

A 35 sidewall tire at road atlanta will req 6 th gear use in 2 areas (At my redline). The 09 6th gear is tall and this sidewall will help with that. It also has 3 uphill turns (using 4th gear)were low end grunt can be really put to good use.
3nd gear may be to short for 10A/B requiring a shift going up the hill to 4th and another shift approaching turn 12 to 5th. yet if i run 4th through there I may end up with too low rpms for that steep uphill approaching the bridge.
Decisions, decisions:)

For RR a 35 sidewall will be a hands down favorite. 6th gear presently kills me on the long front straight. I have ben running 275/35/18 nto1 that if i am not mistaken is about the same diameter as the 245/40/18 hoosier? if i went with the 40 sidewall i could continue in 5th to 139mph at 8K for that front straight, but 4th gear will not have as much grunt for the backside of the track. RR only has one area in which you will see above 110mph. Adverage speed for the entire track is between 80-90mph.

It may end up a different tire for that particular track?
What are the particulars for the tracks you are running ?
OD

Denny, do you have your registration in to Julie yet? I'm really looking forward to you being out on track with us. What is going to be your first event, RA, CMP or Roebling?

probably cmp!

going to dyno/weigh and corner balance at Balanced performance---soon.
Going to do 3nd gear runs--maybe 4th?
Have spoken with engine builder and a 8K redline is safe for me and that would still allow a little cushion.
Getting new set of r6 hoosiers next month.
OD

Denny, where are you getting the tires from. I need to get a set also.

Have spoken with engine builder and a 8K redline is safe for me and that would still allow a little cushion.

You are required to run the car to it's mechanical/electrical redline.
The dyno and classing must reflect everything the car is capable of doing without intervention by the driver.
Imagine if everyone dyno'ed to the RPM they felt was "safe" and then pulled out that extra 1500 RPM when they "needed" it!

Sandbagging your dyno is cheating.

The whole classing structure is a joke anyway ...

The whole classing structure is a joke anyway ...

Yea, I have to agree. The Honda S2K that is in first place in TTD for the season with me is running very strong. There's no real competition. He can do minor mods to his car and get huge gains. We make the same mods to our cars and get minor results.

Denny, can't you run the dyno in 5th to the rev limiter just to define your numbers even though you do not plan to go beyond 8K at the track?

the rotary engine can run to almost 10 K before e shaft problems. Does that mean I have to do that?
hell no.
ls 6 engines can run to 8K--do they do that--hell no
Rick has said 8K is safe but he doesnt advise over 8.3 on my build.

if anyone question my rpms (ha) then i will have data to back up the 8K redline for every session.

its common sense and if someone is sandbagging in a NASA TT class then they need to get a life.

nasa will soon be going to a gps system anyway to help weed out whatever "cheaters"e out there. At least that is what I have been hearing.
Don, only going to take it to 8K period. gear really doesnt natter. I am told a lower gear may show a higher hp number?

Jeff doesnt anyone ever c/o that you may be running a different ecu map? Mind you please--not that you are, and I dont think you would--but your system does have that capability, so that is something anyone could ? --right?
thats why anyone can challenge a car and a dyno is done post session while the car is in impound.
olddragger

Rick has said 8K is safe but he doesnt advise over 8.3 on my build.
olddragger

Did he say anything about non FI engine safe RPM's?

The whole classing structure is a joke anyway ...

It's only a joke for those who are not "favored" by the rules.
Really, the power-to-weight classification system with mod-points is an excellent system.
But like all systems, you need to master it and use it to your advantage.
Generally, the people that say its a "joke" are the types that complain about "the Man" and sour grapes and all that.

the rotary engine can run to almost 10 K before e shaft problems. Does that mean I have to do that?

If that is what your rev limiter is set to, then yes.
If you want to run an 8k rev limiter, then it MUST be in your flash.

its common sense and if someone is sandbagging in a NASA TT class then they need to get a life.

I don't know what YOUR racing experience is, but out here, people take it very seriously. TT-B is often a $100k initial buy-in. Don't even ask about TT-R.

Jeff doesnt anyone ever c/o that you may be running a different ecu map? Mind you please--not that you are, and I dont think you would--but your system does have that capability, so that is something anyone could ? --right?

Absolutely. I dyno with my race flash and I compete without the AccessPORT and I am required to verify that my operating flash is the one that was used to establish my baseline at impound.
If I were at Miller in September, I would be required to remove my OBD-II connector from the car completely.

To me it looks like a rather intelligent system. Way better than classes based only on displacement like they do here with the addition of marked\locked Ecus.

With NASA-SE, a flash is a free modification. No points added.

So Jeff does that mean all cars reclassified have to have a redline that is either mechanically or electronically verified?
I havent seen redlines mentioned in the TT rules?
As far as taking it seriously--i do think the nasa ttb guys do, but i will be a small fish in a big pond. TTB seems to be one of the most popular classes in the SE. I will not be doing a 1:38 at Road Atlanta, no way. Not without a cage. i will be one of the few using a DD in the TTB class.
And remember i have proof every session that i didnt go over 8K.
Impound--thats my point. Mine can be verified anytime--just likes yours.

Have to admit its a good question---how is the modified engines redline determined and who does it?

Don--flash is free for yall---damn! S2's have a BIG edge.
OD

So Jeff does that mean all cars reclassified have to have a redline that is either mechanically or electronically verified?

I don't think you are getting what I am saying.

Besides being a dishonest thing to do, if you dyno and leave 1500 RPM on the table and then, in an event, you find yourself using that 1500 RPM, you are subject to a "teardown" or a challenge.

If I were one of your competitors and I heard that you dyno'ed only up to 8000 RPM, I'd challenge your results just to have you DQ'ed.
If you put it on the dyno as the result of the challenge and you were able to get to 8050 RPM and made only 1 extra HP, you would be black-listed.

It's only a joke for those who are not "favored" by the rules.
Really, the power-to-weight classification system with mod-points is an excellent system. But like all systems, you need to master it and use it to your advantage.

Generally, the people that say its a "joke" are the types that complain about "the Man" and sour grapes is all

Lol, that's exactly why people choose NASA over SCCA. So what Dyno do you go by? By your own admission on this forum they don't mean anything unless run on the same Dyno on the same day under the same conditions. Running on a known Dyno having low numbers and making sure you're at low power conditions such as heat soaked etc is one work around. It sounds perfect in theory, the reality is it's just a warm & fuzzy that means and/ or corrlates little such as the whole points system basis, particularly since there's no way to stay on top of vehicles with variable boost capability.

I have never attempted to run NASA, but have served on the SCCA rules committee and have a good understanding of the overall classing issues so your sour grapes argument fails in that regard. It's just the opposite, which is why NASA has flourished in that regard but not so well as an overall serious racing organization.

Don--flash is free for yall---damn! S2's have a BIG edge.
OD

Yea, that's why I'm say'n I don't have a chance. Right now, I'm 3rd in points and only 50 points behind John (onrails RX-8) for second place. He has one more event than me. He and I run very close. I'm not making excuses, it's just a fact. That S2K is untouchable with 775 points. John has 420 and I have 370. The S2K has set track records in TTD at CMP (1:49.84 - new layout) and Roebling Road (1:22.49). I gave it everything I could at Road Atlanta and he beat me by a couple seconds. Until my daily driver has a roll cage, harness, hans and seats, I will have to hold back a little, like you Denny. I'd say that considering that I drive mine to work every day, I'm very pleased with the results. Also, just for shits and grins, I do have 2 first places and 1 second place finish this season. Since I have only run in 4 of 10 days with NASA-SE, I'm pretty comfortable with my car and driving.

Denny, I think I would talk to Jeff England (NASA-SE Time Trials Director) and get him to approve what your are suggesting. I say that because it would be nice to know going in just what you can expect rather than assuming it is OK. He may say that if you have documentation from Rick that all is well but I would want it defined ahead of time. Is it possible for you to set your redline with the set-up you have?

So what Dyno do you go by?

There are only two approved dynos for our region, so everyone uses one of those and they are always within 2% of each other.

Yep Don---thats what i have in mind.
by the way na engines also are recommend an under 9K redline.
Jeff -posing this question on the TT board.
i will let all know what is said.
Hell any rule can be bent!
On the regional level i have never heard of a challanged being done. nationally ---yes.

well looks like i will not be running in TT. Director says it has to be taken to rev cut--- i think that is around 9.5?
he does acknowledge that the engine redline is not mentioned in the rules.
What he said makes sense:

"This is definitely a problem. Once we are using GPS regularly to test compliance, it won't matter nearly as much. However, if you have a motor that is physically capable of making more power, and their is no actual rev limiter put on it, then how would you propose that we allow you to run based on those lower levels (that are adjusted by your foot)? We do not have the time or manpower to check your OBD2 data recordings after each session you run. As far as I'm concerned, if we have a car that is not rev limited, and the power curve on the Dyno is still heading upward at the point that the owner wants the Dyno operator to stop the testing, we should just extrapolate where that curve is headed to the actual known redline. However, as you state, it is not specifically written in the rules. It is written in the rules that NASA will determine how to run the Dyno testing, though. And, if I am running the testing, and I have this situation, then I will just determine that the owner is failing to be compliant with the testing by not allowing testing to redline--ie, DQ. We unfortunately cannot just rely on the word of a competitor that he won't run past a certain rpm on the track when there is nothing to physically stop him/her, and we do not have the methods/resources available to adequately ensure compliance.

As well, I have not seen your request for Dyno re-classing. I'm hoping that you are not under the impression that you can just max the car out at the limit of Adjusted Wt/Hp ratio for a class, and then choose your own base class to start calculating your points at.


No way in hell am i taking my boosted engine to 9.5K and i bet most other boosted guys dont either.
No way that i know to lower the rev cut outside of installing an aftermarket system. I am not doing that.
It looks like the end of the road.
OD

What EMS are you running now? Shouldn't be much of an issue with any reflashing tool\ems!

This is still higher than you want to go, but when the tach reads 9,500, the engine is actually at 9,000. The tach reads high. I have a Cobb and can check my actual RPM. At 8.500, my engine is at 8,200. A dyno reads the actual rpm, so your tach will be incorrectly higher than the dyno reads.

We unfortunately cannot just rely on the word of a competitor that he won't run past a certain rpm on the track when there is nothing to physically stop him/her

First of all, I told you so.

Second:

No way in hell am i taking my boosted engine to 9.5K and i bet most other boosted guys dont either.

I run it to fuel cut at ever single track day. That is what it is there for.
If you have not engineered your system to take it all the way to the end, then you need to decide where the end is and program that into the EMS.
Certainly, all the other boosted guys I tune take it to the end. I have the logs.

Since you have a flash tune, tell your tuner to lower your redline. End of story.

" I told you so?" God -sounds like we are married.

So the cobb can take the rev cut to a lower rpm?
I should call Cam.

Others are going to 9K?
Thats nice--keep them screaming.

I wonder if all reclassified TT cars are running a rev cut?
OD

" I told you so?" God -sounds like we are married.
lol



So the cobb can take the rev cut to a lower rpm?
Of course.
I should call Cam.
Not like he can help you with the AccessPORT.

Others are going to 9K?
Mine is set for 9200. Most are similar, though I've had a few ask for 10k.
I usually recommend 8900 for the smaller turbos.


I wonder if all reclassified TT cars are running a rev cut?

All cars have a rev limiter. By "rev cut", do you mean a lowered rev limit than stock?
In TT reclass, you run on the dyno. Where you stop is up to the director.

Mine is set for 9200. Most are similar, though I've had a few ask for 10k.
I usually recommend 8900 for the smaller turbos.


where have you set the limit for the other supercharger guys you've tuned?

OD - I'm certainly no expert here but reading that quote it sounds like all you need to do is alter your fuel cut to whatever you want your max rpm to be and your good :)

i imagine you should be able to do this with your current flash capability. if not, a few hundred for the Cobb would be a small investment IMO to get you on the right path

I guess it is all across the board Dondo. Rick E/Paul told me with my build --no higher than 8.3 if i want my engine to last a while (hopefully some years).
Some Pettit guys go to 9K , some to 8.3 or so. Hell guess it sounds like i am trying to turn mine into a diesel.
The blower can take it and continue to produce boost---np.
Oh by the way i dont tune--

Jeff what type of rev cut is it--fuel or spark?

By rev cut i mean the engine is limited to a particular rpm--after that rpm the revs are "cut".
old drag racing term.

Does look like i may need a Cobb, Paul-- wish someone was around with a commercial license.
OD

its a fuel cut OD

Thanks Paul--appreciate it.
Well the ecu may cut fuel but i would still be spraying water---(cant use methanol)----???
this is getting complicated.
I need to just dyno the damn thing till redline then drive it the way i want. i will not be running away from any competition out there (some serious cars and drivers) and i dont plan on going to nationals--so no one in their right mind would challenge my car.
Jeez
OD

i bet it wont matter... when you hit the fuel cut, rpms drop quickly and you get fuel delivery again.. unless you were pumping gallons of water, your not gonna have enough vapor to matter for anything. besides, i dont see you riding the cut off point anyway... you may hit it once, but you'll be changing gear/decelerating/braking whatever ya know :)

it'd be complicated but you could always consider controlling spray with the PWM for the fuel injectors, not directly but via a lil logic circuit. aka, spray gets tied to fuel delivery not MAF

where have you set the limit for the other supercharger guys you've tuned?

Same as noted above.
Phill is set to 10k. I think Heroic is set to 9200.
Most are at 9000.


Well the ecu may cut fuel but i would still be spraying water---(cant use methanol)----???
this is getting complicated.

Why do you continue to venture into this as if none of it has been done before and you are all alone?
We've seen it all before. We know how these subsystems work and we've detailed it all over and over again over the last several years.

For the record : it is NOT a fuel cut that limits your rpm . The ECU actually closes the throttle to about 20% or so when the set rev limit is reached .
SO - safe to hit your rev limit with an FId car IE no chance of running lean .....

thanks Bret that does help me feel a little better. Just cutting the tb back is good.
Jeff--- what are you posting about? Dont understand-- been there , done that, I am all alone thing?

OK -so I am off to Balanced performance toward the end of this month--- i will dyno to 9K
then use Rick/Pauls suggested redline in driving. I also will get an official weight and have them corner balance the car.
I appreciate all the help with my stupid questions.
OD

Jeff--- what are you posting about? Dont understand-- been there , done that, I am all alone thing?


Things like your questions about the W/M injection and almost all of your past posts about nearly everything from cooling to oiling and engine mounts to intake porting.

You seem habitually driven to "wonder" aloud about subjects that already have a massive amount of coverage and then proceed to experiment as if none of the pre-existing data is available to you, even though your "audience" is constantly presenting you with that data.
Even more frustrating are the often false "conclusions" you present after this experimentation, which requires yet another exposition of the previously-existing data and results just to keep the discussion from being derailed even further.

It's like stumbling into an active meeting of landscapers and loudly interrupting the discussion with the question: "Have any of you ever considered fertilizer?"

Huh?
Sounds like i am a pain in the ass and didnt get the memo.
So. excuse me and I guess i had better do a better job on homework.

As above, so below. As within, so without,
OD

Huh?
Sounds like i am a pain in the ass and didnt get the memo.
So. excuse me and I guess i had better do a better job on homework.

Well, you can label yourself in whatever way you feel is sympathetic.

All I am suggesting is that you consider the help that is given and include that data in your analysis, rather than pretending you live in a bubble.

More importantly, you will never see me or anyone I associate with discarding useful data just because of its source (or blindly accepting data for the same reason).

If you have an idea and there is information that makes the idea seem invalid, at least ponder why that data exists before you go on experimenting as if it didn't.

before labeling i was verifying. That is what is meant by "Sounds like".
If I am a pain in the ass and didnt do my homework then all someone needs to do is to tell me.
I cant read minds.
All the questions i ask is because I dont know or i am not sure of.
If you are speaking of the redline question--its not in the rules and Greg which Greg acknowledged and addressed the issue by saying they can control how the car is dynoed. Fair enough. You never offered that.
I will never discard useful data if i know its useful. True, sometimes i may have an idea for a different approach to whatever has been tried and didnt work. For example you mentioned Motor mounts. When i 1st started posting about MM you posted about how my idea wouldnt work because you already had experience with some prepared in a distant similar manner that failed. I persisted and i found a way to make them work and to keep the oem break a way mostly intact. I persist if I believe there is a way.
Perhaps its that i dont except things just because someone said so. I need to understand how they developed their beliefs. Kinda reminds me they way you were when people were inquiring about ignition dwell times and you refused to share because you wanted people to go through the process of finding out for themselves. Your belief was you wanted people to be able to solve the problem themselves.

you know still, all this and i still dont know wth we are talking about.
OD out

well --its over.
My car weight is too light.
I weigh approx 3260 with gas and driver
Thats means that i could not have anymore than 318 hp. I THINK i am more than that.
I am still going to dyno at the end of the month--you never know.
But with max power to wgt of 10.25/1 --it doesnt look encouraging
No I am not adding a subwoofer and I am not going on the Macdonald diet.
crap.

well --its over.
.

wha ? Are you saying that you are throwing in the towel due to being underweight ? You can't be serious .....

well --its over.
My car weight is too light.
I weigh approx 3260 with gas and driver
Thats means that i could not have anymore than 318 hp. I THINK i am more than that.
I am still going to dyno at the end of the month--you never know.
But with max power to wgt of 10.25/1 --it doesnt look encouraging
No I am not adding a subwoofer and I am not going on the Macdonald diet.
crap.


I thought being underweight was good?

I heard a Smokey Yunick style story from a racing buddy about a DSM they built for some race series. They built the car almost 200lb underweight, and then hid a 200lb ballast in a custom cheater fuel tank, as low and in the middle of the car as possible. They spanked everyone else in the series by a mile.

I thought being underweight was good?

I heard a Smokey Yunick style story from a racing buddy about a DSM they built for some race series. They built the car almost 200lb underweight, and then hid a 200lb ballast in a custom cheater fuel tank, as low and in the middle of the car as possible. They spanked everyone else in the series by a mile.

exzachary !!!

Can't you add weight ballasts?
Anyway it's time to jump on the lathe and machine a custom pulley to get the exact amount of power you need!

well --its over.
My car weight is too light.
I weigh approx 3260 with gas and driver
Thats means that i could not have anymore than 318 hp.

Uh, what?

My car is 3314 with me in it and I'm looking to lose 200 pounds and I'm WAY over 318 HP.
I don't get what you are saying.

nasa has a power/ wgt ratio that cannot be surpassed. TTB it is 10.25/1.
With 1/4 tank gas and me in the car i weigh approx 3260. Nasa uses a race wgt for this ratio. that defined is how much the car would wgt when you came off track after a session.
you cant use a full tank of gas--most is 1/4 (by word of mouth).
I believe MM you have the leather interior etc. i dont. i do have the touring model but no leather, power seats, nav etc. I havent added a subwoofer or anything of that nature.
At 3260 the most hp i could have is 318 hp. At 330 hp i would have to wgt is at 3380lbs.
That would be 120lbs of ballast.
I dont know how your organization class's cars MM.
Adding ballast on a DD car is not that simple for me but if it is under 100lbs --sure, i could do that.
Nasa also has strict rules about how ballast can be added.
OD
Dyno 1st and see what i have--then it will be decision time.
last week in july is the time.

Set your rev limiter to coincide with whatever your maximum horsepower needs to be - simple .

Set your rev limiter to coincide with whatever your maximum horsepower needs to be - simple .

Wouldn't another pulley ratio be better? It could offer a broader power range instead of limiting the available power, right? I may be plain wrong though :yelrotflm

just ballast it, depending on regs that could allow you to have the same ratio as any other option, but allows you to place your weight where you want it... IF regs allow


OT - hey G, things are not looking good for the match sunday if you come up :(

I think someone is not reading the rules correctly.

Or, were you expecting your car to be a TT-C car?

no, TTB.
Please enlighten me if I am missing something?
TTC, if I remember correctly, has a approx 12/1 ratio.
I understand that Greg will class the car according to dyno in which h/p and TQ is recognized. Also the weight of the car plus all the other points stuff.
There are certain allowances listed such as a 4 door car gets a break (they will not classify ours as a 4 door), but i dont recognize any that i can use.
That is how the rules read to me, but Greg does the decision making.
OD

Find some lead weights and bolts and go from there.

I have a thought and wondered what other think that may solve my "problem".
What if i just disconnect the apv's? I would run pig rich but maf readings suggest a sub 300 hp level? I got 325 at 7.7K--ambient temp was high at 99F, w/m injecting water only.
Is there any problems doing that?
OD

Wouldn't it be easier with a larger blower pulley?

I have a thought and wondered what other think that may solve my "problem".
What if i just disconnect the apv's? I would run pig rich but maf readings suggest a sub 300 hp level? I got 325 at 7.7K--ambient temp was high at 99F, w/m injecting water only.
Is there any problems doing that?
OD

The question is whether or not you will run your car on the track like that.

If yes, then it's an option although not one I would pursue.

If not, then it's still cheating.

Why not just go to a larger pulley?

no, i dont think so- because i would have to change out the injectors.
OD

Why would you have to change your injectors if you went to a bigger pulley?

I still don't understand what this is all about, anyway.
Your car is a TT-B car. That is what it is.
Why you are looking to try to make it into a crippled TT-C car is beyond me.

no, i dont think so- because i would have to change out the injectors.
OD

I'm unsure why you wouldn't be able to account for that in your tune but I don't know much about your setup beyond what I've read here and it's not the focus of the discussion.

Well, the process is very simple: Either you adapt the car to fit the TTB class or you accept a more competitive class ranking.

Attempting to sabotage the car to gain a lower power level defeats the purpose of the classing. Can it be done? Sure! Should you? Well, racing is based largely on honor amongst drivers with some ability to challenge should someone suspect cheating. Even if you did sabotage your car and even if you run it that way it's clear the car isn't running at it's maximum capability. That, in effect, violates that pact that racers have with each other which is to run full out in competition.

So, the solution is to dyno the car in race trim and deal with the consequences whatever they might be or adapt the car to fit the class. Don't sandbag the car even if you run it that way, go full out.

Now, there are obvious exceptions to this. I happen to know drivers that run lower manifold boost on the track than on the street. However, this is part of their race setup and they don't engineer the car to run terrible they simply do it for safety and performance reasons.

That's why I suggested the larger pulley. There's nothing wrong with running lower boost to fit into a certain class.

Either way Denny, go dyno the car and see where you're at. All the fuss won't mean anything if you're within the limits.


Why would you have to change your injectors if you went to a bigger pulley?

I still don't understand what this is all about, anyway.
Your car is a TT-B car. That is what it is.
Why you are looking to try to make it into a crippled TT-C car is beyond me.

Ah shit, does this mean we touched dicks?!?

thanks for all info guys.
trying to stay honest--and I will stay honest. if i removed the apv then i couldnt very well easily change anything? That was my thought.
I am concerned that my car will be too light and it will throw me into the TT A class because I cannot exceed 10.25/1 wgt/power ratio for the TT B class. That is why I am bouncing ideas around. I am not excited about adding ballast to my DD. But if I have too--i will. Up to a certain limit.

Hopefully work will allow me time off to dyno next week. Its around 125 miles away and not open on the w/e's.
Again thanks--no more crazyness from me until after that.