Is it possible that if a REVISED PiGGYBACK unit is placed on a stock ECU it takes time / extra kilometers to download all its revised information to the stock standard ECU ?????????????

Michael

I don't believe so, it is just re-mapping the air/fuel ratio coming from the stock ECU. There is no download to the stock ECU. Because the install involves disconnecting the battery and an ECU reset the following is required (from Maurice):

"Drive for 5 minutes in normal manner to allow the ECU to re-learn sensor and driving conditions."

CZ1 issue? Switch turned to "on" position ;-)

L&L,

There is no "download of information". The piggy back is intereting the MAF signal from the engine, and telling the computer something different is happening. That is how most piggy backs work. One of the earliest was to put a resistor on the MAF or the temp sensor. This tricked the computer to think the engine was at different conditions than it was, and put in more or less fuel, more or less timing. With a little bit of careful experimentation you could get more power under some circumstances.

Modern piggy backs are a little bit more advanced, allowing you to put different amounts of "trick" in at different points/conditions.

Ric Shaws piggy back does not trick the computer, from my understanding, but takes control of the fuel injector duty cycle, and ignition timing. I would be best to let Ric explain this himself.

Also, dont forget about Closed Loop and Open Loop. See http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18833 if you want to have another read.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Do we dectect a twinge of absolute disappointment. L&L?

I fervently hope not. I took a wrx for a spin last night, after six weeks in the 8, and it illustrated just how much we need more grunt.

Are you there arn't a few un-connected wires from CZ's unit hanging out of the ECU box.? Or stuff you couldn't find a place for, so you chopped them off?

jack

That's L&L and Hymee's conundrum, isn't it. By removing the earlier thread and locking down preliminary results, the obvious perception created is that CZ's unit does not meet expectations, at least in relation to Australian ECUs.

A classic information stand-off of the 'damned if you do (release the data) and damned if you don't'. :(

Despite being an early adopter in just about everything else, I am determined to sit back and wait in relation to performance mods. Hey, I can scare myself with what's underfoot right now :D

Hi Guys,

WILL SOMEONE ACTUALLY SAY WHAT THE F*** IS GOING one WITH CANZOOMERS ECU PIGGYBACK.

This is meant to be a forum for the sharing of information. I for one really hope that this ECU upgrade works but if it doesn't it doesn't.

To quote someone else "Please explain"


Steve

Basically...........CZ stage 1 works well on US cars.

Stay tuned.............

Originally posted by timbo
That's L&L and Hymee's conundrum, isn't it. By removing the earlier thread and locking down preliminary results, the obvious perception created is that CZ's unit does not meet expectations, at least in relation to Australian ECUs.

A classic information stand-off of the 'damned if you do (release the data) and damned if you don't'. :(



That is absolutley correct. The results were published then removed, and can only cause -ve feelings. That is why I was against it, once the information was out. It is also why I published my findings, as emack had already posted his. In the end, it was an accidental deletion, and emack has appologised for that, and I hold no malice towards him. The problem was the embargo placed on re-publishing the information. I wonder if anyone has my extremely well written post still up, or in there browser cache :)

L&L, I am afraid you have probably already let the cat out of the bag (or the cat out of the can, or the zoom out of the can - hehehe). If you read between the lines of this, and the other related posts, it will become apparent.

Why would you be worried that "all the information" had not been downloaded to the PCM if your car now took off like a rocket (like mine does :p) Would it make any sense to withhold +ve info from the "public"?

I would recommend you ask CZ for his "permission" for me to openly publish my report ASAP. I am sure he will be very quick to answer in an appropriate and mature manner.

And since Australia is only a rounding error of a rounding error in terms of the world economy it is possible that it might not be worth the investment in an "Aussy Cal". But that is his decision, and rightly his perogative.

Cheers,
Hymee.

And I though modern democratic societies upheld the concept of freedom of speech.

OK - To wet some peoples appetites, and to keep some people intrigued, here is a measured performance graph showing measured acceleration, and derived power. (Remember that power, acceleration, force, torque, time, mass and distance are all inextricably related to each other by the laws of physics)

Before you look at the graphs, This is NOT a test of the CanZoomer Mod other than the fact it is in the "OFF" position.

http://rx8.hymee.com/images/lnlvshymee.png

The data has been measured by an accelerometer and logging device. This is what the V8 Supercar teams use to great effect when doing real in-vehicle testing of the cars. You can get a Motec dash unit that has one in it. Mine is a MR Dyno (http://www.mrdyno.com)

The data was recorded on the same day, on the same road, with averages shown. Runs done in both directions of the road. The test is performed by first getting the vechicle stable at 35km/hr in 2nd gear. Cruise control is great for this. The "test" is commenced, and the throttle is opened up fully. The data is recorded as soon as the vehicle reaches 40km/h, and continues logging 100 samples / second. Each sample has a 16 bit resolution (0.00025 Gs).

No launch variables or gear change variables come into the equation.

The "Hymee" vehicle is totally stock, including the "Stage 0 Hymee Tune" (sorry I couldn't resist that one).

The "L&L" vehicle is totally stock except, for all intents and purposes, as the Canzoomer Stage 1 box was "OFF".

The power plotted is dependant on the vehicle weight being accuratey entered into the device. I had mine weighed on a scale a few days before, and I can make an allowance for how much fuel there is. If you work it out, each 1/4 tank is about 10kg. L&L's car is the Leather Pack, so it already has a 30kg penalty over the Hymee Poverty Pack.

However, the G-forces observed are the actual readings.

The actual times for the runs are almost a full second different.

So I hear y'all ask "Why is Hymee's car quicker than L&L's". That is a good question. Here are some plausible explanations:

[list=1]
Hymee's car is lighter
Hymee car was running BP Ultimate, L&L's was running Shell Optimax.
The cars might get driven differently - so they may have learned different fuel trims.
The Hymee Tune - Stage 0 is working well. Sorry - only joking again.
[/list=1]

Anyway, something for you all to ponder while we wait for the OK from Mr Canzoomer.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Hymee, what about the frictional variabilities of yellow versus red duco's Doesn't red provide a better drag coefficient, hence red cars go faster.

Interesting. I reckon there's more in the "fuel trim" explanation than anything else, but it's beyond my expertise...!

What about total milage, state of air cleaner, type of oil in engine???

If you have a dirty air cleaner, lower quaity oil, a lesser fuel...

Plus you need to reset the ecu on each car and carry out identical preliminary driving...

apples and apples guys!!

Plus there's the tyres (weight, tread and pressure) and not least the weight of the car.

My car has more sparkle with ultimate than any other fuel - that's just one thing. Add a different visc oil and two identical cars can suddenly be very different.

PS Was L&L's boot full of interesting bits?

As far as i am concerned there are too many variables in different cars to start guesstimating Why one car may be 1 second quicker than another , over a 40- 100km range .

My cut out switch seems to have come in 10km earlier than HYMEES , for some reason .

My car is going to be looked at by a Mazda dealer this friday and i will see what they will say and do some test maybe my car needs to be tuned ???


Anyway if it improves Hymees SELF STEEEM / EGO and makes him feel better about himself .

At having his RED car beat my YELLOW car , i dont mind GOD knows i have AMPLE self steem / ego to go around .ha ha ha.
and after all hes a great bloke .

HYMEE you are a LEGEND ALL BE IT in your (own lunchtime ).HE .HE .HE..

Anyhow happy to give away 1 second on my car as i have the pleasure of starring all day and re reading the "WHEELS MAGAZINE" featuring the best colour for the RX8 LIGHTINING YELLOW BOTH ON THE FEATURE FRONT PAGE (WHICH I AM HAVING FRAMED ) AND 13 other glorious photoes of a yellow rx8.
HA .HA. HA .HE, HE. HE. WHOOPY. HOORAY.

Lets not mention all the extra goodies i have in my car as opposed to Hymees poverty pack red rx8 .(Hymee you have learnt to give it so you should learn to take it ) ment in the nicest possible way .

CHEERS

MICHAEL

You might notice this was my first foray into the "yellow" versus "red" debate. It was all tounge in cheeck. It is just funny how some people react when the "truth" is told. People ask for "documented evidence". I gave what is as near the best as to what we can achieve with what we have, but it still is not good enough to some... It is almost impossible to compare 2 exactly the same apples.

Maybe I forget to mention the speed at redline issue between the cars. I performed a number of tests earlier when I went from 40 to 110. I just hit the cutout as 110 was reached.

In L&L's car it did't register 110 by the time the cutout happened. We tried at 105 with mixed success, so I just bit the bullet and went to 100. We missed out on the top few hundred RPM.

No - I did not do an ECU reset. No we didn't test the L&L cars before we disconnected and put the ECU in. But how many hours in the day? Not enough, but it aint like I don't give much of my time to this place. Perhaps we should have tried the ECU in my car as well...

Anyway, L&L's car is being Dynoed next week. Perhaps we can dyno mine as well as a comparison.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Originally posted by Hymee
… It was all tounge in cheeck.

Hymee, I think you should be WARY aBOUT spendING SO much time WITH LoKC & LOda. We're all WORRIED Yyooll end UP with HUGE SELF STEEEM! :o :o :) :D :D

Sorry -- cheap but fun shot there ;) :p

Yes, there are a lot of variables and, as was stated in another thread, this forum is like a networked computer (actually it IS a real neural network) through which facts, observations and other pieces of evidence are shared, theses formed, tested and so-on.

I reckon the comparison between the two cars is fascinating. Anyone else have similar? Perhaps we can put a sticky on the forum, and share this type of data in one spot. I'd certainly be interested in seeing more data.

Hymee

"How many hours in a Day"???????

I feel that you may have come to the same realization as Emack and i that for some forum members what you do for the forum is clearly not appreciated / not enough.

After all you are our Australian moderator , you have designed and built the famous Hymee Grill that protects our RX8 s from being damaged .

You have spent counless hours effort in designing and having the Hymee exhaust built for the rx8 ,

You are working on your own ECU modification , with Rick , helping each other to try and achieve a better result for our RX8S

You have spent lot of your time in testing Canzoomers STAGE 1 KIT and wrritting a report .etc

Not to mention the cost of the equipment you personally had brought over from overseas to be able to conduct these tests .

The time you spend on the forum educating us on the rx8s ins and outs .

The precious time that you are not with Hymett and the 2 little hymites .

The number of times you are interrupted on the phone by forum members , he he .

Hymee a lot of us really do appreciate what you do for us and the forum , but unfortunately there are those that selfishly take it all for granted.

cheers
michael

PS :
Maybe the problem is that you have never shouted a Free Meal and drinks all round at the FAMOUS Hymee Bar and Grill .
HA.HA.HA

L&L,

Thanks for the kind words.

Just a slight clarification before anyone gets confused - I have had no input into Ric's ECU. It is his baby. I have talked to him a lot about it though, and would like the opportunity to get him some independant verification. I do think it sounds like a good way to go.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Originally posted by timbo
I reckon the comparison between the two cars is fascinating. Anyone else have similar? Perhaps we can put a sticky on the forum, and share this type of data in one spot. I'd certainly be interested in seeing more data.

Thanks Timbo,

I did it for it's interest, not for points scoring. In fact, my car was making better "G's" that day than it was the first night I started doing 40-110km/h runs. And L&L was not in the car that night so we weighed 90kg less.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Would either of you feel like sharing your 40-100 times?

-pete

Pete,

Sorry, I should have posted that!

L&L's car

Average all 6 runs with CZ Off = 6.24s
Best of all 6 runs with CZ Off = 5.79s


My car

Average of 3 runs = 5.19s
Best of 3 runs = 5.14s

Posted for informational purposes, not "bragging".

Cheers,
Hymee.

OK, time for me to pitch in and get this started officially..

The standard setup in our Stage1 does not work well on Australian RX-8's NOW.

The purpose on sending the units down to a couple of testers was to get feedback, so we may do a map as needed to suit the cars.
We will continue to work on this to produce the desired results.
It simply will take a bit longer for this to be nailed down properly for your cars down under.

I started a thread on the Canzoomer Forum on this topic here:
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19542

I invite Hymee, LockandLoad, and others to pitch in on this as they feel is suitable.

Over the next little while we will be working together to gather data, and we will then produce a new map for testing by them.

Info to follow as it develops.

canzoomer, thanks for your post, and all the work you've done and your commitment.

Originally posted by AMG
canzoomer, thanks for your post, and all the work you've done and your commitment.

You are most welcome.

It is fascinating to see that Australia is the only place where we have NOT done well so far.

I have landed units in 3 Euro/UK locations, N. America, and one in S. America, and all have done well.

I suspect now that the Aus/Asia region have different maps entirely.

As you can see with the huge differences between Hymee and LockAndLoads cars in STOCK trim, there is a lot to the testing that needs to be done.

I need to get accurate and similarly tested fuel/air mesaurements on BOTH of those cars, and I amhoping they can get in some dyno runs somewhere so we can see the details of what actually is happening on these cars.

Hymee has a method that works for him for Fuel/Air measurements, but we see that we need to use the same instrumentation as I used here so we can properly compare.

We have some work cut out for us, but I feel confident that we can do it with the assistance of these gentlemen and their skills.

Originally posted by rx8 - smooth!
Hi Guys,

WILL SOMEONE ACTUALLY SAY WHAT THE F*** IS GOING one WITH CANZOOMERS ECU PIGGYBACK.

This is meant to be a forum for the sharing of information. I for one really hope that this ECU upgrade works but if it doesn't it doesn't.

To quote someone else "Please explain"

Steve

We are explaining now.
Read, digest, but most importantly:
RELAX!

No conspiracies here, just some honest work and testing to be done.

Neither Rome nor Brisbane were bult in a day.

It doesn't work properly NOW.
It is my intention to rectify that.

Cool?

Canzoomer,

Thanks for your reply.

I must have been a bit testy the day I did that post.

I should say that my frustation was not directed at you but rather at missing the information that had been posted - as it turns out inappropriately. I have been following the development of your product with great interest and was looking forward to some objective testing on our cars. It was there and then it was gone- Bugger!!

At the time of my original post I was unaware of the arrangements that you had with L & L & Emack. I can understand that you wish testing results to be kept confidential until you have had the opportunity to review them.

I appreciate the massive effort that you have made with this product and await further developments.

Regards,


Steve

Maurice firstly a big thankyou for spending over 40 minutes on the phone with me this morning, answereing all my questions with precision as usual.

Both Emack, Hymee and myself will be conducting all the further releavant testing required to re-adjust the stage 1 kit to suit the Australian RX8s.

I am 110% convinced that with the re-adjustment of the stage 1 we will have even faster cars than our US counterparts. As our state of tune seems to be higher/better than the RX8s in US.

It took Hymee and myself approx. 1 hour to install the stage 1 kit, although we took pictures and joked around while we were installling it.

The installation instructions are excellent and are easy to follow. Once the unit was installed, switched to the ON position, we took off. DSC light came on however we managed to get it to switch off.

There is a smooth and evident boost in the 5000 rpm and up range, especially in the lower gears. Lots of fun and rapid acceleration.

Below 5000 rpm, we noticed an intermittent power phase lag. However at times it was hard to notice this lag, but it is evident intermittently.

As I stated earlier we are working together with Maurice to re-adjust our maps to suit the Australian RX8s specifically. My advice is since there is no other ECU unit that comes near the quality and workmanship of Maurice's stage 1, I'd be sitting tight, saving my money and looking forward to Maurice re-adjusting the stage 1 kit.

So don't worry, be happy and shortly get ready for the revised stage 1 Australian RX8 review.

Cheers

Michael

Canzoomer,

I will post my results, as documented to you, in the "Canzoomers Place" forum, for all to see.

(refer http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=235130#post235130)

I hope that is what everyone has been so patiently waiting for.

My summary comments to readers are thus:

* I experienced noticable less power between 4,000 and 5,500 RPM. This is evident on the MR Dyno charts I have plotted.

* The "kick" at around 5,000 RPM is only catching up to the standard power curve.

* Initially L&L's car recorded slower 40-100km runs. After a few more runs, the runs with the unit "OFF" where a wisker slower than those with the unit "ON".

I believe with proper re-mapping, the mid-range power loss can be negated.

I also believe there is some power to be gained, as the standard car still runs rich. But only time will proove or disproove this theory.

Canzoomer needs to be given time to address this situation, and it appears as if he is quite willing to do so. After all, the cars obviously do have a different mapping.

Cheers,
Hymee.


PS - L&L, I'm not sure if we will get more power than the NA cars, as the goal of the mapping is to get AFR's the same, which means both cars will essentially be in the same state of tune. We might all get the same - as we are not changing the internals of our engines. Once fuel delivery and spark is optimised, the physics of the engine are the limiting factor. The fuels are different, apparently, so that could make a difference. Anyway, time will tell. Oh - and don't forget the law of diminishing returns. In some ways I hope we are not already there. My wallet hopes that we are!

Originally posted by Hymee
Canzoomer,

I will post my results, as documented to you, in the "Canzoomers Place" forum, for all to see.


That is what i had hoped. You sent me a PDF and i had difficulty trying to extract the text.


Cheers,
Hymee.

PS - L&L, I'm not sure if we will get more power than the NA cars, as the goal of the mapping is to get AFR's the same, which means both cars will essentially be in the same state of tune. We might all get the same - as we are not changing the internals of our engines. Once fuel delivery and spark is optimised, the physics of the engine are the limiting factor. The fuels are different, apparently, so that could make a difference. Anyway, time will tell. Oh - and don't forget the law of diminishing returns. In some ways I hope we are not already there. My wallet hopes that we are!
Dead right. We are doing maps to correct a situation, and to do more would be a more aggressive map.

That is not our goal in Stage1.

This is a map intended to be approcximately similar to the JSPEC one. Maybe not absolutely identical, but to share the same characteristics for longevity, low risk of detonation, flexibility with fuel octane levels, reliability and tractability. Safe for use with the stock catalytic converter.

NOT a racing map.

You guys are genius. Sorry L&L and Hymee I jsut realise that.

I love to have an ECU. Ric should have his say and I am looking forward to what you can do.

In the meantime, I should sit back and relax. Dream for the ING's bodykit

P.S. I feel bad if I cash in after all you guys have tested. But hey I will achowledge your hard work in my webpage when I get my hand to an ECU :D

P.P.S. I am reading about your explanation of close/open loop. Thanks. I think I know a bit more now. I will want one bad after some positive result from L&L. Good luck

have sent an ecu with aust tune in it to US so we will soon see hoe it goes on a car with US maps.
remember though that my ecu is adjustable with inbuilt loging for all to tune in any place.
so if a gain is to be made it will be.

This is so cool... Canzoomer sent his to check out in Oz, and now Ric's sending his to the US.

Very cool!

I'm going to be watching this space with great interest. :)