I'm somewhat surprised by the number of reported flooded engines. The Renesis is not as useable as it should be if it has to be run for 5 minutes whenever it is started: not user friendly. How many people have actually fallen foul of this problem?

Hasnt been an issue for me. And I have start/stopped the engine without the warm up a couple times by mistake, but still no flooding.

nope

No problem whatsoever.

actually I didn't personally, but I voted yes, because my dad flooded it when he moved spaces in our driveway.

Mine has kinda flooded, in that it doesn't start immediately on the first crank. However, I've found that it *WILL* start either on a longer first crank, or at the worst, on the second.

If this is really the flooding problem everyone is talking about, then I'm only marginally concerned about it.

Well it's 4:7 at the moment so 50% (approx) of you have had a problem. That's not good. Gosh, this is SO statistically valid. ;)

My office is 2 miles from my house (short trips every day morning and night) -- have had the car 2 1/2 months and have never once have had a flooding problem.

2 miles is enough to warm it up. A start move, start is what causes the problems. It is something that is inheirent with the Rotary, they say it can get worse with time. It has to do with gas getting stuck in the chamber with the spark plugs. There are other threads on this. I always let mine warm up, so no flooding problems, it

Originally posted by Omicron
Mine has kinda flooded, in that it doesn't start immediately on the first crank. However, I've found that it *WILL* start either on a longer first crank, or at the worst, on the second.

If this is really the flooding problem everyone is talking about, then I'm only marginally concerned about it.

No, that's not flooding. If your engine is flooded it won't start at all without taking special measures - described in other threads, and in the manual as well IIRC.

I have *forgot* a couple of times to let mine warm up after moving it around, but have had no issues.

I've shut it off cold several times, no problems

Had mine towed to the dealer monday when it wouldn't start. Flooded...had all plugs replaced, etc...

I was backing out of the garage and it just cut out...kinda scary. I think I flooded it when attempting to crank after it died.

Every morning I take the car out of the garage, then I turn it off and start it again 2-3 minutes later when I'm ready to leave for work. That's been going on for the 5-6 weeks since I bought the car and it hasn't flooded once. I don't know why people think this is a problem.

so.. your motor wont start if you drive your car off with out letting warm up? hmm i was unaware of this! i just start the car up and go... so.. uhh im a bit concerned now

No, it's stopping the engine while it's still cold that can cause flooding.

Jaycee,

I don't think it's a problem, I KNOW it's a problem. I normally don't have my new car towed unless there is a problem.

I had been starting mine and backing out of the garage the same way for 8 weeks before the fateful morning.

I hope it doesn't happen to you, but don't discount others having problems just because you haven't experienced it.

Originally posted by Jaycee
Every morning I take the car out of the garage, then I turn it off and start it again 2-3 minutes later when I'm ready to leave for work. That's been going on for the 5-6 weeks since I bought the car and it hasn't flooded once. I don't know why people think this is a problem.

People think it's a problem because their engines have flooded. If your engine flooded you, too, would think its a problem. Don't belittle those others just because it hasn't (yet) happened to you.

Originally posted by Lensman
I'm somewhat surprised by the number of reported flooded engines. The Renesis is not as useable as it should be if it has to be run for 5 minutes whenever it is started: not user friendly. How many people have actually fallen foul of this problem?

Lesnman, don't be surprised that the problem appears to be so bad. In a forum like this the magnitude of problems tends to get magnified. Think of it like this: Would you expect someone to start a thread entitled "Hey, My Car Didn't Flood!?"

Of course not. So, if there are 1000's of participants in the forum and a few people report this, it looks like a big deal. Those who cars also flooded will jump on and say "Me too!" Those who's cars didn't flood aren't as interested in the thread, so they go to the next thread called "How to pickup chix in a '8."

For this reason, I'd say even the 8 percent currently showing in the poll is high. Everyone who had a flooded car who saw this poll will respond; they want to the world to know their woes. Of those who saw the poll without flooded cars, only some respond and other just passed it by. I wouldn't be a bit surprised in a scientific study if the number were closer to 2 percent.

This is a social phenonmenon that happens in any survey where the audience is self-selected. Those not interested in the topic don't respond, so they appear to be a smaller population than they really are.

it is interesting it doesn't happen all of the time. Rotary engines have always been prone to this problem. But not every engine, not every cold start/shut down incident, obviously. My dealer's tech guy, when pulling it off the truck (when it had been rolled off the truck) started it then killed it before he moved a few inches. After stating "it's just another car" with a smirk on his face. But it started right up. I was wondering what would happen as I watched. It was about 70 degrees that morning.

Originally posted by 8_wannabe
Lesnman, don't be surprised that the problem appears to be so bad. In a forum like this the magnitude of problems tends to get magnified. Think of it like this: Would you expect someone to start a thread entitled "Hey, My Car Didn't Flood!?"

Of course not. So, if there are 1000's of participants in the forum and a few people report this, it looks like a big deal.

You point is valid. However, from a more objective point of view it's just as important to consider that in any other group of motorists, the incidence of this particular failure mode (unrecoverable flooding after cold-stop) probably approaches zero. This apparently is a well-known issue inherent in the design of the rotary, and it seems clear that it is beneficial to follow the recommended guidelines - No Cold Shutoffs - religiously.

For the uninitiated, I can understand that this might seem like a big usability issue. I don't think I would find it particularly inconvenient, but impressing the need on other drivers of the vehicle would probably be the sticking point. I might consider putting a label somewhere advising against cold shutdowns.

I'm quite sure this is a real problem. I've turned off ignition once when the engine was cold and... it flooded. I tried all the tricks mentioned here and elsewhere on the net and couldn't get it to start, even a week later.

Fortunately a local mechanic was able to remove and clean the plugs, and only then would my car start.

I've spoken to a few dealerships since. They're all familiar with it happening, two mentioned it happening on their own lots. This could be most common among the people who aren't active on the board?

What could Mazda do? I guess anything that would keep the engine running despite the drivers intention to shuit down the engine would be a fire risk? Perhaps a big panel light saying "Careful - Engine cold"?

Get a remote engine starter !

I have it intalled on my current car that is an automatic transmission and have been extremely happy with it for over a year now. Great for winter as you can have your car warmed up before you actually go out and drive off. It shuts off after 10 minutes automatically, which I think is enough to bring the engine to optimum operating temprature. I hardly ever crank up the engine manually now. I love this thing!

Don't know whether it can be installed in a manual transmission car (like u must leave the car in Neutral everytime). Does anyone one have it on a manual?

More importantly, has anyone tried to install one on their manual transmission RX-8?

does engine flooding happen more often in colder weathers? For example, has anyone in socal, az, or florida ever flooded their engines?

The fuel injected rotaries have always been prone to flooding. Not all cars, but all years. It does grow more frequent with mileage and age. Common with the second generation was injectors leaking down and flooding the chambers, especially on the *short drive*. Buildup in the injectors from poor quality gas would eventually cause them not to seal. When the motor was shut off, especially cold, the pressure on the line would push gas into the chambers, causing flooding if you tried to start the car within a few mins. Yes, the first cold snap would always bring 7's to the shop *on the hook*. One thing that always bothered me with the 3rd generation cars was the 250 rpm cranking speed. That's too slow and contributes, IMO to some of the flooding issues. Anway, keeping the car in a good state of tune, i.e. frequent change of spark plugs, not shutting it down cold and the occasional long trip are the best way to prevent flooding. It will remain to be seen how the 8 handles this issue when they get some miles on them.

Booyah!! I've just joined the ranks of the flooded. Dealership towed it in and are replacing the plugs for me, and I should have it back on the road by tomorrow. Got a 2003 Mazda6 as a loaner. (NOTE, this is the second trip to the shop for the car. I had to take it in a few weeks ago to have a bad ECU replaced).

Regarding the flooding:

I've had a couple of first gen '7's for over 10 years, so out of habit, warm up before taking it out regardless of the trip. With the '8, I didn't think it was as necessary. However, I was in a rush, was going on a long trip, and didn't let it warm up this morning. Stalled it pulling out of the driveway, and I managed to flood it.

Now, neither of my first gens would have flooded with this scenario. It simply a hit or miss thing, and I happend to have bad luck this morning or are '8s super-easy to flood?

The way I look at it, anybody that would bother to read/post to the forum is more car conscience then the average consumer. I doubt most people even read the manual, let alone follow it to the letter. If it floods that easily, shouldn't driveways be packed w/ flooded '8's these days?

um... whats flooding? How do you flood the car? sorry dont know stuff like that

:( Being a manly man I went out a couple of weeks ago and started up to go get some coffee. Given that I live on a hill, and equally importantly that I had not had any coffee I stalled the engine. Five minutes later, after burning up the battery cables I got it started. Idiosyncratic?? No, just cranky!!

so what long term effects does flooding your engine have? if you get the plugs replaced, should everything be okay afterwards?

Thanks to everyone who has voted: very interesting. All that really concerns me is that one day I will inevitably stall the engine when it's cooler than optimum and I won't be able to restart it. Not ideal but I can cope...

Add me to the list of flood victims. A short move in the driveway on Monday and she's been dead ever since. I followed the directions in the owners manual to no avail. A tow to the dealer tomorrow. Too bad

The warning in the "Quick Tips" is not that the engine will flood but that the plugs will foul. It sounds like the people who get a tow to the dealership end up with new or cleaned set of spark plugs, excluding the very small percentage who get new engines due to the front rotor compression issue (not related to short drives).

Can anyone explain to me how flooding the engine once can foul spark plugs to the point where the car will not start?

Got my car back last night. The dealership told me that another '8 had been brought in the same day w/ a flooded engine.

The dealership had me fill out a "Won't Start" questionairre that basically asked about my driving habits. (avg diststance per day, avg speed, avg warm-up time, what rpm do you shift at, etc).

The last couple of pages was filled out by the service center that looked like a bunch of readings from my engine. So it looks like Mazda is collecting information about all these flooded engine reports.

Sorry, fellow skeptics, but these reports are of a real flooding problem. How do I know it is not just skewed voting from disgruntled complainers? Because it happened to me with my new RX-8 and it has never happened with any other car I've ever owned or rented before.

Mine is a similar story to previous ones. I went to my driveway & jumped into the car last Thursday morning, a cold one. Nearly late for work, big meeting.

Big rush.

Started the car, no problem. Immediately saw from the fuel gauge that my wife had left the car from her previous nights' use with almost NO GAS in it. Knew that I'd really be late for work if we drove that car and had to stop for a fill-up. Made a (fateful) snap decision - switched off the car and took our other car to work (the Protege 5 which we haven't sold yet since getting the RX-8). Came back after work around 6PM, guess what - the RX-8 wouldn't start.

Tried it many times. Went to after-dinner event (again in other car) and came back around 10PM with a can of gas in hand, thinking "maybe it is really OUT of fuel"....Added the can of gas into the tank...No go.

Had it towed (free) to dealer around MIDNIGHT - what a pain it was searching for that towing eyelet in the cold, dark night. Wrecker piggy-backed it and then off-loaded it at the dealer's (locked) gate and I dropped off my keys in the drop box.

Weekend goes by. Dealer says motor was flooded, had to change spark plugs, oil (gas got in it) and oil filter.

No other car has shown me this sensitivity to being turned off cold. Anyway, the RX-8 starts & runs fine now. I understand from these posts how the back-pressure causes flooding of the combustion chambers. I will not stop her cold, ever again - PROMISE!

Dad was in a rush to go to town last nite, jumped in, didnt warm it up at all, backed out of the garage and stalled it, couldnt get it going again, tryed again this morning just got going with heaps of smoke!

I started up the 8 and moved into the garage the other night. The next morning it wouldn't start. I did the whole "flooded procedure" which involved:
1. pulling the plugs
2. cleaning and blowing them out
3. cranking the engine with the fuel pump disabled
4. replacing the plugs
5. attempting to restart the car.

Needless to say, this didn't work even after 3 tries. I called mazda and they didn't have any other suggestions except to bring it in and have them tinker with it. I thought about just replacing the plugs but there is no way I'm paying $50 for new plugs when the car is only 2 months old. Personally I think this flooding issue is rediculous! I have owned a 93 rx7 since 1998 and have never had a problem like this. This isn't just rotary related, this is a Renesis problem. Not only am I extremely disappointed with the power output of this engine, but now I find out it's even more quirky than the already quirky 13BREW. If this continues to be a problem I might have to consider getting rid of it. After all, I bought the car as a reliable daily driver. I realize that starting the car and shutting it down a minute later is a big no no when it comes to rotaries, but I am hearing from others that these cars are stalling and not starting afterwards because the engine get flooded. Again, I have experienced none of these problems with my last rotary, and I would start and shut that engine down all the time while it was still cold. I really hope madza comes up with a fix for this. Maybe they could adjust the fuel maps a little at startup so the car doesn't run so rich and fould the plugs out so easily. They need to come up with something. So far this poll is up to about 12 % of rx8 owners who have experienced engine flooding. That number is just too high for this car to be considered reliable.

I had this flooding problem many times with my 84 GSL-SE (Still have it). I thought 20 years of refinement would have taken care of it, but my car flooded last Sunday.

I took care of it the way I always have. I pull-started it with my SUV. The starter can't spin fast enough, but a 15mph pull in second gear is plenty fast to push excess fuel out of the chambers, dry the plugs, and it starts. Not NEARLY as bad as a tow to the dealer.

Good grief!
Am I buying a consumer product or a prototype?! This is surely the RX-8s Achilles Heel.

Originally posted by Lensman
This is surely the RX-8s Achilles Heel.

I would agree that, unfortunately, the RENESIS engine is the RX-8's Achilles Heel. Poor gas mileage, low power, prone to spark-plug fouling, hard to meet pollution standards, etc.

Yesterday, I read the Consumer Report's review of the WRX, RX-8, EVO, 350Z and Crossfire. Bottom line ... RX-8 is tops in every category except for the engine.

And the RENESIS got an award for motor of the year???

Originally posted by Canada
And the RENESIS got an award for motor of the year???

Yeah, it does seem to be a contradiction.

To be fair, the motor is quite a technological achievement. I can certainly understand why it won awards. Beyond that, the engine makes a number of other aspects of the RX-8 possible like a car, with a passenger cabin that large, having such amazing handling and braking ability with such a low price.

Unfortunately, back in the real world, issues like flooding, clean emissions and power make it hard to fully appreciate the elegance of the technology.

Originally posted by msrecant
Yeah, it does seem to be a contradiction.

To be fair, the motor is quite a technological achievement. I can certainly understand why it won awards. Beyond that, the engine makes a number of other aspects of the RX-8 possible like a car, with a passenger cabin that large, having such amazing handling and braking ability with such a low price.

Unfortunately, back in the real world, issues like flooding, clean emissions and power make it hard to fully appreciate the elegance of the technology.

Well, OK, but remember that the jury is still out on these three issues (flooding because there are questions about the statistical validity of the sampling of the forum reports and polls; emissions because there have been published reports of very low emissions; and power because there is a by now very long discussion of off-the-line stats v. overall power characteristics as experienced by drivers in real-world conditions).

I don't understand what you mean by statistical validity of the polls dealing with the flooding issues. What is invalid? I don't see this issue popping up on any other forum. If it wasn't an issue then there wouldn't be so many people experiencing the problem. For those who daily drive their RX8s, this is a serious reliability issue.

As for emissions, I agree with you. I haven't seen an issue with it. I think mazda has this supposed issue under control.

I still feel the car is underpowered. You can give me all the peak HP numbers you want and it still won't make me feel any better when I take my car out for a spin. There is a reason mazda put turbos on the RX7. A two rotor needs a turbo to be competative with todays high performance V6 and V8 engines. I would honestly like to see mazda grow some balls and start using 3 rotors. But I'm sure I'm not the only one. :)

Originally posted by Silver7
I don't understand what you mean by statistical validity of the polls dealing with the flooding issues. What is invalid? I don't see this issue popping up on any other forum. If it wasn't an issue then there wouldn't be so many people experiencing the problem. For those who daily drive their RX8s, this is a serious reliability issue.

As for emissions, I agree with you. I haven't seen an issue with it. I think mazda has this supposed issue under control.

I still feel the car is underpowered. You can give me all the peak HP numbers you want and it still won't make me feel any better when I take my car out for a spin. There is a reason mazda put turbos on the RX7. A two rotor needs a turbo to be competative with todays high performance V6 and V8 engines. I would honestly like to see mazda grow some balls and start using 3 rotors. But I'm sure I'm not the only one. :)

By "statistical validity" all I meant was (1) that we have reports of a problem from (at the moment) 15 people, as against an undetermined number of owners, so we don't know what percentage of the population of drivers are experiencing the problemand (2) there is no control to determine what people mean by "flooding". (Some people surely have experienced legitimate issues and have been inconvenienced but I remember at least one other person saying that by flooding he meant that starter turned over several times. This is to say that the forum and poll doesn't represent a controlled study.)

On the power matter, as I said , I was referring to people's experience in the real world of driving. You report wishing the car had more more power. I appreciate your report about your experience. Others are very happy with the power of their cars. I appreciate your reports as well.

Edit: Sorry for the typos: "don't" for "doesn't" and "I appreciate their reports as well. "

Originally posted by selmeralto
Well, OK, but remember that the jury is still out on these three issues (flooding because there are questions about the statistical validity of the sampling of the forum reports and polls; emissions because there have been published reports of very low emissions; and power because there is a by now very long discussion of off-the-line stats v. overall power characteristics as experienced by drivers in real-world conditions).

I disagree.

If flooding were an unproven statistical issue, then why would Mazda include a "short trip" warning in the QuickTips booklet that came with the car. After doing research I have discovered that "short trip" flooding has been a long-time issue with fuel-injected rotary engines. Also, once a rotary is flooded, it is hard, if not impossible to clear the fuel out of the combustion chambers without substantial measures. The warning and the anechdotal reports on the forum simply confirm that the issue is still with us.

On the emissions and power issues I would say that Canzoomer's work strongly implies that Mazda sacrificed substantial power and gas mileage to meet US pollution standards. One has to question a brand new high-tech engine that is so tight on its ability to meet emission standards that the only alternative to deal with a last minute standards-change is to seriously impact engine performance (about a 10% hit).

On the power issue, I may be wrong but I have not seen any evidence that the US production cars can meet the performance levels reported by the Car Mags running pre-production cars. The Consumer Reports tests (December 2003) on a production RX-8 were substantially off the mark (0-60 in 6.7 sec and 1/4 mile in 15.2) while the other cars came in around the Car Mag numbers.

Originally posted by msrecant
I disagree.

If flooding were an unproven statistical issue, then why would Mazda include a "short trip" warning in the QuickTips booklet that came with the car. After doing research I have discovered that "short trip" flooding has been a long-time issue with fuel-injected rotary engines. Also, once a rotary is flooded, it is hard, if not impossible to clear the fuel out of the combustion chambers without substantial measures. The warning and the anechdotal reports on the forum simply confirm that the issue is still with us.

On the emissions and power issues I would say that Canzoomer's work strongly implies that Mazda sacrificed substantial power and gas mileage to meet US pollution standards. One has to question a brand new high-tech engine that is so tight on its ability to meet emission standards that the only alternative to deal with a last minute standards-change is to seriously impact engine performance (about a 10% hit).

On the power issue, I may be wrong but I have not seen any evidence that the US production cars can meet the performance levels reported by the Car Mags running pre-production cars. The Consumer Reports tests (December 2003) on a production RX-8 were substantially off the mark (0-60 in 6.7 sec and 1/4 mile in 15.2) while the other cars came in around the Car Mag numbers.

Dear msrecant,

You make some good points.

But remember I didn't deny that flooding was an issue. I only made the point that we don't know how much of an issue it is statistically (i.e., how widespread the problem is).

On emissions, I wasn't commenting on the alleged trade-off for power but only on whether the car, as delivered, has high emissions.

And, as I said, people have reported different reactions to the car's acceleration.

Mine flooded recently and had to be towed in. However, when it happened on my trying to start the car after sitting in the garage for two days -- it seemed that the battery wasn't strong enough to turn the engine over. The dash dimmed out significantly almost to the point of not being visible. Finally it slowly began to spin the engine and it tried to start. However, after that it was flooded. The engine flooded starting technique in the manual was of no help. The car stayed at the dealer for 3 days. Got it back and they said it was flooded. I asked about the battery which on previous complaint tested at 320 CCA out of 400 CCA rated. They said this time it was in the 300-325 CCA range and isn't low enough for Mazda to replace it.

I believe on this instance that the battery somehow couldn't spin the engine fast enough at initial start and the injection system dumped in too much fuel for the slow turning.

I plan to contact Mazda and plead for a new battery that checks out somewhere reasonably close to what it's rated for.

Yesterday, I backed my RX8 into the driveway and later drove it back into the garage. It started OK going into the garage but would not start this morning. I was not aware of the potential to flood this easily. I was towed and the dealer sprayed starter fluid to get it started. I'll try to avoid the quick drives and rev to 4000 when turning off. Hope this solves this problem.

Originally posted by godai00
I was towed and the dealer sprayed starter fluid to get it started.

General question to the forum .....

Is this an OK way to deal with Rotary flooding? Is there a possibility that it will damage the engine if done by a non-mechanic type person?

Should I (we all) get a can of starter fluid, just in case?

Had my car taken to the dealer today. Washed and waxed the car Sunday, pulled into the garage and today it wouldn't start. Talked to service rep and I should have it back tomorrow. He made it sound like there's a reprograming fix for the flooding problem. I'll try to clarify the fix tomorrow. Based on some of the input off this board, think I'll try for a free oil change, after all I've got 1300 miles on the car. I traded in a 93 RX7 and it never flooded.

If there is a reprogramming fix I would hope that mazda would issue a recall or at least contact all rx8 owners to make them aware of this. Please keep us posted on this.

I think I was just a victim -- initially blamed the Immobilizer, which indeed is blinking, but recall that I briefly moved the car Thursday morning -- had not read this thread and was not aware of flooding potential. Would not start tonight and now at the dealer. Hope they can handle on a Sat. morning as I must go 600 miles to get home! Ugh.

Picked up my car today. Talked to the service rep and I guess I misunderstood him when he said there was a fix. At least I got an oil change and the car was cleaned inside and out. I guess I'm lucky it happened in my garage and not 600 miles from home.

Just found this website after getting my -8 towed to the dealership from my house. No word back yet, but it sounds like I flooded it. I backed it out to work in the garage and pulled it in w/o any problems. The next day, it would not start. Both times, I did not let the engine warm up. More words to follow...

I am interested to see how many people have had this happen to them more than once. The reason I am asking is because when mine flooded, I pulled out the plugs and they looked horrible. There was a thick oily residue on them. The trailing plugs looks much worse than the leading plugs. I am wondering if this is something that was caused by the break in of the engine. I know the motor has to burn off all the lubricants used while building the engine. I don't know for sure, but I am assuming the dealer replaced the plugs when it was brought in. Since then I have started the car and shut it down prematurely with no flooding issues. I am thinking that a clean set of plugs installed after break in may reduce the chance of flooding to occur. What do you guys think?

Just had mine towed to the dealer. Was backing out of the garage and it just died and wouldn't restart. Tried holding throttle open to no avail.Got it back and the reason was flooding. Dealer "deflooded" which involved removing spark plugs and cranking engine with fuel system disabled. Cleaned plugs and reinstalled and engine fired. New cars shouldn't be prone to flooding, especially fuel injected cars. I'm concerned.....

Has anyone had it flooded more than once? If not, this might support the engine assembly lube/plug coating theory.

Well, count me among the "flooded".

Walked out to the car, started it, put it in reverse, and stalled it.

Tried to re-start, to no effect. Followed the instructions for "flooded engine" in the owner's manual. (Repeatedly) Still no effect. Tried again this a.m. You guessed it. No effect, except a significantly discharged battery.

Called the dealer and set up an appointment to have it "de-flooded".

Called "Mazda Roadside Assistance" to get it towed to dealer.

Now, here's the interesting bit, the response from the individual that I talked to at Mazda Roadside Assistance was - "RX-8, oh, we get two or three of those a day." (This followed my description of the problem I was having.)

Statistically relevant? Well, I would think that Mazda would think so.

It's always been my understanding that cold-starting produces more wear and tear than any other automotive activity. I was taught by my avionics engineer father that you should always try to avoid shutting down any cold engine.

But there's no avoiding errors with a new car and a new clutch:

Originally posted by chuck246
Walked out to the car, started it, put it in reverse, and stalled it.

This is a very valid and unavoidable mishap and brings the flooding issue into sharp relief.

One slip-up and you may need to send your car off to the dealer on a flatbed. Not good.

After reading posts, here are some proposed rules for the treatment of our cars:

1. "Never put it away wet" -- it's an old nautical saying -- run the car up to temp or don't start it.

2. If you need to wash it, have an assistant help you roll it on to the driveway from the garage. Drive it afterwards 5 minutes to dry.

3. Do not loan your RX8 to people who are 'rusty' or new to manual-shift transmissions.

Maybe Mazda could retrofit these cars with a fuel cutoff switch. In this way we could crank a little to clear the extra fuel vapor. I'm thinking a big red handle under the hood which would open the throttle, activate oil injection and disable ignition & fuel.

- Eric H., Marietta, GA
2004 RX8 (titanium)
1976 Alfa Romeo Spider (rosso)

I have just gotten home after picking up my car from the dealer. It took a ride there this morning on the back of a roll back after it stoped running then refuesed to restart. It was started and run for appx. 1 min. when it shut down from 1400 rpm as recorded on the prom. It would not restart or even try to fire. A victom of "wash out" or no compression from flooding. After pumping the motor out (spark plugs removed and cranking with the starter) changing the oil as it was contaminated with fuel and installing new spark plugs were on the road again. The dealear told me he had two in today with the same problem. Both were low mileage cars. Mine has 4000 on the od. This is a real problem.

Mine started when the dealer followed the Mazda crank 10-sec. to the floor and then 10-sec. off the accelerator regime. (This is also in the manual but they DON'T say why.) He downloaded a Mazda dealer memo on what to do; next step was to pull the plugs, etc. (This was an L-M dealer for whom Mazda is secondary and the "Mazda tech" did not come in that Saturday after Thanksgiving. Lucky this worked and that dealer svc. was open on Sat. or I'd have been stranded 530 miles from home.)

Car seemed to run fine thereafter and from Ann Arbor back to D.C., but mileage was 1 MPG down from the trip out (but we had a headwind....). I ran it up to 8500 a few times hoping to clear any residual fouling, as plugs were not inspected. Have service appointment next week, however, and will ask dealer to check (1) whether the old oil has any gasoline in it and (2) whether plugs are fouled or bad looking in some way.

Wonder if this has happened in valet parking lots where cars get shuffled around? A truly evil problem.

Originally posted by shebam
Wonder if this has happened in valet parking lots where cars get shuffled around? A truly evil problem.

Excellent question. I know a restaurant in Old Town San Diego that has ONLY valet parking at night. I'm not going there anymore, or at least not in the '8. Despite how much you tell them, you can't trust these kids to treat your car with the care you would yourself. And it's not really their fault: What you would consider normal driving for a piston engine could spell death to a rotary (like shuffling cars around in the crowded valet lot. Lots of cold starts and quick shutdowns.) :confused:

Considering the inconvenience and expense if they mess up, I'm sure they would disclaim all liability and leave your stranded. No valets for me, thank you.

My car wouldn't start, called dealer he mentioned flooding. First time I had heard of this. Waited till next morning attempted start, no luck. Car is being towed, hopefully this is a rare event.

Not yet, but it IS reason # 35982354 that I'm glad to be a member of this forum. Now I'm carrying tools in the trunk in case the procedure in the manual doesn't work and, in a pinch, I decide to temporarily disable injectors, remove spark plugs, crank and reinstall cleaned/dry plugs.

Thanks to all who shared their experiences thereby giving the rest a heads up!

Had similar resolution as others have mentioned here - dealer pulled spark plugs & found that they were "fouled". Replaced all the plugs, reprogrammed the PCU & now it is running much cleaner. I am of the opinion that there is something to be said about people who have posted the "engine assembly lube/plug coating theory". Wish I had the nads to test the theory (see if it floods after doing cold start - no warm up) - but having car towed from driveway ONCE was enough for me!

Read what balletsushigirl has to say at this thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=186096#post186096).

"today i picked up my spacepug from the mechanic (oil light sensor issue fixed with new oil pan). they brought my car around and shut the engine off cold. given that this is a mazda dealership, should we be able to trust that they know how to care for the rotary engine? should i complain or let it go?"

One thing that has always worked well for the 2nd generation RX-7's is to inject a little automatic transmission fluid to help to restore compression. IMHO I would do this with the 10 sec cranking with the pedal to the floor.

On the issue with the spark plugs looking nasty, I've never seen a rotary engine with clean plugs... broken in or not :)

One other option would be to install a turbo timer. These little devices keep your car running for a set period of time after you remove the key. (although I don't know how well it would work with the new cars) With my RX-7 if I have to move it, I move the car and set the turbo timer for ~8 minutes. I've never flooded the car this way. I don't think I've ever really had my TII flood, although I've always known NOT to EVER shut it off cold...

As with most of my posts this will probably turn into a book so before you read any farther just be warned that you should probably take all of your bathroom and food breaks now if you intend to read this! We get up to 20000 characters max per post so I will exercise my right to use them!

I see many people wonder why the rotary floods so easily and ask why it takes so long for it to unflood. Luckily I know what actually happens in the engine and now you will to.

First of all I'm going to explain through a real example of what can happen to your engine when flooded. When I say flooded I mean high water flooded not fuel flooded. I will get to that as well in chapter 2! ;) 5 or 6 years ago my friend Chad and I met a very distraught 3rd gen RX-7 owner who had foolishly driven his car into high water. The water got into the intake and right into the engine. The engine died and would not restart for obvious reasons. The car sat in a parking lot for a couple of days until we could get there with a trailer to haul it back to my friend's place to work on it. Typically when water gets in your engine it is time for a new one. The first thing we did is to remove the spark plugs. Water poured out of them. Yep, I'd say it was flooded! The intercooler came out next and again more water was poured out. We pulled the intake manifold off and drained it. There was water sitting in the turbo manifold and the exhaust. It was getting impressive. When all was said and done we poured out a few gallons of water from the whole engine assembly!!! We turned the engine with a big ratchet and noticed that it still turned fine. We used a mirror and looked into both exhaust ports (this won't work on the Renesis) at the apex seals as the engine was spun over. They all looked fine. We didn't expect that. Rather then go all out and remove the engine for rebuild we made the decision to put the whole thing back together. If anyone here has ever worked on a 3rd gen RX-7 engine then you know what kind of a nightmare the vacuum lines are. We were afraid that we'd still have to undo them again later and 70+ vacuum lines on and off twice sucks! Anyways we got the car back together 100%. Tried to start the car. The engine just free spun. No compression pulses or anything. We installed new plugs since we first tried the old ones. Nothing. We poured a little atf (automatic transmission fluid) into the spark plug holes. I'm not taliking pints here just a couple of ounces each. I don't care what anyone says, it does NOT build compression. What the atf does do is to soften up the carbon deposits within the engine. We then cranked the engine over for a while and actually started to get a very small amount of compression. Knowing that you can start ANY rotary engine that isn't seized by pulling the car down the street in gear, we decided to do just that. BTW, I have actually started a rotary with a blown apex seal that scored up the housings and killed a bearing by pulling the car down the street in gear. Ran like crap but the point is that if you can't get the car started do this. OK back on track now. We pulled the car down the street behind Chad's truck in 2nd gear at about 15-20 mph or so. We kept trying to get it to start. Finally after about 2 miles of pulling the car tried to start. We started getting excited now! After a little more pulling the car did start but sounded like absolute crap. If the engine was shut off we couldn't get it restarted and would have to repull it. As another little side note, when atf burns in the engine you have the most impressive smoke machine out the exhaust the world has ever seen for about a half an hour! Words can't even begin to describe but we were damned sure the fire department would arrive. Once we got the car started the main goal was to keep it there. We noticed that the longer it was running the better it would run. Did this mean it would return to full power? We were just happy that it was running at all. We only left it this way for a few minutes. Now that we knew the engine could run it was important to get new fluid in the car. If the engine was in fact alright, we didn't want to mess it up. ALL of the fluids were changed, tranny, oil, antifreeze, brake fluid, etc. Hell we even topped up the windshield washer reservoir. After this was done we once again tried to start the car. Almost but not quite. It wanted to though. After a quick pull a few feet we got it going again. We let it idle for about 2 hours monitoring temperature and looking for leaks and noticed that it ran much better after this. We drove the car around the subdivision with several runs up to redline over the next 2 days. The engine felt good and started perfectly but the power wasn't there. Oops forgot to put a very important line from the turbo to intercooler back on! Re-installed it and holy crap that car ran good!!! A 3rd gen engine brought back from the brink of death and it was perfect!

OK if you're still with me now I'll get to the technical stuff and explain why this happened. On a piston engine, the piston rings have sharp edges. The rotary engine's apex seals are rounded on top. This is due to the fact that the apex seals rotate in relation to the rotor housing as the rotor moves around it's phases. A piston ring always has the same surface contact and consequently does not develop this rounded appearance. When water gets into a piston engine, it fills the combustion chamber. When the piston moves upward and the valves close, the water has nowhere to go. Remember that water can not be compressed only pressurized. At this point something has to give. The piston rings usually do and they allow ring parts and water to flow down into the engine crankcase and oil pan. Viola, one dead engine in need of a rebuild. A rotary does something very unique though. When water fills up the rotor housing and the port closes, a small amount of water is also under the rounded tip of the apex seals. Since water can not compress, the pressure exerted on the water is redirected at the apex seal. This results in the seal pushing upwards into its groove and the water passes by into the next chamber and so forth and so on until it finds a way to leave. The 3rd gen we had, had water sitting in the engine for a few days. The seals just stayed back in the grooves and the small amount of carbon around them ended up temporarily glueing them in their grooves. This was why even though the inside of our engine was dried out, we had no compression. This is what the atf was for and it was what weakened the carbon's hold on the apex seals. Now just because this engine was fine does not mean that every rotary that gets flooded will be OK. I'm sure the amount of sediment in the water had it's long term affects on that engine. The air filter can only do so much for such a large rushing volume! As with detontation, once may kill it or it may survive many. There is no telling but it should give you some comfort in your little engine's abilities.

Now as to why the engine floods so easily from fuel. It doesn't take hardly any amount of fluid to get a rotaries apex seals to push back slightly. The same thing is happening with fuel even in small amounts. A fuel injector may leak or there may be some residual fuel from the last run still hanging out in the engine. Maybe it was cranked for too long. Who knows? The point is that just enough fuel was present in the rotor housing that the apex seal was moved slightly into it's groove. It doesn' t take much to let all of the pressure escape into another chamber. What happens is that the fuel backs up along the back apex seal to that particular chamber. The small amount of pressure present from air compression has pushed up on the small amount of fuel under that particular apex seal and some of the pressure has bled back into the following chamber. It isn't much but when the engine is turning this slow, you need all the compression you can get. Ever tried to get a big mammoth low compression V-8 started? It sucks doesn't it! If the started could turn the engine twice as fast, we'd never hear of a flooded rotary at startup. When people flood their cars, the first thing they do is to keep cranking it like it is still going to start. You are only making it worse! As with my above story, you can almost always push start the car by popping the clucth. This usually does it but I've had my car flooded bad enough that we had to pull it. Interestingly enough when you flood the engine bad enough, as with the water you may also still have little to no compression for a little bit while cranking. It might just sound like free spinning. This is the sign of alot of fuel. The plugs also get fouled and this only makes matters worse. Don't go spend $40 for new ones. Just take them out, clean them and reinstall them. You shouldn't have to do this unless you really messed up though. The cause of flooding on the 1st and 2nd gen RX-7's was typically due to old leaky fuel injectors. They can't close all the way so the leftover pressure in the lines pushes the fuel in the lines into the engine and floods it. Another cause on all RX-7's was that the car was turned off before it was warmed up. Those cars run really rich when cold. Remember it only takes a very small amoutn of fuel to cause this. The cure was always to find a fuse that went to the fuel pump and remove it. On the 1st and 2nd gen RX-7's this was within reach of the driver under the dash. You'd just remove the fuse and crank the engine for and few seconds. This gets all the gas out of the engine and doesn't allow any more to enter. Reinsert fuse and ther car starts every time! The Renesis will prove to be a pain in the butt here as the fuel pump is controlled directly by the ecu. If the fuel pump does not run off of a fuse that sends power to the ecu then this should work just fine. My concern is that with the computer control of the car that a CEL will come on. Then again maybe you can't do this and I am typing for nothing!

Well after all of this you should now know exactly how and why a rotary floods so easily and what ways there are to get the car started again. Sadly I can't be completely sure why the car just randomly floods if you are doing everything properly but at least I can explain the internal forces at work when it does! Unfortunatly I also am not sure how to quickly get the car started other than pushing it or pulling it and popping the clutch. Also as a disclaimer, I can not guarantee that if you drive through flood waters that your engine will definitely survive. If you are careless enough to do this don't blame me for it should it not survive. Why couldn't I write this long on reports back in school? If you got this far I sincerely thank you for taking the time. :)

I started an entire new thread that explains in technical terms what happens when the rotary floods and why it does. This should answer anybodies questions. It is also in the tech garage section.

This is an interesting theory, however what proof do you have that the seals get stuck from normal fuel flooding? I believe this concept with the water in the motor in your case, however my experiences with rotary fuel flooding seem to point more towards the oil being removed and causing a lack of compression. I don't see how the fuse pull trick would work on several stuck apex seals. You would have to stick 4 of the 6 seals which I find hard to believe. When I've had them flooded badly there was NO compression. (meaning that 4 of the 6 would HAVE to be stuck with your theory)

With the RX-7 most of the fuel would be pushed out of the exhaust when the rotor turns over which would help to unflood the motor. With the side port of the Renesis, I can see how the problem could easily keep getting worse because the location of the exhaust port wouldn't lend itself to clearing fluid from the engine as quickly.

You make some interesting points however I would like to see further proof that this is occurring rather than one example that included water. At least with an RX-7 you would need a LOT of fluid entering that engine to "hydrolock it" since nearly all of it would get expelled from the exhaust port each time it past it. I believe that this fuel in the exhaust is why you get all of the white smoke after it's been badly flooded. (you get this smoke even without ATF)

Also, when the guys on the honda forums suck up water into their integra motors, they usually break rods, not rings... :(

If you got this far I sincerely thank you for taking the time.

rotarygod

Don't apologize for sharing knowledge! I'm very familiar with piston engines but this is my first rotary.

I'm learning and very much appreciate your effort!

Interesting theory but I think it is more than just the inherent design of the apex seals. I'll advance a different theory, the fuel map designers who design the fuel schedules are walking a fine line between enough fuel for cold start, not too much fuel for cold start emissions, and the relatively poor thermodynamic efficiency of the rotary engine from a swept volume/cold surface area perspective; and haven't gotten it right yet. . Let me explain.. one reason low emissions are hard to attain in a rotary is the large surface area relative to combustion chamber volume..fuel likes to condense on the rotor face until things warm up. When I worked for Mikuni designing fuel injection systems we always struggled with the cold start problem on turbocharged piston engines; correct fuel maps that worked well under all conditions were very difficult to derive. I suspect that this issue is compounded with the rotary, not due to the apex seal design, but due to all of these other factors; there are cases where the fuel maps are wrong, the spark plugs foul, and the engine won't start. If it were solely a compression related issue, cleaning the plugs would do nothing. After all, the situation started with "clean plugs" in the first place. THe irritating leaking injectors in the later gen -7's would do just that, excess fuel would foul the plugs and the engine wouldn't start. With carburated rotaries, we would occasionally flood them (we worked with RX-2's, -3's, -4's, Cosmo, and 1st gen -7's), but in their case our foot controls the accelerator pump and we could insure that it wasn't still pumping in fuel as we cleared the flood. Not an apex design issue at all. In the injected -7's and -8's this isn't the case. Pull starting a car pumps lots of air through and may do more to clearing the plugs than "restoring" compression. I think there is a "corner" in the fuel map that is occasionally encountered where a cold engine is started (rich injector map to cold start), it dies (excess fuel in the combustion chamber coupled with fuel on the rotor face fouls the plugs), combustion doesn't happen, more fuel is pumped in and the engine won't ever start unless the plugs are pulled and cleaned. THis may be made worse with new engines if the plugs get coated with a slight coating of engine assembly lube (makes them more susceptible to not firing); hence my earlier inquiry if anyone has experienced flooding after the plugs have been cleaned once. ( I haven't yet but like many I'm reluctant to try!). The fix?..it wouldn't surprise me if new cars get a different fuel map software load that may or may not be available to existing owners... In the meantime, no throttle on cold starts, let it warm a bit before motoring, and enjoy!

I agree that the spark plugs probably have something to do with it (possibly helping to get it to the "fully flooded" state), however I think there must be a loss of compression. The motor clearly sounds like it isn't making any compression and is just freely turning over.

The seals don't get stuck from normal fuel flooding. They merely have just enough pressure exerted on them from the buildup of fuel that they will allow pressure to bleed into the other chambers. When the engine is severely fuel flooded and seems to freespin, this doesn't mean that the seals are stuck. It merely means that there is quite a bit of fuel present inside the chambers that is still allowing some pressure to get by. If you keep cranking the engine, as it dries out you will hear the compression start to return. Pulling the fuse does not unstick the seals since they aren't stuck. It just allows the engine to be cranked over with no additional fuel entering so what is there has time to dissipate.

Good point on the side exhaust ports on the Renesis probably making unflooding harder due to the tendency to hold some through the next cycle. It doesn't take that much to flood a rotary at startup especially at such a slow speed. If the starter spun the engine much faster we'd never have this issue.

On a piston engine, seals breaking, rods breaking, etc. The point was that something has to give when the piston rings don't allow the pressure to bleed off around them.

Yep you do get some smoke when you start a rotary that has been flooded but with atf it is just sheerly impressive. It looks like you have a fire extinguisher in the exhaust blowing out the back of the car. Drive the car twice around the block like this and you'll swear that there must be a huge fire somewhere or that a huge fog bank rolled in. I just don't know how to emphasize how much smoke there is.

Last time we cleared one from a "flood" situation

The Sams Club next door called the fire dept.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rotarygod
The seals don't get stuck from normal fuel flooding. They merely have just enough pressure exerted on them from the buildup of fuel that they will allow pressure to bleed into the other chambers. When the engine is severely fuel flooded and seems to freespin, this doesn't mean that the seals are stuck. It merely means that there is quite a bit of fuel present inside the chambers that is still allowing some pressure to get by. If you keep cranking the engine, as it dries out you will hear the compression start to return.[/QUOTE

RotaryGod, thanks for sharing your experience in this and other posts. It helps to hear from someone who's been through it for years with rotaries since this will be my first.

One thing I'm not clear on in your post is how residual fuel exerts "pressure" on the apex seals. Are you suggesting the volume of liquid fuel is in excess of the combustion chamber volume at TDC (or whatever it's called on a rotary?) It seems more likely to me that this is a film problem - the raw fuel washing the chamber walls clean of oil. The effect would be the same though - it won't get better until most of that fuel is gone.

The other thing I wonder about is the effect that centripetal force has on the apex seal. Is it easier for it to effect a seal when the engine is spinning, due to outward force exerted on the seal? Or is the spring stronger than that to begin with?

I was interested in your report that the seal has rounded shoulders from use. Sounds obvious once it's explained, but until now I'd just imagined it as flat. It does help to understand why the compression seal on the rotary is so tenuous at startup.

Rotorygod-

I am just curious, since pressures of cumbustion are very great, why would they not lift the seal and let the pressure into the next rotor? Gases, compressable and non-compressible(liquid) exert the same forces on there suroundings for the same pressure level.

The most simple explanation is due to inertia of the engine rotating at such a fast speed as opposed to a measly couple hundred rpm's with the starter cranking it over. During startup the term "fuel atomization" is also a joke. It is closer to a fluid deposit on the combustion chamber surfaces that gets pushed around until enough of it combusts to get the engine going. When the fuel mixes in with the air, most of it is not concentrated under the rounded tips of the apex seals but rather throughout the combustion chamber where the pressure against the springs is against them from the side rather than from underneath. Obviously you'd never have any compression if it just pushed the seals back.


Here's a neat little experiment for those who have lots of time on their hands and some spare engine parts lying around. This is easiest if you have just taken an old engine out of a car and disassembled it. As long as you have one good rotor this will work. Basically you need to fabricate one end housing out of plexiglass so that everything is a spinning engine but looks like a display. Make a plate that covers the intake port and has a fitting for an air hose. Squirt some sort of fluid into the intake port so you can see it lightly puddle in the engine. Now spin the engine over by hand and let the engine rotate one complete revolution. You'll notice that the rotor housing surface behind the following apex seal is not dry. It is much drier but not dry. If you could spin it fast enough this wouldn't happen. The second part of the experiment involves filling a chanber completely full of water and then using the air hose fitting to pressurize it. If your handiwork with the plexiglass is good and you have water o-rings in the housings then hopefully your engine isn't leaking. Now add pressure. Suddenly each chamber around it starts to get seapage. If you try to spin the eninge by hand you probably can't do it unless you have a long enough cheater bar. Cool little experiment. Sometimes I have too much time on my hands.

markpmm- I think that's a good illustration of the amount of smoke!

Here is a link to see a visual in relation to the explanation provided by rotarygod - it really helped me to understand what is happening after reading the technical description of what is happening. Maybe it will help others as well. Thanks to rotarygod for the rotary explanation!

http://rx7.voodoobox.net/infofaq/images/Rotary.gif

Originally posted by Brian_TII

On the issue with the spark plugs looking nasty, I've never seen a rotary engine with clean plugs... broken in or not :)


A "normal" rotary spark plug is usually a little black with a little carbon deposit residue on the tip. There is nothing normal about a black oily soot covering the entire tip of the spark plug. If this is normal then your car has some serious issues.

The Rx8 should not need a turbo timer. The issue isn't with cooling the car down. I see the cold shut down happening when someone wants to simply pull their car into the garage. I don't want to run my car for 8 minutes while it's sitting in the garage. Some people have experienced their cars stalling while backing up and the car simply won't restart. I have owned an FD for over 5 years now and have never had the flooding problems that these rx8s are experiencing. I have shut the car down cold numerous times while trying to tune the hot and cold startup settings with my haltech.

As far as I've seen not one person has come forward to say that they have experienced flooding once their plugs have been replaced with a new set after the motor has been fully broken in. This backs up my theory that engine lube could be aiding in the flooding issues with the rx8s.

rotarygod, just like your many other articles, very informative. Thank you.

Today I did lots of little trips to stores all in the same area. I watched the temp guage, but had no issues as it was normal running temp before my first start and held there for a few hours with the quick trips.

My question is, what is warm? Does the temp gauge need to be at normal running temp to be warm? Or is it somewhere between the needle registering at least something and near half way. My original thoughts were if it’s a quarter to normal running temp, that should cover it. Can somebody let me know if that’s a poor assumption?

Originally posted by Speed & Trixie
Here is a link to see a visual in relation to the explanation provided by rotarygod - it really helped me to understand what is happening after reading the technical description of what is happening. Maybe it will help others as well. Thanks to rotarygod for the rotary explanation!

http://rx7.voodoobox.net/infofaq/images/Rotary.gif

Here are a bunch more

http://www.rotaryengineillustrated.com/animations.html

i have no idea what tempurature the coolant has to reach to end the "cold start" sequence, but whatever it is when your engine idle drops from 1000 to ~800 and stops running so godawful rich, that's it.

Originally posted by WHealy
My question is, what is warm?

As I recall, the manual says to warm it up for about 5 minutes.

I noticed that after 3 minutes my guage reaches "normal" (about 2 clicks left of center) and does not go any higher - even after driving all day.

Your guage may maintain a different "normal" from mine and take less or more time to reach that point. When I have to move my AT out of the garage (to get at my pickup) I usually do a round trip to the post office (3 minutes away) and by the time I return, my guage is at "nomal". That's how I avoid the potential flooding problem.

Originally posted by mngpao
I noticed that after 3 minutes my guage reaches "normal" (about 2 clicks left of center) and does not go any higher - even after driving all day.

My "normal" is the same as yours (2 marks left of center). It never seems to go above that. For a while I suspected that the temperature gauge was an idiot light in disguise like the oil pressure "gauge".

If it's anything like the temp gauge on the FD, then it is nothing more than an idiot light, and may cost you an engine much further down the road. The gauge on the 3rd gen rx7 was so bad that by the time it started moving above "normal" it was most likely too late, as your coolant temps were approaching 250 and higher.

Originally posted by paradigm
your coolant temps were approaching 250 and higher.

wow... and the engine MADE it to the point where the gauge moved?? yipes.

How does the fuel flooding problem build up?

If the Rx8 is shutdown a bunch of times the wrongway when the car is still cold but doesnt get fuel flooded any of the times it is shut down does that mean it is reaching an "almost" fuel flooded level and will flood if it is shut down improperly a few more times?

If it is at an almost fuel flooded level is there a way to clean and get the car back down to a "nowhere close" to fuel flooded level?

If the Rx8 is in an almost flooded level does it have worse performance or does being close to flooded have no effect on the engine?

Or is there no such thing as "close to flooded" and fuel flooding can occur at any time the car is shut down the wrong way regardless of how many times it was improperly shut down and it happens by chance not by build up of bad shut downs?

I am confused and want to know.

I would classify a car as "almost flooded" when it gets really hard to start but still does. That was close. Almost isn't really an accurate term though. Either it is or it isn't. It's kind of like saying the train almost missed me. You get the picture. If the engine were sitting for a long time or it were fully warmed up, it would be much less likely to flood. Any fuel left sitting in the engine when it wasn't running will eventually evaporate somehow. After all at least 4 of the total 6 chambers are always going to be exposed to some sort of port. A cold engine will make it take longer for any fuel to evaporate whereas a warm engine will make it easier. Time basically will dry out the engine better than anything else. Unforunately depending on how bad the engine was flooded to begin with, it may only take a few hours to several days to just self unflood.

If the car is running than it would be very hard to get it flooded. That would probably be water ingestion or a stuck open fuel injector at that point. Basically a running engine can either not have any negative effects from flooding since it isn't flooding while running or it will ingest enough to combustion lock it and this flooding would be serious. If your engine floods and gets hard to start, don't worry about it when it does again. It will run fine.

FWIW: On several flooded engines I have just replaced the spark plugs with no positive results. While a fouled spark plug may have issues getting the engine started, it will still run. As I've said before, if we can get the engine initially turning fast enough they will always start. The flooding situation does only help to gum up the plugs though.

I say whenever the needle moves into the first hash marks its pretty safe to turn off as long as you do the 3k rev first. But thats just my opinion. It should mean the engine itself is warmed up but the thermostat just hasn't fully opened.

I agree with wakeech. The engine runs very rich at startup. Once the engine reaches it's "warm" state, the idle will kick down a few hundred rpms. This is the point where the fuel map changes to a more "stoich" setting. This is the point where it would be safe to shut down your engine.

Originally posted by wakeech
wow... and the engine MADE it to the point where the gauge moved?? yipes.

oh yes. It would definitely get to the point where it was that hot, and it would keep on running, but once you got to a certain point the aluminum rotor housings would warp, leading to coolant seal failure. How soon the failure would occur depended on just how hot it got and how long it was there. It could've been 5000 miles down the road, or when you went to start the car the next day it would be flooded with coolant.

I believe that I've just had my first "flooding" experience...My car has been in the garage for 6 days due to the snow we had in MD. It did not start on the first crank, which it has since August when we bought it, on the second crank it just free spun--No compression. It's dead now. I called Mazda roadside and it will be towed in to the dealer in the morning.

Has anyone figured out a definitive way to get a flooded Renesis started without a tow and dealer intervention?

Push start it and pop the clutch. If that doesn't work then pull start it behind another car. Works every time.

Rotarygod

Warrantee, leaky injector and cold stalling issues aside, would we be better off shutting rotary engines down (on a day to day basis) with a kill switch (or PCM software mod) that 'opens' the injector circuit slightly before disabling the ignition circuit to 'fuel starve' the engine. Seems like you could do that when the engine is hot or cold. Thoughts?

The best thing to do would be to delay the fuel delivery to the engine for a couple of seconds when the engine is trying to be started. The ecu should wait for the starter to get the engine fully spinning before any fuel is injected into the engine. It doesn't take much just a very slight delay will do it. The ecu should also have a function that shuts off the fuel after a certain amount of cranking time has passed. Then the slight delay from the next attempt would clear the chamber back out. That would make the most sense to me since the ecu controls the fuel pump anyways.

Hello everybody,

No problem whatsoever, even started the car to shop 2 km away, so the engine was not warm, reved up to 3K and shut down. After 10 min started again whithout any trouble.
Even cold, windy and wet weather does'nt make a difference.
I was a little afraid reading all the posts about flooding, but now there seem to be no problem, at least with my RX8.

regards
Patrick
Belgium

perhaps it is a good idea to mention if your problem concerns a LP or a HP, tax regulations and gas prices are favourising the LP in many European country as Belgium, the Neteherlands, ...

just remember there is no LP or HP choice in America. You get HP with stick; LP with auto.

Our 8 was indeed "flooded". The Mazda 24hr assist number was great except for the fact that the first tow truck they sent was not a flat bed or roller dolly type. The Owner's Manual even says not to tow with either axle in the air--It's either both or a flatbed.

After a morning and half the afternoon in the shop, the service manager confirmed it had flooded. The documented remedy--Replace the plugs and reset the computer(clear the flood code).

Thanks for the tip Rotarygod, but it's an automatic.

What I can relate from this experience is that when the 8 floods you don't get a warning...like a check engine light or a rough idle first. You'll know it though, because it will crank, but you can feel that there's no cranking torgue--Like the starter is just free spinning...

Unfortunately the autos as you have found out are hard to unflood. I still think the best remedy is to delay the onset of fuel when the starter engages and to get a starter that spins the engine over faster.

Mine flooded tonite. I followed the instructions in the manual to no avail. I read the post on pulling the fuse for the fuel pump. That worked on the third try. The last try is was pulling the fuel on its own; it was running when I put the fuse back. Thanks to everyone who has helped out in this thread!

That's how I start my 1st gen RX-7 almost every time!

My wife had to get my rx8 towed out of my garage on monday and that makes me mad being in iraq and can't talk to the service manager. My wife reports that they said there is a lot of them flooding and that the sales person is suppost to tell you when it is cold that you need to warm up the car fully befor turning it off.

My car was flat bedded to the dealer yesterday because my car only warmed up for 4 minutes. I find myself racing towards garage guys and valet parkers when they deliver my car, yelling, "don't turn it off!" my dealer says that if the car is not warmed up to operational termperature - straight up on the temp guage, the car can flood.
In addition, does anyone else find the nav system wrong way too often, and that the heated seats switch, and the nav control switch are located so that your arm is always accidentally hitting those switches on a six speed?
This car frightens me every time i go to start it.

Originally posted by LUCKY19
This car frightens me every time i go to start it.

I understand your feeling and I agree that the situation is just not right! I have owned the car since July, I have never been flooded, but I still breath a sigh of relief every time the engine catches. You just never know when your number is up.

The warning about "short trips" in the "Quick Tips" only talks about "improved engine life", nothing about immediately disabling the vehicle. Also, to me flooding is not the real issue. The problem is that there is no way to fix it short of a trip to the dealer (or a 15 mph tow behind an SUV).

I can't believe that the top engineers who gave us this award winning engine, didn't know about this problem or that they couldn't have provided a solution, even if they had to install some kludge like the old sub-zero starter fluid button/injector that came with early Mazda rotary engines.

I have one question. what is it that causes it to flood. I know that i floods when it is cold but why.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/rotary-engine4.htm

Ineractive animation of how the wankel operates.

Okay, My RX8 does not start and it is flooded. What do I do to get it started?

The amount of fuel needed by the engine is inversely proportional to engine temperature. With a cold engine, a huge amount of fuel is required just to get enough to vaporize, so it can burn. However vaporization at starting rpms is almost a joke since there is not enough turbulence at only a few hundred rpms to vaporize the fuel effectively. This isn't as much of a problem at higher rpms or as the engine warms up. The hotter the engine gets, the easier vaporization becomes, and the less fuel is required. Vaporization is also why it is typically much harder to start a carburated car in cold weather than it is a fuel injected car. To combat this most carbs have some sort of way to heat the carb through a coolant passage running through them. This allows the fuel to heat up faster after the vehicle is started but is counter productive once the engine has reached operating temperature since the last thing we need for true performance is something heating up our intake charge such as a hot coolant passage through the carb. Most fuel injected throttle bodies also have a coolant passage designed to help heat the air sooner as in the carbs. I have mine disconnected on my RX-7's and on my Honda and have noticed no ill effects. To combat our fuel atomization/warmup problems even more with the rotary, we also have our air fuel mixture traveling a long distnce throughout the engine before it ever gets to the spark plugs to be lighted. This leaves alot of surface area that the fuel can stick to and therefore not be atomized but rather a buildup. This huge amount of surface area also takes longer to heat up since the exhaust gasses are primarily concentrated on the opposite side of the engine. A piston engine has less surface area inside the cylinder and the fuel in essence stays near the plugs at all times. when the engine fires and the exhaust is expelled out of the exhaust valve(s), the heat of combustion is still present on the valves and in the head which enables the combustion chamber to reach higher temperatures internally over a shorter amount of time. We have so many things working against us as far as starting is concerned within the rotary. In some ways it is amazing that it starts at all.

A couple of fixes for the starting issues is to either find a way to spin the engine faster, warm the inside of the combustion chamber up faster, or increase fuel vaporization. As compared to the earlier 13B engines the increased atomization is already done with this engine. The '84-'85 GSL-SE 1st gen RX-7's had only 2 fuel injectors that were 680cc. The '89-'91 n/a 2nd gen RX-7 had 4-460cc injectors. The '87-'91 Turbo II RX-7 had 4-550cc injectors. The 3rd gen RX-7 had 2-550cc and 2-850cc injectors. The RX-8 has 6-330cc injectors (I think? It's 3??cc nevertheless). All of these cars only use 2 fuel injectors to start the car while the others come in later. A smaller injector can atomize fuel into smaller particles since they spray the fuel in a finer mist at a lower flow level than their larger counterparts. As we can see from above, the RX-8 has the smallest single pair of any of the previous fuel injected rotaries and therefore a finer mist is available at lower rpms. While a smaller injector is limited ultimately in total flow ability, the RX-8 has 6 unlike the max of 4 in any previous rotary. The other 2 things would be to warm up the engine prior to starting or spin it faster. Spinning it faster would be easy and not very complicated thing to do. A larger high torque starter motor with a different gearing would do the trick. It wouldn't even take much more speed. The only way to heat up the combustion chamber would get quite complicated since it would have to be done electrically. A diesel engine needs the glow plugs heated up before the engine is started. While a glow plug is always hot and a spark plug is not, the engine starts better with more fire in it. A diesel will still start without allowing the glow plugs to heat up. It just isn't good for them and it may be harder to do. In a rotary application we could apply some sort of temporary electric heating jacket around the fuel lines to slightly heat up the fuel. Nothing in direct contact with it though. We don't need a bomb.

There is one more option though and this is probably the most practical way to do it since fuel injection makes this option very simple. There is an ecu mod for the 2nd generation RX-7 that is made by an aftermarket company. Mazda, I hope you guys are reading this! It's pathetic that you couldn't do this on your own!One of the things that this ecu mod does is to create a means that makes it easy to unflood the car. When the throttle is pressed all the way to the floor during startup, fuel flow is interrupted until you back off the throttle. You need only to floor it for a second or two with the engine cranking and then let go of the pedal. It starts up every time. Edit: I was just informed that the RX-8 already does this! Maybe minus the start up every time part. I would use this procedure every time I started the car.

Basically the 2 easiest things to do are to spin the engine faster at startup or delay the onset of fuel flow for a second or two. Viola, no more flooding issues what so ever!

Originally posted by X-SIN-X
Okay, My RX8 does not start and it is flooded. What do I do to get it started?

hi X-SIN-X,

Sorry to hear this. Did it get flooded because you had started the car and not let it warm up for at least 5 minites? Just curious.

Anyway, have you tried the following procedure from the Owner's Manual page 7-20:

"If the engine fails to start, it may be
flooded (excessive fuel in the engine).
Follow this procedure:
1. Depress the accelerator all the way and
hold it there.
2. Turn the ignition switch to the START
position and hold it there—for up to
10 seconds. If the engine starts,
release the key and accelerator
immediately because the engine will
suddenly rev up.
3. If the engine fails to start, crank it
without using the accelerator—for up
to 10 seconds."

Let us know what happened.

good luck,
rx8cited

PS: There are threads on this subject, so you may want to try searching for them.

I need to go back and edit my last response. I was not aware that the RX-8 already had the unflood proceedure which I suggested. That's what I get for only having RX-7's. I would be inclined to do that procedure every time I started the car just to be safe.

Originally posted by rotarygod
I need to go back and edit my last response. I was not aware that the RX-8 already had the unflood proceedure which I suggested. That's what I get for only having RX-7's. I would be inclined to do that procedure every time I started the car just to be safe.

That's OK -- thanks very much for all the information! As a first-time rotary owner, it was very enlightening!

yup...flooded mine..ONCE...tired after working on trying to complete my workshop and had to pull the 8 out of the garage for space to make the trusses and about 4 hrs later went to pull the 8 back into the garage and it was flooded..started for a brief second, shuttered then died,...*lump in the throat*....after about 10 minutes of off and on again starting without giving gas it cranked, sputtered, ran real rough, pulled it onto the street, got up to good warm up temp took it down the new development street...LET HER LOOSE>....haven't flooded again....don't plan to either....scary...

Originally posted by LUCKY19
Does anyone else find the nav system wrong way too often, and that the heated seats switch, and the nav control switch are located so that your arm is always accidentally hitting those switches on a six speed? This car frightens me every time i go to start it.

Aren't we going a little over the top here? I admit, if my car had flooded I would be more unhappy but the vast majority of '8s haven't flooded (there are polls on this forum.) Furthermore, I don't know of anyone who has flooded more than once, and if there is they would be in an infinitessimal minority. This doesn't mean it isn't a problem if your car is flooded at the moment; clearly that sux. What it means is, its' not some monstrous systemic problem.

If you're bumping nav/seat warmer controls you have adopted a lazy arm position in shifting. Keep your fingers lightly on the shift knob, elbow up, not resting on the center divider.

I have used my nav system probably 150 times. Of those, twice it came up really "dumb" meaning I was off the road and going in the wrong direction. The off the road part is endemic to satellite transmission problems, atmospherics affecting time-of-receipt of signal. It is very sensitive to tiny errors. Not a problem with the car, it has to do with electromagetic transmission theory and not much you can do about it. Going the wrong direction was puzzling; may be the same thing if the car gets directional info from the satelllite, otherwise it's a gyro problem. In general, as you drive the GPS will ultimately figure out where you are and the error vanishes in a minute or two. If you don't know which direction to drive, turn off the system then back on, and it oughta be ok. Not a great answer, but I have less than a 2 percent error rate which I think is pretty good. I saw the same behavior on a 2000 BMW, so I think its just state-of-the-art on consumer GPS.

If you are frightened about driving this car, then you are probably frightened of frequenting public places in case a terrorist hits, or frightened of shaking hands for fear of the flu. Just relax a little and enjoy life. Unlike other hazards of life, you can reduce the likelihood of flooding to almost zero percent with slight modification of your behavior.

It looks like only 16% of people that replied have had the flooding problem. That's not terrible, although it's one problem with the engine that most would gladly live without. *Breathing a sigh of relief* each time the car starts isn't great for building long term customer loyalty. ..Now.. all these cars probably have less then 10k on them. How will this situation play when there is 40k, some wear on the engine and just maybe the battery, plugs and general tune of the motor isn't at optimum? Most old rotary folks will remember the first cold snap with the fuel injected cars. Bring them in *on the hook* flooded... The cure for the 86 and later cars was to pull the check valve from the fuel pump. That way instead of the leaky injectors allowing all that fuel to the engine it would drain back into the tank. Since the Renesis is new, and probably doesn't have leaky injectors... yet, would a valve to dump the fuel under pressure back into the tank even be a solution? I haven't been able to get to a workshop manual yet. Anyone know if the 250rpm cranking speed from the 3rd. generation cars has carried over to the 8? Always thought that was a contributer to the flooding problem... just my 2 cent ramblings..

Originally posted by 8_wannabe

If you are frightened about driving this car, then you are probably frightened of frequenting public places in case a terrorist hits, or frightened of shaking hands for fear of the flu. Just relax a little and enjoy life. Unlike other hazards of life, you can reduce the likelihood of flooding to almost zero percent with slight modification of your behavior.

I agree with LUCKY19. I am not willing to tolerate the flooding problems associated with the RX8. We are not talking about something minor here. We are talking about something that could potentially get someone stranded. If this car floods again then I really doubt that I will keep it. My girlfriend is the primary driver of the RX8 and I just can't risk her getting stranded somewhere. We bought this car so she would have something reliable and fun to drive. If it's not reliable then it will have to go!

Looks like you'll be selling your car then. Sorry man. Have you ever owned a rotary before? Just curious. It happens to every rotary at some time or another.

Originally posted by rotarygod
Looks like you'll be selling your car then. Sorry man. Have you ever owned a rotary before? Just curious. It happens to every rotary at some time or another.

No, I've never owned a rotary before :rolleyes: I have made several posts in this forum comparing this car to my previous rotary powered vehicle (93 RX7). Back when my FD was my daily driver (1998-2002) I never once doubted that my car was going to start. I also never worried that if I stalled it might not start back up. I never worried about flooding the car during cold shut downs. My gas mileage was better than the rx8's gas mileage by more than a few miles per gallon and the car was significantly more powerful than the rx8. I'm not saying that the FD didn't have it's problems, but I was never worried about whether it was going to get my from point A to point B. Mazda took a great car (the RX7) and took out the thing that made the car unreliable (complex twin turbo system). Then they went ahead and improved on the engine design (two oil injectors per rotor, stronger redesigned 2 piece apex seals, variable intake manifold, side exhaust ports, which were supposed to improve emmssions and fuel mileage and probably some other things I am not aware of). This car has all the ingredients to be the most reliable rotary ever, and it quite possibly may be once they get all these kinks ironed out. Bottom line is...
1)my rx8 has already flooded once
2)it occasionally has a hard time starting up, almost like it's on the verge of flooding but the engine catches before it has a chance to.
3)gas mileage (with my GF driving) has been rock solid at 16 MPG. If I remember correctly, mazda claimed 18-24.

I love rotary engines and have even built a handful of them, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I was a little disappointed in the RX8.

This is my third rotary (two previous 7s) and I have never had the flooding problem. I am aware of the issue of moving the car when it is very cold and shutting it off after only w or 3 minutes and I try to avoid the situation if at all possible. But the times when it has happened I have never had a problem re-starting the car. I'm not sure why some (maybe only a small percentage of rotary engines) have this problem. But it certainly isn't a universal problem to all cars.

(On my first RX7 I had to use gas line antifreeze in very cold weather or ice would build up in the gas filter and then the car wouldn't start, but that's another story.)

So there's my two cents on flooding.

I may have figured it out but I'm not quite sure yet. Here is a possible explanation that I just posted. After some experimentation we'll see.

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17108

FWIW: I was not trying to be an ass to that guy but he did say: "If this car floods again, then I really doubt that I will keep it." It WILL flood again someday and by that statement it looks like it will get sold. The RX-7s were admittedly easier to start than the RX-8 with less flooding isses but they still do flood from time to time. I am starting to suspect that it has everything to do with the ignition system and the short plug firing time and weird idle ignition timing that I posted in the above link. The igniton system is completely different by design and operation than any previous rotary and runs in a format that we have not seen in use until now.

Originally posted by Silver7
I am not willing to tolerate the flooding problems associated with the RX8. If this car floods again then I really doubt that I will keep it. My girlfriend is the primary driver of the RX8 and I just can't risk her getting stranded somewhere. If it's not reliable then it will have to go!

Silver, I hear what you're saying and can appreciate you wanting reliable transportation for your gf. However, you also posted:

"I have owned an FD for over 5 years now and have never had the flooding problems that these rx8s are experiencing."

The FD was also known for flooding. I only know that because it has been stated in this forum about a zillion times, this is a problem of rotaries in general. Not a huge problem, except when it happens and then it is huge at the time.

The main difference between the FD and Renesis, in terms of flooding, is that the odds finally caught up to you. Surely you must have known your fellow FD owners were experiencing flooding, but the odds remained in your favor. Now that it happened, suddenly your whole perspective changes. I tend to view things statistically; much of what we encounter in life can be described by a bell curve. Most of us will never experience flooding (statistically speaking.) Many fewer will experience it repeatedly; picture the trailing tail of the bell curve. Who here has had it twice?

All this theortical stuff doesn't take the emotion out of it, especially when you are trying to take care of someone close to you. But if you look at it dispassionately, the problem overall is not that great, and if you follow basic rules then even less so. If you were to measure the overall reliability of the '8 from all causes as opposed to that of other cars from all causes, is the '8 any less reliable? I dunno, and because I dunno then moving from the '8 to another car may provide the appearance of progress while providing no progress at all. This is basic organizational theory: "When in doubt, reorganize."

On a final note, she must be one heck of a gf for you to buy her an '8. All I can say is, if you ever break up I'll be ur gf if you buy me an '8. ;)

8_wannabe - I understand what you are saying (don't agree 100%) and my intention isn't to get rid of the 8. I think some people just aren't willing to accept that their brand new $30K car has some serious issues IMO. I am using this forum to express my honest opinions and to vent my frustrations with the 8. I feel partly responsible since I steered us in the direction of the 8 and now that it is having problems I feel that I have to justify why we bought the car.

Well, along the lines of my earlier comment, the main difference between you and me is that your car has flooded and mine hasn't. If it did, maybe I'd be singing a different tune. But I had no prior knowledge of the rotary flooding issue; I came into this as a total novice.

oiy i just brought my car into the garage at like 4 in the morning motor was damn cold. well see if it starts ...

Holy...Moly...that's a big jump from "I (or my g/f) flooded my car and I'm scared for their safety".

Easy answer....WARM THE CAR FIRST IF YOU'RE ONLY DRIVING IT LESS THAN A MILE".

Truth told, my car warms up in less than a mile of driving in 20 degree temps.

Personally, I don't see this as a big deal. Since you now know what makes your car flood. Don't do it.

Besides, 600% of us don't have a flooding issue over those that do. It's not a problem for the vast, vast majority of us.

And, no, I don't have a problem with the accuracy of my NAV and, no, I don't accidentally turn on my seat heaters.

Originally posted by graphicguy
Holy...Moly...that's a big jump from "I (or my g/f) flooded my car and I'm scared for their safety".

Easy answer....WARM THE CAR FIRST IF YOU'RE ONLY DRIVING IT LESS THAN A MILE".

Truth told, my car warms up in less than a mile of driving in 20 degree temps.

Personally, I don't see this as a big deal. Since you now know what makes your car flood. Don't do it.

Besides, 600% of us don't have a flooding issue over those that do. It's not a problem for the vast, vast majority of us.

And, no, I don't have a problem with the accuracy of my NAV and, no, I don't accidentally turn on my seat heaters.

Thanks for that post... I suddenly feel very secure and all my fears of flooding are now gone!

No one said they were scared for their safety. I was implying in my previous post that it is very possible for an rx8 owner to get stranded somewhere because of this flooding issue, AND YES IT IS AN ISSUE! Not everyone lives in a perfect world where we can start our car and wait for it to warm up before we begin to drive it. Are you telling me that you have never driven your car before it was fully warmed up? There have been a number of reported incidents of people who are backing out of their driveway and the car suddenly stalls. Next thing you know the car is flooded and the only way to get it started is to have it towed to a dealer. You don't think it's possible that you could park your car at a mall somewhere and when you are backing out of your parking space (while the engine is not fully warmed up) you could stall the car causing it to flood? I'm not saying it is definitely going to happen, but it has happened to people on this forum.

Originally posted by graphicguy
Since you now know what makes your car flood. Don't do it.


This is exactly what I meant when I said "Unlike other hazards of life, you can reduce the likelihood of flooding to almost zero percent with slight modification of your behavior."

True, it isn't a perfect world. But most of those who flooded became knowledgeable of the risk after they flooded, not before. That means now they are much more educated drivers now and much less likely to repeat the problem. Very, very few of us stall our cars inadvertently. All of us have the capacity to warm up our cars before shutting down. So the combination of events of ignorance + cold shut down + flooding becomes vanishingly small. Certainly there are many other hazards far more deserving of concern than this.

I will ask for the third time, and maybe start a separate thread, who has every flooded more than once? No one yet that I know of.

Ok, I did it. I posted a poll here (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17210) to see who has flooded more than once. Please take a sec to go and vote whether you have ever flooded or not. Let's see how widespread this is and whether people are getting burned more than once.

I am not all that bent out of shape about the 8 flooding while it was in my driveway. What disappoints me is how complicated it is to unflood the car. I pulled the plugs, cleaned them, pulled the fuel pump relay, cranked the car over several times, reinstalled everything and the car still wouldn't start. I don't like turning over an engine for long periods of time, it's simply bad for the engine. I also could have replaced the spark plugs and maybe that would have helped some..... oh yea I just remembered, they are $30 a piece. I can only assume the mazda mechanic had to turn the car over many many times to get all the fuel out of the engine (not ideal for a new engine). I guess the peripheral exhaust ports on the older rotaries helped in getting all the fuel out of the engine when they would flood. This is not a luxury we have with the renesis.

I've posted my flooding story several weeks ago. I've been watching this thread with interest. Meanwhile, I work at a large company and have noticed the RX-8s on the huge lot is at 4. Though contacts and friends I've identified and polled owners. None of us have had any mechanical problems (ie, the typical mechanical gremlins that pop up on many cars during the first months of ownership). A very good sign! But 2 of us have had flooded engines...I'm counting on the flooding issue not being a big deal at this point, BUT MAzda should advise ALL potential buyers of this "issue' before a final sale is made. If I knew of this issue I would be driving a G35 or 325Ci now.

Originally posted by Silver7
Thanks for that post... I suddenly feel very secure and all my fears of flooding are now gone!

No one said they were scared for their safety. I was implying in my previous post that it is very possible for an rx8 owner to get stranded somewhere because of this flooding issue, AND YES IT IS AN ISSUE! Not everyone lives in a perfect world where we can start our car and wait for it to warm up before we begin to drive it. Are you telling me that you have never driven your car before it was fully warmed up? There have been a number of reported incidents of people who are backing out of their driveway and the car suddenly stalls. Next thing you know the car is flooded and the only way to get it started is to have it towed to a dealer. You don't think it's possible that you could park your car at a mall somewhere and when you are backing out of your parking space (while the engine is not fully warmed up) you could stall the car causing it to flood? I'm not saying it is definitely going to happen, but it has happened to people on this forum.

First of all, you're not going to get stranded. While you shouldn't flood your engine, if you do it, just call the Mazda Roadside Assistance line and they'll take care of the rest.

2nd....using your expample, I don't to anything special because of a few who have flooded their engines. I've started/stopped my 8 after only a few seconds (moving it in/out of the garage, washing it, etc. I've done this in all types of weather and all different temps....no flooding.

As mentioned before, my 8 warms up very quickly....in less than a mile of driving.

Lastly, if my car did happen to flood, I know what to do since I've practically got the owners manual memorized and with the help of those on this forum. I don't even think about it. I just jump in my ride and drive.

Merry Christmas, one and all. While the family is still asleep I will again encourage everyone to vote here (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17210) about flooding problems. As of right now, 39 have not flooded, 5 have. Of the 5, only two have flooded more than once. I have trouble believing one of them. Still, this starts to shape the magnitude of the problem and will become more valid if we can get more votes. Please take the time to do so.

My DEALER flooded my car when it was in last week, after telling me to be so careful, which I have been. It was on the service ticket. I couldn't believe it!!

Originally posted by bobm
My DEALER flooded my car when it was in last week, after telling me to be so careful, which I have been.

At least you didn't have to have it towed. ;) Hope everything was ok after they patched it up.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by graphicguy
[B]First of all, you're not going to get stranded. While you shouldn't flood your engine, if you do it, just call the Mazda Roadside Assistance line and they'll take care of the rest.

You ARE going to get stranded if you are on a trip -- longtime thread readers may remember my episode in Ann Arbor over Thanksgiving, when I initially thought my problem was the security system turning off the fuel. Mazda Roadside Assistance sent a tow truck that was neither a flatbed nor a roller type (which I've learned from this thread was a no-no, but that's how it was towed) and towed it to a dealer on the other side of Ypsilanti -- turns out it was the ONLY dealer for 30 miles open on Saturday, and their one Mazda tech did not come in that day. Fortunately, the car started after the extended cranking procedure. What if it were Sunday and I was about to head home; where would they have towed the car to?

Even after we drove it 530 miles home, which ought to clear fouled plugs, my local dealer replaced the plugs the next week, so they must have STILL shown some effects.

Perhaps a reason the engine races so on a cold start is to make it less likely that we'll stall it (though I assume emissions is the major reason) and we all know what such idling does to our gas mileage.

Basically, I think we all agree on a number of points: (1) we love the car; (2) we hate the flooding and low MPG; (3) we're pissed at Mazda for neither warning us nor coming clean to potential buyers re either problem (in addition to their lack of full candor re the HP issue).

I'm in the camp that says it ain't worth selling the car over, but please don't tell me it couldn't be serious. I'm not equipped to pull the plugs, etc., and if the dealer weren't there on a Saturday my wife and I would have had only unpleasant (for somebody) options about getting back to VA the Sunday of Thanksgiving.

And no, it hasn't flooded again, but the unpleasant thought intrudes on startup, warm-up and shut-down, detracting from all the fun I have driving the car the rest of the time.

I can't understand why people are being so hard on Silver7. I love my 8 but in the back of my mind I think about the flooding. I read the manual and tried thier way to clear it and it still didn't start. Will I trade my car in because of this? No but I'm not pleased about the problem. I had a 93 7 and it never flooded so I was not familiar with this problem. Roadside Assistance doesn't help on a Sunday afternoon in NY when you have to be at work Monday morning in Virginia.

car won't start. don't think its the battery cuz the lights work. Live in San Francisco area so its not to cold here. Any suggestions????
thanks

Does the engine crank?

no-

I called Mazda's 24 hr roadside assistance. They will be coming with a flat bed to bring the car and me to the dealer at 715ish PST. The service center opens at 730 I left a message with the service manger telling him I would be coming, what the trouble was, and to get a loaner ready.. trying to stay calm.

More details would help. Have you checked the battery cables? Is the clutch pedal fully pressed or in park for AT?

Did I hear somewhere that a clutch sensor had gone bad on some ones car maybe and also caused this?

battery cables ok. It's a MT and I fully pressed the clutch. The lights work, the radio works etc.
thanks

Try a search for 'clutch sensor' and see if something comes up, maybe I saw it here or another board, not sure.

Good luck, and it is probably minor, but still a PITA regardless.

I have seen circumstances before where electical works but won't crank car. There's enough juice in the battery for the lights and radio, but not the starter. If that was the case, if you left the lights on, they would probably dim within 10 min or less.

service tech came, tried to jump car but no success. So off to the dealer we went on a flat bed. Maybe it is flooded, but I always make sure I rev it to 3k before turning engine off when driving less than 5 mins.
Thanks all who posted in my hour of need.

Let us know what they find out. And good luck.

It was flooded. I can pick it today. Came to find out that the other half who has not driven car too much pulled it out of garage to check the inside controls out...to learn it all. then drove it back in the garage after a few minutes. I have been in the practice of reving it to 3k if I know I am not going to drive for more than the 5 min. Forgot to share this info. But it still sucks that we have to deal with this. Definately a flaw of an other wise beautiful car. However sometimes when the other half takes it to work, it will be parked in a small lot where it needs to be moved to let other cars get out (like a valet scenerio). I am going to make a small sign to put in eyes view: Rev engine to 3k for 10-15 secs before shutting off engine. Hope this works...

So, the engine would crank.

It just would not start.

yes I guess so. I do not know much about engines. I am just a gal in love with the RX8. Picked up car. They did an oil change for me since I was almost at 3k. But alas they used 5W-30. What's with these service people. I asked the service manger about it and he responded "oh you can use 30 no problem." I can't believe this.
Anyway thanks again to all who posted.
Hope your new your brings no floods...

Glad to know that the car is ok. I just can't help but be amuse by you referring to him as "your other half". You must be pissed at him, I guess. :)

Swoozie, just saw this post. Did they take it to Royal Mazda, curious if you remember any of the service techs names. Sorry to hear it was flooded, happy to hear you got it taken care of! :D

downshift- other half is a she and I am not pisssed at her. I never told her about the 5 min running or reving to 3k. My fault. Althogh I still don't get why it didn't start this morning when the incident happened yesterday afternoon. Why does it stay flooded for all that time?

brothervoodoo-Live in Marin so car went to Marin Mazda.

take care

Hi,
Not tooo worried about flooding as my dealer forewarned me about the problem ( after I paid for it ) and the oil consumption. What worries me is the abuse to the CAT in the exhaust system. I have seen no mention of this and unless I am very wrong the drastic effects on the internals of a CAT over a period of time by unburnt fuel will destroy it over time. As all cars are new, how will Mazda view future CAT failure claims when they deem it driver error. I have personnally changed many Exhaust CATS due to missfires etc and it does not take much petrol to destroy them. It is ok Mazda changing plugs and oil everytime but this I feel is very short term. Unburnt fuel = damage to CATS. If this has been covered I apologise. Still love me 8

I can't seem to understand how you guys just blow off this issue. Sorry but this is not normal. There is no excuse for them to produce a car that they know will have start issues if a certain event takes place. It may not have happened to some of ya'll but what about the owners that don't know about this site or have never heard of this? Nice to see some of the answers to, You shouldn't have bought it if you don't want to deal with it. Come on it's a 30K car not a freakin 100K exotic, that needs special attention or certain parts and service. Ferrai's ENZO needs a $7,000 oil change. Why? becasue they have special oil made by them for that car! (not sure if it matters) but do you think they tell potential buyers about that? I would suspect so.

As the time goes by more and more little things are coming out about this car. And not good either. That adds up to less buyers.

Sniper,

Hopefully Mazda will address the issue by informing buyers or better yet fixing the problem.

What made you chose the handle "sniper"?

Originally posted by silvercloud
Sniper,

Hopefully Mazda will address the issue by informing buyers or better yet fixing the problem.



Don't count on it, I had an 85 Rx-7(gsl-se) and currently have an 87 rx-7 turbo, both had cold start/flooding problems.

Ok, this might work for some. Over the holiday I asked a friend of mine to keep my car for me while we went away on a trip. He's a business owner and agreed to lock it up in his garage (since I've only got a driveway) Quite naturally, it flooded when he stalled it.

Discouraged, and wishing I'd found this site earlier, I thought I'd try to get it to run on my own. What I did:

- Tried normal crank, it sounded flooded, also sounded like it wasn't spinning fast enough to crank.

- The working solution I got (note this is only temporary, you still need to replace the plugs, oil filter, and oil) was to put a battery charger on the car, unplug the fuel injector fuse, and crank it until it starts. You will kill the battery w/o a charger on it, because it takes so long to kick it over. Also, don't just sit there and continuously crank it, you'll burn out the starter, do it in 10-15 second periods. It took about 7-10 tries before it would start, you could tell it was trying to burn the fuel by the amt of smoke pouring out of the exhaust.

Once I got it to run, I let it run as long as it would.. Then I shut it down and put the fuse back in. Now the check engine light stays on, but at least I can drive it to the dealer w/o waiting for them to arrange towing to the shop (65 miles away)..

Again, it might work for some, not for others. But it did for me. Still disappointed that this is even a problem, you would think they'd have a better fuel management system.

-Adamra

mv /etc/flames /dev/null

New to the board - First post:

Hopefully I can offer some statistical validity . . .
I have personally driven Rotary powered cars/truck for over 300,000 miles and have experienced the flooding on multiple occasions in a each generation of the 7 and now in the 8. My wife came home the other night from the movies about 8-10 miles away and parked the car. I heard her perform the throttle tap prior to shutting the engine down which will generally alleviate flooding issues whether cold or hot. Nevertheless the engine was hot and a day and a 1/2 later I went to fire it up and the RENISIS was dead. Lets just face it the 8 has a glorfied 13B with a revised intake contraption as ridiculous as the 1st gen 7, only this time they named it RENISIS and marketed the heck out of it. Nevermind all the hardline hoses intentionally placed in front of the plugs to keep us from maintaining our own vehicles.

There is no good place to tow from on the car like the hooks on previous the previous 7's, so I ended up having to tow my car from the strut tower brace. We towed it in gear until it started about 1/2 way around the block. Luckily my buddy has a Dodge Cummins Diesel with 550 lb ft of torque. There was a massive cloud of black smoke and finally it ran.

My primary concerns, as has been mentioned before, are the damage that is being done to the Catalyst and what is Mazda doing to resolve the problem.

I'm guessing all it is, is that the fuel pump is releasing the "vacuum" on the fuel line as the engine is turned off and any fuel injectors that are open dump the fuel in the combustion chambers - Just my humble opinion.

But definately an valid complaint that Mazda needs to address.

Let me reitterate - this engine was hot went the flooding occurred.

My wife (nice to have somebody to blame!) moved my rx8 about 30 feet and shut of the engine. It was flooded when I tried to start it.

What I did was what was suggested on this site; I floored the pedal and tried to start it for about 10 seconds. Then let go, waited some seconds and repeated without the pedal pressed.

After about 10x this procedure it started with tons of smoke pouring out.

I took the car for a drive to warm it up and it behaved nicely. When it was warm I floored it and when the rev hit about 6.5k's, it stalled.

I let go of the gas pedal, and tried about 5 other quick accelerations with revs up to 7.5k with no stalls.

Not sure if my ports were clogged up or something the first time I hit 6.5k after the flooding..

/twospoons

The car has a start up procedure where you floor the gas and crank, it's on the manual. What this does is kill the gas pump, essentially the same as removing the fuse.

How did you keep the car running without the fuel injection fuse? Lost me on that one.

Every time you get in the car, you should push the pedal all the way to the floor while you try to start it. Only hold the pedal for a couple of seconds and then let go. It shouldn't flood at all.

maybe it had so much fuel in the chanbers that it kept going even without the fuel injection fuse? Doesn't the side exhaust ports recirculate unburned fuel? I keep thinking the flooding issue is possibly due to the rich maps we have...

I know the following comparison is way out for a car but here goes: my 2 cycle RC truck keeps running for a few seconds after I cut the gas supply, I can even start it again for a few more seconds to "clean" the engine of the nitro fuel...

Here's a copy of something I posted on the West regional forum regarding some thoughts over flooding and revving the engine prior to shutting it off:

Here's my theory on the "rev to 3500" option...

When the engine is above idle and you're completely off the gas (such as when you're coasting down a hill in gear), it will completely shut off fuel delivery as the engine decellerates until it gets down to somewhere near idle.

So the thought being if you rev the engine up to 3500-4000 or so, then let off the gas completely then turn the key off as the revs are coming down it should (in theory) be much less likely to flood becuase there is no fuel delivery to the engine prior to you shutting it down - no fuel, no flood.

The other theory I have is that it could be easier to flood the engine when it stops running unexpectedly, such as when it's stalled when cold or when it's running rough and conks-out rather than you shutting it off with the key. My thought on that is there may be a brief period after the engine stops/bogs/conks prior to when the ECU stops firing gas in there, causing some residual fuel to be hanging around.

Just speculation, but it makes sense to me.

Simon.

Just wondering how the car gets out from the factory floor in Japan without flooding issue? Can somebody find out the trick or explain why they do not have the flooding problems.

1, The car moves few yards to the parking lot from the factory
2, move to the car trailer or rail and move to staging area ready for the ship
3, at port they drive it up to the ship car carrier
4, move the car to port from ship
5, move to auto trailers or rails
6, unload from trailer to dealership

I guess they know something, the shipping agents must have big sticker "WARM UP 5 MINUTES BEFORE SHIFT IN GEAR"....or they installed a timer in car you can not shutoff after 5 minutes…
Plus... it is a empty tank!

If you do a search, you'll find that people have flooded the 8 delivering it to the dealers. I think your big sticker conjecture is spot on.

Originally posted by TY_888
Just wondering how the car gets out from the factory floor in Japan without flooding issue? Can somebody find out the trick or explain why they do not have the flooding problems.

1, The car moves few yards to the parking lot from the factory
2, move to the car trailer or rail and move to staging area ready for the ship
3, at port they drive it up to the ship car carrier
4, move the car to port from ship
5, move to auto trailers or rails
6, unload from trailer to dealership

I guess they know something, the shipping agents must have big sticker "WARM UP 5 MINUTES BEFORE SHIFT IN GEAR"....or they installed a timer in car you can not shutoff after 5 minutes…
Plus... it is a empty tank!

Ha!
That was just exactly why many people had their engine flooded shortly after they received their car. I don't think the rotary engine will just get flooded after 1 short drive, it might takes a couple of short drives/ons and offs without driving off to flood the engine. So it might not be the owner's fault, it could've started way before when the car is just rolling off the production line.

Reminder: the battery is a key part of the problem (or it's state of charge rather). The chance of flooding it with a fully charged battery is much lower. This is why there are more flooded cars during the winter time;when battery's state of charge are generally lower across the board. When they're new the charge tends to be up.When they get to port they've been sitting,when at the dealer they sit. There-in lies part of the problem.
When you buy one of these you may want to trickle charge your battery to reduce this incidence.

Originally posted by neit_jnf
The car has a start up procedure where you floor the gas and crank, it's on the manual. What this does is kill the gas pump, essentially the same as removing the fuse.

This seems to be a piece of misinformation thats going around. A dealership mechanic tried to sell me on it as well. The proof is in the pudding. Depress the pedal and have a friend listen to the gas pump, it stays running. I also observed that the throttle body servo doesnt actuate via the gas pedal during starting.

My guess is this came from the Rx-7s. Starting in 85, all rx-7s had software in the ecu to stop the fuel injectors if the gas pedal is fully depressed to evacuate the motor in the event of a cold start/flooding problem. Prior to 85(and non gls-se 85 models) the driver owuld have to pull the ignitors on either side of the distributor and crank the motor. Some of us rx-7 folks still had to pull the egi fuse and spark plugs every now and then if it flooded bad.

I don't know if the rx-8 has any code for flooding but it would seem to make sense. Since taking an asm dump of the 8 is almost worthless, we may never know what code the ecu has for this.

Originally posted by Artifex
This seems to be a piece of misinformation thats going around. A dealership mechanic tried to sell me on it as well. The proof is in the pudding. Depress the pedal and have a friend listen to the gas pump, it stays running. I also observed that the throttle body servo doesnt actuate via the gas pedal during starting.

My guess is this came from the Rx-7s. Starting in 85, all rx-7s had software in the ecu to stop the fuel injectors if the gas pedal is fully depressed to evacuate the motor in the event of a cold start/flooding problem. Prior to 85(and non gls-se 85 models) the driver owuld have to pull the ignitors on either side of the distributor and crank the motor. Some of us rx-7 folks still had to pull the egi fuse and spark plugs every now and then if it flooded bad.

I don't know if the rx-8 has any code for flooding but it would seem to make sense. Since taking an asm dump of the 8 is almost worthless, we may never know what code the ecu has for this.

Well -

1) The owner's manual specifically lists the same de-choke procedure as any other Mazda that had the 100% throttle cranking fuel cutoff

2) There is a 0% injector duty cycle during the de-choke. Verified that with my trusty new Extech MultiScope.:p

The MAzda de-choke routine never cut the fuel pump, only the injectors.

Maniac beat me to it. The fuel pump still runs with the pedal pushed all the way down. The fuel injectors just don't spray anything. It is not misinformation. It is fact.

The RX-7's did not have this feature until the 1989 S5 bodystyle upgrade to the 2nd gen. Prior to the '89 2nd gen, the '86-'88 S4 2nd gen did not have this feature either.

You do not have to pull ignitor on the distributors of 1st gens. There is no point to this. That would kill spark and this you do not want to do. You want to stop fuel from entering. You want spark. Pulling the EGI fuse is common on 1st gen GSL-SE's and '86-'88 2nd gens. I have never once had to remove plugs and clean them when the engine is flooded. Just push or pull the car and pop the clutch. It'll start. I'm not too sure about the credibility of the person who works on your car with such a huge amount of "misinformation".

BTW: I have an '84 GSL-SE 1st gen, have had an '88 2nd gen, and now have an '89 2nd gen. This is how I know.

They do flood in port.

My dealer is the nearest to the port, and has had several flooded cars in to remedy delivered on a flat bed truck!

Originally posted by dablues
I can't understand why people are being so hard on Silver7. I love my 8 but in the back of my mind I think about the flooding. I read the manual and tried thier way to clear it and it still didn't start. Will I trade my car in because of this? No but I'm not pleased about the problem. I had a 93 7 and it never flooded so I was not familiar with this problem. Roadside Assistance doesn't help on a Sunday afternoon in NY when you have to be at work Monday morning in Virginia.

:) Thank You! I could not agree more.

Originally posted by M-ster
Ha!
That was just exactly why many people had their engine flooded shortly after they received their car. I don't think the rotary engine will just get flooded after 1 short drive, it might takes a couple of short drives/ons and offs without driving off to flood the engine. So it might not be the owner's fault, it could've started way before when the car is just rolling off the production line.

No, this is a common misconception that I've heard mentioned here a few times. The flooding will not build up. Once the engine starts successfully and warms up to operating temp it is not more likely to flood again. If the spark plugs are covered in fuel it should burn off once the motor does start. Fuel getting into the oil is the only real lasting effect of flooding, but it shouldn't contribute to future flooding.

The flooding it caused by too much liquid fuel being present in the combustion chambers. Once the engine starts this fuel is burnt off / spit out the exhaust.

Originally posted by silvercloud
Sniper,

Hopefully Mazda will address the issue by informing buyers or better yet fixing the problem.

What made you chose the handle "sniper"?

I would hope so but that type of problem has me leaning towards the G35 more.

8 years as a B4 in the Army qualifies me to use it! lol.

Maniac pointed out that he scoped it and found the injectors sit at 0% duty cycle. This proves there is some cold start/ flooding code. I never said there wasn't, I just wasn't sure since I dont have source code, I even said it makes sense that there should me.

The misinformation I talked about it the guy that posted first said the fuel pump is cut. Maniac and you both agree with me that this is wrong.

It was common practice to pull the plugs to evacuate. It takes much less effort than a rolling start or lots of cranking. This is even a good way to get a motor with a blown water jacket to light one last time to get you home.

The reason you pull the ignitors on the 1st gens is if you have to pull the plugs to evacuate you have have to kill ignition. The reason I KNOW is I had (RIP :( ) a 85 gsl-se, even though it always had strong compression (90-90-85), it would flood really bad because my 680cc secondaries were leaky. The gsl-se did have full throttle code in the ecu, as I recall the shop manual said this can also be activated by derpessed the fast idle dashpot on the TB(impossible for one person to do though).

The reason I know that my T2 also had full throttle code (as well as all 2nd and 3rd gens ) is I have the code dumps from the ecus ( I think I only saved 1 or 2 asm revisions -hmm long time ago) .

Anyway my point is I don't want to get into an arguement, just that folks had said the fuel pump is cut and this isnt true. I'm actually dissapointed that mazda hasn't figured out a solution for this after 25 years of this exact problem. Since the only cars I've ever owned were rx-7s its a way of life for me but I sure wish it wasn't.

Originally posted by rotarygod
How did you keep the car running without the fuel injection fuse? Lost me on that one.

Every time you get in the car, you should push the pedal all the way to the floor while you try to start it. Only hold the pedal for a couple of seconds and then let go. It shouldn't flood at all.

Hey RotaryGod, pushing the pedal to the floor while you start it...should we hold the pedal there for a couple of seconds, like the procedure in the manual? And then holding the pedal for a couple of secs, after it starts, so let the car redline for a couple of secs from a cold start? Not criticizing, just trying to get the details of this system so I can do it everytime i start up without flooding.

Originally posted by skagen
Hey RotaryGod, pushing the pedal to the floor while you start it...should we hold the pedal there for a couple of seconds, like the procedure in the manual? And then holding the pedal for a couple of secs, after it starts, so let the car redline for a couple of secs from a cold start? Not criticizing, just trying to get the details of this system so I can do it everytime i start up without flooding.

NO!

Once the motor starts, let go of the throttle immediately.
No need to redline the motor before the oil starts to flow and everything is up to temperature!

It would help if Mazda had designed a starter that would spin this thing over at 500 plus rpm. 250 rpm isn't fast enough, especially in weak battery, cold tempreature situations. I'm a little surprised that with all the refinements to the engine, that they let the flooding and oil pan issues into production. Down the road, leaky injector issues will effect hot start situations as well. Again, a starter with some real cranking power would greatly help that situation. Almost any rotary will start if you push it off, like the other posters here have commented on. Subsitute a faster cranking speed and many present and future problems will disappear.

I concur Habeeb. Happy Newyear also by the way sir.
p.s. Camels seem to do well with a kickstart.

I've been saying that for a long time and you agree with HIM!!! Damn! ;)

Originally posted by skagen
Hey RotaryGod, pushing the pedal to the floor while you start it...should we hold the pedal there for a couple of seconds, like the procedure in the manual? And then holding the pedal for a couple of secs, after it starts, so let the car redline for a couple of secs from a cold start? Not criticizing, just trying to get the details of this system so I can do it everytime i start up without flooding.


I NEVER start the car with pumping/ pushing the pedal , thats why you guys are flooding your engines , leave the pedal alone .
My starting procedure is to simple switch on the ignition i do not depress the pedal my car stars on time everytime , no problems .

Australian cars are not flooding as much as u guys , mostly because we dont pump the gas pedal before we start our cars.

michael

deleted

Originally posted by Lock & Load
I NEVER start the car with pumping/ pushing the pedal , thats why you guys are flooding your engines , leave the pedal alone .
My starting procedure is to simple switch on the ignition i do not depress the pedal my car stars on time everytime , no problems .

Australian cars are not flooding as much as u guys , mostly because we dont pump the gas pedal before we start our cars.

michael

I don't think anyone is pumping the gas. In the manual is says to depress the gas pedal and HOLD it down. I think that's the suggestion RotaryGod was giving for when starting. I understand your argument as well though, if you start going crazy on the gas pedal with a pump action then I can see how a flood can occur there as well.

Originally posted by skagen
I don't think anyone is pumping the gas. In the manual is says to depress the gas pedal and HOLD it down. I think that's the suggestion RotaryGod was giving for when starting. I understand your argument as well though, if you start going crazy on the gas pedal with a pump action then I can see how a flood can occur there as well.

Skagen .

Is it possible that the manual is wrongly printed?, even by depressing the gas pedal and holding it down in my opinion you are getting too much petrol into the chamber AND CAUSING IT TO FLOOD EASIER .

I never use that method my car has never came even close to flooding.

Can you point out the page number in the manual for me , and i will check our Australian manual to see if the information corres
ponds.

thanks

michael

Originally posted by neit_jnf
The car has a start up procedure where you floor the gas and crank, it's on the manual. What this does is kill the gas pump, essentially the same as removing the fuse.

The thread is going further and futher away from the facts.

Like what neit_jnf had said, the start up and floor the gas method is for a flooded engine and NOT to avoid flooding the engine. Basically, when you floor the gas pedal, it will cut off the gas pump from injecting fuel into the engine thus avoid futher flooding the already flooded engine.

So rotarygod's advise to skagen was to let go of the padel once if the engine comes to live from a flood.

And skagen has a miss-conception which I use to have, you are NOT suppose to use this method on the day to day start up thinking that it will prevent flooding the engine.

Originally posted by Lock & Load
Skagen .

Is it possible that the manual is wrongly printed?, even by depressing the gas pedal and holding it down in my opinion you are getting too much petrol into the chamber AND CAUSING IT TO FLOOD EASIER .

I never use that method my car has never came even close to flooding.

Can you point out the page number in the manual for me , and i will check our Australian manual to see if the information corres
ponds.

thanks

michael

In the North American manual its page 7-20. I didn't think that starting up using that procedure would be a good idea, but RotaryGod suggested, or maybe I just read it wrong, that starting up like that you would less likely get a flooded engine. Lock & Load my thoughts were definitely similar to yours. When I first read the procedures in my manual for the starting a flooded engine, I was like uhhhhhh....wouldn't I just be pushing more gas by pressing and holding down on the accelerator, but some on this board have posted that when you hold it down for 10 seconds or so it shuts off the fuel pump. Ironic isn't it, pushing down on the gas pedal to prevent more fuel lol.

I am a new owner who hasn't turned the key yet. I thank all of you for the lesson....

Originally posted by rotarygod
How did you keep the car running without the fuel injection fuse? Lost me on that one.

Every time you get in the car, you should push the pedal all the way to the floor while you try to start it. Only hold the pedal for a couple of seconds and then let go. It shouldn't flood at all.

hello rotarygod,

Please clarify some confusion on the above post. Are you recommending we push the pedal down as described in your above post every time we start our cars - even if the engine is not flooded ?

If you answer yes, then should we push and hold the pedal down before turning the key or while turning the key?

Am I correct to assume that if we have the pedal down before the key is turned, then no fuel will get pumped into the combustion chamber at all, however if we push it down during or after turning the key, some fuel will get pumped into the chamber, possibly contributing to flooding?

Thanks and Happy New Year,
rx8cited

Originally posted by Go4It
I am a new owner who hasn't turned the key yet. .....

hi Go4It ,

Congrats ...... what are you waiting for?

Happy New Year,
rx8cited

Cars paid for but still at the dealer. I had the spare tire kit removed and the app. pack, accent and 6-disc installed. Should be ready tomorrow or Sat.. I'll be a drivin fool as soon as its ready.......I haven't had a toy since I got rid of my '82 Vette, that was years ago..

OK somehow this got confusing. Some people do disagree with me though and that is cool. With the gas pedal pushed all the way to the floor (engine off obviously) the ecu stops fuel flow into the engine so the engine is cranking over with no fuel what so ever entering it other than what may or may not be there. The manual says that to unflood the car you should push the pedal all the way down and crank for 10 seconds. Then to crank the car again without the pedal pushed all the way down. The first crank gives the engine time to hopefully expel all of the fuel in the engine without allowing any more to enter and make matters worse. Since we have the inherent problem that Mazda fires the engine at idle and startup with the trailing plugs first which don't have near the spark intensity, we need to make sure that we can get a clean spark going first before we hit it with fuel. The RX-8 also does not have wasted spark which fires the leading plugs twice as often. The RX-8 ecu does the same thing that every RX-7 has done since 1989 in regards to fuel cutoff with the throttle floored. When you want to start the car, before you turn the key, as in the manual unflood procedure, press the gas pedal all the way to the floor and hold it there. Now crank the engine with the throttle still floored. No fuel is entering the engine at this time. This gives the starter the chance to get the engine up to full cranking speed (which only takes a fraction of a second but every bit helps), expels any left over fuel, and fires the plugs a couple times to clear off any deposits. You only need to hold your foot down for a couple of seconds and then take your foot off the gas while still cranking the engine. It should start right up but no absolute guarantee. This is more reliable than just getting in and turning the key though. It sounds like a long drawnout process that takes a long time but we are only talking about a couple of seconds. Just get in, floor it, crank it, take your foot off and go. It could have all been done in the time it took to read that sentence. The key is that the pedal gets pressed before the key gets turned to ignition so no fuel is sprayed into the engine for that quick moment it takes to get the pedal all the way down. Just make it a habit when you get in the car. Left foot holds in the clutch (if you have one) and the right foot holds down the gas. That is the simplest way to do it. The manual may say that the pedal should be held down only in the even of flooding but by then it is too late so what is the point? Mazda also suggests that you use only the same brand fluids and brake pads on the car that it came with and also only use Mazda certified mechanics on the car. I know everyone does this. You get the point. It is in the book just in case it happens. It is easier to tell people what to do after the fact if it even happens at all then it is to tell them a new procedure than they are used to should be used.

There are many remedies Mazda can do. Fire the leading plugs first at startup with wasted spark mode, delay the onset of fuel injection at startup by a measly second, and spin the engine over faster with a better starter. That sounds simple to me but still much more compliated then just getting in the car and flooring it. That is the most realistic way to deal with it.

I wanted to make a couple of notes:

1.) I knew the procedure was in the manual, and I tried it 7-10 times with no luck.. To the letter, hold the gas down for 10 seconds while cranking, then try it w/o.. No joy.

2.) I pulled the fuse mainly so the engine would burn any fuel that remained in the chambers. I wasn't aware of whether the pumps or injectors were still injecting gass or not, so I made sure they couldn't.. At least as sure as I thought I could be.

3.) The dealership agreed to replace my oil, filter, and plugs under warranty. So if it's needed or not, I'm going to do it. That, and I'm interested in seeing how the plugs look. I've heard some say that the initial burn-off in these engines really puts out a bunch of residuals, especially on the plugs.

Also, does anyone have any official tech documents on the workings of the car, such as the gas pedal injectors question? Just curious.

-Adamra

Since the trailing plugs fire first at startup, if they are even slightly dirty you will have issues with starting even if the engine is no longer flooded. I'd definitely like to see what the plugs look like. They can usually be cleaned instead of replaced.

The people who have been working with aftermarket ecu electronics have verified that the ecu does run the fuel pump but the injector duty cycle is at zero with the pedal pushed all the way down. This verifies what Mazda claims in regards to the unflooding procedure. Mazda has not directly stated how it works only that it is there. Others here have figured it out. It is these people who will make solving many of the inherent problems of this car much easier and it is wonderful that they post their findings here.

A number of people have mentioned that the car has trouble recovering from a flood around freezing when the air is moist. That was my situation exactly.

Also, another person posted that there is a hotter plug available for the leading side, RE6A-L. This is "available only for customers who often drive their car at very low speed which causes the plugs to foul easily." See these two posts:

New plugs for the flooding issue (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17814)
Spark plug fouling remedy (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17851)

I'm very confused if this is something I want or not... My car should be deflooded by the dealer tomorrow. I think I'll let them decide.

I've had a 1993 RX-7 for almost four years now, and never had a problem with flooding...until I blew the motor and made quite a few changes.

I've seriously been considering the RX-8 as a replacement since my 7 hasn't run correctly for about 18 months now, but to be honest this flooding issue is really turning me away. If I'm going to pay `$30k for a car, it sure as hell better be able to handle daily, short trips to work, the store, etc. I live two minutes from work and most of the stores I go to, and have no desire to drive around needlessly on busy roads just to avoid flooding my car. Needless driving should be for having fun, not out of necessity!

My biggest concern are the posts from people who stalled the car just backing out of the garage and couldn't get it restarted. That's just plain ridiculous. I really thought Mazda would have addressed such issues...if they want a rotary car to appeal to a mass market, they can't have a problem as stupid as this!

I hopped over here after reading numerous complaints about flooding on Edmunds.com, thinking maybe it was an isolated group of posters who had problems.

I'm really disappointed, because I absolutely LOVE the way the 8 looks, and I'm sure it handles great, etc, but I've had enough headaches with my 7. I'm tired of wondering if I'll make it home or down the driveway!

I used to be a huge fan of the rotary, but I'm really beginning to doubt whether it's advantages (size, weight, power output, etc) are really worth all it's quirks - I just don't see today's mainstsream consumers wanting to deal with it :(

Originally posted by 1 bad 7
I used to be a huge fan of the rotary, but I'm really beginning to doubt whether it's advantages (size, weight, power output, etc) are really worth all it's quirks - I just don't see today's mainstsream consumers wanting to deal with it :(

Several quick comments:

- I agree, it is a sad thing that a the rotary has too many quirks for mainstream use.

- You need to remember that the flooding issue only effects a small percentage of cars. Hence your risk is pretty small.

- While it is popularly believed that flooding is associated with driver behavior, this has not been proven statistically either way. Some anichdotal evidence on this forum indicates otherwise.

- The RX-8 is a great car and, from what you say, I think you would love owning one.

- Shop for a really good deal or buy a used 8. That way if it turns out to be a problem (highly unlikely) you can sell the car with little-to-no financial loss.

Like you, if I were buying an 8 right now I would have second thoughts. However, since I already own an 8, I can say that my car has never had ANY problems, never flooded and has been a dream to drive.

1 bad....on the other hand, it sounds like the car isn't for you. The RENESIS' is different than a piston engine. It takes a little (very little) different procedure in its care/feeding...not better or worse, just different.

If you aren't willing to take the time to familiarize yourself with the RENESIS, then you won't be happy. If you do put out a little effort, you will be rewarded with one of the best sports car driving experiences on the planet.

It sounds like you've already made up your mind, though.

I guess more than anything it's disappointing to hear of the flooding problems, even if they are limited occurrences overall. That's a problem I had with my 1988 RX-7 GXL, and not with my 3rd gen, so it's difficult to comprehend how something like that is rearing it's head again on an engine that has received so many accolades. If I purchase an 8, it's going to be my daily driver, and I don't expect to have to worry about something like flooding on a 2004 car model.

I'll admit I had/have very high expectations for the RENESIS engine...mainly, reliability and longevity after having to replace the motor on my 3rd gen at only ~60k miles :)

Believe me, I know the rotary is unlike a piston engine - I've defended and touted the rotary to my friends and family numerous times...even though they all think I'm crazy. I love the sheer simplicity of the core design, but we're almost 20 years past that 2nd gen RX-7 and by now it would seem reasonable to expect the "quirks" of the rotary to be ironed out :)

Maybe I'm not explaining it right - I think I'm kind of rambling, actually - it is still tempting to get an 8, but these early *isolated* flooding issues concern me. The oil light, restated HP numbers, etc don't bother me; with a brand new model I expect that. I DON'T expect to have to worry about needing to tow my brand new car, though!

(and no, I haven't test driven one yet - hopefully today!)

Sorry for the "book...."

Originally posted by graphicguy
1 bad....on the other hand, it sounds like the car isn't for you. The RENESIS' is different than a piston engine. It takes a little (very little) different procedure in its care/feeding...not better or worse, just different.

If you aren't willing to take the time to familiarize yourself with the RENESIS, then you won't be happy. If you do put out a little effort, you will be rewarded with one of the best sports car driving experiences on the planet.

It sounds like you've already made up your mind, though.

I test drove an RX8 this morning. The sales monkey gave me the keys to a cold car, I fired the car up and immediately shut it down. There was a moment of panic on the sales guys face but fortunately the car started.

After the test drive I spoke with a shop mechanic for reassurances about flooding problems. He suggested following the proceedures in the manual, but said it's typically not a problem.

The car is so damm fun to drive I've lost complete objectivity. If following proceedures and the slight risk of flooding are the price of entry so be it. I'm hooked, my car comes in on Friday!

- Justin

Well, after staying up until almost 7am this morning researching the 8 and the new Mazda 3, I headed up to the dealer today and started talking. I'm still torn between being "responsible" and "practical" or getting what I really want, whether it's an 8, a WRX, etc, but I wanted to start looking at them more closely and do some drivin'.

LOVED the 8 - no big surprise there. Just like my 7, once you get in and start driving you kind of forget about anything else than finding the next open road...probably spent 30 minutes at least on the test drive (sales girl was cute, too, so that was a bonus ;) )

The 3 was really nice, too...especially given the price. I test drove the 4-door S model. Seemed kind of sluggish after the 8, but it was pretty fun to drive still, and handles really well. Very cramped on foot space, though, which surprised me. My left foot hit the foot rest every time I pushed in the clutch. The 8 was actually more comfortable because of that.

Comparing the 8 to my 7...hard to say since the 7 hasn't run right since May 02! The biggest difference was ride quality/stability. Much smoother, without the constant jerking of the wheel with every little rut in the road, and very solid feel to it. Handles awesome, as most people on here already know :D I did kind of miss the low end "oomph" of the sequential turbo system on the 7, but was really impressed with throttle response and the oh-so-familiar rush of accelleration as RPMs increase...and the sound!!! :drool:

Overall, very impressed with both the 3 and the 8, but obviously more so with the 8. Still concerned about the flooding thing, but I will admit it's not as much of an issue now that I've driven one.

Sigh. Decisions decisions decisions.... Thanks for the feedback - this forum rocks as much as the RX7 one!

Originally posted by justin_jag
The sales monkey gave me the keys to a cold car, I fired the car up and immediately shut it down. There was a moment of panic on the sales guys face but fortunately the car started. Now that's funny. Did he bother saying anything to you about flooding (and did you play dumb) or did he try to keep his panic to himself while secretly crossing his fingers that the '8 would start a second time? I don't thing the salesmen are being very forthcoming about the flooding issue.

The sales guy was clearly concerned. He didn't say anything but his expression said it all. The service guy was very honest about the problem. He's worked on several cars that had been stranded on the lot.

I ended up buying the car because of the honesty of the service guy.

- Justin

One more time, for those of you who missed it. A key part of the problem is cranking speed or lack thereof. The battery's state of charge is almost always to bame for this condition. If you feel inclined to purchase an 8, by all means do so. Once this is done have your battery trickle charged to ensure full and deep charge. This is never a bad or detrimental procedure, and is most beneficial when a battery is new.

Originally posted by CERAMICSEAL
have your battery trickle charged to ensure full and deep charge. This is never a bad or detrimental procedure, and is most beneficial when a battery is new.
Best way to do this is...? Someone else recommended buying the TRUECHARGE 20+ (http://www.vitelectronics.com/SP20.html) , but that seems like a pricey solution.

http://www.vitelectronics.com/tc20.gif

ceramicseal....I wasn't aware that anything definitive has been shown that it's, either partially or wholly, a battery issue. Have you had a dealer tech tell you this?

Hey graphic, how's it going? I'm actually speaking from experience. It's actually partially to blame. If a fuel injected rotary engine vehicle has up to parr compression, is in a proper state of tune ( which includes plugs that are not worn or fouled) it will start and restart in cold conditions; provided it is able to crank with sufficient speed ( Mazda seems to think 250rpms is good, I wish it was higher). Mazda has so far attacked this from one angle : the ignition angle, replacing leading plugs with hotter (heat range) spark plugs. We'll see how well that measure works over time.
I've recently heard it said that when flooded, if the battery is below a certain voltage the PCM goes into a mode that will not allow the throttle to achieve more than 25% opening; defeating Mazda's suggested method of de-flooding. If this is true, it may further explain the extra degree of difficulty that flooded 8 owners have been experiencing. I'm also a proponent of the theory relating the port configuration (exhaust) with some added trouble when already flooded.

ceramicseal...

Thanks for the info. While your explanation sounds plausible and I was aware of Mazda putting in "hot" plugs to address, I'll assume there isn't any affirmation from Mazda that these theories are correct.

In that assumption, you would be correct my friend.

ceramicseal....while I have never experienced any flooding, regardless of weather, temps or warm-up procedure (or lack thereof), I have had mine take a bit longer to crank before firing.

I'm wondering, as with piston engines that aren't tuned well (and in turn keep cranking without actually starting), if it is a problem with faulty plugs or wiring that doesn't deliver the necessary "juice" to the plugs? To me, at any rate, it seems those that have problems aren't getting enough "spark" to fire up the RENESIS.

I'm in the market for a new sports car. I basically limited the two cars I am considering to the Mazda RX-8 and the 350Z. I consider myself a particular guy, and I always buy cars that are known for reliability. From what I've been read on this thread on flooding, that even if the RX-8 has only flooded with a small percentage of users (>10%), this seems to me to be a potential needless inconvenience to owning this car to say the least. I want a car I know will start all the time, and I won’t have to be overly concerned with stalling or forgetting to let the engine warm up before shutting down. This is not the 1930s where this type of behavior was common in a car! I understand this is an inherent issue with the rotorary engine, but the problem seems more than just a small issue that can be ignored. I'm actually disappointed, yet relieved I found this site/thread. A buddy at work who loves Mazda’s and owns an RX-7 mentioned to me to check this site out. before making a purchase. He said he had some concerns with the new engine design. I had my financing in order, signed up for the Ford S-plan through my employee for under invoice pricing and was already to buy in the next week. So, unless I'm misreading all these posts, which I doubt I am, I will be buying the new 350Z instead. That is to bad because I liked both cars a lot, but the Mazda was my favorite. I’m not going to buy the car that was my favorite, since it appears not to be as reliable as a new car should be. I’m sure other posters will disagree with me, but how can you truly argue against all the people that have had to deal with this unfortunate experience? I buy Japanese cars that I take into the shop no more than five times a year (four of the times are for oil changes). In my experience since I work in the technology field, going with a new expensive technology (in this case a new car model) is never a good idea until they can work the kinks out. Too bad.

To each his own. I hope you enjoy it as much as we enjoy our
RX-8s.

Rgds, Mark

rosenmeyer....Good luck with your purchase...keep a careful eye on the suspension/tires on the 350Z.

Lovin' my 8.

Originally posted by rosenmeyer
A buddy at work who loves Mazda’s and owns an RX-7 mentioned to me to check this site out. before making a purchase. He said he had some concerns with the new engine design. .... So, unless I'm misreading all these posts, which I doubt I am, I will be buying the new 350Z instead.
Dude, take your buddy's advice one step further and check out the 350Z forums before you buy, as well!

Gotta love those posters who come in here with one post and say something like "...hey, I really like the RX8 but (pick an issue reporting a problem some people are having), so I'll be buying a (pick one...350Z/G35/BMW, etc).

If they made up their mind to buy something else, regardless of reason, why do they come here to post?

For what it's worth, last November when my RX-8 flooded, I remarked to the dealer about the battery seeming weak. It tested weak the first week I had the car (August). After much pleading and complaining, Mazda finally agreed to replace the battery. The battery they replaced it with is like a 525cca vs the 400cca that was in there originally. I've not observed any sluggish starts, even in cold weather. I have even intentionally tried to get it to flood and it hasn't.

The only thing I suspect still is that sometimes when the engine is cold I notice after starting that the RPMs oscillate between about 1200-2000 for about 30 seconds. I suspect that if you killed the engine while it was revving like this that it might get too much fuel in there and flood it.

Anybody else observed anything like this when the engine is cold and at idle?

I'd be interested to see a second poll: Have you flooded your engine more than once? Maybe it's just me, but it seems that it has only happened to most people once (which actually makes me feel a little better!).

Originally posted by 1 bad 7
I'd be interested to see a second poll: Have you flooded your engine more than once? Maybe it's just me, but it seems that it has only happened to most people once (which actually makes me feel a little better!). Great minds thing alike: Look here (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17210). This is one big reason why I still don't worry about flooding.

Interesting indeed...

when I was talking to the service guy he told me about that problem before it ever happened to me. I did notice a couple of times that it didn't start on the first crank but did on the second try. He said that the fuel floods the engine very quickly on the start up and if you don't let it run a few minutes and turn it off the fuel will flood the engine. Had alot of them come into the service department for that reason. Now they know to tell their customers about it. They're pretty green on the automatics.

To MyLadyDeb...

please define what a "crank" is...also please quantify how many is the "lots" that your dealer has seen come in for flooding.

I am not just screwing with you but really would like to seperate fact from fiction and rumor.

Rgds, Mark

You would think if the flooding is such an issue the dealers will be the ones complaining the most to Mazda. From unloading the cars from the truck to moving them around their lots most of their driving is very short distance. I can't imagine them putting up with flooded vehicles all over their lots or running the cars for 10 minutes before every time they move them.

I'm curious to hear of any of those who had flooding issues feel the issue was resolved once their dealer installed "hot plugs"?

Originally posted by graphicguy
I'm curious to hear of any of those who had flooding issues feel the issue was resolved once their dealer installed "hot plugs"?

I had the "hot plugs" installed about 6 weeks ago and I haven't flooded since but I've also been VERY careful about cold starts.

In addition, when I checked my oil this morning, it reeked of gasoline (it was changed after the flooding incident). I have to take it in again to get that checked out. My guess is that it is related to the flooding issue, but I'll wait to see what the dealer says.

This is getting old.

I've owned the car for 3 months now, never had a problem then today it wouldn't fire ...it was flooded had to call roadside assistance. I was lucky the car was going to be towed in and would sit for a weekend and no loaner cars available at my dealer. I was lucky the tow truck driver keep it cranking away...the battery went down so he put it on a box..after 40 minutes it fired...and rpms where at 900 at idle..I'm taking it monday so they can check the plugs..

Originally posted by Arthur
........In addition, when I checked my oil this morning, it reeked of gasoline (it was changed after the flooding incident). I have to take it in again to get that checked out.

I've never flooded mine, but this morning while checking the oil it reeked of gasoline too. I don't recall it smelling as strong before today. Maybe the warmer weather? The dipstick was coated with goop too - but a bit less then on colder days. /rx8cited

Originally posted by rx8cited
I've never flooded mine, but this morning while checking the oil it reeked of gasoline too. I don't recall it smelling as strong before today. Maybe the warmer weather? The dipstick was coated with goop too - but a bit less then on colder days. /rx8cited

I've got an appointment next Friday 2/20 to get the gas in the oil thing checked out. I'll let you know what I hear.

Add another to the list...I think.

I got in my 8 to go home today after work. Cranked it up, sat for a minute or so and put it in drive. Pulled out of my parking space and turned onto the road in front of my office and the engine cut off. Took 5 minutes to get it to start again and once it did, lots of smoke and it was running so rough that if it was a traditional engine I would have sworn that I had lost a cylinder or two. After about 45 seconds to a minute it began to idle more like usual and I drove off. It sputtered a little but I made it home without any other problems. Don't have a real good feeling about it now...going to call the dealership first thing in the morning.

Originally posted by rjenk
I got in my 8 to go home today after work. Cranked it up, sat for a minute or so and put it in drive. Pulled out of my parking space and turned onto the road in front of my office and the engine cut off. Took 5 minutes to get it to start again
Classic... what was the weather like?

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
Classic... what was the weather like?

It was about 35 degrees.

Got an appointment tomorrow to take it in.

I have 32 years experience with the Mazda rotaries. They all have had the flooding issue to some degree. I've seen all the fixes come and go. The most effective solution has been a simple fuel pump on-off switch. Shut the pump off first, the engine will die, then turn key off. The fuel pump switch is great for an added theft protection. Owners that live in seasonal changes would do well to tune the engine for the climate . At our shop in the inland northwest we would change spark plugs for winter seasons. We would install the "7" heat range in trailing and leading positions. Use a very thin oil. Use a battery that has a lot of cranking power. And the fuel pump switch just incase. We called this the cold weather packsge. With the fuel pump switch you can pull your car out to wash it and shut it off right away with no trouble restarting. That way you don't waste gas waiting for it to warm up. Or smell the exhaustemissions while warming up. I doubt that Mazda will attemt to do anything about this issue. One last thing about the fuel pump switch is there for whenever you need it. The car doesn't always flood. The other fixes I've seen usually are in place for every start up. Even if you forget and flood it you can stop cranking, shut the fuel pump off. Then start the engine on the fuel already in the engine. As it comes to life flip the switch on. Our women customers loved it. I have a dealership asking me for help and I'm trying to direct them to this method. Hope this helps.

I have a friend who owned an RX-7 for fourteen years and drove it 140,000 miles. Loved it. Said the only downside was it would flood--he counted eighteen times in fourteen years. He kept a battery charger handy and was always able to get it going eventually. I would not be so patient, but I have not had the car flood yet. (2000 miles.)

Originally posted by rjenk
It was about 35 degrees.

Got an appointment tomorrow to take it in.

Was it raining or foggy at all?

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
Was it raining or foggy at all?

It was raining earlier in the day but was cloudy when it died.

Originally posted by skip gorman
Even if you forget and flood it you can stop cranking, shut the fuel pump off. Then start the engine on the fuel already in the engine.

Unfortunately one of the RENESIS improvements seems to be that this technique seldom works. For most people its a tow to the dealership to have the fuel drained out, oil changed and plugs replaced.

Has anyone simply removed the fuel pump fuse under the hood and unflooded the engine? Worked everytime for me!

Originally posted by msrecant
Unfortunately one of the RENESIS improvements seems to be that this technique seldom works. For most people its a tow to the dealership to have the fuel drained out, oil changed and plugs replaced.

Apparently I misspoke. After researching the forum in detail, there are a number of successful flooding recoveries based on two things:

- pulling the fuel pump fuse
- jumping the battery to support it through the extended cranking

Also in my research it was obvious that the Mazda "push the gas pedal to the floor" was not sufficient, removing the fuel pump fuse was required.

I have 1700 miles in cold/snow weather, most of it 5-10 miles drives, although one trip of 250 miles each way; some of the weather was in the sustained 0-20F termperature range. Aside from occasionally needing to crank more than 1-2 seconds, the car has started very easily -- that is no flooding or even a hint of flooding. I just looked to see where the fuel pump fuse was; its easy to find, labeled in the owners manual, and on the fuse cover.

I also checked my oil, its only down 1/2 quart, and I haven't added any yet. I noticed the grommet was missing for the right engine cover side -- damn. I could see a flat area underneath, got a flashlight, and found the grommet -- lucky. I probably pushed the grommet through while trying to reseat the engine cover earlier.

Just got back from the dealership and I'm driving a minivan. The computer showed a missfire and they are going to replace the plugs with the hotter ones. Only problem is that there have been so many dealerships replacing plugs, they are on back order (according to the gentleman working on my 8). Hmm...must really be a problem huh?

I asked him how the plugs looked when he pulled them and he said they were definately fouled. I asked him if he thought the hotter plugs would help with my mileage problem and he said it might but was not really sure if it would or not.

So, I am stuck in a minivan waiting for new plugs and for a new driver's side kickplate (metal logo strip was poping up) to arrive.

I don't know why pulling the fuse would be an improvement over the Emergency Start Procedure set out on page 7-20 of the manual. Both procedures should starve the rotor chambers of fuel... I do think part of the problem is the battery - it may not be strong enough to handle all the cranking.

See this technical service bulletin (http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/01-001-04.html) on the gromit problem.

I just had a very frustrating conversation with a customer service rep from Mazda North America. My car is going in again tomorrow because the oil reeks of gasoline. I can only assume that this is related to the flooding issue (I've already had it in twice for flooding). So, I've been trying to get through to the customer service supervisor I've been dealing with at Mazda North America since last Friday. I've left numerous messages stating that I want to speak to someone before I take it to the dealer again. Of course, this person has not returned my phone calls.

Tonight, I tried calling the main number and spoke to one of the customer service operators. This guy tried to reach the person I've been working with, but when he came back on the phone he said "she is just finishing her shift and is on the way out the door and asked that I send your information to your dealer." Well, that just rubbed me the wrong way and I went off on the poor operator. I have had it with this. The dealer is not the problem, it's Mazda. Not only do I have deal with the mechanical problem, I have to deal with HORRIBLE customer service from the manufacturer.

I just looked up Virginia's lemon law and the statute states that you can invoke it after three failed repair attempts. Tomorrow will make three for me. It looks like invoking the lemon law might be the next step for me. Of course, I'm sure that's an ugly process too.

Sorry, I just had to vent. I've completely lost my patience with this.

Sorry to anyone seeing this twice--I also posted it on the satisfaction survey thread. . .

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
I don't know why pulling the fuse would be an improvement over the Emergency Start Procedure set out on page 7-20 of the manual. Both procedures should starve the rotor chambers of fuel... I do think part of the problem is the battery - it may not be strong enough to handle all the cranking.


I don't know why either.

Do a search on posts that contain "fuel pump fuse", you will get 43 or so hits. Two people specifically report that the Mazda "Starting A Flooded Engine" procedure did not work but then they were able to start the car by pulling the fuse. Another 6 report successful starting after pulling the fuse but it is unknown whether they first tried the Mazda procedure. But you have to think that at least some of them tried it.

However, I have tried searching and I have found no posts where someone started a flooded RX-8 using the Mazda procedure. Unfortunately I don't know for sure if I missed any posts. Another thought is that people who are successful with the Mazda procedure may not consider the event important enough to report on this forum.

Note, from reading these posts it is also obvious that the people who successfully started a flooded car generally did something to help the battery to provide the needed cranking-time.

Msrecant :

I got mine started using the Mazda procedure - but what a lot of smoke. Have had a couple of hard starts - used the Mazda procedure when it would not start on second try - gas to the floor and cranked for about 5 to 6 seconds - then off gas as I cranked.

Flooding is an issue which Mazda willing will be soon be addressed - I hope. John

RX8_GT:

Unrelated curiosity ... is your an AT or MT?

Once again I will share this opinion; this time with a twist. Most, if not all the flooding being experienced is related to battery state of charge (related to, not the only factor).
Here's the twist: I've heard it said by someone in the know, that
when cranking with less than a prescribed voltage the computer goes into a mode where it will not achieve more than 25% throttle opening. Hence according to my proven theory that slow cranking speeds combined with inherent design characteristics, when aggravated by poor user techniques can potentially cause flooding and perhaps the computer cannot be then triggered by depressing the pedal because it doesn't recognize it. Catch 22.

Originally posted by CERAMICSEAL
and perhaps the computer cannot be then triggered by depressing the pedal because it doesn't recognize it. Catch 22.

Hence pulling the fuel pump fuse gets around the Catch 22 by guaranteeing that no fuel will flow?

Msrecant - MT of course like my other Mazdas.

Had a RX7 back in Canada from 1986 to 1991 - flooded it once.

Have flooded the RX8 once - big time. Have had a couple of what I consider near floods - one today backing out of garage - stalled it - started on third attempt using Mazda technique. Minimal smoke after the car restarted.

Have never flooded my current RX7 - 1988 Turbo.

I'm still very happy with the RX8 - but believe Mazda has some work to do.

John

I put a scope on the injectors and I lost the pattern when cranking at wide open throttle. But I can see if the engine is flooded bad enough, if there isn't a strong battery, none of the methods will work. Even oulling the fuse. Also if it's flooded bad enough it washes the rotor chambers down and you loose compression. Then you have to pull the spark plugs , spin the engine over to get the fuel out, then squirt some oil in the rotor chamber to restore compression. Then install new spark plugs.

Skip Gorman:

The stock battery seems quite minimalist. ? Part of the problem.

John