Thanks Iluvrevs

Update:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7010/6595046221_71ed78dfd9_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/6595046221/)

I have this as well in case you don't get them

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2764/4390637228_19bebb6d01_z.jpg?zz=1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/4390637228/)
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5215/5405404751_9b06d07560_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/5405404751/)
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5015/5407309753_32b682ec6f_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/5407309753/)

All good, did come across those and collected the results.

Im sooooooo confused on what oil to use after reading this thread... I have 87k on my car... not sure its the original motor as i got the car with 84k I need an oil change what oil should i use? also i live at 5000ft. alt.

I think the conclusion to draw from the data is that damn near any oil will do, leaning toward oils that retain their viscosity. Some of these oils definitely don't keep up the viscosity.

To me I think that means overpriced synthetics or cheap diesel oil. The 15W-40 cheap diesel oil works for me.

I sent in a sample 2 days before Christmas and added mail confirmation; apparently it's still sitting in the post office. :(

Im sooooooo confused on what oil to use after reading this thread... I have 87k on my car... not sure its the original motor as i got the car with 84k I need an oil change what oil should i use? also i live at 5000ft. alt.

If your car is out of warranty or you are not worried about the warranty, then many people recommend an XXw40 oil. I have used Castrol 5w30 with good results and am still using a 5w30 because I am under warranty; several people on here use 5w40 or 0w40 synthetic. A lot depends on how you drive (street/track/stop and go) and environment (heat/humidity) and mods to your engine.

Most agree that the factory recommended 5w20 dino is too weak to provide proper lubrication/protection. My local Mazda dealer uses 5w30 Castrol so I figure they would have a hard time turning down a warranty claim for using 5w30.

The MOST IMPORTANT thing you can do is use a good quality oil (dino or synthetic) and change every 3000 to 5000 miles while checking often and keeping it topped up. Some poeple change their oil more often, few would recommend a greater than 5000 mile OCI althought the manual says up to 7,500...:dunno:

I use 20w50 in my 1979 12A motor.

Looking at the analysis I did and had posted here via an Excel pivot table its not real clear what factor oil plays in our engines. However, in manipulating the pivot there are additional trends that may be meaningful but as with this view they are still not obvious. If anyone wants the Excel version PM me your email addy and I can forward.

Keep in mind that even among trbology experts there are varying opinions as to whether or not a UOA provides any indication of engine versus simple the condition of the oil. So with that following are the patterns I see.

There appears to be some minimal reduction in Chrome and Copper occurrence in the samples that seems to relate to the use of 10w and 15w40.

There appears to be some minimal reduction in Iron occurrence with the use of 5w20 and 10w30.

And oddly enough there seems to be more significant reduction of the occurrence of Aluminum with the use of 5w20 and 15w40.

These 3 observations are adjusted for mileage on the OCI.

Then when I manipulate the pivot to account for ZDDP I see NO indication that the occurrence of any potential wear metals is impacted by additional quantities of the additive.

Manipulation again for Molybdenum and Boron, both of which serve as antiwear additives I still see no indication that there is benefit to higher quantities of these additives.

One pattern that sticks clearly out from additional manipulation of the pivot is the occurrence of potential wear metals increasing as the engine accumulates mileage beyond 50,000 or so. This is clear, but not still not terribly clear. Maybe this is from bearing and gear wear causing more movement of the rotor? I’m not knowledgeable enough to say.

Another thought I have is that we aren’t interpreting these UOAs correctly. We have a much smaller engine than the piston type possibly meaning the acceptable potential wear numbers should be adjusted down accordingly.

My final thought is that while the variations in metal occurrence between oil grades in minimal the slight advantage to 10w40 and 15w40 may support what some of the engine builders here have said with regard to viscosity and engine wear. To be more comfortable with this logic we’d need some 50wt UOAs and preferably 20w50.

Revs, try the numbers around measured viscosity in the UOA rather than claimed initial viscosity.

Update from Iluvrevs

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7021/6685858517_3b14b0e9bb_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/6685858517/)

Revs, try the numbers around measured viscosity in the UOA rather than claimed initial viscosity.

Coming shortly, stand by.

Sorry man, got super busy yesterday afternoon.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7030/6690178673_d20bd57a68_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/6690178673/)

i thought this would be good to include in this discussion:

Metal Tests

Some of the metals tested for and usually included in analysis of an oil sample and their potential sources are:

Aluminum (Al): Thrust washers, bearings and pistons are made of this metal. High readings can be from piston skirt scuffing, excessive ring groove wear, broken thrust washers, etc.

Boron, Magnesium, Calcium, Barium, Phosphorous, and Zinc: These metals are normally from the lubricating oil additive package. They involve detergents, dispersants, extreme-pressure additives, etc.

Chromium (CR): Normally associated with piston rings. High levels can be caused by dirt coming through the air intake or broken rings.

Copper (CU), Tin: These metals are normally from bearings or bushings and valve guides. Oil coolers also can contribute to copper readings along with some oil additives. In a new engine these results will normally be high during break-in, but will decline in a few hundred hours.

Iron (Fe): This can come from many places in the engine such as liners, camshafts, crankshaft, valve train, timing gears, etc.

Lead (Pb): Use of regular gasoline will cause very high test results. Also associated with bearing wear, but fuel source (leaded gasoline) and sampling contamination (use of galvanized containers for sampling) are critical in interpreting this metal.

Silicon (Si): High readings generally indicate dirt or fine sand contamination from a leaking air intake system. This would act as an abrasive, causing excessive wear. Silicon is also used as a anti-foam agent in some oils.
Sodium (Na): High readings of this metal normally are associated with a coolant leak.

Now remember we have twin oil coolers and those big old stationary gears that chew the oil up--lol. We have a huge exposure for the oil in and around the rotors---so a rotary engines percentages will be different than a recips. I am not sure how they compare samples.
Heck its looks like the 30 wgts are doing pretty good.
I have heard from a few of the possibility that the new shaped side seals can't handle the heavier viscositys the 40/50 wgt stuff? no proof offered yet.

All, keep in mind that the 2nd pivot is a comparison of the viscosity grade AFTER use/shear as the CST @100C or SUS at 210F would fall within the SAE engine oil grade scale. I think only 1 GF rated 30wt oil stayed in grade and that’s the Valvoline 5w30. This UOA showed more wear than the others actually, but the mileage on the engine was higher which is the only solid trend relating to potential wear related metals showing up in analysis.Of course all this only matters if one agrees with the use of used oil analysis as a means to ID wear. The bulk of the oils that were 30wt after use started out as 40wt or diesel rated 30wt with the exception of the 1 M1 0w20 which qualified as a 30wt by just a hair. Of the 38 samples input into this analysis the oils starting as 20wts and 10w30s showed he least shear proportionally.

Yay in that it wasn't lost in the mail afterall, boo in that the chromium won't go away. :(

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/25219728/rx8uoa.JPG

FWIW, I have switched to Valvoline 5w30 full synthetic after this oil change (was previously using Valvoline 5w30 conventional).

Ferret, changing from dino to sythetic will not likely make any difference. I think you need to step up the viscosity.

And would somebody explain to me how chromium from the apex seals gets into the oil when the apex seals contain no chromium? And any chromium they scrape off the housings is going right out the exhaust port. The only "action" you could take is rebuild the engine (or better, switch to a higher viscosity!). Methinks Blackstone don't know der Wankel...

Ferret, changing from dino to sythetic will not likely make any difference. I think you need to step up the viscosity.

I agree, and plan to do that once winter is over with ... or should I just do it now? :dunno:

I agree, and plan to do that once winter is over with ... or should I just do it now? :dunno:


If you are worried about the cold go with Mobil1 0W-40.

After reading all the goods about it (from you ;) ) I actually ordered 2 cases of the stuff instead of my usual royal purple regimen . Will post some UOA's of my runs with it.

Meh. I run 15W40 year-round now. No trouble starting in bitter cold (and I have original less-powerful starter). I just keep the revs and loads down by driving gently until the temps come up.

Oh, and I have the radiator almost completely blocked once the temps drop below 40. Otherwise I can't get above 175 and more like 160-165 on sub-freezing days. With the rad blocked it goes up to 180-185 and just sits there. Important for keeping viscosity up and moisture out. I don't get any mousse under my filler cap.

I ran some 10W-40 dino oil during break in and I saw no real difference in oil pressure or how the car ran when I switched to my normal 0W-40 last weekend. But, the 0W-40 has performed well for me over the years so I'll stick with it. I'll probably do my first UOA on this engine in 2,000 miles.

If you are worried about the cold go with Mobil1 0W-40.

I think I will, thanks! Do you use that year-round?

I think I will, thanks! Do you use that year-round?

Yes, but it stays warm here year round for the most part.

Gotta hand to the Valvoline for holding viscosity in grade. But, not doing a thing for wear prevention.

I actually did yet another analysis if you guys are interested. M10w40 actually showes as the best choice so far, though it would help to have more samples.

Wankle, how long have you been running 15w40 in the cold? Also, whats your avg cold and max?

I'll have a UOA soon enough and REDRX3RX8 should have a sample coming up I would think as well.

I think I will, thanks! Do you use that year-round?

Mobil 1 0w40 also has moly and boron for antiwear which might slow down that chrom which is coming from those agressive staionary gears.

Your uoa looks good with very low fuel.

so just get some 0w40, and you'll have 3 improvements: Thicker, Moly, and boron. :)

This oil was developed for hot hard to lube German cars, so yes, this oil holds up to extreme engine use.

Everyone gets thrown off by that 0w. It's not a thin oil. I just doesn't thicken much when cooling.

maskedferret how is your oil consumption? You might have clogged OMP nozzle or two.

maskedferret how is your oil consumption? You might have clogged OMP nozzle or two.

I think at most it's ever been is maybe 1.5 quarts per 3000 miles. Seems to have been slowly diminishing ... just under 1 per 3000 by now. The thought has crossed my mind. I just don't look forward to taking out the UIM to check.

before you do that I would run some seafoam trough your OMP. that might do the trick.
more info here: http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=217177

My uoa had approx 4 ppm chrome, and my 8 only uses about 1 qt in 4k miles.

IMO that lubing the apex seals won't change your uoa, just save the compression.

You should already be putting in about 7 or 8 oz. premix per fillup (approx 12 gals).

I'll change my oil before the next track day in a few months, and the miles on it will be approx 5500 miles, but my uoa at 23k miles showed no water, and almost no dirt or excess fuel.

therefore, I'll get uoa every other oil change just for fun, not this oil change.

My uoa had approx 3 ppm chrome, and my 8 only uses about 1 qt in 4k miles.

IMO that lubing the apex seals won't change your uoa, just save the compression.

You should already be putting in about 7 or 8 oz. premix per fillup (approx 12 gals).

I'll change my oil before the next track day in a few months, and the miles on it will be approx 5500 miles, but my uoa at 23k miles showed no water, and almost no dirt or excess fuel.

therefore, I'll get uoa every other oil change just for fun, not this oil change.


And you live and drive in the dustiest environment known to man so that just amazes me. But then again keeping a clean air filter at all times helps that I would think.

My uoa had approx 3 ppm chrome, and my 8 only uses about 1 qt in 4k miles.

IMO that lubing the apex seals won't change your uoa, just save the compression.

You should already be putting in about 7 or 8 oz. premix per fillup (approx 12 gals).

I'll change my oil before the next track day in a few months, and the miles on it will be approx 5500 miles, but my uoa at 23k miles showed no water, and almost no dirt or excess fuel.

therefore, I'll get uoa every other oil change just for fun, not this oil change.

Did you post those up here? I thought the only 0w40 UOAs were from 9K.

Did you post those up here? I thought the only 0w40 UOAs were from 9K.

He is a traveling man, his username when he is stateside is REDRX3RX8. I have posted his 0W-40 results.

Here are my UOAs.
1st sample was with Shell Rotella 5w-40 and whatever was in the car when I bought it.

2nd and 3rd sample are same batch of redline 5w-30. 2nd sample had 2 track days on it and 3rd sample(same oil) had 6 track days on it.

I also had a crack that was letting unfiltered air in (hence higher silicone) on the pvc fitting connecting the crankcase vent to the intake.

I say oil held up very well given the track days and coolant in the oil.

alumaseal took care of the coolant leak for now.

http://www.rx8club.com/picture.php?albumid=4207&pictureid=30257

Did you post those up here? I thought the only 0w40 UOAs were from 9K.

My email played dead so, I'm on my laptop in Java, and I don't mean coffee.

I'm REDRX3RX8, and 9krpmrx8 edited and posted my uoa's for me.

I started talking to him from this uoa thread where I saw he was using Mobil 1 0w40, my favorite oil.

I'm not sure that Mobil 1 0w40 is the best oil in the world for the 8, but I don't see anything better.

These uoa's don't necessarily find good oils, but they can find bad engines, and sometimes oils that aren't working like the high chrom from MaskedFerret.

And you live and drive in the dustiest environment known to man so that just amazes me. But then again keeping a clean air filter at all times helps that I would think.


I still have the original air filter, and had almost no dirt at 23k miles!!!

And you saw the cup full of red sand that we threw out of the AC air filter!!:shocking:

Was wondering if anyone of you has try this before?
http://www.amazon.com/Accel-80511-SAE-Non-Detergent-Motor/dp/B0052KYAMC

I was walking in walmart looking for 5w-40, but instead bump into this brand.

It intrigues me to read the following:
A good straight mineral engine lubricant refined by modern methods....

but it's non-detergent... what does that means? It is also SAE30 which means our rotatory is suitable to use it right?

Was wondering if anyone of you has try this before?
http://www.amazon.com/Accel-80511-SAE-Non-Detergent-Motor/dp/B0052KYAMC

I was walking in walmart looking for 5w-40, but instead bump into this brand.

It intrigues me to read the following:
A good straight mineral engine lubricant refined by modern methods....

but it's non-detergent... what does that means? It is also SAE30 which means our rotatory is suitable to use it right?

This is usually used for compressors and the like
Dont want to use in a combustion engine

Do not use non-detergent oil in a modern engine. (i.e. one made after your parents were born.)

A guy with a nice rebuild 55Chevy came through our service station way back in 1969, and bragged about how clean his oil was with Non Detergent SAE30.

As I checked his oil level I did see that it was somewhat clear and golden, but we were fuel distributors, and at 17, I even knew that: "Yeah, the oil is pretty, but all the dirt from your air is glopping all over your valve train."

In later years, I had customers asking for mo SAE30 instead of turbine oil because it could handle high heat of compressors.

Jeez you Americans love wasting your money on UOA's...;)

In the end you get all this info and what do you do about it???...most from what I read do little or nothing...so what for?

In the end if your coolant is getting low and you can't find a leak with a "normal" pressure tester then odds are you have coolant entry into your Rotary Engine....needs a rebuild.

If you have excess chrome in your UOA it is either Apex Seals/Corner Seals wearing off the chrome on your Rotor Housings or at worse worn Rotor Bearings damaging the Eccentric Shaft journals...Again what are you going to do about it??...Premixing is too late to change flaking or wearing RH chrome....again a rebuild.

You could possibly get YEARS of service/miles out of your engine BEFORE a rebuild is needed, so you let a high chrome UOA worry you to death for a thousand days..when you are better off NOT knowing. :)

None of this analysis will stop your engine crapping itself....in the end..:)

^Got up on the wrong side of bed, eh?

Your point is mostly right, but we have to find something to waste our money on, since we don't drink as much Foster's as you guys down there! ;)

I agree uao's are useless once you have decided what oil to run. Unless you want to go to an extended oil change interval or trying to diagnose a problem--like how well is that air filter actually working.
Its a tool just to use selectively.
We can discuss it over a couple of those Fosters!

Well with my coolant seal failure I was not seeing a loss of coolant or smoke from the exhaust and diagnosing the problem was actually pretty difficult. The UOA confirmed the presence of coolant. If I had not been in the habit of testing my oil, I probably would have wasted more time blaming my ignition coils for the misfires, chasing down exhaust leaks, and trying to trouble shoot even more.

I mean eventually it would have gotten bad enough and I would have started to get smoke in the exhaust and a noticeable amount of coolant loss but the UOA told me what i needed to know and I didn't have to pull apart the engine myself to find out :)

Besides, it's only $20.00 a couple of times a year (or less if you are 40w8/REDRX3RX8).

right on--use it to diagnose a problem.

I do UOAs because I'm a data geek. It's cheap fun. :)

for me (at least), knowing the weariness is how you prevent and take measures to extend the longevity of the engine.

I mean.. just take this for example, E.g. your health report, if you regularly go for health check-ups to 'detect' or make queries to your body -- it's good to find out if you have any problem vs. someday you realize you have a "lump" (out of no where); with early detection/ prevention, you can easily fight "cancer" at a way earlier stage, which give you a better chance to make a full recovery. or whatever high cholesterol (i.e. too much chrome), diabetes, and etc.

for me (at least), knowing the weariness is how you prevent and take measures to extend the longevity of the engine.

I mean.. just take this for example, E.g. your health report, if you regularly go for health check-ups to 'detect' or make queries to your body -- it's good to find out if you have any problem vs. someday you realize you have a "lump" (out of no where); with early detection/ prevention, you can easily fight "cancer" at a way earlier stage, which give you a better chance to make a full recovery. or whatever high cholesterol (i.e. too much chrome), diabetes, and etc.


Yep, take my coolant seal problem for example. If you catch a problem like that early you can save major parts from being ruined and in turn that will save you a ton during the rebuild process.

I like the "cheap fun" idea. Not much of that left anymore.
Wild weekend--buy lotto ticket and get my uoa report in!
cost $21. Heck cant even go to a stupid movie/popcorn/coke for that anymore.

so you let a high chrome UOA worry you to death for a thousand days..when you are better off NOT knowing. :)

Better to be prepared than to be caught with our pants down around our ankles and no money for a rebuild.

I do UOA's to compare my "new" engine results with whatever results I get in the future. Any skewed results and I know that I should probably start putting aside a bit more money in the "just-in-case" tank.

Yeah catching my problem while the car was still running somewhat normally allowed me to prepare and get the money in order.

There is significant debate as to whether or not UOAs show any indication at all as to engine wear measurement. I’ve even read from Mobil 1 that they do not and then later on read that they do. Terry Dyson is a hardcore believer in their value to identify the best possible oil for an application for what that’s worth. They are a good measure I think of how the oil itself is doing, but I don’t think the majority of us are really getting our value from them with the exception of 9K who was able to identify coolant ingress. We could better coordinate our oil choice, sampling frequency and such to come up with more valuable trending. For example, a group runs 50wt this summer and another group runs the M1 0w40. All the while tracking avg ambient temps, city/hwy/track, premix, and mpg just to name a few parameters.

I will go back through the thread and make sure I have the 0w40 samples correcting input into my data and repost if necessary and also post my most recent analysis look. This most recent one shows M1 0w40 as being the overall winner, but 10w40 isn’t far behind and could be considered better to those that know more about the rotary than I.

Yep, take my coolant seal problem for example. If you catch a problem like that early you can save major parts from being ruined and in turn that will save you a ton during the rebuild process.

Major parts like what?
If a coolant seal goes, most rebuilds are very standard, not many high wearing parts are reused in any-rebuild, unless you are a tight ass.:)

I mean parts like housings and irons. I would think that having coolant in the combustion chamber would cause excessive wear on those major parts.

that is why it is good to run good synthetic oil which gives you larger margin of extra protection. If I didn't have redline oil in my car my UOA wear numbers would have been much worse especially when you take into account number of track days in those last two samples!

This is an average of the previous numbers revised to capture all the UOAs and averaging wear metals over OCI mileage.

I would add lead numbers and show the wear per 1000 miles for easier reading.

Nadrealista, I can send you the Excel data if you want to play with it. Just PM me and let me know.

With regard to yet another oil discussion on Canadian Forum, http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=229407, I said I would post thoughts relevant here to keep things more organized.

To restate if necessary, I’m educated as an accountant and work in the financial reporting and analysis sector of the economy so I’m by no means officially educated in combustion engines or engine oil tribology. But, for the last 13 years I’ve done fairly extensive research into engine oil tribology and internal combustion engine engineering. The analysis I’ve done of our UOAs here has been done out of boredom at work and curiosity, but I’m getting to the point that I’m less convinced that UOAs are an end all indicator of how well an oil is doing at protecting an engine and also that there I'm convinced that there is NO silver bullet of motor oils for our application or any other.

My last PDF analysis of the UOAs was meant to show me of the viscosities we have sampled which showed the least amount of wear metal occurrence overall. As I hope everyone else can see it appears that 0w40 seems to be the best bet overall, but as can be seen its not night and day better and there are tradeoffs. That being said I went a little deeper because the data on 5w30s didn’t seem to make sense. So, because I think there is a factor associated with higher mileage engines I eliminated those with >50K miles which happened to be all 5w30s and 2 belonged to Ferret. Back to Ferret's UOAs in a minute.

For the 5w30s with the high mileage UOAs removed we get an average OCI of 3,548 miles, Avg Alum/mileage of .0009, Chrm/mlg of .0015, Iron/mlg .0066, and Cpr/mlg of .0008. If I compare these results to the other oils 5w30 looks quite good if I consider that lower Chrm is less liner wear, lower Cpr is less bearing wear, less Iron is less rotor and less side iron (also maybe apex seal as I’m not sure what those are made of) wear, and the Alum is on par.

Now Ferret's high Chromium occurrence makes me think that his rotors MAY be moving out of balance from the housing liner and this could be due to overly warn gears/bearings that have looser tolerances causing the movement. So, perhaps there is a need for a 40w, 50w, or even 60w oil to fill in these looser tolerances.

Stealth is right on with the assertion that lighter oils will leave less carbon and they have less overall mass to provide material to be left behind when burned. The same can likely be said for non hydrocarbon based lubricants such as esters (group Vs) found in oil like Redline, Renewable Lubricants, Motul, and MPT to name a few. Less carbon will = less carbon left behind. However, this only applies to niche synthetics like those referenced here. Its pretty common knowledge now that M1, Pennzoil Plat, Synpower, Syntec, and the main synthetics use quite a bit if not entirely Group III or Group III+ petroleum derived base stocks. The exception to this is M1's 0w oils that from what I’ve seen lately are quite possibly an advanced Group IV or PAO base stock and AN Group V to achieve their performance characteristics.

We do have some highly experienced builders on here that swear by 40w and 50w oils. Given their experience in the front lines, so do speak, this should very meaningful. As additional support for this I had a conversation with an oil engineer with Joe Gibbs racing in December where I was told that in testing they did for the military on drones using rotary engines they learned that 20w oil was insufficient at protecting the apex seals and at least a 30wt (they said 10w30) oil was needed. But, if you really want to bake your noodle look at Flashings’ run of 0w20. A pretty good gear/bearing metal # and not too bad housing liner # either.

So all of these observations and data of mine for the better wealth of the community but I’m by no means intending to make any assertion as I simply can’t say for certain even for myself what the best oil is.

I’m less convinced that UOAs are an end all indicator of how well an oil is doing at protecting an engine and also that there I'm convinced that there is NO silver bullet of motor oils for our application or any other.

Your research and thoughtful analysis has led you to the same conclusion that professionals who test oil for a living reached a long time ago: Oil is Oil

See my "Oil is Oil" links below for two such professionals' opinions.

Your research and thoughtful analysis has led you to the same conclusion that professionals who test oil for a living reached a long time ago: Oil is Oil

See my "Oil is Oil" links below for two such professionals' opinions.

Yeah, I read that from Blackstone's site years ago. I think about the same time I also read from BITOG more highly esteemed professionals (so the theory goes) indicatig otherwise. So, it took me another few years to get back to this point. Seeing is beleiving right?

Seeing is believing right?

"Believing" is thinking something is true despite contrary evidence or lack of evidence. The problem with oil and why things like dino vs. synthetic are referred to as "religious wars" is because there are too many Believers and not enough people thinking, asking questions, and seeking out cold, hard facts. I think oil is mostly just oil, but I'm one of the guys testing mine to confirm or refute that hypothesis. I don't just believe it.

So maybe it's better to say "Facts trump beliefs!" https://www.mdshooters.com/images/smilies/patriot.gif

"Believing" is thinking something is true despite contrary evidence or lack of evidence. The problem with oil and why things like dino vs. synthetic are referred to as "religious wars" is because there are too many Believers and not enough people thinking, asking questions, and seeking out cold, hard facts. I think oil is mostly just oil, but I'm one of the guys testing mine to confirm or refute that hypothesis. I don't just believe it.

So maybe it's better to say "Facts trump beliefs!" https://www.mdshooters.com/images/smilies/patriot.gif

Semantics

Revs,

What I'm noticing is many 5w30's and lighter oils don't have moly and boron for antiwear, so the uoa's don't look very good compared to 0w40 which is thicker and does have those antiwear adds.

Revs,

What I'm noticing is many 5w30's and lighter oils don't have moly and boron for antiwear, so the uoa's don't look very good compared to 0w40 which is thicker and does have those antiwear adds.

That was my initial thought too, but I didn’t see it in the data I collected. But, then I may be over analyzing and missing the trend. Too bad we can’t post in Excel here bc the data is in a pivot table so it can be manipulated pretty easy to ID trends and such. I agree with you though that Moly and Boron are quite important to this application. I think even the 0w20 flavor of M1 carries a lot or at least a good amount of both which may be why Flashwings run of it showed some promise. I think like you it seems that in the main market available oils M1 0w40 is the best value unless you want to step to niche oils.

If anyone has a good chunk of money to blow on oil MPT might be worth investigating. Its a newer oil being produced by a Redline distributor (ironically) and is rumored to be up to 85% Group V and no VIIs. So, it should in theory be completely shear stable and burn super clean as well as clean to some extent much better than most anything else available either as an oil or secondary additive. It runs about 15$/qrt before shipping I think at Matrix Synthetic oils .com.

I took Iluvrevs data table added my 3 UOAs to it and made some charts to compare the wear per 1kmiles of use for different viscosity. Important thing to note is that 0w20 and 0w30 only have one and 0w40 and 5w40 only have 2 data samples. So those results should probably be taken with some reserve.

First chart combines all main wear metals(averages per 1k miles) for each viscosity. probably a good overall wear indicator:
http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww328/dajstadas/UOAwear.png

Second chart shows same data individually:
http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww328/dajstadas/UOAwear2.png

I'm afraid the charts and numbers should be taken with a shaker full of salt as they don't take use into account. There's no way 15W40 is going to have higher wear than 5W20 in the same use case. The difference is that the guys running 15W40 are hard track users (as bad as heroin), while I suspect most 5W20 users are street drivers, maybe touching redline once a day. That is going to skew the results.

I'm afraid the charts and numbers should be taken with a shaker full of salt as they don't take use into account. There's no way 15W40 is going to have higher wear than 5W20 in the same use case. The difference is that the guys running 15W40 are hard track users (as bad as heroin), while I suspect most 5W20 users are street drivers, maybe touching redline once a day. That is going to skew the results.

I completely agree, good example are my oil analyses with car only driven to/from and on the race track. However I did track my Audi S4 with 0w30w GC and my wear numbers were not any worse than what other S4 owners (in the street only driven cars) had using 0w40,5w40 or 15w-50 oil..so one can conclude that oil additive package >> than oil wight when engine protection is in question..essentially you hit the point of diminishing returns once you get above HTHS of 3.5. few 30wt oils have it and GC was one of them.

did you post any of your UOAs?

Speaking about track addiction did you see my post in racing forum for the local Audi Club event on summit mid march..you should come out and join me!

I'm afraid the charts and numbers should be taken with a shaker full of salt as they don't take use into account. There's no way 15W40 is going to have higher wear than 5W20 in the same use case. The difference is that the guys running 15W40 are hard track users (as bad as heroin), while I suspect most 5W20 users are street drivers, maybe touching redline once a day. That is going to skew the results.

Good points. Another is the particles detectible by the lab's equipment. They are only set to scan for those in a certain range so smaller or maybe larger metal particles will not be considered in the analysis. Though larger would probably be captured by the filter further calling into question the ability of UOAs to determine engine wear. The only way heavier oil will provide more wear is if its restricting flow sufficiently enough to inhibit lubrication and I’ve read recently (though I can’t disclose the source for confidentiality reasons) that the wear at start up is not terribly profound if noticeable at all in a UOA.

I had the same thought about the people who run heavier oil are probably pushing their car harder (I wonder how many have forced induction?). And they probably also change their oil more often as well.

If true (and this is of course just speculation) then it means that how you driver your car is more important than what oil you put in it. At least from a wear metal standpoint. Again, speculation, but it makes a certain amount of sense.

But given that carbon buildup is the more common rotary killer, wear metals are probably inconsequential for most people anyway.

Armchair speculations aside, it would be interesting to see the single lowest wear metal report by oil weight, although we should probably toss out any changes with less than 3,000 miles.

Also wonder if there is a correlation between 4 port vs. 6 port and wear metal rate.

One thing I think helped low metals in my good 0w40 uoa is that I put some magnets on my filter to suspend some of the iron.

I'm more worried about antifreeze, dirt, or fuel anyway.

Mobil1 0W-40 from another Texas member. Looks Good :)

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5247/5283556134_c4286ed8ff_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/5283556134/)
41896-E38992 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/5283556134/) by 9krpmrx8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/9krpmrx8/), on Flickr

This is my uoa, and I bet the single lowest metal count of anyone's oil.

Oil in one year, and 4 track days!

Only one quart added in 5151 miles, but Mobil 2t premix in fuel.

How many of the UOA's are from Series II engines, and how do they compare against the Series I UOA's for similar miles and usages?

BC.

How many of the UOA's are from Series II engines, and how do they compare against the Series I UOA's for similar miles and usages?

BC.

I think me and Paimon are the only ones. I think what we do have so far shows little difference between SI and SII, but mine were during wear in so not much can be determined from there.

So here are my results with another 3000 miles on RP 5w30.


Hi,



Sorry for the delay in responding. We do have analysis results, the additive package is in great shape, and negligible wear metals. The silicon and sodium, in these amounts, may be evidence of dirt in the oil, or a dirty sample. One thing, though is that the viscosity identifies it as a 20 weight oil, and right on the money for our 5W-20s. Are you sure this car had 5W-30 installed?



Regards,



Chris


http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=182607&stc=1&d=1331673750

So i dont know ... that is 3 total reports now with lower than spec Visc numbers showing up ... not to mention random crap in my oil apparantly.

I mean the viscosity is not bad but definitely not where my Mobil1 typically is. Not to mention this is during cold weather. I'd like to see how it stands up after 3,000 miles during a Texas summer. It's definitely suitable oil but not very impressive for a boutique oil. I have never been a fan of Royal Purple.

Just for us you should switch to Mobil1, Red Line, or Amsoil for an OIC and see what gives.

I may switch to 0w-40... Im running M1 5w30 now with avg temps around 40 dipping to 20. Its warming up though.

I mean the viscosity is not bad but definitely not where my Mobil1 typically is. Not to mention this is during cold weather. I'd like to see how it stands up after 3,000 miles during a Texas summer. It's definitely suitable oil but not very impressive for a boutique oil. I have never been a fan of Royal Purple.

Just for us you should switch to Mobil1, Red Line, or Amsoil for an OIC and see what gives.

No worries, I actually have 2 cases of M10w40 waiting my next oil change :). I am going to run this oil for another 2K miles and do a followup test with the RP guys to see where this oil goes.

But I agree, like my past 2 UOI's, not bad numbers, but surely not good enough for me to be paying out my ass for.

Paimon, what random crap are you referring to in the oil? With regard to shear Id suspect you’d get a little lest shear in summer as I think you are getting more fuel shear than mechanical. I’ve read recently from someone that spends time around some of the major LeMans race teams that they aren’t terribly concerned about oil shear, but I need to get my head around those thoughts better.

Here's a run I did for giggles because this is what my dealer uses and says to use for top up/owner service. This oil was in for about a month and a half, was a double flush (10 quarts total exchanged to start this fill), and included 150 super hard track miles. I premix with 6oz DSFM per fill up on the street and on the track I use Protek R at 16oz per full tank. OEM oil and air filter, no mods, and oil was Motorcraft syn blend 5w30. My dealer uses the Motorcraft despite it being a synthetic blend as the own preference since they are an international Ford super store and use 5w30 in the RX8. Sample date 3/2 was all street use and oil went in early February. Sample date 3/15 saw 150mls on the track and the rest on the street. My apology for the math being off on miles report, but its immaterial. Make up oil is correct. Again, this oil fill was the same oil fill not changed between samples, sampled before and after track use.

Okay, so if I've got this right, back in Feb, you did a double flush oil change to get a pretty clean load of oil into the engine.

Then, you drove ~2000 miles, and took a sample of what was in your engine.

Then you went to the track, slapped on 150 miles there, and then drove for another 450 miles, and took another sample of the same oil?

So, if that's the case, you increased Alum, Chrom, Potas, and Silicon by 1, Iron by 3, but your Moly went up by 19.
Also, your viscosity and flash point went up too. That's a bit odd.

Is moly a wear item in the engine housings or apex seals?

BC.

Okay, so if I've got this right, back in Feb, you did a double flush oil change to get a pretty clean load of oil into the engine.

Then, you drove ~2000 miles, and took a sample of what was in your engine.

Then you went to the track, slapped on 150 miles there, and then drove for another 450 miles, and took another sample of the same oil?

So, if that's the case, you increased Alum, Chrom, Potas, and Silicon by 1, Iron by 3, but your Moly went up by 19.
Also, your viscosity and flash point went up too. That's a bit odd.

Is moly a wear item in the engine housings or apex seals?

BC.

Moly is an additive in Motorcraft oils as well as Pennzoil and Redline, just name some. There could also be moly from the housings if they are actually chrom/moly alloy like those pimpen wheels.

FP and viscosity could have increased for a few reasons. First, a lot of oil was added during the track day and that could have restored viscosity and having fresher oil with less fuel could have raised the fp. Second, the oil could have been significantly oxidized increasing the viscosity. Third, the track time itself evaporated out a large portion of the fuel dilution.

I think the apex seals are iron.
You are correct in how the OCI transpired.

Here's a run I did for giggles because this is what my dealer uses and says to use for top up/owner service. This oil was in for about a month and a half, was a double flush (10 quarts total exchanged to start this fill), and included 150 super hard track miles. I premix with 6oz DSFM per fill up on the street and on the track I use Protek R at 16oz per full tank. OEM oil and air filter, no mods, and oil was Motorcraft syn blend 5w30. My dealer uses the Motorcraft despite it being a synthetic blend as the own preference since they are an international Ford super store and use 5w30 in the RX8. Sample date 3/2 was all street use and oil went in early February. Sample date 3/15 saw 150mls on the track and the rest on the street. My apology for the math being off on miles report, but its immaterial. Make up oil is correct. Again, this oil fill was the same oil fill not changed between samples, sampled before and after track use.

The UOA at 613 miles is so good it looks like a VOA.

Silicon at 12 + virgin # is normal, and yours is 6.

You don't have fuel dilution, a coolant leak, or any significant wear.

The moly and boron antiwear add pack looks strong.

I just changed my oil at 5.5k miles and 16 months.

This oil can or could have gone that long, too, without any extra wear.

The UOA at 613 miles is so good it looks like a VOA.

Silicon at 12 + virgin # is normal, and yours is 6.

You don't have fuel dilution, a coolant leak, or any significant wear.

The moly and boron antiwear add pack looks strong.

I just changed my oil at 5.5k miles and 16 months.

This oil can or could have gone that long, too, without any extra wear.

Yeah, the viscosity loss doesn’t appear to have had much impact on wear metal occurrence in the UOAs. I wanted to see if I really need to change before and after tracking, which it appears I do not. The Motorcraft brand oils seem to have a pretty solid performance and reputation on the internet too. This summer I’m planning on running 20w50 mineral oil under the same conditions and testing methodology and will post that up. There I want to compare viscosity loss only, but there may be other useful observations too. Fuel economy and apparent power output was not benefited with running thinner oil over my 10w60.

Looks like filtration and contamination ingress is well under control lending to the potential for extended drain intervals at least beyond 3K miles.

Yeah, the viscosity loss doesn’t appear to have had much impact on wear metal occurrence in the UOAs. I wanted to see if I really need to change before and after tracking, which it appears I do not. The Motorcraft brand oils seem to have a pretty solid performance and reputation on the internet too. This summer I’m planning on running 20w50 mineral oil under the same conditions and testing methodology and will post that up. There I want to compare viscosity loss only, but there may be other useful observations too. Fuel economy and apparent power output was not benefited with running thinner oil over my 10w60.

Looks like filtration and contamination ingress is well under control lending to the potential for extended drain intervals at least beyond 3K miles.




How did you measure the difference in the power output for different oil viscosity?

Paimon, what random crap are you referring to in the oil? With regard to shear Id suspect you’d get a little lest shear in summer as I think you are getting more fuel shear than mechanical. I’ve read recently from someone that spends time around some of the major LeMans race teams that they aren’t terribly concerned about oil shear, but I need to get my head around those thoughts better.

Sorry, totally missed this. I guess I am not exactly too sure the effect of the junk in my oil, but I am going by what the tech at RP said:

"The silicon and sodium, in these amounts, may be evidence of dirt in the oil, or a dirty sample. One thing, though is that the viscosity identifies it as a 20 weight oil, and right on the money for our 5W-20s."

I have continued to use the same oil for just about 1000 miles, so I am going to send in the follow up sample to see how the results compare and see what the extra 1000 shows, hopefully that will be enough miles to gather some significant data on how the RP oil does over time.

I tried RP 10/40 wgt some years back and I also got the reduced viscosity in about 2K miles.
I dont like it. My front bearing had substancial wear ( almost throught the copper part) in less than 40K miles. I didnt run RP the entire 40K, but for a large portion I did.
Redline is now my oil of choice. I now run the 5w/30 with excellant results.
Of course there are also other excellant oils out there. I think we do need the zinc though.

Now threadjacking a little here, but I read the post in which 16ozs of premix was used per tank for tracking. I figured it up one time, not too long ago, the actual percentage of oil/gas I was using on a track day. I was mixing 1 oz per gallon at the time. That 1 oz per gallon plus what the omp was injecting came out to ....almost a 50/1 ratio!!!!! I cut back after I realized that. Too much is just as bad as too little in my book.

How did you measure the difference in the power output for different oil viscosity?

I didn’t, that’s why I said apparent. My estimation was based upon the fact that I was hitting 105-107mph in the back straight of HPR on the 10w60 and the same on the 5w30.

to many variables in play on the track..

I would say that 20/30wt will have lower pumping loses than 60wt oil therefore more power produced by the engine will make it to the wheels all other things being equal.

I tried RP 10/40 wgt some years back and I also got the reduced viscosity in about 2K miles.
I dont like it. My front bearing had substancial wear ( almost throught the copper part) in less than 40K miles. I didnt run RP the entire 40K, but for a large portion I did.
Redline is now my oil of choice. I now run the 5w/30 with excellant results.
Of course there are also other excellant oils out there. I think we do need the zinc though.

Now threadjacking a little here, but I read the post in which 16ozs of premix was used per tank for tracking. I figured it up one time, not too long ago, the actual percentage of oil/gas I was using on a track day. I was mixing 1 oz per gallon at the time. That 1 oz per gallon plus what the omp was injecting came out to ....almost a 50/1 ratio!!!!! I cut back after I realized that. Too much is just as bad as too little in my book.

Really! I notice that my 8 uses about 1/2 quart per 2k miles, but the 150 miles on track day seems to use about 1/4 quart, so I've settled on 6-8 oz premix whether I'm hwy cruising or on the track.

I didn’t, that’s why I said apparent. My estimation was based upon the fact that I was hitting 105-107mph in the back straight of HPR on the 10w60 and the same on the 5w30.

My scangauge HPR which people claim is inaccurate is definitely optimistic, but consistant.

When I track at 600 ft elevation, I got 259 hpr max, with the BHR ign it went up to 269, but out here in West texas, I can only seem to get 250 hpr.

I've got winter gas in still so when I fill up in several weeks, I'm going to find out if I'm tracking less BTU gas or altitude of 3300 ft.

Reached 105-107 might only be a little more accurate than using fuel gauge to measure mpg. :)

i must be injecting more oil than you at the track---i will use 1/2 quart per tank of gas.

i must be injecting more oil than you at the track---i will use 1/2 quart per tank of gas.

Yeah, but your car has a more extreme heat and pressure with that turbo or SC you got ( I hear a lot about your car, but you make lots of changes), so you are in the zone.

I only have four 20 minute sessions on a 1.8 mile track with a lot of 30 mph corners and braking, and I use about 2/3 tank.

I can only hit 90 mph for a few seconds in 4 places, but the supercars hit about 110 or more.

Look up vids at H2R San Marcos, tx on youtube, and you can maybe compare.

How much the omp supplies is based on the engines load and rpm only. No other parameters are involved.
It's true every driving situation is different--no doubt. But if you are using only 1/4 of a quart per 150miles of track driving--it may not hurt to check your oil injectors/lines? Our cars are not getting any younger and bad injectors/lines are starting to show up.
Now yours may be just fine IDK, but it is wise to be cautious.
During street driving ( I dont drive hard or fast on the street) I will use a quart in 2 K miles.
My omp settings are stock.
Just passing on what I have seen my car do. I am sure everones is a little more different.
car is a hoot on track --eh?

Yeah my SOHN reservoir emptied once during the first oil change cycle on the new engine and it holds about 2 quarts.

Sorry, totally missed this. I guess I am not exactly too sure the effect of the junk in my oil, but I am going by what the tech at RP said:

"The silicon and sodium, in these amounts, may be evidence of dirt in the oil, or a dirty sample. One thing, though is that the viscosity identifies it as a 20 weight oil, and right on the money for our 5W-20s."

I have continued to use the same oil for just about 1000 miles, so I am going to send in the follow up sample to see how the results compare and see what the extra 1000 shows, hopefully that will be enough miles to gather some significant data on how the RP oil does over time.

Silicon and sodium are both sometimes put into the oil by the refiner.

Mobil 1 0w40 has approx 4ppm silicon for antifoam, and other oils like Exxon Superflo had lots of sodium as cleaning detergent.

Silicon can rise approx 12 ppm for the max dirt, and high sodium with potassium might indicate eg coolant.

How much the omp supplies is based on the engines load and rpm only. No other parameters are involved.
It's true every driving situation is different--no doubt. But if you are using only 1/4 of a quart per 150miles of track driving--it may not hurt to check your oil injectors/lines? Our cars are not getting any younger and bad injectors/lines are starting to show up.
Now yours may be just fine IDK, but it is wise to be cautious.
During street driving ( I dont drive hard or fast on the street) I will use a quart in 2 K miles.
My omp settings are stock.
Just passing on what I have seen my car do. I am sure everones is a little more different.
car is a hoot on track --eh?

My car is 6spd auto so my revs are only 2700rpm@ 80mph, and I geared down 4% with 40 profile tires, so I'm winding about 2/3's a much as MT's especially since I let it shift at 7k rpm.

I like your idea of only hitting 7k, and my driving is probably perfect for the engine.
My 8 never used much oil, but I know it flows some on track day so I'm content with that 8 oz I put in.

I drive around real easy, but at least a few minutes everytime I'm out, I floorboard it, and the track day 4 times a year makes sure I've burned up any carbon.

Yeah, track day is what I live for, but Texas is so busy with the oil and real estate boom that the independant HPDE guys are too busy working to put on track day.

Maybe I'll have to go to some of those depressed states to do my leisure activity. :doh:

ahhh---ok --i didnt realize you had an automatic car. Still--it may be wise to check?
Lol--come on over to my state---we have PLENTY of tracking oppitunity!

ahhh---ok --i didnt realize you had an automatic car. Still--it may be wise to check?
Lol--come on over to my state---we have PLENTY of tracking oppitunity!

Ha! Yeah, I was hopping for an invite, but it just sounds like a couple of countries over, and most guys are faster than me so they wonder why I drive ( it really helps learn the 8, and tune the suspension).

I have kept up with 500 hpr cobras, and some others, but we all know they just had not learned their car , yet. When I'm out on the street, I know exactly what I can do under changing surfaces and traction.

I like to tweak with minimal mods so I don't go for real sticky rubber like a friend on here Altain. When I rode with him, I think it pulled close to the 1.2 g's I've heard on Toyo 888's, and I was a little sick. I like a tire that will pull about 1 g dry and be good in the wet so I can work the traction. My best fun was on a drizzly day last year, and no fast cars like Bimmers or Vettes could catch me.

My 8 never seemed to use much motor oil, but I never have driven in stop and go where the revs keep coming; mostly rev it on the track.

Since, I know the omp is set to the low side, I knew to add that premix ( Mobil 2t ) since about 2000 miles. I took a original leading plug out at 28k miles, and there was no black on it; just shiny metal inside with a small amount of that tan sand looking deposit. I don't know if that means I'm not premixing or injecting enough or the BHR ign is burning all the carbon off.

sounds good man and you are welcome to join us anytime. We just have a good time and we have had the rare auto 8 out there. Braking and handling is a big strenght in this car.
We are all about to give up the dedicated r compounds for tracking and just buy the RE11's instead too. Changing wheels and tires is a PITA at times.

Olddragger, Id had thought too regarding premix quantity in an operating OMP. For the sake of consistency I will run the same rates this summer with the 20w50 but until them I’ve cut back on the track dose. Thanks for putting some numbers to it.

Red and Nad, its highly unlikely that my estimations of power or mpg would be materially off from any other testing methodology given the consistency of my results and the population of my samples. The power estimation is a little newer to me though results have been pretty consistent but the MPG has proven itself consistent for well over 1000 samples over multiple applications. However, if either of you can provide any hard evidence to the contrary I’m certainly interested and the geek in me would be appreciative.

sounds good man and you are welcome to join us anytime. We just have a good time and we have had the rare auto 8 out there. Braking and handling is a big strenght in this car.
We are all about to give up the dedicated r compounds for tracking and just buy the RE11's instead too. Changing wheels and tires is a PITA at times.

Its funny you should talk about going away from track dedicated wheels/tires. I just went the opposite direction for tires/wheels and in the next week here pads too. I just took off my winter wheels/tires and put on wheels I bought from a member late last year with a new set of Nitto Motivo all seasons. So, I’m rolling around 3 sets, but yeah it does take time and effort that puts a squeeze on life to swap all the time. With track days only being on Friday's from what I can see on the track calendars I will be taking off at least one Friday a month that will probably screw me with backed up work too.

Sorry, totally missed this. I guess I am not exactly too sure the effect of the junk in my oil, but I am going by what the tech at RP said:

"The silicon and sodium, in these amounts, may be evidence of dirt in the oil, or a dirty sample. One thing, though is that the viscosity identifies it as a 20 weight oil, and right on the money for our 5W-20s."

I have continued to use the same oil for just about 1000 miles, so I am going to send in the follow up sample to see how the results compare and see what the extra 1000 shows, hopefully that will be enough miles to gather some significant data on how the RP oil does over time.

Ah, ok. Makes sense. FWIW just about every run I’ve done on RP over the years has it shearing to barely still in grade so I don’t think its the most shear stable oil. But, the couple of engines I’ve seen torn down that used it looked much better than comparable engines torn down that used other oils such as M1. I haven’t used it in the 8 myself yet though. My experience with RP has been in BMWs, Audis, Nissan VQ3.5s, and an EVO VIII.

sounds good man and you are welcome to join us anytime. We just have a good time and we have had the rare auto 8 out there. Braking and handling is a big strenght in this car.
We are all about to give up the dedicated r compounds for tracking and just buy the RE11's instead too. Changing wheels and tires is a PITA at times.

I realize we're off topic, but this is what I like to hear!

The feel of the 8 is so good that I go to track days to tune my tires and suspension to street conditions, and since the 8 is underpowered, I tuned the suspension to light wheels, and tires.

I'm running a lowly Hankook Ventus V12 225/40r18 that weighs 23#, and is pretty good for a street tire that gives some predictable grip on the track. In RE11's I'd probably have a little more dry grip and 2# heavier.

I noticed that Continental ExtremeContact DW is way lighter, tested at 1.01 G dry skid, and I'm looking forward to tracking on them with a 4# lighter weight.

I don't dream of having a supercar even if I could afford it, but I like to feel the 8 at the limit, and tweak the tires and me; I don't want to program any sense of extreme grip into my brain with R comp, since my subconsious might forget which tire I'm on.