I'm sure you'll let me know if this is a silly question. I've been reading all the flooding threads and this is clearly much more of an issue than it should be for a $30,000 car. Even guys who know better get sucked in. So... with all the programming that's gone into the car, why doesn't Mazda program a cold shutdown sequence that leans out the F/A to zero until the engine stops? No more flooding...

You're preaching to the choir. I'm sure we all agree that the flooding issue is the single most annoying downside to the 8. IMHO more than the HP issue. No one that doesn't have an 8 will know to follow this procedure, much less really follow it. I will not valet my car or park in a downtown lot that collects your keys so they can pack the most cars onto a small lot. Even if you explain about the procedure, will they follow it? I don't know of any other car that suffers from this problem. Note, I never owned a deisel. And I can't believe it's not in the manual, it's on some quick read brochure. Did Mazda not know about this til late in the delivery process. Something this important deserves a big red remove by consumer only sticker on the steering wheel as well as a very prominent placement in the manual. That said, I'm the only one that drives the car and instead of letting it idle to warmth, I drive around the block and then pull back in my driveway if I need to do a short move (I don't remember what exactly Mazda calls it). So it comes in handy when my addiction of driving the 8 needs feeding. I pretend to "need" to move the car and once it gets warmed up, I do a couple of WOTs before going home. Very relaxing. My wife doesn't know that half the time I took making sure it was fully warmed was having fun. Maybe that contributes to my low MPG.


On a related note, since there's no other cars that need to be idled to warmth before shutting down, and the 8 is said to get piss-poor mpg at idle (I know all cars get bad mpg at idle, while parked, no miles at all, but the 8 is said to be a real hog at idle), the EPA estimates should be downgraded to include this unusual requirement.

Are you joking? Lean it out to Zero until the engine stops? Do you mean until it stops for good, because that's what you'd end up with eventually. Rotaries are more sensitive to detonation than piston engines.

I mean, I can see where you're going with that, but leaning it out just isn't the right answer. Yes, though, something more automated would be nice.

hey i are going to be a rx-8 owner pretty soon, i been notice this flooding issue for quite some time here, and i understand a little but for other that may not can you just explaind with alot of details what you have to do to not have this problem?...thanks...

It is in the manual

Originally posted by B-Nez
Are you joking? Lean it out to Zero until the engine stops? Do you mean until it stops for good, because that's what you'd end up with eventually. Rotaries are more sensitive to detonation than piston engines.

I knew somebody would know why that's a silly idea. I don't know much about what causes a firing chamber to detonate or the kind of damage it could do. There are still opportunities for shutting it down more safely - like automatically reving to 3k for a few seconds to warm the chambers up and then leaning the a/f to a less rich condition before shutdown. Besides throwing less gas in the engine, it would be cool to see the look on the parking valet's face as he freaks out. :D I think the engineers at Mazda could work out the details for something, anything, that's better than what we got now.

Originally posted by Astor
It is in the manual
Not really, Astor. The manual has an "emergency" procedure for starting the car when its flooded (which I recently had to use - see my post: Flooded... Emergency Start Procedure Let Me Down (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17608)), and there is a separate "Quick Start" guide that the dealerships give which discusses the "short move" procedure, but they don't join the two together for some reason. I think Mazda struggles with this issue and that might explain why the short-move procedure is not really in the manual.

People are telling me that my tow tomorrow and the de-flooding will be paid by Mazda. If so, they're spending a lot of money on this to keep it a non-issue for their dealers, because I don't see how my failing to follow the short-move procedure is a "materials and workmanship" issue (unlike my November Seat Belt Debacle (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14232), which I believe was caused by a non-standard buckle). My sense of it is that there are difficult technical issues here that we're not understanding. Wakeech mentioned that the mounting of the spark plugs on the side of the engine makes them prone to fouling -- that sounds like a plausible theory. I suspect the placement of the plugs is a huge issue, so they needed to put them there, and if they are there, they tend to foul.

No one has more of a right to be pissed off than me at this particular moment in time about the flooding issue. Tomorrow will be my third day without my baby. In my mind, so far anyway, it's not got me too crazy. I'm not real happy about the difficulty of finding a rotary mechanic during a holiday weekend, but I'm not working very much either this week, so it's not particulary fair to be pissed off at people for wanting to take a few days off. I'm fairly sure I could have gotten a loaner car if I had asked for one.

The service guy I spoke to about the car said that he didn't have a Mazda tech available and that the RX-8 was a "specialty vehicle." Yes, I know. In fact, that's really a big reason why I wanted to own it. We'll get it figured out... give it some time. The list of things wrong with this car is really quite short compared to the other list I've got.

The biggest issue is that the trailing spark plugs fire before the leading spark plugs at startup and idle. The trailing spark plugs have a very small hole to fire through and are set back quite far in that hole shrouding the spark pretty heavily. This alone causes the plugs to foul easier than the leading plugs and now we complicate the matter by having them fire first at idle and startup. Also unlike the RX-7's the RX-8 does not use wasted spark mode which fires the leading plugs twice as much. They just need to go back to the old way or spint the engine over faster. Everytime you get in the car press the pedal all the way to the floor (whether flooded or not) and crank it. Let it turn over for a few seconds and then release your foot. This will also cut down on the number of flooding issues.

Detonation DOES NOT HURT a non forced induction engine bad. ALL of the rotaries that are destroyed from detonation have forced induction. The added temperature extremes and greater pressures of forced induction are what really hurt the engine during detonation.

Originally posted by rotarygod
The biggest issue is that the trailing spark plugs fire before the leading spark plugs at startup and idle. The trailing spark plugs have a very small hole to fire through and are set back quite far in that hole shrouding the spark pretty heavily. This alone causes the plugs to foul easier than the leading plugs and now we complicate the matter by having them fire first at idle and startup.
This is exactly why you must be sure and redline your Renesis often - to help keep that trailing hole clean.
Originally posted by rotarygod
Detonation DOES NOT HURT a non forced induction engine bad. ALL of the rotaries that are destroyed from detonation have forced induction.
Absolutely true. However, I also took into consideration that he's talking about leaning beyond the onset of detonation and going to the point that the motor dies. Surely, that's gotta be pretty bad, too?

This is a great thread for people like me who own the car but really do not understand the flooding issue throughly.

since reading this board i usually do not take the 8 for short drives, and if i have to move a short distance; like going to the gas station from my house i will get to the gas station and idle the car for couple of minutes before shut down.

I wish there was a solution for this so that I would worry less when my father takes out the 8 and for those random cases i might just forgot. Someone mentioned a Turbo Timer.. dunno how that would work though.

Originally posted by Shocka
This is a great thread for people like me who own the car but really do not understand the flooding issue throughly.

since reading this board i usually do not take the 8 for short drives, and if i have to move a short distance; like going to the gas station from my house i will get to the gas station and idle the car for couple of minutes before shut down.

I wish there was a solution for this so that I would worry less when my father takes out the 8 and for those random cases i might just forgot. Someone mentioned a Turbo Timer.. dunno how that would work though.

Just a note:

There IS a Mazda mandated fix for the flooding issue!!!

Several weeks ago, my car was having the alignment "tweaked" for the next autocross, and my dealer asked if I had all the updates. I thought I did, but upon further checking, they found I was due the upgraded oil pan AND the "hotter" leading spark plugs FOR THE FLOODING ISSUE!

Mazda has let ALL of their dealer network know, that if a customer complains of "flooding" or "hard to start" issues, to put in these plugs under warranty.

Ask them.....

Originally posted by tpryor
Just a note:

There IS a Mazda mandated fix for the flooding issue!!!

Several weeks ago, my car was having the alignment "tweaked" for the next autocross, and my dealer asked if I had all the updates. I thought I did, but upon further checking, they found I was due the upgraded oil pan AND the "hotter" leading spark plugs FOR THE FLOODING ISSUE!

Mazda has let ALL of their dealer network know, that if a customer complains of "flooding" or "hard to start" issues, to put in these plugs under warranty.

Ask them.....

great to know tpryor! thanks for the information. Perhaps a mod should start a RX-8 Update Thread and leave it sticky or something like that.

Yep good to know. I wonder how a hotter leading plug will make a difference since the trailing plugs fire first at startup. Hmm.....?

I definitely agree with the redline every time comment. They are meant to rev.

Originally posted by tpryor
Just a note:

There IS a Mazda mandated fix for the flooding issue!!! ... they found I was due the upgraded oil pan AND the "hotter" leading spark plugs FOR THE FLOODING ISSUE!

Mazda has let ALL of their dealer network know, that if a customer complains of "flooding" or "hard to start" issues, to put in these plugs under warranty.

Ask them.....

I don't recall reading that in any of the service bulletins (http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/index.html) . It would be nice to know, for example, what VIN numbers still require the spark plug upgrades. I'm wondering if my dealer, who is still doesn't comprehend the need for 5w-20 oil, has a clue. It would be disappointing if official Mazda warranty repair updates were communicated to dealers via channels outside the service bulletins.

Originally posted by bernieunger
I don't recall reading that in any of the service bulletins (http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/index.html) . It would be nice to know, for example, what VIN numbers still require the spark plug upgrades. I'm wondering if my dealer, who is still doesn't comprehend the need for 5w-20 oil, has a clue. It would be disappointing if official Mazda warranty repair updates were communicated to dealers via channels outside the service bulletins.

I asked that very question, and they said Mazda did not want to publish a Service Bulletin for this. They were notifying the dealers through the normal communications "channels" (whatever that means), but it WAS an official Mazda communication.

And, it was the bottom two plugs, maybe they are the trailing??

Originally posted by rotarygod
The biggest issue is that the trailing spark plugs fire before the leading spark plugs at startup and idle. The trailing spark plugs have a very small hole to fire through and are set back quite far in that hole shrouding the spark pretty heavily.


This pic will illustrate the above statement by Rotarygod.

This shows the relationship between leading and trailing spark plug exposure. If plugs were fitted in this housing (12A), the leading (bigger hole) spark plug would be visibly exposed. The trailing would not.

Thanks for the pic! Now imagine how you are supposed to fire anything through that, especially when the plug is set back by 3/8". It just makes much more sense to fire the leading plug first, at least on startup. Why they fire the trailing first at all is beyond me. That's why it is called "trailing".

Just for illustrative purposes, the trailing hole is about twice the width of the plug gap! The center ceramic electrode of the plug itself takes up much of that area while the plugs fire to the sides. Some plugs have a small ground strap that comes up over the electrode but even still now the spark has to go around the blockage before it does anything useful. You can not enlarge that hole though due to its location in relation to how far along in the compression cycle the rotor is at when the apex seals cross the hole. You don't want pressure bleeding back around the apex seal into the following chamber. The leading location size does not matter near as much.

Mazda: You guys drink a little too much Sake over there on the job!

Oh yeah, the top plugs are trailing and the bottom ones are leading.

Another angle.

This may seem dumb, but what exactly happens when you press teh accelerator to the floor before starting? Won't that dump more gas into it?

Is it me, or is everyone kind of freaking out unneccessarily about this "flooding issue"? According to the polls on this board, over 80% of us have NEVER flooded our engine.

As far as I'm concerned, this isn't an issue. Just follow some very simple rules - don't start your car, let it run for 30 seconds and shut it off (which I would never do anyway, even with a piston engine) - and you'll be fine.

What we're talking about here is the "possibility" of flooding, not an actual flooding issue.

Those of you who have actually flooded your engine, have a flooding issue. And, if it continues, you SHOULD contact Mazda and complain. BUT, those of us who have never flooded our engines, have no grounds for complaint.

I'll get off my soapbox now. As you were.....

I don't think I'm overreacting...

I don't think folks are overreacting. If it hadn't been for this forum, I wouldn't have guessed (having never previously owned a rotary) such a problem existed. In 3 test drives, not one dealer has ever mentioned it. You'd have to dig AND know something about rotary engines to understand the real importance of the section in the owner's manual about restarting a flooded engine.

Maybe on my next test drive, I'll turn it off right after starting and see how the dealer reacts...

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
I don't think I'm overreacting...

That's a sad picture. When will they get it back to you? Nice looking car though. I do like the clear side markers.

And no snow on the ground? In January? That doesn't bode well for the rest of winter.

Originally posted by Q121825

Maybe on my next test drive, I'll turn it off right after starting and see how the dealer reacts...

I was pretty cocky before Tuesday. I really thought that knowing what to do when the car flooded was the key. It seems that there is no reliable parachute... just don't do it.

Or, go ahead and give it a shot. Lets all just drive the car five feet and shut it down, then post our experiences... I'll go first... ok, your turn... ;)

They tell me the car probably won't get looked at until Monday. That's about a week without the car. The whole experience just proves that I love my wife more than my car. It's close, but she wins.

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
They tell me the car probably won't get looked at until Monday. That's about a week without the car. The whole experience just proves that I love my wife more than my car. It's close, but she wins.

ROTFL (about the wife that is). Damn. That's a long time, but it is the holidaze.



Or, go ahead and give it a shot. Lets all just drive the car five feet and shut it down, then post our experiences... I'll go first... ok, your turn... ;)


Heh. I don't mind doing it on a test drive just to see how they react. But I'm not even going to tempt fate with my own...

Originally posted by jonalan
Is it me, or is everyone kind of freaking out unneccessarily about this "flooding issue"? According to the polls on this board, over 80% of us have NEVER flooded our engine.

As far as I'm concerned, this isn't an issue.

That still leaves 20% who have. That is significant. Would you take a medicine that had a 20% chance of hurting you? No. what percentage of other cars have 20% of the owners experiencing flooding issues? If yours hasn't flooded feel lucky. It's just a matter of time. It will at least once someday.

Originally posted by rotarygod
That still leaves 20% who have. That is significant.
You're right, that is significant. However, my point is, I personally can't complain to Mazda about a flooding issue, because my car has never flooded. The only statistics (and I use that term lightly, because we're only suppose to believe half of what we hear on the internet) I have, is what I read on this forum.

Originally posted by rotarygod
Would you take a medicine that had a 20% chance of hurting you? No.
Bad analogy, flooding an engine won't hurt anyone.

Originally posted by rotarygod
If yours hasn't flooded feel lucky. It's just a matter of time. It will at least once someday.
Gee, thanks! I'm sorry you feel that way, but I hope not.

I just test drove an RX8 and here is what I did . . .the salesman asked me to pull the car around front while he went into the dealer for a few minutes so I had some time to play

I started the car, pulled it about 50 feet and then after about 1 minute (when I remembered to test the car for flooding :D ) I turned the car off.

I then waited a minute and then started the car and it started right up, then after that I shut it off again almost right away and then tried to start the car and again it started right up . . .

The temp was about 48 degree's . . .

I might be test driving another car soon so if I do, next time I'll start it and not even wait a minute, I'll just shut it off right away and then I'll report back here.

Once the car reaches temperature, it apparently won't flood. It stays warm for several hours. The small size of the RENESIS makes it heat quickly.

Originally posted by jonalan
Bad analogy, flooding an engine won't hurt anyone.


Gee, thanks! I'm sorry you feel that way, but I hope not.

True the analogy was bad but the point was made. I've had several RX-7's over the years and my 2 closest friends have also. We have all had flooding issues. Some are worse than others but every car I've had has experienced it at some time or another. That is just something that the rotary is more prone to. I know why they flood easily and know what to do to remedy it. Mazda doesn't though and that is the issue. The Renesis is even more prone to flooding than the RX-7's for several very big reasons. feel lucky. I hope yours never floods but if it does one day, don't be surprised. It may be a week or it may be 2 years but at some point in time it will flood at least once.

Originally posted by rotarygod
I've had several RX-7's over the years and my 2 closest friends have also. We have all had flooding issues.
When your engine did flood, was it something that could have been avoided, or did it happen for no apparent reason (other than it's a rotary)?

Usually on the older cars you are suffering from issues like leaky fuel injectors and other little problems. Sometimes though I would just flood them even when there were no mechanical problems. The easiest way to flood it is to crank it over and then let off the key just before the engine catches. There is usually fuel in the engine by now but the engine has stopped rotating and it is just sitting there. Even the older rotaries are easy to flood when cold. The key is warm shutdown in regards to this. I have had that happen on all 3 generation RX-7's. Typically if you are careful and pay attention it won't flood. It still happens to me every once in a while though. Even when it does now, I almost never have to push it. That is a rare case. The Renesis ignition system is the culprit. The more I think about it the more I feel that the side exhaust port location doesn't hurt as bad as everyone thinks in regards to excess fuel expulsion. It took a while but I just had to learn the behavior of my cars. Other people can flood my cars much easier than I can. I just know how to treat them.

I recently experienced the dreaded no start (flooded) problem. After having the car towed to the dealer, they sent for new plugs from Mazda. It's my understanding that these new plugs are slotted to reduce the tendency to flood. Has anyone else had this "fix" done to their car?

Does flooding only happen in colder temps, or can it happen when it's in the 65+ outside? Has anyone in S. Florida or SoCal had flooding issues? I haven't flooded my engine yet and i sometimes only travel 1/2 a mile to the tech building (at my school). I try to idle a minute or 2 but sometimes i'm late and have to shut it off cold. However, i've never shut if off cold when it was less than 55 degrees. No problems yet, but i'm probably jinxing it...

Peripheral Exhaust Port (RX-7):
• poor emissions
• easy to unflood

Side Exhaust Port (RX-8):
• good emissions
• difficult to unflood (excess liquid fuel is trapped)


Mazda may have to redesign the Renesis to solve both problems.

I wish I didn't have to keep typing this every other post. It's the ignition system! The trailing plugs fire before the leading plugs at startup. That is what causes the engine to flood easier not the side ports. The lack of wasted spark doesn't help either. While they may contribute a little something to the issue, the side ports are not the main problem. I wrote the damn flooding article. It's the ignition system.

I'd like to see top quality posts repeated in the FAQ section.

Originally posted by Q121825
I don't think folks are overreacting. If it hadn't been for this forum, I wouldn't have guessed (having never previously owned a rotary) such a problem existed. In 3 test drives, not one dealer has ever mentioned it. You'd have to dig AND know something about rotary engines to understand the real importance of the section in the owner's manual about restarting a flooded engine.

Maybe on my next test drive, I'll turn it off right after starting and see how the dealer reacts...

Here is a real-life experience situation as to how *I* found out about the flooding issue....

I don't own an RX-8 yet, but I found out about the flooding issue a couple weeks back right *before* a test drive...

I had requested a test drive of an AT RX-8, and the salesman had to go back and bring it around front...

Well, to make a long story short, about 10 minutes had gone by (I though he took the drive solo for a moment) and finally the salesman came back and said there might be a problem...

As it turns out, they only had one AT on the lot (they had 26 MTs as they are obviously by far the more popular choice), and they could not get it to start.

He then explained to me about the flooding issue, and that someone must have quickly moved the car without properly running it a few minutes before shutting it off again... Obviously, he was quite embarrased about the situation, but I viewed it as a lesson learned to prevent me from making the mistake myself later on.

To me, it is an inconvenience of sorts, but even though my salesman probably thinks he lost a sale... I found it a bit comforting that he *knew* what he was talking about, and was honest about the situation... So I am still strongly leaning towards buying, despite the potential "fault".

---Dave S

How about complaining to the Better business bureau. I think it's www.BBB.org
With many people complaining about the flooding issue, Mazda might issue a recall. For a 30k car, we should never have to be worried about flooding issues. By making Mazda do a recall, they might actually have a real fix and not just hotter plugs.

Originally posted by Haus
How about complaining to the Better business bureau. I think it's www.BBB.org
With many people complaining about the flooding issue, Mazda might issue a recall. For a 30k car, we should never have to be worried about flooding issues. By making Mazda do a recall, they might actually have a real fix and not just hotter plugs.
I've been without my car for five days now as it waits at the dealership to be deflooded, and I don't view this as a BBB problem. The BBB handles unfair business practices. Although my holiday-time service has been poor, the dealership is hardly cheating anyone.

My advice is that we keep posting our experiences. They're listening... I'm sure of it, because the issue is causing them to lose sales. My neighbors watched the car being towed away, the guy in the tow truck asked me what happened, and everyone at work heard about why I had to take Friday off.

I have no idea if the guy knows what he's talking about but there's a "consumer advocate" radio show that's run by a guy named Tom Martino. The show's out of Denver but it's syndicated. He maintains that if you have a Corporate Level issue with a Japanese/Korean car manufacturer, forget it!! He said it's like a "loss of face" thing or something but that you'll never get the Corporate people to admit that there's a problem.

Obviously this is not entirely true since Mazda, Toyota, etc., all do recalls when they have to. However, I wonder if they might not be a bit slower to admit "a fault" such as the firing sequence problem on start-up. Take country of origin out of the picture and you've still got Corporate reputation on the line when you're dealing with an issue like this one. I mean for them to admit it's a design flaw on a crucial part (the engine) which they discovered after the fact is asking them to admit one hell of a lot.

I suspect they'll always downplay the flooding issue by burying it in the manual and I suspect that they'll continue handling issues such as replacement plugs via "normal channels" rather than through formal dealer-notifications.

I've not flooded my car and I never mind jammin' to the stereo for a couple of minutes when it's cold-idling but I am a bit concerned about the day when I have to leave it somewhere long enough for it to entirely cool down for service of some type. I've got my doubts about a non-8-owner caring enough (or understanding enough) to let the engine heat up a bit before killing it (or risking having it die.)

Originally posted by rotarygod
I wish I didn't have to keep typing this every other post. It's the ignition system! The trailing plugs fire before the leading plugs at startup. That is what causes the engine to flood easier not the side ports. The lack of wasted spark doesn't help either. While they may contribute a little something to the issue, the side ports are not the main problem. I wrote the damn flooding article. It's the ignition system.

why do you think that mazda did not find this a problem during all the testing that was done leading up to production cars? why was it not reported as an issue by any one of the many reporters who drove the car for testing prior to launch, say at laguna seca? since these were also pre-production cars, one answer could be that the problem didn't happen in pre-production cars. so then what changed? to find an answer to that we could ask if there is a flooding issue in the JDM cars. if there is not than perhaps the ignition system works just fine with the original tuning, but with the (coining a phrase here) "cat-longevity tune" the extra fuel dumped into the mix for cooling combined with the ignition setup is the culprit. something along the lines of canzoomer's leaner tune may help alleviate the flooding issue as a side benefit to it's intended purpose.

I'm sorry I should have been more precise with my post. When I went on the BBB site, there was a link to automobile recalls. Here, it will post all official recalls for every car manufacturer and it also allows you to post a complaint. This site is run by the government and the more complaints they receive regarding the RX8 then Mazda might actually have to answer to the govt. The site is www.recalls.gov and click on motor vehicle recalls. Check it out it has lots of good information.

Originally posted by Haus
This site is run by the government and the more complaints they receive regarding the RX8 then Mazda might actually have to answer to the govt.

I don't believe the flooding issue would qualify as a recallable issue with the feds, even if they receive many complaints. Just for kicks, I went through the complaint process. When you get to the "detail" section, you get asked for the following information:

Incident Date :
Was there a Fire :
Number of Fatalities:
Was there a Crash :
Number of Failures:
Property Damage :
Number of Persons Injured:

My guess is that complaints by RX-8 owners about the inconvenience caused by "flooding" are going no where on this site. They're likely to urge you to contact an attorney. A better bet would be the State lemon laws or consumer fraud laws ... but I wouldn't hold my breath on those either, particularly if Mazda is handling the flooding complaints under warranty. In Illinois, as I recall (no pun intended), you need to be without use of the car for 30 business days within the first year on four separate repair incidents before the dealer has to buy back the car -- good luck on that one. (BTW, I'm currently at 3 days, 2 incidents.)

Still, if you feel so inclined, I think the place to start is with the State Attorneys General. They pretty much all have a consumer fraud division, and "consumer fraud" is loosley defined. It would be interesting to know what they have to say.

Addendum:
After a bit more digging, I actually found many investigations on this site of "engine stalling" problems. Hmmm. Maybe the man makes a point.

Zoom 44, I concur with your idea that Mazda should have caught this problem. As for testing and reporters driving at Leguna, the cars were probably warmed up fully and the problem didn't show it's head. Have we heard from many Japanese owners and do they have the same problem? There has to be more short drive cycles and possible cold shut down in Tokyo. .. Wondering if it is more prone to US market or worldwide. Rotarygod.. if there was a fuel delay on initial cranking, as well as a higher speed starter, it could offer a partial fix. Your posts are quite well written and insightful..

Thanks. I try to give some possible easy solutions. I think the problems are fairly obvious but for the life of me I just don't know what Mazda was thinking when they went to this system.

Originally posted by zoom44
something along the lines of canzoomer's leaner tune may help alleviate the flooding issue as a side benefit to it's intended purpose.
Where can we buy Canzoomer stock?

Too bad Canzoomer only leans out above 5000 rpm. Imagine a starter that could get there!

Mazda's thinking.. Miller Cycle Millenia, 3rd Generation Rx7.. This is a great innovative car company. Unforunately, they do so much better when they design the *un hi tech*. When they build the Miata and Protege'... it's somewhat like the third generation RX7.. if the car had cost 70k they might have made all the needed changes... Are we here again.. totally unique car concept, but in a market segment (30K), where it can compete with Honda, Nissan and Toyota... ??

HEY!!!! YOU THINK I SHOULD BE CONCERNE CUZ I WORK 2 1/2 MILES FROM MY HOUSE ?????? IT ONLY TAKE ME 2 MINUTES TO GET THERE................

STOP YELLING!!!!! ;) If you haven't had any problems yet then you'll probably be fine. Just be on the lookout.

oopps!!!! sorry....:) but i don't know yet i had it since saturday, and what you think i should do?????

Do you have an alternative vehicle you could drive? That short duration isn't good for any car: you don't truly get up to full operating temps. Fuel economy may be quite poor, your exhaust could collect a lot of moisture, your oil could become somewhat diluted by fuel due to such a high percentage of your time being spent in enrichment mode. I could go on but I don't want to depress you.

Originally posted by RX-jimenez
oopps!!!! sorry....:) but i don't know yet i had it since saturday, and what you think i should do?????

Take the long way to work, so you'll have more time to enjoy the car, and you'll get it warmed up in the process!

Two things you could do.. enjoy your car and keep up with your studies of the English language...

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
I don't believe the flooding issue would qualify as a recallable issue with the feds, even if they receive many complaints.

Addendum:
After a bit more digging, I actually found many investigations on this site of "engine stalling" problems. Hmmm. Maybe the man makes a point.

It a tough call, not starting is not the same as engine stalling. I'm under the belief that recalls are always safety related. The only scenario that comes to mind that involves safety is where:

You start the car;
Drive a short distance and kill the engine by accident (brake hard to avoid an accident and forgot to clutch) in a dangerous spot (e.g., an intersection); and
Can't move out of the dangerous intersection because you can't start the car.

Because of the above scenario, I do consider this a safety issue.

Originally posted by tpryor
Just a note:

There IS a Mazda mandated fix for the flooding issue!!!

Several weeks ago, my car was having the alignment "tweaked" for the next autocross, and my dealer asked if I had all the updates. I thought I did, but upon further checking, they found I was due the upgraded oil pan AND the "hotter" leading spark plugs FOR THE FLOODING ISSUE!

Mazda has let ALL of their dealer network know, that if a customer complains of "flooding" or "hard to start" issues, to put in these plugs under warranty.
Ask them.....

All plugs are the same temperature during a cold start - the same temperature as the rest of the engine. Hotter plugs are only hotter once the engine has been running. If indeed hotter plugs are a fix, then it would seem to imply that the cooler plugs are getting excessively dirty in general use.

Originally posted by Habeeb
Two things you could do.. enjoy your car and keep up with your studies of the English language...

well sorry, i try my best, but if you really don't like it, just don't read it......

Originally posted by RX-jimenez
oopps!!!! sorry....:) but i don't know yet i had it since saturday, and what you think i should do?????
2 miles? Hell, jog to work. Or ride a bike.

Originally posted by RX-jimenez
oopps!!!! sorry....:) but i don't know yet i had it since saturday, and what you think i should do?????

Drive the car, but keep an eye on the temp. gauge before you shut it down. Ideally, it should be about the middle. I find that my car is up to operating temperature after about three minutes. Also, in Texas, it should not be the problem it is in colder climates.

COOL!! I LOVE THIS CAR, I HAVE IT SINCE SATURDAY I CAN'T FIND NOTHING I DON'T LIKE, I WAS A LITTLE SCARED SINCE I HAD TO RIDE 65 MILES FROM THE DEALER, AND IT ONLY HAD 6 MILES ON IT, BUT I WAS STOPING ALL THE TIME AND STILL DIDN'T WHEN MORE THEN 4000 RPM ON IT, STILL HAD TO RUN 65 TO 70 FOR AT LEAST 20 MINUTES WHEN I STOP, BUT I DON'T THINK IT WILL BE A PROBLEM...RIGHT?? I JUST DON'T WANT TO GO MORE THAN 5000 RPM UNTIL THE 600 MILES...SUSPENSION IS GREAT, I JUST CAN'T GET OF THE CAR AND THEN FIND AN EXCUSE TO GET BACK ON....:)

The question still remains, will this cause flooding:

1) Start car, car is cold
2) Drive car a bit, car is not yet warm
3) Screw up pulling away at an intersection in 1st and stall the car

If this simple scenario can cause a towable flooding scenario, this very definitely does qualify as a NHTSA safety issue and IMHO is a deal-breaker for me as to whether to buy the 8 or not.

So, I know I can't start the car, back it out of the garage and shut it off.

But if I back out and accidentally stall the car when shifting from reverse to 1st after backing out of the driveway, is the 8 dead until it can get towed and "unflooded" by the dealer, perhaps at my cost?!?!

Ok, so I've read this thread, and BillK's statement above sums it up great. I have a question for all of you engineer/mechanically minded people:

How much of the cold shut-off flooding is actually a direct function of temperature? If a warm (enough) engine will not flood, why not install block heaters? Or is there something else?

Before you all flame me crispy about how dumb a guy would have to be to buy a $30K car and have to keep it plugged in all the time and other impracticalities, I know, I know... I'm just trying to understand the idea. And so 8s in Arizona in the summer CAN be driven a short distance and not flood? Or Hawaii... that's the answer! I'm packing...

And actually, is this really gasoline flooding? Or is it oil that is fouling the spark plugs?

My old two-stroke motorcycle used to "foul-out" once in a while, and I could usually take out the plug affected and wipe it off and dry it up and get things running. Don't suppose that would work out in the sticks (or my driveway)on the Mazda? How hard are those plugs to find?

Originally posted by Icanrel-8
How hard are those plugs to find?

They can't be found at all.
NGK is the ONLY manufacturer at the moment and they don't even acknowledge them as a proper part number.
Dealers must order them direct from Mazda and no aftermarket suppliers can, as yet, acquire them.
I got a second set from my local dealer. They took a week and actually came from a European Mazda distributor as did my oil filter.

Originally posted by BillK
The question still remains, will this cause flooding:

1) Start car, car is cold
2) Drive car a bit, car is not yet warm
3) Screw up pulling away at an intersection in 1st and stall the car

If this simple scenario can cause a towable flooding scenario, this very definitely does qualify as a NHTSA safety issue and IMHO is a deal-breaker for me as to whether to buy the 8 or not.

So, I know I can't start the car, back it out of the garage and shut it off.

But if I back out and accidentally stall the car when shifting from reverse to 1st after backing out of the driveway, is the 8 dead until it can get towed and "unflooded" by the dealer, perhaps at my cost?!?!

Yes, this is an unanswered question. I have never flooded my car, and now with reading about the members here that have, I am extremely cautious not to let my foot slip off the clutch. Mazda needs to fix this!! IMHO it is irresponsible and negligent to sell a car that can not be started easily just because one killed the engine while it was still cold.

That said, does anyone that's flooded their car know if there's a safe time period immediately after a cold shut down that one can easily start the car? My understanding of fouled plugs is that the plugs are wet due to oil or gas or both, and because liguid gas/oil does not burn well, ignition does not occur. If that is so then the longer one waits the better--more time for the liquid to evaporate. But I've taught my teenager how to drive a stick this summer in my 8, and I'm sure early on in the teaching we stalled and immediately restarted many times before the engine was fully warmed up. With my increased awareness of the flooding problem, I would now only attempt to teach someone how to drive my MT 8 after it was fully warmed. The question is, are there other factors involved which would cause the following:

1. Start car;
2. Stall car while still cold; and

3. If started within x minutes, car starts fine, no problems,
If attempt to start after x minutes, car flooded.

red_rx8_red_int:

If I had it to do over again, I would change only one thing. I knew my car was likely flooded when I got home, because my wife told me she had forgotten to warm it up. That being the case, I probably should not have initially tried to start it normally to confirm it was flooded, but instead should have gone right to the emergency start procedure. When I turned the key without first depressing the pedal all the way, I put more gas into the chamber. Were I to have to do it again, I would have pressed my foot to the floor, cranked it for 10 seconds, then tried to start it normally.

I also wonder if my wife started the car by giving it gas, which I never do. For some cars, that's required, and she may have just done it as habit. If so, that's even more fuel in the rotors that should not have been there.

The good news: the car seems to be running well.

One last point. I wonder if it is possible to push start a flooded RX-8. Although this would not work for those of us with automatic transmissions or those of us who are alone with the car, if you have a friend who can help push starting the car may be easier than calling AAA.

Getting back to why I originally started this thread...

I wanted to brainstorm some ideas on what Mazda could have done differently. I think we understand the phenomena of flooding reasonably well - an excess of unburnt gas plus a tiny amount of oil from the seal injectors foul the plugs in certain conditions. Once the plugs refuse to fire, any additional gas getting into the combustion chamber compounds the problem. So, here is my next idea: For some reason Mazda did not orient the engine block so that the plugs are at the top of the combustion chamber. The little holes that expose the spark gap are recessed, horizontal, and, to me, look like they might trap gasoline. If the plugs were on top, those holes would drain more readily, and the gasoline would be less likely to pool and foul the plugs. I presume there is a reason why this is bogus thinking because Mazda's had a lot of time to figure this out and hasn't done it. But still, I don't see what's wrong with my reasoning.

the flooding issue is not an issue.

Originally posted by bernieunger
Getting back to why I originally started this thread...

I wanted to brainstorm some ideas on what Mazda could have done differently. I think we understand the phenomena of flooding reasonably well - an excess of unburnt gas plus a tiny amount of oil from the seal injectors foul the plugs in certain conditions. Once the plugs refuse to fire, any additional gas getting into the combustion chamber compounds the problem. So, here is my next idea: For some reason Mazda did not orient the engine block so that the plugs are at the top of the combustion chamber. The little holes that expose the spark gap are recessed, horizontal, and, to me, look like they might trap gasoline. If the plugs were on top, those holes would drain more readily, and the gasoline would be less likely to pool and foul the plugs. I presume there is a reason why this is bogus thinking because Mazda's had a lot of time to figure this out and hasn't done it. But still, I don't see what's wrong with my reasoning.

I don't think they thought about it. I don't think the problem even existed until the port reflash of the ECU. Only the North America cars have this problem. I have no doubts that Mazda is trying to fix this problem. They've already came out with new plugs, which may or may not completely solve this.

Originally posted by Zio
the flooding issue is not an issue.

That's not helpful. Enough people have had enough trouble. It's a problem.

Originally posted by red_rx8_red_int
I don't think they thought about it.

I think you're right. This should have been on their QA matrix but somebody flubbed.


Originally posted by red_rx8_red_int
I don't think the problem even existed until the port reflash of the ECU. Only the North America cars have this problem.

I know only Americans are complaining. But you may be right. I'd still like to know why the plugs are on the side, though, and whether that's a contributing factor. BTW, other countries get the same horsepower rating. If the reflash is responsible for the reduction in HP, wouldn't they have the same reflash?


Originally posted by red_rx8_red_int
I have no doubts that Mazda is trying to fix this problem. They've already came out with new plugs, which may or may not completely solve this.

Yes, we got their attention. I saw at least one post, though, of somebody who flooded with new plugs, although it's not clear that he flooded with THE new plugs. This begs the question - if the new plugs solves the problem, should we ALL be getting a recall notice? The sense I got from the TBS is that only people with certain driving patterns (short runs, cold weather) will get the plugs. I think Mazda has to be more proactive than that.

Having said all of this, does anybody know exactly what the dealer does to "un-flood" a flooded engine? Seems to me removing the spark plugs and turning the engine over with the gas pedal depressed (or fuel system fuse pulled) should do it. Surely, with all the expertise here, there is a safe "Do It Yourself" fix. I haven't experienced this and I do lots of short runs. The only thing that I do is rev the engine to 3-4,000 RPM's just before shutdown (on advice from my younger son - who is very experienced with Mazda Rotary engines).

Originally posted by DaveT
does anybody know exactly what the dealer does to "un-flood" a flooded engine?
My invoice said they replaced the plugs and reset the codes and that it took them 1.3 hours (if I'm reading it right). Does anyone know what resetting the codes involves? I am guessing it means that they disconnected the battery for a short period of time, but don't know for sure.

I have not tried to reach the plugs from above, but I don't think it's possible to reach the leading plugs except from under the car. That's a problem if the car is dead because you can't drive it up onto ramps. I wonder if just pulling the trailing plugs and letting the car sit for a bit might not do the trick, or at least letting with the plugs removed, then move the car slightly to expose the next chamber, then let it sit some more. Eventually, if it is just fuel in the chambers, it'll evaporate. If the plugs are fouled, however, I think you have to pull em.

Also, you guys with MTs can push or pull start the car, but I don't really know what that involves. I agree: a DIY would be helpful... my dealer says it may be $250 the next time I bring the car in for a deflood.

Originally posted by bernieunger
That's not helpful. Enough people have had enough trouble. It's a problem.

sorry there. I was going for the typical rx8club poster response. I suppose it wouldn't be a problem if you just remembered to warm up the car enough before shutting down, but if you still do that and it floods then I suppose it's a problem.

Originally posted by Zio
the flooding issue is not an issue.

That's got to be the single most ridiculous statement I have ever seen posted here.

Sure, if you're in the roughly 80% of the folks on the board that don't seem to have this issue it might be very easy to say, "I don't get it. What's the big deal?"

Just for discussion sake I had a 1985 Pontiac Fiero that had a screwy computer chip that didn't like temperature or moisture fluctuations. The car stuttered when it was cold and if it was cold and wet it was a 50/50 chance that it was going to stall just getting out of the driveway.

I finally had enough when it stalled in an intersection and a 18 wheeler was coming up from behind at an uncomfortably fast rate of speed and my car was acting like it was gagging on a chicken bone.

So although I don't feel like taking an 80/20 bet with $30,000, I can fully sympathize with those that have the flooding problem since I have gone through a similar situation.