Originally posted by RX8_GT
The stock battery seems quite minimalist. ? Part of the problem

Stock battery seems quite minimalist based on what factors? I'm quite impressed with mine so far, so I'm missing your point. What would you suggest replacing it with?

rx8cited

The Optima seems well recommended:

Optima Battery - Red or Yellow? (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19040)

No flooding in about 7400 miles. Nor do I expect to or want to flood the engine! I flooded my '79 RX7 just before putting it away for winter storage years ago, (yeah, short running time, no warm up) and it's not something I care to do again.

I'm keeping factory flood prevention procedures in mind; are most of the people with flooding problems?

Ok on the battery issue, one of the quickest way to flood a rotary is not having enough cranking speed. Automatics have always had the problem. In the past I've had automatic cars towed in that were flooded really bad and put 24 volts to the starter only and bang it started up. Now that was under shop conditions and not recommended for the public. It proved the point. You must always remember that the rotor only turns at one third the speed of the shaft. So at cranking speed the rotor is moving very slow.The other problem the rotary engine has that piston engines don't have is how the fuel charge is introduced to the combustion chamber. The primary injectors are on the opposite side of the engine from the spark plugs. The rotor has to sweep the incoming charge all the way over to the spark plugs. By then the charge has lost alot of its atomization. That is the charge has gone back to a more raw fuel state, which is harder to light off. And on top of that the first place it goes is into the trailing spark plug hole. As the apex seal crosses over the trailing hole there is a small built in leak from one chamber to the other. The slower the rotor moves the worst the problem And that spark plug is actually the second spark not the first. I never did understand why Mazda put such a cold spark plug into the trailing position since "86. The previous rotaries had the same heat range spark plugs leading and trailing.
I'm probably getting to deep into rotary engine dynamics. If you could actually see a rotor and rotor housing it becomes quite clear. I always had one around the shop to demonstrate to customers. Which is my final point, I think all this talk should be handled at the dealership level. I've alwaws thought to sell rotaries you should know rotaries. Unfortunately it's just another car sale and the same salesman is never there . Mazda dealerships have a captive audience and don't capitalize on it. Mazda should have sales training rotary car sales. Then the sales people could chage jobs and be rotary qualified at the next store.
Oh well!!

Originally posted by skip gorman
Ok on the battery issue, one of the quickest way to flood a rotary is not having enough cranking speed. Automatics have always had the problem. In the past I've had automatic cars towed in that were flooded really bad and put 24 volts to the starter only and bang it started up. Now that was under shop conditions and not recommended for the public. It proved the point. You must always remember that the rotor only turns at one third the speed of the shaft. So at cranking speed the rotor is moving very slow.The other problem the rotary engine has that piston engines don't have is how the fuel charge is introduced to the combustion chamber. The primary injectors are on the opposite side of the engine from the spark plugs. The rotor has to sweep the incoming charge all the way over to the spark plugs. By then the charge has lost alot of its atomization. That is the charge has gone back to a more raw fuel state, which is harder to light off. And on top of that the first place it goes is into the trailing spark plug hole. As the apex seal crosses over the trailing hole there is a small built in leak from one chamber to the other. The slower the rotor moves the worst the problem And that spark plug is actually the second spark not the first. I never did understand why Mazda put such a cold spark plug into the trailing position since "86. The previous rotaries had the same heat range spark plugs leading and trailing.
I'm probably getting to deep into rotary engine dynamics. If you could actually see a rotor and rotor housing it becomes quite clear. I always had one around the shop to demonstrate to customers. Which is my final point, I think all this talk should be handled at the dealership level. I've alwaws thought to sell rotaries you should know rotaries. Unfortunately it's just another car sale and the same salesman is never there . Mazda dealerships have a captive audience and don't capitalize on it. Mazda should have sales training rotary car sales. Then the sales people could chage jobs and be rotary qualified at the next store.
Oh well!!

Excellent post, nuf said.

So far my car has started fine in cold weather. I avoid having too many electrical things (lights, fan, seat heaters, window/mirror defrosters) at the same time when I am making short drives in cold weather. I don't know about the RX-8 charging system, but I have been told that some/many cars can't keep up with full electrical load at low speeds.

Is it possible the battery's capacity is diminished by too much draw from these appliances and not enough slow speed and short trip charging capacity ... making the engine more prone to flood?

Today i tried to start my car...didn't start for like 2 seconds i thought i had flooded it and finally it started after like 3 seconds...i was like NICE! but i don't understand why it would almost flood i never drive short distances and i don't go lite on my RPM's...i let it warm up before driving it and i rev it a little like 20 seconds before turning it off..?

Maybe the flooding problem is not to do with the gas... If the seals of the engine don´t close properly some oil can get into the chambers (of course the colder the engine is the worst the seals close so the enters more oil)and that would explain that much oil in the plugs and the smell of gas in the oil... That is only a theory, but if its true then those cars that have flooded may use more oil than others. It would be intresting to compare the oil that consume the cars that don´t have problems with the rest of them...

Sory for my English...

i purchased my 8 in nov. 03 and have had it flood once, which i guess caused my converter to get red hot. then the check engine light came on after i got it back from the dealership. they had to reprogram the engine control module, for whatever reason. the tech guy and i were talking and he seemed to think thats why it flooded, because the code that came in was for the o2 sensor not comunicating with the computer. then i find out about the service bulletins which most of them affect my car. im kinda disappointed with all the problems i have had with my car after paying so much money for it. i guess its to be expected with a new model car. any feedback appreciated.

Originally posted by rx8u-up
then i find out about the service bulletins which most of them affect my car. im kinda disappointed with all the problems i have had with my car after paying so much money for it. Just curious, cuz I've been following this story. Which service bulletins are you referring to which relate to your flooding/02 sensor problem? All the bulletins I know of are here (http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/) and I didn't see anything like that.

I was aware of the flooding issue well before I bought my RX-8, it hasn't been a problem to me so far, below is recent information from Mazda regarding flooding:

(1) Response to 1st email -- Mazda perspective on flooding, any fix, when, existing cars?

Mazda is aware some people have had concerns with their RX-8 flooding
and our Technical Department is currently investigating this.
Unfortunately, at this time I do not have any information advising if
there will be a modification to prevent this. You may want to check
back in the next couple of months as we may have updates at that time.

As you know, when customer's receive their RX-8 they are provided with
a Driver's Guide that has information on preventing flooding in the
vehicle. In most cases we have found that the flooding has been due to
customers not following this procedure. My best recommendation would
be to follow the procedure in the Driver's Guide and you shouldn't have
a concern with this.

(2) Response to 2nd email -- What about valet, etc, drivers that don't know about flooding?

Please understand the RX-8 is a truly unique sportscar. Not only is the
styling and design different, but it is also powered by a completely
different type of engine. Undoubtedly, you must have been attracted by
the uniqueness of the rotary engine as one of the features of the
RX-8. This engine does require unique operating instructions.
Unfortunately, I cannot advise you how to handle other people who may
be driving your vehicle, the best thing I could say is do your best to
make them informed about how to operate your vehicle. Remember your
vehicle is under the factory warranty and you do have Roadside
assistance with that warranty. Should this ever become an issue for
you, Mazda will certainly handle it within the terms of your
warranty.

Rest assured I have documented your comments for our corporate record.
These records are continuously being reviewed by our Product Planning
Department in an effort to provide only the highest quality products to
our customers.

Nobody here has mentioned the best thing about flooding rotaries:

In a few years, there will be people who flood their RX-8s after the warranty runs out and are then sure that the engine is dead, dead, dead.

I look forward to offering them about a thousand dollars to take it off their hands, pouring a little ATF, and driving the car away.

The geometry of the rotary will always leave it vulnerable to this problem, and those of us who love them can learn to adapt to such a little foible. I'm never without an extra set of plugs. Just in case.

Originally posted by TimH
I'm never without an extra set of plugs. Just in case.
And what will you do with those plugs? This is the question I'd like answered. It looks to me like one might be able to replace the trailing plugs without much fuss, but the leading plugs are way down low... right? If it were as easy as swapping out the plugs, I'd be carrying them around too.

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
And what will you do with those plugs? This is the question I'd like answered. It looks to me like one might be able to replace the trailing plugs without much fuss, but the leading plugs are way down low... right? If it were as easy as swapping out the plugs, I'd be carrying them around too.

I started carrying them in my GSL-SE, which had easy access to all plugs. I still carry them in the FD because I have long skinny arms. I'll carry them in an 8, maybe only for their talismanic value...

Originally posted by TimH
maybe only for their talismanic value...

I like it. I may stop at Pep Boys and pick up a set.

this is to 8_wannabe. here is the reprogram that they did, i think because my vin matches the range. not sure if it has anything to do with the emissions or not, but thats what the tech. said it was. check out mil dtc p0128 and/ or p0456

Originally posted by TimH
Nobody here has mentioned the best thing about flooding rotaries:

In a few years, there will be people who flood their RX-8s after the warranty runs out and are then sure that the engine is dead, dead, dead.

I look forward to offering them about a thousand dollars to take it off their hands, pouring a little ATF, and driving the car away.

The geometry of the rotary will always leave it vulnerable to this problem, and those of us who love them can learn to adapt to such a little foible. I'm never without an extra set of plugs. Just in case.

I've bought so many RX-7's this way it is almost silly. The owners claim that the engine is dead and they sell them for next to nothing. Pull them down the street and away they go.

I've had my Rx-8 for about 4 months and I just flooded it today, UGH. However, thanks to the knowledgable folks on this board I got it started back up in 10 minutes! No flying into a blind rage, crying, going into the fetal position...up and running no problem!

From now on I will also start using some of the nifty tricks listed here so that I don't ever have to deal with this issue again.

GOD BLESS THE RX-8 BOARD!

- Voodookhan

Originally posted by Voodookhan
I've had my Rx-8 for about 4 months and I just flooded it today, UGH. ...

Glad you got it unflooded on your very own :) . What did you do that caused it to get flooded and what technique did you use to successfully unflood it?

Thanks,
rx8cited

wow after reading 18 pages, i'm really worried and mabye thinking about getting a Type S RSX instead.

I can't imagine being far from home...hundreds of miles and this happening.

You stall by mistake in the middle of nowhere....yikes.

Man this sucks. The 8 is my dreamcar and just waiting for the final word from my salesman tommorow.

Add me to the flooded victims list.....warned hubby about shutting off car with cold engine.....he did not believe me. Lastnight he pulled it out then back in and shut it down...this morning it would not start. Tried the emergency start procedure.....no luck. Towing to dealer today thru Roadside assistance! Argh...aggravated that he did not believe me when I am the one driving the car everyday and have read all about it and he's read nothing!!!! Had the car 4 months now!

Originally posted by cruzdreamer
Towing to dealer today thru Roadside assistance!

Sorry to hear about your problem.

You may want to try the following before having it towed. Several people have reported success doing this, even when the Mazda procedure fails.

1. Connect some form of electrical support to the battery (charger, jump from another car, etc).

2. Pull the fuel pump breaker.

3. Crank the car until the in-chamber fuel catches or is blown out.

4. Put the breaker back in and crank the car.

Just don't crank the car continuously for more than 8-10 seconds to avoid overheating the starter.

My car has flooded twice. Both times I had to take it to the dealer to get it started. I just found out that they pull the fuse on the fuel pump to get it started, then the put the fuse back in. I haven't tried it.

I've also found that if I run to the store (less than 1 mile) shut it off and then restart it I don't have any problems, but if I don't let it warm up and then let it sit overnight then it will flood.

I was talking to a dealer today about this problem and he said that they have fixed the problem on models shipping for the past 3 months. He said they are now putting hotter firing plugs in the car to lessen the possibility of flooding.

Sounds like dealer speak but I thought I would pass it along for people who might be worried about such things.

Push start the car and pop the clutch. Much easier than having it towed away and gone for a couple of days. As a last resort pull it down the street behind another car in gear. It will start EVERY time with this method! If you have an auto obviously it won't work.

I was working on Mr. Wigggles RX-8 a few weeks ago. I started the car but immediately stalled it. When I restarted it I pushed the gas pedal all the way to the floor so no fuel would enter the engine until I let up. The car still started with my foot all the way down! When it cranked up I immediately pulled my foot off the gas. The engine wasn't getting any fuel but there was still enough fuel in the engine that it would start. Had I not have done this the car probably would have flooded. It obviously had enough fuel to start, and adding anymore wasn't going to help any. I've said it once and I'll say it over and over and over again until everyone listens. The rotary is a unique engine that deserves some unique treatment. I don't give a damn about what it "should" be like or what the service manual says.

The different spark plugs may help a little but it is side stepping the real issue and is more of a bandaid rather than a cure.

First time flooding in four months I've had my Titanium Grey 8. Like many others, I moved the car ten feet into the garage and shut it off. Even at the time, I thought, " hmmm, I don't think I'm supposed to do this, isn't this what causes the flooding issure? ... oh well, it hasn't happened to me yet." and then I went inside. The next day it snowed here in Massachusetts, so I carpooled with my wife (I will invest in the snow tires this summer, when I have a bit more cash). So then Tuesday morning, when I tried to start it, it was clearly flooded. No success with the manual's flooded engine recommendation or sustained cranking while hooked to a charger.

Thank you all for this site. I was pretty disheartened by all the posts stating that they had to have their 8 hauled to a dealer to fix it. A couple of posters mentioned pulling the plugs, cleaning them, disabling fuel pump, cranking out the fuel, and reinstalling. Thought I could handle that, but damn ... where are those spark plugs? Searched through all the site and found one mention that you remove the drivers side front tire, then move a flap to get to the plugs. What a livesaver, I never would have found that. (I wish I could remember who posted it).

I could only get to two of the plugs easily, those for the rearward rotor. So I pulled those, cleaned off all the muck, pulled the fuel pump fuse and cranked for a while. I put everything back, hoping that power from one rotor could get it going enough to clean out the other side. It cranked for about ten seconds, then finally kicked over. I revved it high, trying to take it just below the red, but it couldn't maintain high rpm. It would "bounce" from 6K up and back again for 30 seconds or so. I assume this was the effect of only one rotor firing, untill the other side burned clean. Then it smoothed out, and after a couple minutes, the engine warning lights all went out, and it the engine purred just like it always has.

That was last night. No problems todays. No special tools or detailed automotive experience necessary, just a willingness to try and a standard plug socket found in most basic socket wrench sets. I know that it probably would have been covered under warranty to have it towed and fixed by the dealer, but the whole thing took maybe an hour (including cleaning the plugs while I watched the nightly news). A lot less hassle and time than would have been spent getting it towed and picking it up.

Did he get mad at yiou for buying such an unreliable car?

That's what my lady friend told me when I warned her about mine.. ;(

Originally posted by cruzdreamer
Add me to the flooded victims list.....warned hubby about shutting off car with cold engine.....he did not believe me. Lastnight he pulled it out then back in and shut it down...this morning it would not start. Tried the emergency start procedure.....no luck. Towing to dealer today thru Roadside assistance! Argh...aggravated that he did not believe me when I am the one driving the car everyday and have read all about it and he's read nothing!!!! Had the car 4 months now!

Good Job Cyderman! Sounds like you might even have enjoyed the job ... once you knew it was going to work.
Tom

Originally posted by Cyderman
No special tools or detailed automotive experience necessary, just a willingness to try and a standard plug socket found in most basic socket wrench sets.
I'd sure like a do-it-yourself with photos on how to do this. Some day my car's not going to be covered under the Mazda warranty, and I'd like to have a "Plan B" to having the car towed. I think I'd also buy an extra set of plugs, maybe cutting down that 1 hour fix time...

Well, I am having 2nd thoughts about the whole RX-8 purchase, after being so excited about the it. The test drive was fantastic!

But one has to worry running down to the store for milk in the morning, for fear the engine will flood. If it does flood, it's not like the old days, where you just wait a few minutes, then hold the pedal to the floor and crank. What the hell is this...towing...removing fuses...changing plugs...running it longer! Please! I guess you leave the car in the driveway and walk to the store! I just wonder how much of a hassel is this...getting mixed messages.

Originally posted by yves
Well, I am having 2nd thoughts about the whole RX-8 purchase, after being so excited about the it. The test drive was fantastic!

But one has to worry running down to the store for milk in the morning, for fear the engine will flood. If it does flood, it's not like the old days, where you just wait a few minutes, then hold the pedal to the floor and crank. What the hell is this...towing...removing fuses...changing plugs...running it longer! Please! I guess you leave the car in the driveway and walk to the store! I just wonder how much of a hassel is this...getting mixed messages.

unless your store is 500 feet away, by the time you get in, drive to the store and park the engine should be properly warmed up and flooding shouldn't be an issue. i'd say 95% of those posting with flooding issues have said it was due to pulling the car out (or in) and shutting it off immediately (say 1 minute of running time).

pretty much every rx-7 has been like this - it's an amazing car, but you do have to take some differences in the motor into account. if you're smart and follow what the manual says, you should be fine. i had an 88 rx7 for 4 years, and flooded it twice - both times were because, against my better knowledge, i shut the car off after just moving it from the garage, etc.

a bit of a hassle? yes. but ultimately it's worth it because you're not likely to find another car, for the price, that will perform like an rx-7 or rx-8. and if you do have a problem, no matter how pissed you may be at the time, once you get it back on the road you won't give a shit :)

think of it like this - you're dating the most beautiful person you've ever met, and the shaggin' is the best you've ever had. BUT... the person is a little bit annoying at times. You may hate them for an hour or so, or maybe a day, but once you get a good ride again all is forgotten :D

stupid analogy, but you hopefully get the point.

yves,

Don't worry...buy the car. All of this sounds complicated, but can be distilled down to a simple rule-of-thumb: don't start the car unless you're going to drive it.

It's a fun car to drive -- unlike most anything available under $40K new. A steal, if you ask me.

A while back, a grocery chain here in the Southeastern US ran a comercial which featured a young man who had recently gotten his drivers license. He was very eager to 'help' his parents by running to the store at the slightest suggestion of needing anything. This car brings back that feeling.

Today I took my 8 in for recall service (the airbag wiring and the transmission-cover-plate-which-might-fall-off problems) and was given a Protege5 as a loaner. The Protege5 is considered a pretty good drive in some circles but after 2 minutes I missed my 8.

Buy what fits your needs and makes you happy. Take care of it and it will (usually) take care of you. The Mazda rotary engine has been the focus of more R&D time than almost any other engine on the planet. It can't be a lemon...if there are flaws in the 8, Mazda will put them right. Too many jobs in Hiroshima depend on the success of this car and the US is a fertile market that can't be lost.

thered1996... i agree, but not too sure about "The Mazda rotary engine has been the focus of more R&D time than almost any other engine on the planet."

given how long piston engines have been around, and how mainstream they are compared to the rotary, i just don't see how that could be true. not too many NASCAR, IRL, F1 teams out there running with a rotary :) even if is the powerplant for the only japanese-made car to win the 24 hours of lemans!

anyway, just my thoughts. :cool:

Originally posted by thered1996
The Mazda rotary engine has been the focus of more R&D time than almost any other engine on the planet.

The piston engine has been around far longer than the rotary. Every car manufacturer has improved upon its design and there are currently more styles of piston engines in cars today than there have ever been different styles of rotaries even experimented on. The rotary has basically only had 3 different incarnations in regards to the way they work. The first setups were periperal intake and exhaust. The next leap was peripheral port exhaust and side port intake. The 3rd incarnation is the Renesis with its side intake and exhaust ports. The other advancements in rotary design over the decades have been in port size, displacement, seals, intake, and exhaust design. That all may sound like alot of advancement but just consider that Chevy topped this amount of experimentation in different V8 engines alone in the past 10 years. Imagine what the rotary could be like today with all of the years of development and attention by every manufacturer. It would be a wonderful thing.

Not trying to start a war or anything. Just my take on that comment, that's all.

OK, I admit I got caried away. Maybe "pure R&D time"? The recent thread where the idle spark firing order being "reversed", comes to mind...the engineers at Mazda apear to re-think things on a periodic basis.

Originally posted by 1 bad 7
.......think of it like this - you're dating the most beautiful person you've ever met, and the shaggin' is the best you've ever had. BUT... the person is a little bit annoying at times. You may hate them for an hour or so, or maybe a day, but once you get a good ride again all is forgotten :D

stupid analogy, but you hopefully get the point.

Actually, I like your analogy very much :D ....... if she's more reliable in other ways, then her flooding potential can be overlooked quite easily. Time will tell.... 5k and never flooded (knock knock).

rx8cited

Originally posted by rx8cited
Glad you got it unflooded on your very own :) . What did you do that caused it to get flooded and what technique did you use to successfully unflood it?

Thanks,
rx8cited

First, I tried the emergency procedure they have in the manual (it's been posted in this thread). That didn't work, so I did this:

1. Pulled the fuel pump fuse.

2. Run starter for 30 seconds w/ gas pedal pressed. If you have a lot of flooding your car may dump a ton of white smoke (like mine did), you'll see it and smell it. When the white smoke/smell is starting to lessen you can kinda hear the car want to turn over more and more.

3. Put fuse back in and when the motor catches give it extra gas.

(If the motor doesn't catch go back to step 1.)

4. Drive the car around for at least a half hour (just to be paranoid).

5. Before you turn the car off rev it to 3000 RPMs and then turn it off.

Voila! Haven't had a problem since. The good thing about this is that you can do it by yourself and it doesn't take very long.

It might be worth printing this out and keeping it in your car:

Service Bulletin 03/11/04 (http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/01-011-04.htm)

I just read through the new TSB (01-011/04). Some initial comments:

1. Mazda now officially recognizes that short distance trips can result in a crank/no-start condition (ie flooding). Previous documentation (and email responses) only made an obscure reference to reducing engine life.

2. Mazda officially indicates that this is a warranty repair.

3. Mazda strongly implies that this situation is the result of having the RENESIS meet the US Tier 2 Emissions classification.

4. Mazda indicates that the customer (you and me) should only use the de-choke procedure listed on page 11 (pedal to the floor). There are several references throughout the procedure for the service technician to do arcane things to avoid damaging engine/exhaust components.

5. I could find no mention of this issue being more likely with the AT version of the RX-8.

6. I could find no mention of hotter plugs being part of the remedy.

7. The customer de-choke procedure is a prerequisite before towing to the dealership.

8. It is unclear if the specified PCM update reduces the possibility of flooding in the future or is simply needed for the following diagnostic steps.

In general, it sounds like this issue is here to stay and can happen to any vehicle at any time after shutdown without proper warm-up. I am not sure but they may be trying to say that this is a US emissions issue and not really a rotary problem (personal conjecture). I don't think any of this is a surprise. Perhaps a little disappointing. I personally would have preferred a fix.

I'm just curious why it is such a problem with the Renesis vs my 3rd gen. I've flooded my FD twice, but once was because a spark plug wire was loose and popped off and the other was when I had several wiring "issues."

I can't think of what the setup is right now, but there is supposedly some "flooding prevention" system on the 3rd gen RX-7 which seems to work pretty well.

For those rotary wizzes out there, is it the change in porting that makes the Renesis more prone to flooding?

Also, I'm curious of the people who have flooded their 8, how many miles they've had on the engine. If it only happens on relatively low-milage cars (ie <5000 miles), could it be a break-in issue with the seals? I've recently had my engine rebuilt and was told that flooding is more prone on "fresh" engines until the seals are set. Got me wondering about the 8.... Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the inner workings to know if that's even a possibility.

Just curious.... <shrug>

Originally posted by msrecant
3. Mazda strongly implies that this situation is the result of having the RENESIS meet the US Tier 2 Emissions classification.

Originally posted by 1 bad 7
For those rotary wizzes out there, is it the change in porting that makes the Renesis more prone to flooding?

part of the Tier 2 emissions requirments is that the car maintains its current level of emissions for something like 10 years. the biggest part in maintaining that is catalyst life, which is hard with a rotary as the EGT's leaving the engine are much hotter than from your usual piston engine (the gasses run by a whole lot less metal on the way out, so the heat is not conducted away). part of the way to reduce this impact on the catalyst (which sits really close to the engine for "quick light off"... which is stupid) is to richen the A/F mixture a lot to keep EGT's lower, and to let the catalyst clean up all the excess fuel.

this is the reason for the lower-than-expected fuel milage, this is the reason for the lower power, this is the reason for the higher risk of flooding. so basically, we fix this and everything ought to be a wee bit better.

After 20 pages we have a 79/21% flood ratio?

Can we have a poll on past rotary owners ref the flood issue?

Msrecant's most recent post is very thoughtful and makes several interesting observations. IMO, the new TSB deserves its own thread, but I'm not going to start another flooding thread, lest I get black-balled. ;)

I was disappointed how complicated the repair turned out to be. Without the computer equipment to run the diagnostics, it appears the only way to be sure that the car is back to 100% after a "cranks-no start" incident is to have a dealer inspect the car. I am specifically referring here to the references in the TSB to "Check current PCM calibration" and "If MEAS are not within specification, repair has not been completed" and "If measured value is not within MIN and MAX range replace catalytic converer. Replace catalytic converter?!?!

Anyone have any ideas on a "cranks-no start" kit that could be used at the site of a "cranks-no start" incident? The procedures are still a bit fuzzy and the best thing to do at this stage still seems to be to use the de-choke procedure followed by a check up if the car starts or a tow if it doesn't. Like msrecant, I was hoping for something more pro-active.

This is my first experience with a rotary engine. The "8" is my wife's car. When she came home the first time and told me the service tech told her the car was flooded, I told her he was crazy. I have worked on cars all my life, piston engines, and never experienced these issues.

I then read the service manual for the "8" and learned that this is an inherent problem with rotary engines. My wife has had the car towed to the dealership on two (2) occassions and has experienced starting problems on a total of five (5) instances.

I don't feel this vehicle is a high performance, finely tuned vehicle that should require substantial knowledge to be able to start and drive. We're not talking a Formula 1 race car here!! This should be a vehicle that anyone's wife (or husband) should be able to get in and drive without having these types of problems. Someone else posted, if you wanted to wash the vehicle, then you should get someone else to help you "push it onto the driveway", and then drive it after completing the wash.

Thus far, I feel the "8's" reliability is EXTREMELY poor. We had the oil pan issue resolved and now the oil light has started to come on again. We started the vehicle this morning and the check engine light came on.

This vehicle is beautiful from the outside and drives very nice, (when it runs), however, I would not recommend this vehicle to someone else to purchase for their daughter or wife if they require something that needs to be reliable. The $30+K price tag does not match the reliability.....

buddy, relax. read and become informed before you write the doomsday opinions of yours in stone, m'kay??

Exactly what wakeech said. You state this is your first time with a rotary, right? These engines are much different than a traditional piston/pushrod engine. Do yourself a favor, and bump around the forum for a while, about the biggest complaint you're going to find is fuel economy complaints. But this is a sports car, and if you're really that concerned with fuel economy, get a Prius,(sp?).

Originally posted by wakeech
This is the reason for the lower-than-expected fuel mileage, this is the reason for the lower power, this is the reason for the higher risk of flooding. so basically, we fix this and everything ought to be a wee bit better.

I tend to agree with you that all three issues are tied together. Unfortunately, if they are, that does not bode well for any of us.

In briefly researching Tier 2 it looks like it was proposed in the 1998/1999 time frame for implementation in 2004. Hence Mazda was well aware of these requirements for the final design and testing of the RX-8 RENESIS engine. While it is conjecture on my part I could believe that the following has happened:

1. Mazda realized, reasonably early on, that they would not have an engineering solution available by the June 2003 US product launch date. This is supported by the recent TSB which both acknowledges the problem and the lack of a solution, even after almost a year (and I would say more like 2 or 3 years) to work it out.

2. Mazda made the decision to load the Tier 2 problem onto the customer so at least the cars could be sold, even if they were non-optimal (lower HP, lower MPG and greater flooding risk). The verbiage in the officially printed "Quick Start" guide indicates that Mazda was aware of this problem when the cars were produced and that the de-tune was not really a last minute decision implemented at the port in June 2003.

3. Mazda publicly down played all these potential problems hoping they would not be noticed by the customer base. JSpec cars are used for "pre-production" evaluation by the auto magazines. Cars start flowing into the US, on schedule, that appear to be what we are expecting.

4. This low-key approach is over-played when cars are actually shipped to the US with 247 HP stickers and the engines turn out substantially less HP. The buy backs and free maintenance are used to address their legal liability.

5. The RX-8 under-performance is noticed by customers and dealers alike. Again they have to back-pedal. The crank/no-start TSB's verbiage reassures dealers and customers that this problem is covered by warranty, even though it is caused by Tier 2 compliance (a very odd admission).

6. The RX-8's reputation takes a big hit. Mazda is powerless to really do anything about it because there really is no currently available technical solution, something they knew going into the situation. But it is still better than selling no RX-8s in the 2003-2005 time frame.


I know this sounds like an Oliver Stone conspiracy theory. As stated earlier, all the above is conjecture based on the odd set of facts that are facing us. I certainly have no proof for any of it. Actually I am hopeful that I will be proven wrong by the 2005 RX-8 being release with all three problems fixed. Who knows?

As one who has "worked" on piston engines for years, you are probably familiar with the idea that performance cars are somewhat more tempermental than ordinary vehicles. If you don't think the 8 is a performance vehicle compare the numbers is exhibits to other vehicles and see what you find. In addition, most daughters and wives have a strictly pragmatic view on cars. As far as they are concerned as long as it starts easy, warms up quickly, and gets good gas mileage they are happy. If you learn to accomodate the 8's inherent tendencies, you will find yourselves quite satisfied. Besides, my girlfriend gets a thrill out of my taking turns without using the brakes and she loves the attention it garners, wherever we go.

Charles

I didn't write my report of dissatisfaction for the approval of the members or to get other's opinions. I was simply stating the experience that I have had with the vehicle.

I spoke with the service department today after getting the vehicle serviced. The reply I received was that Mazda Corporation knows about the inherent problems, not tendancies, with the car and they are trying to fix them. A new program was downloaded to the ECM to hopefully assist with the flooding problem. According to the service rep I spoke with, Mazda is "playing with different solutions to fix the problem".

I have always truely liked performance vehicles and have owned several both foreign and domestic, I just feel this vehicle may have been released before some of the bugs were worked out.

In reference to the "thrills" aspect for my girlfriend, my motorcycle is much more of an inspiring ride.

I just gotta put my two cents in. I had the bad boy parked in a heated garage and was about to go for a spin after about a month of not running. Away at work, ya know.
Followed all recommend stuff but die she did. Towed the next day.
Not a happy camper.
Emailed Mazda and got a rather rude response to my way of thinking.
Still like the runner but I have to consider dumping it if they don't
up with a solution pretty quick.
The Mazda rep told me to look into the state lemon laws. No shit.
Pardon my french.

Originally posted by nicrsx
I just gotta put my two cents in. I had the bad boy parked in a heated garage and was about to go for a spin after about a month of not running. Away at work, ya know.
Followed all recommend stuff but die she did. Towed the next day.
Not a happy camper.
Emailed Mazda and got a rather rude response to my way of thinking.
Still like the runner but I have to consider dumping it if they don't
up with a solution pretty quick.
The Mazda rep told me to look into the state lemon laws. No shit.
Pardon my french.

A month? You sure the battery simply wasn't dead? Leave any car not running for a month and it shouldn't start. Your situation wasn't a flooding issue.

Originally posted by skagen
A month? You sure the battery simply wasn't dead? Leave any car not running for a month and it shouldn't start. Your situation wasn't a flooding issue.

very true. nicrsx, stop being such an alarmist for god's sakes.

msrecant,

the technical solution that we're waiting for is one which will allow 'quick cat lightoff' (which is an emissions requirement to keep emissions low over the first couple of minutes after startup, which is specially regulated) but keep the cat cool enough that it can run for a solid 10 years behind a wankel engine.
this would be as simple as moving the catalyst a few inches further down the line, maybe even fitting some radiating vanes along the exhaust to keep heat down once everything gets running... i dunno, it's rediculous really. there are simple solutions, but i suppose for some reason they're simply not allowed to utilize them.

tgarland, I'm with you completely.

When my wife and I bought our 8 we bought it because we loved the looks and we loved the ride. Silly me, I'm the guy in the house. Of course I should have known that in 2004 Mazda would sell cars that are prone to flooding. Shoulda known better. And, those MPG figures in big block fonts on the window bears no relevance to the same big block font numbers in windows of other cars, and should not be used for comparison purposes. How could I ever have thought otherwise?

I couldn't care less about the HP complaints. The car accelerates for us just the way it did on test drive. But NA Mazda and Anaheim Mazda failed to disclose some serious shortcomings about things I would reasonably expect not to be problems before I bought the car. The 8 is marketed to the general public. I never saw any notices that warned me that only serious rotoheads should go this way. Caveat emptor is not something that should bubble to the surface when buying a $30k NEW car in 2004 - not if the seller wants to maintain its reputation for selling fine cars.

I commend Mazda for their attempts to correct the problems, but why the heck don't they do the recall and flash everybody? Let me answer my own question - they're not really there yet. The L flash is a bandaid. Mazda is sweating this one, hoping they can come up with an economical fix before the class action and product liability suits start.

BTW, that last TSB on cars that won't start is a real plateful. Looks like evidence to me.

Gee, and all that writing in that little owners book that tells you the car may stall without proper warm up really does not matter? You know, I bought the first one off the truck, and have NEVER stalled it.....problem is not your driving style is it?

>>problem is not your driving style is it?<<

Nope. We have never flooded it. That doesn't mean that a year from now it won't pick the worst possible time to flood. This is an engine that is prone to flooding - one little mindslip and you're hosed. tgarland's point is that the RX-8 delivery was premature and I agree. It's going to cost Mazda a lot more to fix the problems with all these cars on the road than it would to fix it right in the first place.

Most RX-8 owners don't read this forum. I would guess that 90% of the owners aren't even aware that flooding is an issue. Is Mazda going to wait until the first car gets stalled out in a bad place and gets creamed before they do something? Oh yeah, Mazda is 30% owned by Ford and they have a long tradition of burying product liability issues.

I would agree with you about the driving style issue, however, this has nothing to do with driving the vehicle. If my wife backs the vehicle into the driveway to wash the car, then attempts to start the vehicle after the wash is complete, the CAR WILL FLOOD...

In comparison to the other two vehicles I own or the several others I have owned in my life or even the hundreds of models out there in the market, this vehicle must be handled with white gloves do to it's problematic tendancies.

If one were to poll car owners across the country and ask them if they allow their vehicle, whatever model it is, to get to running temp every time they operate the vehicle before they turn it off I think that number would be exceptionally low.

My wife is a professional who has a good education and is very capable of making a vehicle purchase on her own without the assistance of a man. She is a far cry from the comment made by another who insisted that the wife or daughter will be happy if the vehicle starts, runs, and gets them from point A to point B. (paraphrased, not exact quote).

I feel the dealership, including the sales staff and service reps. do not convey the problems with the 8 to prospective buyers. They seem to be more concerned with making the sale then making the buyer aware of the problematic tendencies. I agree with the other posting that stated a Caveat should not apply to prospective buyers of a 2004 $30k+ car.

I read several postings on this site prior to posting my own. I realized that most of the people posting comments or responces concerning the 8 have owned other RX models and appear to love the vehicle. It also appears that many people have ACCEPTED the problematic tendencies of the vehicle and are okay with them. Well I'm not..... I guess it's an old thought, you know, if you buy something you should get what you pay for. But oh well.

Originally posted by wakeech
i dunno, it's rediculous really. there are simple solutions, but i suppose for some reason they're simply not allowed to utilize them.

I agree, it is a puzzle why some form of solution is not forthcoming. Hopefully it is just because they don't want to mess with 2004 sales and that the 2005s will have the fix.

We will see next fall.

Originally posted by tgarland855
I would agree with you about the driving style issue, however, this has nothing to do with driving the vehicle. If my wife backs the vehicle into the driveway to wash the car, then attempts to start the vehicle after the wash is complete, the CAR WILL FLOOD...


This is not true. The car *may* flood, it's not guaranteed.

I spent a week stalling out and shutting my car down cold and did not experience any flooding issues at all.

I'm not saying there's not the possibility that it will flood, of course there is. However, it's not a certainty and false statements such as you made above are unneccessary.

The owners manual has a short-trip procedure in it which should be followed to avoid the potential of flooding. Anyone who drives the car should read and follow their owners' manual.

My point is, this is the known nature of the car..I already knew about this from my research on the rx-7, but my sales guy went over it with me when I bought it, IN THE SUMMER. If you were not told by your sales people, you are right to be upset..but at them, not at MAZDA. Of course, the MPG issue is a real concern, but it looks like the new flash is starting to fix the problem.

And you are right about ford, I still remeber the pinto mess..

Originally posted by skagen
A month? You sure the battery simply wasn't dead? Leave any car not running for a month and it shouldn't start. Your situation wasn't a flooding issue.

Your joking right?

All RX8 owners should be hammering Mazda if they want
this taken care of.
I have worked in service a long time. Squeaky wheels get
greased. Pissed on customers who don't complain get
the shaft.
If you like an unreliable car and want to throw $30k @ it
then it certainly is cool with me.
I know it is cool with Mazda.
Let me sell you a bridge.
Cute car but for a couple of bucks more...
Well enough of that.
Alarmist that I am.

Originally posted by nicrsx
Your joking right?

All RX8 owners should be hammering Mazda if they want
this taken care of.
I have worked in service a long time. Squeaky wheels get
greased. Pissed on customers who don't complain get
the shaft.
If you like an unreliable car and want to throw $30k @ it
then it certainly is cool with me.
I know it is cool with Mazda.
Let me sell you a bridge.
Cute car but for a couple of bucks more...
Well enough of that.
Alarmist that I am.

I say the flooding isn't a serious issue? Read it closely, not many complex sentences to flex your brain there. I said what happened in your situation might not have been a flooding issue since you left it there for a month. More than likely its your battery. And yes, the flooding is an issue as I've already written a formal complaint to Mazda.

Originally posted by skagen
I say the flooding isn't a serious issue? Read it closely, not many complex sentences to flex your brain there. I said what happened in your situation might not have been a flooding issue since you left it there for a month. More than likely its your battery. And yes, the flooding is an issue as I've already written a formal complaint to Mazda.

Your right about not many complex sentences.
But where is your brain?
This was a thread about flooding not batteries or not starting
because you can't tell the diff.
Talking down because you can't get it up er oops
thats what she said.

:o

I know the thread is about the flooding issue, and I will get to that in a moment. But I would like to comment on the dead battery issue first.

While I cannot agree or disagree with the comment that a dead battery after a month of non-use would be normal, I can attest to the fact that I have had my RX-8 battery die - twice now - after about 15 days of non-use....and that is definitely NOT normal in my experience! I have gone out of town on vacations dozens of times and left my other vehicle (a Jeep) in the garage. Come back and one turn of the key, it is running. And last fall, when I had just gotten the RX8, the Jeep sat for probably 4 or 5 weeks at one point without being touched.....and started right up.

As for the flooding - flooded mine about 3 1/2 weeks ago, simply by stalling it while backing out of the garage. I was *PISSED* when the dealer told me they would fix it one time for free, but after that it was my problem.

They say it is documented in the owner's manual...but excuse me, I did not get the manual until I had already bought the car! (Guess that's why it's called an Owner's Manual, huh?) :)

So where is the "prospective buyer's" manual? I waited three months from the time I ordered the car, sight unseen, last May, till the time I received it in August. During that time I got about a dozen things in the mail from Mazda...books, magazines, a thermos even!.....none of them explaining the unusual care and feeding required of the product. Had I known then, I probably would not buy the car, and I feel that is (criminal!) failure to disclose on Mazda's part.

Now, here's something I tried to search for in this forum but did not find. (Though admittedly, I did not read every single post on this topic yet.)

The car is actually at the dealer's as I am typing. After they fixed the flood problem last time, they apparently orderd "glow plugs" which they are installing free of charge.

(I'm also having my recal work done at the same time.)

Has anyone else heard of this fix?

Glow plugs are the diesel engine's equivalent of spark plugs. They better nto be installing those! They are probably just installing hooter plugs and some sevice guy didn't know what they were called (scary?).

Originally posted by rotarygod
Glow plugs are the diesel engine's equivalent of spark plugs. They better nto be installing those! They are probably just installing hooter plugs and some sevice guy didn't know what they were called (scary?).

Well I hope they are not installing hooter's either. The car will not run on milk as far as I know.

My spelling sucks. If they installed hooters I'd be there in a second. Is that what a car bra is for?

Originally posted by nicrsx
Your right about not many complex sentences.
But where is your brain?
This was a thread about flooding not batteries or not starting
because you can't tell the diff.
Talking down because you can't get it up er oops
thats what she said.

:o

My point exactly. This thread is about floods, not leaving your car for a month, letting the battery die, and then freaking out. I only asked if you were sure it wasn't the battery. Then you went nuts. Oh and by the way, "Your right..." is gramatically incorrect. Can't stand people who don't know how to use "your" and "you're." Go back to high school and take English again retard.

Originally posted by skagen
My point exactly. This thread is about floods, not leaving your car for a month, letting the battery die, and then freaking out. I only asked if you were sure it wasn't the battery. Then you went nuts. Oh and by the way, "Your right..." is gramatically incorrect. Can't stand people who don't know how to use "your" and "you're." Go back to high school and take English again retard.

Ahh poor baby
Let your daddy buy you another car.

Your manners speak to your character or lack of it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kurtschwanz
[B]I know the thread is about the flooding issue, and I will get to that in a moment. But I would like to comment on the dead battery issue first.

While I cannot agree or disagree with the comment that a dead battery after a month of non-use would be normal, I can attest to the fact that I have had my RX-8 battery die - twice now - after about 15 days of non-use....and that is definitely NOT normal in my experience! I have gone out of town on vacations dozens of times and left my other vehicle (a Jeep) in the garage. Come back and one turn of the key, it is running. And last fall, when I had just gotten the RX8, the Jeep sat for probably 4 or 5 weeks at one point without being touched.....and started right up.

As for the flooding - flooded mine about 3 1/2 weeks ago, simply by stalling it while backing out of the garage. I was *PISSED* when the dealer told me they would fix it one time for free, but after that it was my problem.


They say it is documented in the owner's manual...but excuse me, I did not get the manual until I had already bought the car! (Guess that's why it's called an Owner's Manual, huh?) :)

So where is the "prospective buyer's" manual? I waited three months from the time I ordered the car, sight unseen, last May, till the time I received it in August. During that time I got about a dozen things in the mail from Mazda...books, magazines, a thermos even!.....none of them explaining the unusual care and feeding required of the product. Had I known then, I probably would not buy the car, and I feel that is (criminal!) failure to disclose on Mazda's part.

Now, here's something I tried to search for in this forum but did not find. (Though admittedly, I did not read every single post on this topic yet.)

The car is actually at the dealer's as I am typing. After they fixed the flood problem last time, they apparently orderd "glow plugs" which they are installing free of charge.

(I'm also having my recal work done at the same time.)'

Here we go again.
Another problem area crops up. I have to agree that I have had
autos sit for more than that without any problem. The battery
shouldn't die in that amount of time with out any abnormal drain.
If you have some sort of high resistance short to ground ... well
ask a meter jockey.

I am trying to get a contact at Mazda other than their
customer answer boys on the web.
Any one have any good contacts?

Even if a class-action lawsuit loss required Mazda to replace the airbag "stickers" on the visors with safety instuctions stating we had to drive the car a minimum of 2 minutes when cold AND they had to reemburse each of us $100 per year for the extra fuel AND every prospective buyer had to sign a release before even looking at the car attesting that they understood the shortcomings of the car, this is still a DAMN fine car for the money.

I'm quite comfortable living with minor inconvenience in order to have:

- handling hardly found even in cars costing twice as much

- electric assist power steering which reacts to bumps on curve and really DOES assist.

- the cool factor of a carbon-fiber driveshaft (OK, 350Z's have this too, but can THEY seat 4? OK, so the G35 probably has one too, but can it seat TALL people in back?)

- a car that draws attention everywhere I go

- an engine that loves to be run hard and seems surprised & disappointed at it's own 9K redline.


New cars are neither an investment or a guarantee. Cars like this one are an emotional purchase. Buy a Camry if you want your due diligence to be handled by others.

My personal theory: Mazda will make a go of fixing the fuel & flooding problems within the confines of the 10-year plan (for emisions systems) as they now have more test vehicles than they did when they designed the car. If they can't get it right soon, they'll flash the cars to J-spec, leak that the 247HP is now on tap, and allocate funds to replace the cats when our cars start failing emissions in 2010.

The 2005 or 6 models will receive an actual fix or they'll reserve the RX8 for non-US markets just like they did with the RX7 from 1995 to 2003. (I would've loved to have one of those 7's with the almost-Renesis they released in 2002.)


- Eric H., Marietta, GA

Proudly driving a 70's throw-back: it burns oil and could potentially flood...my Honda Accord-drivng neighbors could never understand.

Understood!

But....
If you don't push on what needs to be fixed.
If you smile and say may I have another sir.
It may mean you are macho.
It may mean you truly are able to take the punishment.
It may mean you are being abused.
Dollars and cents.
You paid. They owe. Period
Great car to drive. I agree.
Can it be better?
Shouldn't they be working on making it better?
Shouldn't they stand behind their product?
No deep thought here. If you want passion... I mean a Ferrari..
thats passion. There was a time that I would take abuse
to drive what I liked. It is not quite that way anymore. Mazda
is never going to drive me to passion like Enzo's stuff.

This looks like the Big Bad Flood thread, so I'm going to post this here...

I just made an appointment at the dealership to have some work done. The service writer had some interesting things to say about the flooding issue.

I can't attest to the accuracy or truth of any of this, and to protect this well known movie director, I'm going to skirt around the name... Don't shoot the messenger -- I'm only repeating what I was told...

Big Big Time movie director owns an RX8 in the Hamptons. He's flooded at least a couple of times.

Somehow his dealer gets him in touch with the factory rep who in turn has the car towed in and not only does the local factory rep show up but a factory rep from Japan. They're doing a big study on this flooding issue and the director's car got some special attention.

Turns out that this rep from Japan doesn't speak the best english (but hey he's got one more language than I do!). Turns out his main reason for being here is the flooding issue and he expects to be here for THREE MONTHS researching the problem.

Service writer also tells me that the 8 is more prone to flooding than the 7.

Now I've only flooded once, but it wasn't by the book at all. 20 mile ride, shut off, 14 hours later started for two seconds and stalled. 20 minutes later, a lot of gas fumes and then nearly 3-4 minutes of thick black smoke and she started again...

Service writer said this is NOT the typical scenario so they're going to do the flash and see what else they can learn.

Bottom line is that I guess Mazda is looking at this problem pretty seriously and there may be some guy from Japan that's got his cookies in a squeeze over it.

Again, only repeating what I was told -- you don't like it -- you didn't hear it from me! :)

Tinkerer

My dealer also told me that the flooding would only be fixed once... they backed off when I wrote Mazda and complained. The letter I received from Mazda NA says:

"In regards to your question, any incidence of RX-8 flooding, whether it be dealer service or towing, will be covered uner Mazda New Vehicle Warranty (48months/50,000 miles). I apologize for any miscommunication between you and the dealer as dealers have been educated that the repair will always be covered by Mazda."

The latest TSB regarding "engine cranks/no start" (aka, flooding) expressly states that the engine de-flood procedure is covered. See these links:

Got My Letter: Flooding Covered Under Warranty! (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20065)

TSB: Engine Cranks No Start (http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/01-011-04.htm)

Verrry Interrresting...
Okay I'm done with the posting. It is a very informative process.
But I want to include the last reply I got from Mazda thru MyMazda.com
The reply follows:


Be assured, Nick, your comments have been passed on since the very
first e-mail that you sent. It is mandated that any contact from
customers regarding technical concerns are collected and coded into
categorical headings. Additionally, I have personally forwarded your
comments for technical review.

As I have noted to your previously, for ANY concerns brought to the
attention of a Mazda dealership, if they do not have a repair but can
duplicate any actual concern, they WILL be working with their Quality
Assurance towards resolution...this matter is no different. If this
design characteristic has been brought to dealerships as an owner
concern to the degree that you estimate, then you can be assured that
yes, there is technical development towards a repair. I have researched
this with technical contact points and have been advised that technical
support to dealerships are looking into the matter and that with such
design matters, countermeasures are usually developed.

I hope that this information helps. Remember, your Mazda dealership will


be continuously updated about such matters and will be a direct contact
for ANY technical matters. They work directly with their tech line
while any developments are being made and will be the first to receive
information and/or any countermeasure procedures.

Again, thank you for contacting Mazda. It has been my pleasure to
assist you.

Originally posted by nicrsx
Ahh poor baby
Let your daddy buy you another car.

Your manners speak to your character or lack of it.

Jesus Nic, Wakeech and Skagen are right. Leave your car for a month and it doesn't start and you think its flooded? That in itself already says you don't have much experience in the service industry. Stop being so anal and take that pine cone out of your ass. Makes no sense comparing a 30k and a 200k car. That's just friggin stupid.

Originally posted by nicrsx
Understood!

But....
If you don't push on what needs to be fixed.
If you smile and say may I have another sir.
It may mean you are macho.
It may mean you truly are able to take the punishment.
It may mean you are being abused.
Dollars and cents.
You paid. They owe. Period
Great car to drive. I agree.
Can it be better?
Shouldn't they be working on making it better?
Shouldn't they stand behind their product?
No deep thought here. If you want passion... I mean a Ferrari..
thats passion. There was a time that I would take abuse
to drive what I liked. It is not quite that way anymore. Mazda
is never going to drive me to passion like Enzo's stuff.

That is stupid. No sh@# a Ferrari is going to ignite a fire under your ass. That's like comparing an RX8 to a Pinto. Can it be improved? Yes, but keep it in perspective. This thread is about flooding issues, and you don't have any. Just poor car maintanance, like leaving your car for a month without starting it. Its your battery, as a couple of sensible people here tried telling you already. Oh, and try some decaf man.

LoL, that's cold Skagen. I hate it when people can't differentiate "your" and "you're" as well. Oh well, some just don't get it no matter what you say. Yea, Nic your battery died. Try starting your car more than once a month. Well ALL know about the serious flooding issue. Your feedback was already given by plenty others before you. Mazda acknowledges this is a problem already. Now, just wait for a solution. Unless of course you want to continue harassing Mazda and then having them put forth a mediocre solution. Simmer down and be patient.

http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/01-011-04.htm

nic: It's the first year of a new model. It will have bugs that need to be worked out. The first year is always the most problematic one. You knew this so why not wait until the 2nd or 3rd model year? Why do you think that Mazda isn't working to improve it? Do you work for Mazda Japan and know something we don't? You know there will be changes to the following model years. There always are. No shit it's no Ferrari! So you are saying that putting up with problems and taking abuse to drive what you love is acceptable from a several hundred thousand dollar car such as a Ferrari but a much cheaper car should be perfect? I see a problem with that. If a battery is weak how is that Mazda's fault? Isn't it the fault of the battery manufacturer? Nobody forces anyone to buy a car. That they do of their own free will. If a person buys a car that they have issues with, maybe they should have done their homework a little better before they signed on the dotted line. Mazda's marketing department did their job since you bought the car. They did nothing criminal. It is up to customer service to take car of issues and up to corporate to see that all of the issues from the first year and those that follow are worked out in each successive year model.

I wan't gonna but i gotta.
First this is fun.
Second my battery didnt die.
Third picking on spelling in a forum is a moronic.
Fourt all you need to do is to send your money to me for god sake,
because with the attitude of adolecent fans you will be parted
with it any way.
Hey
IF YOU GOT A BITCH WITH MAZDA WRITE EM... EMAIL THEM
CALL THEM... Yea it might do some good.
If not hey you have the pleasure to know that you made me
happy.
For all of you that already have tried to fight this battle including
Skankbut, I salute your efforts.

Originally posted by rotarygod
Glow plugs are the diesel engine's equivalent of spark plugs. They better nto be installing those! They are probably just installing hooter plugs and some sevice guy didn't know what they were called (scary?).

I guess they were calling them "cold" plugs and I was hearing "glow" plugs (because I am familiar with those in the context of a diesel).

They are, apparently, just a different model of plug that Mazda recommends for cold-weather drivers, or anyone who has had the flooding problem. They burn a little bit hotter and have a bigger spark. Apparently you cannot tell the difference except via the part number, they are identical in shape, size, color, etc. (for the brand they are using).

Originally posted by nicrsx

Third picking on spelling in a forum is a moronic.
Fourt all you need to do is to send your money to me for god sake,
because with the attitude of adolecent fans you will be parted
with it any way.


"...is a moronic"
"Fourt"
"adolecent"

Not only do you not know how to spell, you can't even write with proper grammar. Jeez, talk about adolescence, you write like you're in fifth grade lol. Like RotaryGod said, its the first year so just be patient.

Originally posted by nicrsx
I wan't gonna but i gotta.
First this is fun.
Second my battery didnt die.
Third picking on spelling in a forum is a moronic.
Fourt all you need to do is to send your money to me for god sake,
because with the attitude of adolecent fans you will be parted
with it any way.
Hey
IF YOU GOT A BITCH WITH MAZDA WRITE EM... EMAIL THEM
CALL THEM... Yea it might do some good.
If not hey you have the pleasure to know that you made me
happy.
For all of you that already have tried to fight this battle including
Skankbut, I salute your efforts.

Hey Furby, you forgot "I wan't gonna but I gotta."
What kind of sh@# are you writing Nic? Try using spellchecker before you post. The flooding issue is acknowledged, now shutup and wait. If you can't wait, then go buy a Ferrari cause it gives you so much PASSION, PASSION, PASSION!!! AAAAAAH! lol, lay off the caffeine freak.

thread has been reopened, i expect to see everything civil and back on-topic.

Originally posted by wakeech
thread has been reopened, i expect to see everything civil and back on-topic.

Right on... I'm kinda surprised it took this long for someone to step in :cool: I tried posting a "calm down everyone" reply the other night but my cable went out and I was too lazy to re-type it the next day.

Next thing you know this place will turn into another RX7 Forum :D

Why can't we all just get along?:p

Wow nice long thread...


Anyway yes my car flooded this past tuesday after work. We had some snow this past tuesday so it's 5 pm .... i'm ready to go home... turn the key and put it in reverse and my tires were spinning and my backend was sliding sideways instead of pulling backwards out of the lot and I was like "oh sh*t" and slam on the brakes and stall. Try to start it up again... no go. Lucking I had the mazda tow service hotline with me and had my car towed and am now driving an annoying ford taurus rental from enterpise while I'm waiting for my car back from hamilton mazda.

oi

sorry to hear of your bad luck

Hi, i'm new on this forum and i'm french (sorry for my english if i make a lot of errors)

I got a black RX8 and when I read all your reply on this topic i'm affraid to see that 1/4 of people had flooded their engine.

I just need one information about the flood. Do it happen only when we start and stop the car when the engine is cold? I mean if i drive my car several minutes and then I stop it. And then few minutes later i start and stop the engine while the engine is allready warm can i have the engine flooded? Or it happen only when the engine is cold?

It happen 2 or 3 times where I start and stop engine when I need to move the car in my parling but never flooded my engine.

I notice that 2 times I had difficult to start the car, i mean it start at the first time but take a little more time. seems to have difficult. Is it a kind of flooding?

Sorry for my english, we don't have french forum for RX8 :)

I drive about 120 miles a day during the week since March 2nd. I let it warm up until the engine revs normal and I have had no problems. The dealer told me about the flooding problem so I am alittle weary about it. And yes I do go through alot of gas.

Originally posted by dinbougre
Do it happen only when we start and stop the car when the engine is cold? I mean if i drive my car several minutes and then I stop it. And then few minutes later i start and stop the engine while the engine is allready warm can i have the engine flooded? Or it happen only when the engine is cold?

Don't worry about your writing, your English is a lot better than my French.

The official Mazda statement is that if the car is started, it should be allowed to run until the temperature gauge reads in the middle of the range. Hence, if the car is already warm this does not take long.

Note that one cannot predict whether a short trip (even with a cold engine) will cause flooding. Some people have done this with no flooding. Some people do it once and flood. However, because the flooding is not fully understood, it is strongly recommended that short trips be avoided if at all possible. Also, even if it does flood, sometimes the Mazda de-choking procedure in the owner's manual will work.

Originally posted by msrecant
Don't worry about your writing, your English is a lot better than my French.

The official Mazda statement is that if the car is started, it should be allowed to run until the temperature gauge reads in the middle of the range. Hence, if the car is already warm this does not take long.

Note that one cannot predict whether a short trip (even with a cold engine) will cause flooding. Some people have done this with no flooding. Some people do it once and flood. However, because the flooding is not fully understood, it is strongly recommended that short trips be avoided if at all possible. Also, even if it does flood, sometimes the Mazda de-choking procedure in the owner's manual will work.

ok thanks a lot :)

because when i went to the karsher and if there is a little queue i prefer not to stop the engine and then start it and then stop it and then... even if the engine is allready warm.

i don't understand, if the rotary engine has a problem off flooding when cold, then why don't they just make the car rev @ whatever RPM's for so long, to heat up enough not to flood. Or even better, what if the rotory engine just shot in a mixture of air/oil when you turn the car off, this way it can't flood. I mean maybe I don't fully understand the problems, but jeez it doesn't sound that hard to fix. My friends Audi's engine doesn't turn off until 1 minute after he pulls out the keys, so why don't they just make this a standard procedure on this rotary engine?

i have a problem with the cold start - engine starts to get crappy at higher RPM and the check engine lit up...

what happens to the engine when it floods so that it needs to go the the dealer and have the plugs replaced? Why should flooding hurt the plugs? Does any other damage get done?

--thinking of buying an RX-8 but definitely want dependability with my fun

I think the plug replacement is a precautionary measure. It's the removal of the plugs that's the requirement -- this allows the unburnt fuel to dry out.

I don't think there's a reliability issue. Not really. From what I've read, this has been a problem with the rotary which goes back a long time. Not all are affected, either.

The rule of thumb seems to be this: don't start the car if you're not going to drive it. (It's not good for any engine, piston or rotary or turbine, to shut it down cold -- most wear under normal conditions occurs in the first minute or two.)

Can anyone explain why the rotary doesn't just start like a piston engine if you let it sit for a few minutes after flooding? And why the plugs (and whatever else) need to be replaced? Why should flooding cause such problems?

--thinking of buying an RX-8

[QUOTE]Originally posted by thered1996
[B]I think the plug replacement is a precautionary measure. It's the removal of the plugs that's the requirement -- this allows the unburnt fuel to dry out.

This doesn't make sense to me. Unburned fuel should evaporate, as it does when a piston engine floods.

well what you have to understand is that the fuel doesn't evaporate, and yeah you can flood a piston engine bad enough that you have to open it up to clean everything out. when you flood an engine, gas gets into the seals, driving out the oil, and you completely lose compression, meaning that your engine's seals stop sealing. this isn't fixed by "evaporation" (which can't happen anyway in a closed motor: where is the fuel going to evaporate to?)

replacing the plugs with new ones is a BS way for dealerships/Mazda to make more money (selling more stuff is better than not), as all you really have to do is just clean off the lightly fouled plugs (not even necessary in many cases)... i mean, you don't even have to gap the damned things, there's nothing to go wrong, and at like $20 a pop or whatever it is, just soak them in solvant for 5 seconds, brush them, clean 'em off with a rag and done. that takes a mechanic a good 15 seconds, you don't need new plugs.

opening up the combustion chamber is necessary to get the pooled gasoline out of the engine (the gasoline can't drain directly into the sump) and so you can drip a little oil in to regain compression (if the flood is bad enough).

Originally posted by wakeech
replacing the plugs with new ones is a BS way for dealerships/Mazda to make more money (selling more stuff is better than not), as all you really have to do is just clean off the lightly fouled plugs

This is the first reasonable response I have heard to this question. The "old time" rotary owners seemed to take for granted that new plugs and an oil change is how one deals with a flooded rotary. Never made much sense if too much fuel and too little compression was the problem.

hey wakeech,
If your car did flood, couldn't u just push it into 1st and have some car push u some to just clean the engine? Wouldn't that be a faster method? I mean granted that oil is clogged around the spark plugs, but lets say it does start... Would you still have to clean the spark plugs after you started it? Or would revving the engine some just clean the whole thing? And wouldn't a CV ECU piggyback system give you a less chance of this occuring?

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Wakeech
well what you have to understand is that the fuel doesn't evaporate, and yeah you can flood a piston engine bad enough that you have to open it up to clean everything out. when you flood an engine, gas gets into the seals, driving out the oil, and you completely lose compression, meaning that your engine's seals stop sealing. this isn't fixed by "evaporation" (which can't happen anyway in a closed motor: where is the fuel going to evaporate to?)

opening up the combustion chamber is necessary to get the pooled gasoline out of the engine (the gasoline can't drain directly into the sump) and so you can drip a little oil in to regain compression (if the flood is bad enough).

Thanks, Wakeech, this is helpful. But a few more questions: I've never heard of a piston engine flooding so bad it had to be opened up, and I remember some pretty bad instances of flooding from my childhood. Wouldn't just turning the engine over with the starter motor get the oil squirting back onto the cylinder walls in a piston engine to seal the seals, and wouldn't it do the analogous thing in a rotary? And wouldn't any pooled gasoline evaporate out through the intake and exhaust ports (whatever they are called) in a rotary, as I suspect it does in a piston engine? My late mother may she rest in peace flooded the '65 Peugeot fairly often in the winter, all you had to do was wait 5-10 minutes and the thing would start, and gasoline is very volatile.

There is an awful long amount of time where there is no intake or exhaust port for fuel to evaporate out through. It depends on the location of the rotor face.

Keech, I wish I had the technical answer for this one but I don't. The sparkplugs sometimes get ruined and will not do their job, refusing to be revived. A fresh set makes a huge difference.
One of the problems that the RX-8 had was; and I mentioned this previously, that with a weak enough battery the management goes into a mode where the throttle will not go beyond a certain opening angle (might have been 25%). This creates two problems : Ideally any flooded engine, piston or rotary, benefits from having a wide open throttle. This provides the needed volume of air that can help evacuate the chambers. The second problem is that I'm not sure if the fuel defeat feature is operational if the throttle does not actually physically achieve full opening. Maybe this could already have been addressed with the latest computer upgrade (re-flash). Who knows?

Originally posted by CERAMICSEAL
Keech, I wish I had the technical answer for this one but I don't. The sparkplugs sometimes get ruined and will not do their job, refusing to be revived. A fresh set makes a huge difference.
One of the problems that the RX-8 had was; and I mentioned this previously, that with a weak enough battery the management goes into a mode where the throttle will not go beyond a certain opening angle (might have been 25%). This creates two problems : Ideally any flooded engine, piston or rotary, benefits from having a wide open throttle. This provides the needed volume of air that can help evacuate the chambers. The second problem is that I'm not sure if the fuel defeat feature is operational if the throttle does not actually physically achieve full opening. Maybe this could already have been addressed with the latest computer upgrade (re-flash). Who knows?

If a weak battery is the reason for a lot of flooding could this be the answer?

http://batterytender.com/default.php?cPath=11_2&osCsid=b1505cf75fbce80bd6a75649dd9b4eee

With regards to the flooding issue and replacing the plugs, piston vs. rotary engine.

First, maybe a model A Ford would need to be opened up due to a severe flooding issue; however, today's piston engines WILL NOT flood to an extreme where they would have to be opened. They are configured in such a way that once the fuel is discontinued to the piston chamber, i.e., by disconnecting the injector fuse or by manipulating the carb on the older models, the unburnt fuel with be discharged through the exhaust valves due to the combustion. This leads me to my second point, the combustion loss that the rotary engine experiences is not to be compared to a piston engine. It is not established in the same manner; therefore, cannot be lost in the same manner. The seal shape and make up inside the rotary engine yields it's ability to lose combustion easier then the piston engine.

I agree with the previous statement about the ability to clean the plugs instead of replacing them, a costly savings. However, I think you need to inspect them everytime you experience a flooding issue with the 8. My reasoning, if your vehicle floods and you are able to get it started, the unburnt fuel/oil mixture that the plugs have been bathing in will get burned onto the plugs and cause them to foul. A simple-layman explaination.

I have dealt with my wife's vehicle flooding in the past and have explained to her how to operate the vehicle to curb the posibility of this happening again. Thus far she hasn't experienced any problems. Just remember. Anytime you start the rotary engine, allow the engine to reach normal operating temperature before it is turned off and you will not experience any problems.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tgarland855
[B]With regards to the flooding issue and replacing the plugs, piston vs. rotary engine.

>... the combustion loss that the rotary engine experiences is not to be compared to a piston engine. It is not established in the same manner; therefore, cannot be lost in the same manner. The seal shape and make up inside the rotary engine yields it's ability to lose combustion easier then the piston engine.

Very interesting. Can anyone explain why this is so? What it is about the seal shape or whatever that makes this so much more of a problem with a rotary than with a piston engine ?

>I agree with the previous statement about the ability to clean the plugs instead of replacing them, a costly savings. However, I think you need to inspect them everytime you experience a flooding issue with the 8. My reasoning, if your vehicle floods and you are able to get it started, the unburnt fuel/oil mixture that the plugs have been bathing in will get burned onto the plugs and cause them to foul.

I am aware that the rotary normally uses oil much faster than a piston engine. Is much oil getting into the combustion chamber? Could this, rather than the gasoline, account for the need to clean or change plugs after a flooding?

Originally posted by davidholzman the rotary normally uses oil much faster than a piston engine. Is much oil getting into the combustion chamber? Could this, rather than the gasoline, account for the need to clean or change plugs after a flooding?

well yeah, oil is purposefully metered (sort of "injected", but at a very very slow, runny drip kinda thing) into the motor to lubricate the apex seals of the rotor. no, very very little oil is actually getting into the motor these days in the 13B-MSP, compared to some of the first rotaries where there was an oil drip down from the carb into the motor.

there isn't that much oil ever going into the motor (in regular operation, obviously) and is burned away rather cleanly during combustion.
when you flood the motor, there ends up being a lot of condensed gasoline puddled in the motor, and as you try to push it out the exhaust ports (turning it over) gas is going to nicely coat the sparkplugs. as you probably know, gasoline is a hydrocarbon, meaning it's a non-polar organic molecule (oil's the same type of dealie). this sort of compound won't conduct, and so crudded up sparkplugs won't spark (or if they can, it takes an enormous drain in order to).

cleaning off the plugs is a good (an necessary) way to remove this resistance. replacing these plugs is a good (and unnecessary) way for the dealer to gouge profits. there's no electrode to gap on these rotary style plugs, so cleaning (even with a wire brush) isn't often going to ruin the plugs, is really easy to do, and is a much better option compared to replacing the plugs (OH!! unless you're going from the cold plugs to the new hotter spec plugs... if you have an old car, as the new ones already have these spec plugs).

Originally posted by wakeech
well yeah, oil is purposefully metered (sort of "injected", but at a very very slow, runny drip kinda thing) into the motor to lubricate the apex seals of the rotor. no, very very little oil is actually getting into the motor these days in the 13B-MSP, compared to some of the first rotaries where there was an oil drip down from the carb into the motor.

there isn't that much oil ever going into the motor (in regular operation, obviously) and is burned away rather cleanly during combustion.
when you flood the motor, there ends up being a lot of condensed gasoline puddled in the motor, and as you try to push it out the exhaust ports (turning it over) gas is going to nicely coat the sparkplugs. as you probably know, gasoline is a hydrocarbon, meaning it's a non-polar organic molecule (oil's the same type of dealie). this sort of compound won't conduct, and so crudded up sparkplugs won't spark (or if they can, it takes an enormous drain in order to).

cleaning off the plugs is a good (an necessary) way to remove this resistance. replacing these plugs is a good (and unnecessary) way for the dealer to gouge profits. there's no electrode to gap on these rotary style plugs, so cleaning (even with a wire brush) isn't often going to ruin the plugs, is really easy to do, and is a much better option compared to replacing the plugs (OH!! unless you're going from the cold plugs to the new hotter spec plugs... if you have an old car, as the new ones already have these spec plugs).

This was all really interesting. More questions: exactly what causes the carbon depositions on the plugs? Why is one episode of flooding enough to create such deposits when and engine can go through billions of cycles before the plugs need replacement? Unlike oil, I think of gasoline as too volatile to stick to the plugs long enough to get carbonized on, but if there's hardly any oil, that wouldn't make sense to me either. Thanks again.

I have started and stopped the engine without waiting and haven't had a problem. I have also started the engine once and turned it off by accident but still had no problem.

However when i stop the engine I rev it up to 4.000 and turn off the key. I like the way it sounds

Some say that rev'ing the engine before turning it off will use excess fuel, but doesn't rev'ing the engine, stepping on the gas, actually create a situation where more fuel is going to the engine? And then shutting it off all of a sudden, wouldn't that cause a flooding scenario?

Originally posted by skagen
Some say that rev'ing the engine before turning it off will use excess fuel, but doesn't rev'ing the engine, stepping on the gas, actually create a situation where more fuel is going to the engine? And then shutting it off all of a sudden, wouldn't that cause a flooding scenario?

No, because the motor spins fro several seconds after you shut off the ignition. During that time the injectors are off sending no fuel to the motor. So basically the motor spins without getting any fuels. The theory being that the fuel is then expelled out the exhaust

Originally posted by saxRX-8
I have started and stopped the engine without waiting and haven't had a problem. I have also started the engine once and turned it off by accident but still had no problem.

I have also started/stopped my RX-8 on at least two occasions without a problem and I do not rev my engine before cutoff. Unfortunately, so little is know about the phenomena that I believe having successfully done a "short trip" doesn't prove anything, one way or the other.

I believe that the best thing to do to insure against flooding is to let the engine always warm up per the Mazda warning.

Have had my Sunlight Silver AT RX-8 for about a month. Moved parking spaces in my driveway. The next morning, car wouldn't start. Was told the engine got flooded. Plugs got fouled. Had to replace plugs to restart.

My RX8 got flooded yesterday. Thanks to reading this forum, I was able to figure it out.

No flooding here. I have a question regarding drive train noise. I have a 2004 RX8 4 speed auto. When after shifting into drive or reverse and just as I roll of I hear a noise coming from the differential or drive train. It sounds like something engageing, say maybe the limited slip diff??? The shop mech says he does not hear it.?????

About the flooding, I was told that when moving the car (RX8) a short distance on cold or hot soaked engine to rev the engine to 4000 rpm and turn of key. This blows excess fuel out the back and helps prevent flooding next startup.

I have a problem every time I wash my car. I pull out of the garage, turn it off, wash it, start it up and pull it back in the garage. When I go to start it up again (anywhere from a few hours or a day later), it will not start. Fluding, I think! This has happened twice.

What you need to do is if you ever just move the car quick and shut it off, next time you start it push the gas pedal all the way down to the floor while you crank it. Just let it spin over for a second or two and then take your foot off the gas while still cranking. It should start. This is in the manual as the unflood procedure but if you do it my way it is more of a flood prevention procedure. If it floods, it is too late. It is not a guarantee that it will not flood but it will greatly reduce the odds.

I need to change my vote in this poll- I went from
"No" to "Yes" today.

Oh - and my service manager claims he had about 100 8's towed in this winter for the flooding problems- :) Bit of tall tale wouldn't you say?

The 8 looks pretty good even on the back of a flat bed! I should have taken a picture.

My RX8 flooded yesterday and was the first time. I had to tow it to the dealership where they change the plugs and reset the system. They told me that they got a bulleting with instructions how to reset the computer to change the amount of gas to be used on a start. I wander why we dont get any messages from Mazda either to come to them to reset the computer or to explain what can happen to avoid the problem. In my case the day before I start up only for a few seconds to take it our from the garage for a was and then move it back.:(

It flooded for the 2nd time this AM. It better be covered in full. I am so tired of this crap! I don't have time for this. The 8 is proving to be very unreliable!

Is flooding covered under our warranty?

All of you people who keep saying that your cars have flooded. I GUARANTEE that I could drive your cars and not flood it once, ever! No I would not need to wait for it to warm up. I've already said how elsewhere on this forum. It is very easy and you don't have to change anything on the car. You don't have to rev it up before you turn it off and you don't need a turbo timer. Learn how to treat your cars. If I can get it not to flood, it must not be a defect. I've owned several rotaries long enough to know how to not flood them.

Originally posted by rotarygod
All of you people who keep saying that your cars have flooded. I GUARANTEE that I could drive your cars and not flood it once, ever! No I would not need to wait for it to warm up. I've already said how elsewhere on this forum. It is very easy and you don't have to change anything on the car. You don't have to rev it up before you turn it off and you don't need a turbo timer. Learn how to treat your cars. If I can get it not to flood, it must not be a defect. I've owned several rotaries long enough to know how to not flood them.

Isn't it possible that due to very slight differences some RX-8s are more prone to flooding than others? In the same way that people have been reporting very different gas mileage even for similar driving?

We're all going to laugh hysterically when you flood rotarygod (jk) :)

Originally posted by RotoRooter
Is flooding covered under our warranty?

Yes. See this thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20065). Any incidence of RX-8 flooding, whether it be dealer service or towing, is covered uner Mazda New Vehicle Warranty (48months/50,000 miles).

Originally posted by davidholzman
Isn't it possible that due to very slight differences some RX-8s are more prone to flooding than others? In the same way that people have been reporting very different gas mileage even for similar driving?

Maybe. That is irrelevant. There is a way to start the car everytime. I am the only person who can start my '84 RX-7 aside from the person who taught me how. Everyone else will flood it. Even before I learned how to start it, when I did flood it I didn't need a tow truck. I wouldn't need a tow truck for a flooded automatic. People need to learn what their car needs and how to get out of a potentially bad situation. the unflood procedure in the manual is actually a very good idea. Just don't wait until it floods to do it. It is too late. Be proactive rather than retroactive.

One person's idea of similar driving by pure description through words is purely subjective.

Originally posted by rotarygod
There is a way to start the car everytime.
Are you just teasing us rotarygod? Are you saying I could have avoided flooding my engine when I came home from work and found that my wife had moved my car?

Originally posted by Kmixzoomzoom
I have a problem every time I wash my car. I pull out of the garage, turn it off, wash it, start it up and pull it back in the garage. When I go to start it up again (anywhere from a few hours or a day later), it will not start. Fluding, I think! This has happened twice.

Why don't you folllow the short-trip procedures in the manual?

Kinda like wondering why you get burned when you tip coffee from McDonalds on you - didn't you read the warning on the cup?

I had been concerned about the flooding but I found that if I spin the engine up without touching the gas pedal, it starts flawlessly everytime. I had a moment of fear in a grocery store parking lot when it wouldn't start, but it was because I was depressing the pedal while trying to start it. Ever since then I have stopped depressing the pedal and it starts immediately. We only have 1,000 miles on it so it could get worse. To my surprise it hasn't used a drop of oil. So far I am very happy with it, we are even getting around 18 mpg average with mostly city driving.

I noticed the engine light come on after only 80 km on my new RX8. The dealer told me to bring it in. Their diagnosis was that the engine was flooded and the spark plugs were effected by this too. I was very aware of the warnings not to turn the car off immediately and to let it warm up so I was very surprised that this happened. They told me that perhaps the car had some issue before I even received it.

Well I got the car back tonight and was happy to have it back. I warmed it up and took it out for a spin only for the darn engine light to come back on again. The car runs and starts no problem however the engine light denotes that there is probably another flooding issue like before.

Needless to say with less than 100km on a new car I am not very impressed and I have to admit I feel a little bit of buyers remorse. I love the car but if it is going to be this finicky I am really going to get nervous. How do you give the car back if it keeps doing this? You know how dealers are. Once you buy it is your problem. This is very inconvenient to say the least. Now I will be without a car for another day and it is extremely inconvenient just to bring the car into the dealer as everyone knows.

Has anyone else had this problem with the engine light coming on for no apparent fault of your own? (with the result being flooding)

Originally posted by KBert

Well I got the car back tonight and was happy to have it back. I warmed it up and took it out for a spin only for the darn engine light to come back on again. The car runs and starts no problem however the engine light denotes that there is probably another flooding issue like before.


The dealer is talking out of their ass... When the car is flooded it won't start. It doesn't flood when you're driving along.

Probably your gas cap is loose or there is some other sensor indicating an issue. There are a myriad of reasons why the check engine light might come on, the dealer should be able to pull the error codes from the computer and know which system is generating the error and go from there.

Filling your head with paranoia about flooding should be something they should not do... Sounds like you're following the short trip procedures and you didn't mention any problems starting so you're on the right track for avoiding any actual flooding issues.

If you really want to give up on figuring out what is probably a faulty sensor or something else equally as benign you should check the lemon laws in your area (if they have any) and go from there.

But - don't believe the dealer telling you the car is flooded, unless it won't start then it's not flooded and the engine light is for some other reason.

Simon.

Thanks Simon. That really makes sense. I ended up taking the car to another dealer and they told me the same thing that you just wrote here that it doesn't sound like flooding. He will be giving me the results today when they check into it. They gave me a loaner which the other dealer didn't do the first time so that made me feel better.

All I want is the car back working like it is supposed to. I will update when I get the results from them.

Okay I got the car back and what I got was good news. The dealer told me that the other dealer that I brought the car to originally was so totally wrong about the diagnosis. It was not a flooding problem (obviously as the car was running fine.) The reason the engine light was coming on had to do with a problem with the catalytic converter which was defective from day one.

They put the order in for a brand new one and told me that I could drive the car no problem with the light on until they receive the new converter for me in a few days.

Needless to say I am very happy now. I have my car back and there was no problem with flooding. Woo Hoo. Zoom zoom.

By the way, the more I drive this car the more I love it. It is a beauty!

Good to hear that they figured out what the problem was and you're getting it fixed up - sad to hear that there's an uninformed dealer running about telling phooey to their customers though, but sounds like it's not an unusual occurance either.

Once you get used to the powerband/rev-range in the car and comfortable with the handling it does get more and more fun to drive.

Cheers,
Simon

They put the order in for a brand new one and told me that I could drive the car no problem with the light on until they receive the new converter for me in a few days.

If the code was a P0420 the new converter will not fix the problem. The code list in the manual tells the tech that the converter is defective...In reality it is a PCM problem.

Find out what the code is and post it please.

I will find out and post it

a P0420 is i think the same code i got for a false evap test failure. am i correct there? but i thought that "bug" was fixed by a pcm version several letters ago. like k or earlier.

which reminds me i was going to start a list of codes, their meanings and the fixes. i need to get on that.

The P0420 is a false reading from the front 02 sensor.

The evap system was a P2404/P0456 code.

check out the evap system here.

http://forum.mazda6tech.com/viewtopic.php?t=16

The system in the Rx8 is the same as the Mz6

I know this is way off topic for the thread..I apologize:)

Can somebody help me PLEASE?

I had some starting problems with my 8 (no flooding) but since the dealers/mechanics here are not so well informed, I'd like to hear the opinions of some of you guys who are expert with the rotary engines.Please bare with me:

My rx-8 has only 1400miles. When the dealer handed over the keys to me on day one, he said: 'before turning the engine off, rev it to 4000rpm, keep it there for a sec or two, and then kill it so that it burns the excess fuel in the chamber'(method 1). Sounded wierd, but I did exactly what he told me.

At 500miles I'm back at the dealer to check something else, and a mechanic sees me turning off the engine like that and starts shouting! So I got pissed :mad:, since it was his boss's advice to do so! He insisted never to do that again,but let the engine run for 1 or 2 minutes before turning the ignition key off, like a turbo engine!(Method 2) I agreed with him,because he seemed well educated with the rotary's predicaments...

One day, when the car had 800miles, I was driving in traffic, and I reached my destination after one and a half hours :( I waited for well over 3 minutes before I turned the engine off. However when I got back I couldn't start up the car. I'm quite stubborn as a character, so after 20minutes I managed to bring the renesis to life :cool: by cranking for 8-10secs, pressing and lifting my foot off the accelerator pedal. Sad thing is that this story happened again at 900miles on the odometer.

After these incidents I decided to go back to method 1 (the one the dealer told me) and I have realized up until now that the car is starting immediately and with no problems at all! I wonder: is this causing damage to the engine? Or maybe it was the long trip in traffic the cause of all the problems?
Please know that the reflashes are not available in my country yet, so which is the right way to shut down the renesis engine? And when you start your car do you step on the accelerator? (I sometimes do out of fear that it won't start)

P.S. Sorry about the long story and if my english is not so good but I could use some help here (flooding seems very close... :confused: )

Hi there,

To clarify a few things. You do not need to rev the engine and shut it off if you have already warmed up the car. Flooding occurs when you cold start the vehicle and then shut it of instantly, for example moving it out of the garage to wash your car. As for your case, you already drove the car for an hour so there's no need to rev the engine.

Secondly, how are you starting your car? Are you holding down the gas pedal and starting your car? If you are, that's the reason why it won't start. If you hold down the gas pedal for about 10 seconds before turning the ignition it cuts off fuel to the engine. This is a safety mechanism that you use only if you believe the car is flooded. Some people have been holding down the gas pedal for 10 seconds and THEN turning the ignition. If you do this, the car might not start because there's no fuel being injected to the engine.

It doesn't hurt your car if you rev and then shut it off by the way. The best recommendation I can give is to get your pcm flash to "m." It is the latest update from Mazda and it is covered by warranty. Click on the link below and it clearly states that all 8's coming in for maintance of any kind should have their pcm flashed to "m" since it contains software logic that could prevent possible flooding conditions. If you have any more questions feel free to ask.

http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/01-011-04-1273d.pdf

First of all, thanks for your time Skagen!

I am starting the car with the ignition key. I only use the gas pedal when it won't start, after two times of turning the ignition for a few seconds.

The reflash must be great from what I read in other threads. I 'll ask the dealer when it's going to be available in my country! By the way, the 'M' is better than the 'L', isn't it?(since it's the latest update?)

So your point is that the traffic was not the real problem. But how do you park your car, just bring it to a stop, turn it off straight away and then leave? You don't even wait for a minute or so?

If the car is warmed up, I just shut it off - no throttle blips or excessive idling.

Hmm, ok. Maybe I should just have it checked then and see why my 8 is giving me these bad starts...

Originally posted by RotorManiac
First of all, thanks for your time Skagen!

I am starting the car with the ignition key. I only use the gas pedal when it won't start, after two times of turning the ignition for a few seconds.

The reflash must be great from what I read in other threads. I 'll ask the dealer when it's going to be available in my country! By the way, the 'M' is better than the 'L', isn't it?(since it's the latest update?)

So your point is that the traffic was not the real problem. But how do you park your car, just bring it to a stop, turn it off straight away and then leave? You don't even wait for a minute or so?

Yes, that's correct. If you've been driving your 8 around for atleast 15 minutes you can go ahead and just park and shut it down. The only time you have to warm it up is say you parked it in the garage and you want to take it out to wash it. Then you would need to warm up the car after you started it cause its a cold start. If you shut it down immediately you might have a flood in the engine. Now, the "m" flash is supposed to prevent situations like that, so I would seriously suggest getting updated as soon as it comes out in your country.

Now, remember what your dealer told you? "before turning the engine off, rev it to 4000rpm, keep it there for a sec or two, and then kill it so that it burns the excess fuel in the chamber" this is a really good procedure if you're going to move the car a little distance like taking it out of the garage for a car wash. Its exactly what I do when I have to move my car only a few feet. The reason for it is because it burns off excess fuel as the engine spins when you turn it off, burning off some of the fuel that might still be in the engine chamber. Hope this helps you. Don't be intimidated by the way. The chances of flooding are minimal, now that doesn't mean it can't happen, but don't get too paranoid about it either.

Originally posted by rotarygod

I'm not taliking pints here just a couple of ounces each. I don't care what anyone says, it does NOT build compression.

With a cold engine, a huge amount of fuel is required just to get enough to vaporize, so it can burn

A smaller injector can atomize fuel into smaller particles since they spray the fuel in a finer mist at a lower flow level than their larger counterparts.


rotarygod - youv'e shared a lot of great info here - in fact so much good techie info I'm surprised you let a few of these slide thru. I can't begin to list all the good info - just suffice it to say that it's a LOT - thanks!

But I do have a few different $0.02 on a couple of items you posted - here's my take...


You CAN use ATF or what I prefer whcih is Marvel Mystery Oil believe it or not. In an older rotary that has sat a lon gwhile it can release seals and restore compression. In ANY rotary that is flooded it restores compression be restoring a film of oil on the housing needed for good compression. You don't have to add ATF but it can help. When gas condenses - the insides get sloppy wet w/ gas in it's liquid state. Gas is a solvent that 'cleans' the housing - having a rotor spin around in a chamber sloppy w/ gas will effectively have no compression not because of the shape of the seals (which can be more squared than you realize) but because the film is wiped clean by the gas.

On a cold engine a huge amount of gas is not required - that's why only a subset of injectors are firing when cranking...

A smaller injector does NOT make smaller (or larger particles) - it affects volume and only volume. A vapor particle is a vapor particle. Different injectors may have different spray patterns but that's incidental to size as well.

Like you I'm a little disappointed Mazda hasn't better put this issue to bed. They seem to be relearning and dealing w/ many issues of the past. Thru the 80s and 90s they were steadily improving gas mileage and they were steadily mitigating the flooding problem compared to teh early EGI days. Maybe it's like NASA going to the moon or osmething - too many years have gone by and perhaps some knowledge has not transferred? Heck when did they last develop a rotary? 12A and 13B came from teh early 1970s didnt' they?

thanks,

PS: I have another theory - in the intervening years since major Rx7 development (3rd gen), the EPA has more closely monitored and regulated emissions at startup - this could impact or constrain their options for mitigating flooding conditions...? Purely speculation on my part however...

You helped me a lot Skagen, thanks! Especially when you said in your previous post that the gas pedal cuts off fuel when pressed(for 10secs). Didn't know that!

Oh, and paranoia became routine now with the bad starts. Happened again after I washed it, although she was warmed up! My baby plays hard... but I play harder :D hehe!! One way or another, I always get her up and running!

pgtr: The biggest issue with using ATF in the rotary is that it does cause the oil seals to permanently swell up. This is Mazda's excuse about synthetic oil but in that application the statement is pure fiction. You need to be very careful of how much you use and how many times you do it. ATF is some bad stuff. It does free up seals by eating carbon deposits but there are other ways around this. I won't risk damaging my oil seals by using it. Marvel mystery oil is fine and I use it when I build new engines. I will not let ATF anywhere near the inside of my engines. Take an oil control ring and soak it in ATF sometime. Next time I have one I'll do it and post a picture. It's scary to think people put that crap in their engines after you see the results. I'm not sure about the effects it has on the aftermarket Viton rings though and these are what I use in my RX-7 engine.

I stand by my statement on not building compression in a flooded engine. The issue is getting the excess fuel out of the engine and keeping the plugs clean enough to fire effectively. The chamber surface can be dead dry but as long as the plugs can get a good spark, the seals aren't stuck, and there isn't too much or too little fuel, the engine will fire. A dry surface may not be good from a friction and wear standpoint but it has nothing to do with how well the engine starts. There is always residual oil in the chamber if there is residual fuel anyways. Gas does not break it down. It is still there. If it completely dissolved it, there would be no point in spraying it into the combustion chamber.

A finer spray pattern really is the issue with injectors. Sometimes you just need to write things in simpler terms just to get the point across, even if it is slightly inaccurate from a technical standpoint. That is usually the issue that people get on my case about when I write things. They always try to analyze it down to the exact textbook definition rather than take it for what it is. I'm long winded enough. I don't need to write in even more detail if I can get the point across.

I have heard of the flooding issue for quite awhile, and this norning it finally happened. Its a no start whatsoever...what gets me is I had the M flash last week. I thought this was supposed to improved the the possibility of NOT flooding. As many others, I am pretty frustrated. Its a Sunday, have to have it picked up tommorrow for the dealer to inspect.

I tried the methods mentioned here for starting the engine.No success. What a real pain in the arse! Only 9000 miles too!

Wayne

Sorry to hear that you flooded, Wayne. Can you give some details? Was the car cold when shut down? If so, how long before you retried it? What was the weather like? Did you use the emergency start procedure immediately, or after a few cranks, or not at all? What octane fuel were you using? Did the battery die on you?

RotaryGod has said in an earlier post that one who understands the problem should never flood, and I generally agree with him, but you've got 9k miles and have been around the block... what happened?

The key is to be proactive rather than retroactive about potential flooding issues.

I have a friend who looks at this forum but isn't subscribed who bought his car last month. We painted his brake calipers so the car sat around for a while and had time to cool. I told him to start it. About 10 seconds later I reached over and shut it off. He had this horrified look on his face. I told him I was going to prove a point. Believe me, he's read the flooding stories here. I told him to step on the gas and floor it. I then told him to crank the engine over and he did. He let it go for a few seconds then I told him to take his foot off of the gas while still cranking. The car started. This proved that there wasn't an abundance of fuel in the engine and that it would have started if he had just gotten in and cranked it with no gas. I let it run for about 30 seconds and again I shut it off. Once again I told him to hold his foot down and crank it and once again he did. This time after a few seconds the car started! When it started I immediately told him to take his foot off of the gas. It kept running. The engine will rev up high if you don't as fuel is reintroduced when it starts. Despite his foot being all the way down with no fuel going into the engine, there was still enough sitting in the combustion chamber to start it. He almost certainly would have flooded it if he had done it any other way. Needless to say that made a believer out of him and he isn't worried about flooding anymore. Luckily he is a very muscular person so if he ever did flood it, he has the strength to push the car fast enough to pop the clutch! I told him that if he is ever in doubt or worried, floor it when starting. If it doesn't start after a few seconds take your foot off the gas and it will. If it did start you did a good thing. This really isn't an inconveniece and only takes a few seconds. It is much faster than pushing it or calling a tow truck.

Originally posted by Irish_in_a_RX8
I have heard of the flooding issue for quite awhile, and this norning it finally happened. Its a no start whatsoever...what gets me is I had the M flash last week. I thought this was supposed to improved the the possibility of NOT flooding. As many others, I am pretty frustrated. Its a Sunday, have to have it picked up tommorrow for the dealer to inspect.

I tried the methods mentioned here for starting the engine.No success. What a real pain in the arse! Only 9000 miles too!

Wayne

Well what exactly happened? Did you cold start it in the morning and shut it down? Give us a couple more details, it might not be flooded.

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
Sorry to hear that you flooded, Wayne. Can you give some details? Was the car cold when shut down? If so, how long before you retried it? What was the weather like? Did you use the emergency start procedure immediately, or after a few cranks, or not at all? What octane fuel were you using? Did the battery die on you?

RotaryGod has said in an earlier post that one who understands the problem should never flood, and I generally agree with him, but you've got 9k miles and have been around the block... what happened?


This perhaps ( I will admit ) may of been my own fault - just not thinking!

Temperature was 65F, car was running fine during the morning detail. I believe this is when the flood happened. I had to pull out of the driveway to straighten out. Must of taken, say 45 seconds. Did not wait for the car to warm up - my error?

Well I tried the suggested crank method 3 times during the day ( no more than 8 seconds), and once early this morning. It was a no start. With the rain pouring down, my poor ole 8 had to be towed to the nearest dealer. They confirmed it was flooded. Waiting for the call back now.

I got the M Flash last week which is the frustrated part, still if human error, no flash is going to prevent flooding it seems.

Sigh.

Thanks guys
Wayne

Wayne,

Is yours an MT or an Automatic?

Originally posted by msrecant
Wayne,

Is yours an MT or an Automatic?

Its an AT.

Classic flood in every respect...

Indeed.

RX-8 is back on the driveway, new plugs and unflooded. Apparently 'better' plugs.

I finally found out what the code was and in fact it is PO 420. Are you telling me that this dealer doesn't know what is going on with the car as well? I have been driving with the engine light on for over a week now and they tell me that it is fine to do so. I called today and they still don't have to converter in yet. They should get it in a day or so.

What is a PCM problem and how can they fix it? Is it serious?

Thank you

According to the list (which is a sticky thread in here, just like this one) the code is:
P0420 Catalyst system efficiency below threshold ON 2 Catalyst

I doubt there's any harm done driving it with that code present, until they fix the issue - especially since it's only going to be a few more days.

Hey Guys,
i'm new here, in fact i don't even own an RX8...yet !
i'm getting a new car this summer (next fall tops) and i'm a big fan of sporty cars. the only problem is that i never really appreciated coupes since i never liked the idea of someone pushing me out of my seat to get out (bad childhood experience with my grandmother's 1976 VW Beetle).
Anyways, when finally i've been able to put that conviction aside, i've considered many options, Audi TT, the new Mustang 05, BMW Z3, Nissan 350Z and even weighed the Peugoet 307 CC. (all this to quench my thirst for a Porsche 911, a longtime desire of mine). 3 or 4 days ago i've been browsing and i accidentally took a look on Mazda's range (never even remotely considered it before).
i instantly fell in love !!! RX8 was the coupe i've been searching for in terms of looks, performance, technology and space.
Did my research on the Yahoo Auto section and started reading the users' feedback, i read many of those were mentioning an engine flooding problem, so i expanded my research and i found this incredible website!
i immediately ran through searches of engine flooding, engine failures, etc... till i reached this thread and i read all 28 pages of it !
i really must adress a "Thank You" note to every single post here as it expanded my knowledge on rotary engines, previous mazdas, problem fixes, engine handling and so forth. my buying decision was put on hold when i heard about this problem but it was gradually eased out while reading through this thread. i'm totally sold now, if all what you say guys about this car is true then i'm willing to handle a flooded engine once in a long while !

However i still have a couple of questions :

I currently own an Alfa 156 1.6 L T. Spark; it approximately makes about 18-20 MPG; i first thought that the 1.3 L Mazda engine would give out plenty more mileage, however i was shocked to know that it gives it less or equal at best ! can anyone help me with that ? [COLOR=red] In Addition, can someone plz explain to me why is it that a 1.3 L rotary engine does less or the same mileage as a 1.6 L piston ?

2- Does anyone know when is the 05 RX8 is due to hit the Middle East ?

Originally posted by Universal Anarc
i first thought that the 1.3 L Mazda engine would give out plenty more mileage, however i was shocked to know that it gives it less or equal at best ! can anyone help me with that ?


I was also surprised what poor gas mileage the RX-8 gets. I was mislead by all the hype over the 2003 Engine of the Year award materials my Mazda salesman gave me. In that brochure, it said:

"Mazda has dealt with the emissions issue -- it already meets the 2005 EURO 4 requirements -- and has seen to it that the same vehicle can achieve a respectable 8.3L/100km (34mpg)."

By the time I saw the window sticker (24/18mpg for my AT), I had pretty much already made up my mind. I've also flooded the car once. These are the two "big issues" for me, but the fuel issue is the really complicated one.

I currently have 4697 miles on my car in six months of driving and have purchased 261 gallons of fuel, meaning I'm getting about 18mpg. Now, if I were getting 34mpg, I would have only had to purchase 138 gallons. The average price I've paid for premium fuel is $1.862 per gallon, meaning the lost fuel mileage over what I'd optimistically hoped for has cost me 123 gallons of fuel to date, or about $229... which rounds out to about $460 per year.

That is not a very big fuel cost for me in consideration of the benefits the car gives... I really do love it, but I still wish it were easier on gas. My wife wanted a Prius (another car with a cool, different engine), and that car would likely have gotten more than 50 mpg. I figure the cost of not getting that kind of mileage, for us, is about $620/year.

The real fuel issue from my perspective is related to my memory of sitting in gas lines for hours in the mid-1970s and the taking of the U.S. embassy in Iran. Those things had a great effect on me. I hate that when fuel gets wasted it has to be bought from governments I'd rather see find another way to finance themselves. I'm also not happy about cars with high emissions -- especially having to live in a large metropolitan area -- and the 8 is no champ in the emissions department.

As I said, on balance I absolutely love this car... it's relatively comfortable for both me and my pasengers, handles beautifully and I don't think there is a better looking car going (maybe the Nissan 300ZX/T-top, but those days are gone). My hope is that Mazda keeps working on it and eventually get the 34mpg they apparently thought was possible in 2002/2003.

Out of curiosity, what does fuel cost in Beruit? I would have guessed that fuel is particularly cheap.

In any case, good luck. I think you'll enjoy the 8 if you go that way.

Originally posted by KBert
I finally found out what the code was and in fact it is PO 420. Are you telling me that this dealer doesn't know what is going on with the car as well? I have been driving with the engine light on for over a week now and they tell me that it is fine to do so. I called today and they still don't have to converter in yet. They should get it in a day or so.

What is a PCM problem and how can they fix it? Is it serious?

Thank you

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17498&perpage=15&pagenumber=26

Out of curiosity, what does fuel cost in Beruit? I would ahve guessed that fuel is particularly cheap.

well it used to be real cheap about 8-10 years ago, maybe about $4 for every 20 L, that's roughly about $ 0.75/Gallon
but since then we had a succession of politically and financially corrupt gvmts who figured that the best way to indirectly embezzle the citizen is by imposing a rise on gas prices , so it hiked up gradually over the past 10 years with negligible increases to about $16 for each 20 L, that's about $3/Gallon

Check with your local Mazda dealer. There is a service bulletin (not a recall) in which Mazda states that reflashing the rx-8's PCM stops most of the engine problems.

Originally posted by SmithtownMazda
Check with your local Mazda dealer. There is a service bulletin (not a recall) in which Mazda states that reflashing the rx-8's PCM stops most of the engine problems.

The service bulletin regarding the "M-flash" is here. (http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/01-011-04-1273d.pdf) Best print it and take it with you to the dealer, just to be sure they are aware of it... the newest one was released 4-12-04 and makes clear that all vehicles with a prior ECU version should have this done.

The TSB will be useless if the dealer has not updated the computer they will use to re-flash the car.

Seems many members have gone in for the latest update the dealer has to offer and still didn't even get the "L".

Yes, this is true, Mazda has been rather slow in anouncing this fix to the dealers. The only way the dealership I work at found out about it is surfing message boards and then contacting our district manager to find out more about it. I did it to my own 8 and saw a big difference in the idle RPMs when cold starting it.

Originally posted by SmithtownMazda
Yes, this is true, Mazda has been rather slow in anouncing this fix to the dealers. The only way the dealership I work at found out about it is surfing message boards and then contacting our district manager to find out more about it. I did it to my own 8 and saw a big difference in the idle RPMs when cold starting it.

mazda has been slow in announcing this fix? they updated the TSB nearly a month ago and it was all over this board the next day. yes mazda did not call every dealer and say "hey look at this particular tsb and pcm update because it helps with flooding". but what does happen is minor WDS updates come out every week and major updates come out each month. these updates are for the whole ford family so may not be just "mazda" updates but it is the service centers responsibility to do the WDS updates. also Mazda issues the TSB's but they can't make everyone read them. the service people need to take responsibilty to make sure they are familiar with them. if they don't it is not Mazda's fault. instead of searching message boards perhaps your dealership should spend more time reading the TSBs and making sure the WDS is not 2 or 3 updates behind.

Dealers!!

Originally posted by zoom44
mazda has been slow in announcing this fix? they updated the TSB nearly a month ago and it was all over this board the next day. yes mazda did not call every dealer and say "hey look at this particular tsb and pcm update because it helps with flooding". but what does happen is minor WDS updates come out every week and major updates come out each month. these updates are for the whole ford family so may not be just "mazda" updates but it is the service centers responsibility to do the WDS updates. also Mazda issues the TSB's but they can't make everyone read them. the service people need to take responsibilty to make sure they are familiar with them. if they don't it is not Mazda's fault. instead of searching message boards perhaps your dealership should spend more time reading the TSBs and making sure the WDS is not 2 or 3 updates behind.

Thanks alot for this info zoom, I'm primarily a service advisor for a Mitsubishi dealership that is owned by the same person, however I fill in for the Mazda service advisors, I used the info you just gave me and asked around about why they didn't realize there was a tsb sooner. Apparently the mechanics had a hard time understanding the importance of checking the TSB's frequently. They wont anymore. Thanks again.

Do you get the TSB's from the internet?

"I really do love it, but I still wish it were easier on gas. My wife wanted a Prius (another car with a cool, different engine), and that car would likely have gotten more than 50 mpg. I figure the cost of not getting that kind of mileage, for us, is about $620/year."

For the record most of the real world driving test I have read are getting about 41 mpg which is great but of course not as good as the window stickers says and would agravate me if I bought one because 41 is not that great in a car that needs expensive batteries every 8 years if not sooner. And another reason not to get a Prius is the EMT's are afraid to touch them in an accident because of fear of getting shocked.

Yes snap-on we do use the internet for the tsb's, but our manager is the one who is supposed to print them out and put them on our tsb board in the back. Apparently he wasn't doing that as much as he should have.

I have heard of this... the mazda dealer warned me of it. I'm picking my 8 up 05/14/04 ...I'll let you guys know if I have any problems.

doesn't do much good to print them out and stick them on some board if nobody reads them.

It's a shame every employee can't get them sent directly to their own personal e-mail...

OH WAIT!!

THEY CAN!!!

Originally posted by snap-on
It's a shame every employee can't get them sent directly to their own personal e-mail...

OH WAIT!!

THEY CAN!!!

Do they know that? And do they know how? Is there a way for use RX-8 owners to get on that list :)?

1) No

2) They should

3) NO...Sorry:(

3) BECOME A MAZDA CERTIFIED MASTER TECH AND GET YOURSELF HIRED BY A DEALER SERVICE DEPT. YOU DON'T EVEN NEED THE RX-8 TO DO THAT ;)

You may need to take a pay cut.

Its hasn't been a problem for me. I always warm up my car a few minutes in the summer and at least 5 in the winter. I have done this since I have started driving at 16. 24 now. I read somewhere that it helps with the longevity of the engine.

Never flooded my FC. Have yet to flood my 8 even though I stalled it a couple of times in reverse with the ac on.

Originally posted by rx8cited
Do they know that? And do they know how? Is there a way for use RX-8 owners to get on that list :)?

Edmunds.com lists recalls, and TSB's for cars.

http://www.edmunds.com/maintenance/maintenance.do

i think you missed the point of his questions cam but if you need to find the tsb's and recalls for the rx-8 we have a link posted to them on this forum. thanks for the edmunds link tho. :)

Originally posted by Cam
Edmunds.com lists recalls, and TSB's for cars.

http://www.edmunds.com/maintenance/maintenance.do

Thanks for the edmunds info. Good to know it's there, but it's definitely not as detailed and I doubt as timely as our very own "Technical Service Bulletins (TSBs) for RX-8" thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14453) thanks primarily to the postings of forum members snap-on and tommy.

As zoom44 mentioned, you missed my point. I was jokingly asking snap-on if us RX-8 owners could directly subscribe to the Mazda Tech network and get the TSBs directly from the "horse's mouth" :D.

rx8cited

"Every morning I take the car out of the garage, then I turn it off and start it again 2-3 minutes later when I'm ready to leave for work. That's been going on for the 5-6 weeks since I bought the car and it hasn't flooded once. I don't know why people think this is a problem."


My new RX is in my garage dead as a doornail since I forgot and ran it short. You'll wish you took this thread seriously! I have learned my lesson.

I have had my RX since early Feb 2004 and love it. However, it is sitting in my gargage flooded since I pulled it in the garage and didn't let it warm up. I have learned my lesson.

Just curious, did you get the M flash and/ or does it even apply to yours (are you in the correct VIN range, is your car properly updated?)

No, it is getting the "M" Flash today. I hope it is the answer.....doubt if I tested it though. I plan on following the guidance for warmup.

M flash done..... So far so good, not sure how the performance is as I have yet to get it out on the open road. I'm anxious to compare my pre M MPG to post. I was getting 18MPG no matter what kind of driving I did.

Have 'borrowed' a Yellow AT GT for a few days from my friendly dealership..[have also test driven the GT MT, Titanium.... what a blast!]
Their top mechanic, Tony, advised me to rev the engine to 4 000 RPM before shut down, regardless of trip duration. Has anyone else heard of this?

No, can't see how that would improve flooding.... looks to me like that would lncrease the possibility to leave unspent fuel.

If I'd voted yesterday I would have been a smugly complacent NO. I've gone 7 or 8 months with no flooding problems.

But today I joined the YES group. :mad:

Like other owners have reported here, the car has been accidentally stopped when cold on occasion, and also stalled quite a few times under different conditions. I like to let any enthusiast try the car out, and people often stall it first up. One guy of 77 stalled it 3 times. All without any restart problems.

Yet today I started it, warmed for only a few seconds (it was a sunny day, but about 19c), and started to slowly reverse out of the garage. It went a few feet and conked out.

Having read of others' problems here I followed all the proper procedures. No go - not even the briefest of coughs. Stone dead.

Tomorrow the truck comes to take it to the dealers.

Apparently some dealers have been saying that Mazda claims that a recent reflash helps or fixes this problem.

So why the hell haven't Mazda Australia sent recall notices for a reflash to all owners of older models?

Miserable sods.

In 45 years of car ownership I've never had this sort of situation before.... Grrrrrr :mad:

Originally posted by apaul
...advised me to rev the engine to 4 000 RPM before shut down, regardless of trip duration. Has anyone else heard of this?

My dealer told me the same thing. The mechanic adviced me against it. when i followed the mechanic's advise i had bad starts, now i always rev it before shut down. this way the car fires up almost immediately when i crank it, it's never been better...

Originally posted by Gocsteve
No, can't see how that would improve flooding.... looks to me like that would lncrease the possibility to leave unspent fuel.

this way flooding is the last thing that can happen. excess fuel is burnt 'cause the rotor still spins while the engine is already dead. don't know if it has other implications but the spark plugs have no chance of geting wet by 'unspent' fuel 'cause there isn't any!

:)

BVD, it doesn't sound like your car flooded... if it had, it would have cranked but not started. What you're encountering is some other problem, probably electrical. Have you tried jump starting your car?

I have had my 8 since Feb and no flooding problems.

Today, I am backing out of the garage. My drive way slants so I usually just start up and give it a small nudge in reverse and let it roll from there. So I'm rolling down the driveway and it stalls on me and finished rolling into the street. Actually part driveway, part street.

I think "oh sh*t" this was the perfect scenario to flood. Cold engine, slight revs, then off without warming up.

So without touching it, I put in the clutch and turned the key. It fired right up. No hesitation, nothing. It came right back to life.

I have the L flash.

Just wanted to add a post about not flooding. I know a lot of people get hung up on it. It is something you don't always here the good stories about so i wanted to add one to the mix. Hoefully it will help some of the new owners relax a little and realize the car does NOT instantly flood all the time.

greese

Guys-I have had this occur on three occasions after driving to destination and the car sitting for 1 1/2-2 hrs. Upon attempting to restart need to crank 7-10 seconds to start and stutters few seconds before running smoothly. I will address when I go into dealer for AC Amp replacement but maybe I should not wait?

What do you think?

Thanks,

Bob

Doctor BOB:

My car has always started on the first crank - always. If I were having the kind of hard starts you describe I would definitely see the dealer. You need to get the "M" flash anyway, so might as well do it sooner rather than later.

Get some plugs while you're at it Dr. Even the normal type. Sounds like yours may be at fault.

Dear MEGAREDS and CERAMICSEAL,

Thanks for helpful feedback! I will get this looked at next week.

Thanks,

Doc

Yes, yesterday. Managed to get the security ingnition lock out to work too. They towed it today. Damaged a rear wheel dragging it on to flatbed. 2500 miles on it.

Greese,

I couldn't agree more, this is a great car, and I do love it.... however, since my 8 flooded !ast month, I am very nervous about each and every stall... and I shouldn't be. When one pays $33k for wheels, worrying about whether or not it will start should be the last thing you have to think about.

Gocsteve - What were the conditions that caused your flood? AT or MT? How did you get the car started? Do you know what ECU flash you had at the time?

I had K flash........I had pulled the car out of the garage in the morning, washed the car, pulled it back in the garage and obviously didn't warm the car up enough.... probably only running for 30 sec each time. Temps were in the 60'sF. Next morning, tem around 45F, I went to start the 8, and it never took even the slightest of a hit. I tried several times over the next 4 hrs, followed the manual for flooding, and gave up. I have had the car since Feb, and had done nothing different that day than any other day. It was very sad to see it flatbedded away. I now have new hot plugs and M flash. So far so good, but I will tell you, if it happens again, I will be letting the car go. I don't have the temperment to follow such strict guidelines on operating a sports car......I like to DRIVE!

Originally posted by Gocsteve
I had K flash........I had pulled the car out of the garage in the morning, washed the car, pulled it back in the garage and obviously didn't warm the car up enough.... probably only running for 30 sec each time. Temps were in the 60'sF. Next morning, tem around 45F, I went to start the 8, and it never took even the slightest of a hit. I tried several times over the next 4 hrs, followed the manual for flooding, and gave up. I have had the car since Feb, and had done nothing different that day than any other day. It was very sad to see it flatbedded away. I now have new hot plugs and M flash. So far so good, but I will tell you, if it happens again, I will be letting the car go. I don't have the temperment to follow such strict guidelines on operating a sports car......I like to DRIVE!

Rev the sucker to 4 000 then shut down. Works like a charm.

apaul, nice pic!

Seriously, does the rev'ing to 4K work? The dealer told me to do that on most drives. But have only done it myself when i felt the engine wan't warm.

Do you turn the key off while it is at 4K, or after it has returned to idle?

While it's revving down from 4K. The continued spinning of the rotors while no fuel is being injected gets the remaining fuel out of the chamber.

Originally posted by loco4rx8
While it's revving down from 4K. ............

As in push the accelerator 'til the tach gets to 4k, take your foot completely off the accelerator, then turn off the ignition while tach's going down - but before it gets to idle?

rx8cited

Originally posted by rx8cited
As in push the accelerator 'til the tach gets to 4k, take your foot completely off the accelerator, then turn off the ignition while tach's going down - but before it gets to idle?

rx8cited
That's the theory. I've heard lots of people on this board say to do it, but never anything from Mazda in the materials. I think if it were that simple, they'd recommend it officially. I can't see how it would hurt the car, but its just as easy for me to bring the car up to temperature, so that's what I do.

By the way, Gocsteve, your flood seems classic. That's the way it seems to always happen - in one's own driveway with the car sitting idle a few hours in cool weather after being driven cold only a few feet. I don't recall anyone ever saying they stalled the car at an intersection and couldn't get it started. Many people insist that their 8s won't flood. Personally, I think if you are careless (pre-M flash, anyway), it will only be a matter of time - particularly with the AT. Hopefully, with the M flash and the new plugs, you'll not have it happen again, even if you should happen to forget the "short-trip procedure."

I totally agree about the flatbed - watching your car get put on one of those things is enough to boil the blood. When that gets followed up by bad service, I go into ape mode. I was so pissed off as to how I was treated by my local dealer and Mazda after the flood that I sent a photo of the car on the flatbed along with my letter of complaint and posted the photo here. I also had it on display at my desk at work for a while. For me, the most important issue is whether they cheerfully repair the car and explain that they'll keep covering it should it happen again -- or whether they slide by suggesting that it was your fault and that they might not do it again under the warranty if you show up again. I know others feel that they should not have to be even that patient after having spent so much money on the car, but after Mazda NA explained that they were going to cover the problem cheerfully and completely, I've decided to give them a chance to figure it out. The 2004 is the first model year. The M reflash may be the fix - I'm hoping.

Originally posted by rx8cited
As in push the accelerator 'til the tach gets to 4k, take your foot completely off the accelerator, then turn off the ignition while tach's going down - but before it gets to idle?

rx8cited

Yeah, I only do this if I really have to shut the car down cold for some reason -- like if I'm driving co-workers to lunch a mile down the road, and it's winter, and I don't want to sit in the car waiting for it to warm up while they eat. :)

What I do is rev it to 4k for 3 or 4 seconds, take my foot off the pedal, and then immediately kill the ignition.

I've never flooded it, and it does seem to start quicker the next time after doing this.

Don't rev it much past 4k!!!!!!!
Once you hit 3750 the #2 primary intake ports open and add in more fuel/air which is the exact opposite of what you are trying to achieve. This applies to both the AT and MT.
See here or search for SDAIS Sequential Dynamic Air Iduction System.

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24649&highlight=sdais

I only rev mine to about 3k to 3.5k for a few seconds only if the car is cold, other than that you should not have to do it.

Hopefully the latest flashes take care of all of this nonsense and we can stop talking about all these ridiculous techniques.

Megareds,

I know now what I did, and won't "intentionally" do it again. But it is hard to spend the $$$$ on this machine, and then have to think about how to drive it. I am with you, I hope M is the fix, and we can put these quirky things we're talking about behind us and DRIVE!!!

As for my experience..... I bought the car from an Internet salesman at a dealership some 120 miles from my home. I called the local dealer (who, by the way, couldn't get within $3000 of the deal I did) they were happy to schedule me 2 days later the car was flatbedded there, and a day later it was fixed at no cost....GREAT service, with no mention of any costs if I did it again. I did get a paper left in my driver seat on how to avoid a flood, nothing new there.

Guys-just had M flash done. Is it still advisable and/or necessary to run until warm before shutting down when moving car in and out of garage to prevent flood?

Thank You,

Doc

Guys-just had M flash done. Is it still advisable and/or necessary to run until warm before shutting down when moving car in and out of garage to prevent flood?

Thank You,

Doc

no

Msrecant's post below answers Doctor Bob's question...

Originally posted by Doctor Bob
Guys-just had M flash done. Is it still advisable and/or necessary to run until warm before shutting down when moving car in and out of garage to prevent flood?


I believe the TSB states the M flash reduces the possibility of a "crank no start" but does not eliminate it.

Both the original and revised "Crank No Start" TSBs clearly state that after the repair procedure (which includes the M flash) the customer should be provided a copy of the last page which states it is important to warm up the engine before shutting it off.

Thanks for the education.

Doctor Bob

buy a Z it dosent flood.

But a Z is not an 8...

I am new here too. I love the RX, would have gotten one if I needed any more room than what I do. My buddys got one, and let me tell you the handling on that thing is beautiful. And the engine is so smooth.

Your right the Z is not an 8.

And the 8 is not a Z.

But they are both awesome cars.

Hei guys,
my car is in Jakarta, indonesia is a type S with dual coolers, sunroof, xenon as std. usually i just start my engine for abt a few after the rpm comes down on the A/C no problem. you just have to go slow like 1st gr 2000rpm then change to 2nd gear. as the engine heats up easy on the pedal still until u have gone 3-4k then :cool: . No problem. for those during winter i think u have to start the engine idle to ard 1/4 temp gauge then u will be able to go but still easy on the gas pedal thats my rule. cos i have stayed in the US for 4.5 yrs i know wats like and currently im in melbourne in AUstralia working.

I've never flooded the engine, and I've let a couple of friends drive the car a few times... each time, telling them that the clutch releases low off the floor... One stalled it 3 times within 2 minutes without flooding. But I WAS cringing, hoping it wouldn't flood.

I know it has probably been beaten to death on this site, but I have a question that I hope someone can answer quickly. Tried the search and couldn't really find what I was looking for. I just picked up an RX-8 today. Asked the salesman if it had the M flash done to it, and he didn't have any idea what I was talking about. So, my question is, if I picked up my RX-8 today, should it have the M flash on it already? Is there a way I can find out what software it is currently running? Thanks for any help.

The M flash should be on it. If you take it to one of the service people and ask them to check what software version the PCM has, they can tell you in a few minutes. That is the sure-fire way, and it should be covered under warranty.

After reading numerous reports... and after flooding the engine once (which required the trip to the dealer), I would suggest to everybody that you let your RX-8 warm up before shutting it off, otherwise you might be pissed off one day. Generally you won't have a problem, but once in a while you might get bit... and when you do... it will definately be when you need the car the most.
I can assure you that all these people with flooded engines are not making up stories.
Peter

While some have experienced flooding, this has afflicted very few considering how many RX8s are on the road today. In addition, Mazda has taken steps to alleviate the issue with the reflash. :)

With a "Z" you have other issues like trashed tires after 10,000 miles, among others. :confused: :eek:

After reading numerous reports... and after flooding the engine once (which required the trip to the dealer), I would suggest to everybody that you let your RX-8 warm up before shutting it off, otherwise you might be pissed off one day. Generally you won't have a problem, but once in a while you might get bit... and when you do... it will definately be when you need the car the most.
I can assure you that all these people with flooded engines are not making up stories.
Peter

Good point. I am a firm believer that everyone should get the M Flash. However, both the M Flash TSB and the recent MSP-04 letter that Mazda sent still warn that you should let your car warm up, even after the M Flash is installed. IMHO the dramatic drop in reports of flooding in this thread attests to the fact that Mazda really improved things with the M Flash, but I don't hear anyone at Mazda claiming it to be a 100% fix and, with a little warm up, you can avoid being part of that small percentage of people who still might get nailed.

Our RX8 dealer (San Jose) says that the recent SW change did not improve the flooding so they are not doing it anymore. New SW change is in the works, but they didn't have a date. This is a big annoyance because we've already experienced the flooding problem once and it was very painful (took about a day to get it back running again, with Mazda Roadside svc helping as well).
I hope they fix this flooding problem soon.
Luwom

Sorry guys for my previous post, I just read the sticky "flooding" message and saw that the M-Flash upgrade for flooding was discontinued last week:
Sadly, it's true ........ http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=45330
Luwom

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=635132&postcount=58

the flash is now good to go.

I'm a newbie here, although I've been lurking for ~6 mos. Add me to the list of those who have flooded their car.

Now that I've read this thread and other related ones, I had all the symptoms of the "classic" flooding issue. I've had hard starts in warmer weather after not letting the car warm up, but over the Thanksgiving weekend, I moved the car twice, then let it sit for two days. Monday morning -- flooded. Finally got it running last night after reading all the tips here: boosted the battery off of my wife's SUV, cranked it for about 10-12 repeats of ~10 sec. each w/the gas pedal to the floor. Huge clouds of smoke, flashing CEL once I finally took it out and drove it (thoroughly warmed up) above 6000 rpm. Seems to be fine today.

I've got 11,500 miles on the car, and have already had an oil change, and I do have the M-flash, for those that are keeping track of such details.

Thanks to everyone here who posted tips on getting the car running again!

Joliver,
you say you've had an oil change? I know the owner's manual doesn't insist on it but you should really step up your frequency. It's just plain healthy, especially now that you've flooded and potentially diluted your oil a bit with gasolene.
Just my humble opinion.
By the way, I sell these engines for a living. If you want to fatten my wallet un-necessarilly (or be inconvenienced), don't heed my warning.

hey sorry if this is the wrong forum

I was wondering if anyone has taken there car in for the flooding recall yet should I do it immediately or whats the deal with that.

Well that depends on when you bought it. If it was built after March 2004 it should already have the new PCM reflash. If not I would take in into a dealer and have it done.

But hold on, I think they have put a hold on the recall because of the CEL problem. Me personally, I took my car in the week I got the notice in the mail and haven't had the problem, but I'm also inclined to call my dealer to make sure they don't need to flash it again with some other update.

i have a question , im kinda confussed,,,, flooding the engine, is this only with the standard 8 or both standard and automatic rx8?

i have a question , im kinda confussed,,,, flooding the engine, is this only with the standard 8 or both standard and automatic rx8?
Yes, you can flood the standard and high output engine. The newer engine computer updates should lessen the occurance but you should still take precautions.

i have a question , im kinda confussed,,,, flooding the engine, is this only with the standard 8 or both standard and automatic rx8?

It is my view, from reading these posts for over a year now, that the less-common standard transmission (AT), like mine, floods far more than the manual transmission (MT). That's not to say that the MTs are immune, just that the AT people should be particularly careful to warm their cars up as the weather turns cold and wet. The tinkering with the computer Mazda has done this past year is all well and good, but I'm betting there will be plenty of stories this winter of people who have trouble.

BTW, developing the habit of always looking at the temp gauge and confirming that the needle is centered before shutting off the engine is almost a magic bullet. It will protect you the great majority of the time, the only exception being then those times when someone else must borrow or move the car.

I have to change my vote on this one. After 13 months and 22k I finally managed to flood it. I had parked it for a few weeks and the battery dropped down quite a bit. As soon as I realized it was too low to start I stopped and charged it back to full but the damage was done. It was flooded, but good. I followed "Procedure A" of the TSB to no avail and was going to pull the plugs when I noticed the TSB covers plug repalcement so I'm leaving the repair to the dealer :) When I get it back I'll be investing is a better battery and a storage charger.

If your car is a manual, all you had to do was push start it or in the worst case scenario pull it down the street behind another car. No need for the hassle and downtime of a trailer ride to the dealer. Every flooded rotary will start this way.

Probably true but the trip on the flat bed was harmless and since it's under warranty this was my best option.

No flooding so far in about 8 months. Since the M flash I've gotten somewhat complacent about moving the car, etc. Note to self - warm it up anyway.

Add me to the list. I had to move my car late last night and it was very cold, so I didn't feel like letting it run too long. I knew i shouldn't have shut it off so quickly, but I thought to myslef, "This is the year 2004 and I just paid 33,000 dollars for this car, it won't flood." Sure enough, I get up the next morning and it doesn't start. I tried all the old tricks, but it won't start. My 1998 RX7 had the same problem. All i needed was a slight decline and I could push start it just using my foot to move the car. This problem became more frequent as the mileage went up. Now the tow truck is on the way. I am hoping this guy will help me push start it, so I dont have to waste time with the dealership. Anyway, I knew this could still be a problem when buying the car, but my love for the rotary won over.

where are you located JoePaterno?

where are you located JoePaterno?

I think he is still at State College, PA, aka, "Happy Valley," right? :D

Well if he is in the states-I doubt he has a 1998 RX7 :rolleyes: I question the validity of this post.

I just got my new RX-8 last week so I haven't had a chance to find the circuit on this car yet. On my RX-7 whenever it flooded (and it did regularly), I would pull the connectors off the fuel pump and crank the engine over to blow the fuel out of the rotors, (crank for 10 seconds or so) reconnect the circuit and it started every time:D. Perhaps someone in the Tech Garage is familiar with this process for the RX-8?

On my RX-7 whenever it flooded (and it did regularly), I would pull the connectors off the fuel pump and crank the engine over to blow the fuel out of the rotors, (crank for 10 seconds or so) reconnect the circuit and it started every time

Good news, more good news, even more good news, yet even more good news, and then some bad news, I think.

The good news: The RX-8 doesn't seem to flood "regularly," unless you start it when the air is cold and moist, you shut it down soon after starting it and you leave it sit for a while -- in those conditions, particularly if you've got an AT, it's prone to flooding. I'm not saying it won't flood in other circumstances, just that flooding when people do these things is totally predictable. The M flash may help... we'll soon see how much as the weather gets cold.

The other good news: No need to pull anything mechanical on the car when it floods. The "emergency start procedure" is to start the car with the accelerator pedal fully depressed, as soon as you suspect that the car could be flooded. The pedal in that position is supposed to cut off the fuel and allow whatever is in the chamber to spin/burn out. Crank it for a few seconds, wait, see if it starts, if not crank it again. (I'm not sure whether you should just keep the pedal to the floor until it starts or alternate between pedal down for a bit, then try a normal start. I've always been confused about that.)

Even more good news: Although Mazda doesn't seem to recommend it, MT owners can "pop the clutch" to reliably start a flooded car. You need to have the car roll down an incline, or someone to push the car, or someway to tow it. The last option can be dangerous if not done carefully. Once the car starts, it takes a bit, but full recovery seems typical.

Yet even more good news: Although some dealers have been slow to acknowledge it, like my dealer, Mazda seems to have taken the position that it will cover towing and flood repairs under the four-year warranty as a covered incident, even though it could be argued that the flood was due to owner mistake and not a defect. Whether it is a "defect" in design is a hot topic. I don't think so, but some people feel strongly otherwise.

The bad news: The emergency start procedure doesn't work reliably, and AT owners have no other options short of fairly complicated repair work, as explained in this TSB (http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/01-011-04-1273d.pdf), which is generally not possible in the cold, wet place the car happened to die. Re-charging the batter is possible, or putting in a more powerful one in may work.

Well if he is in the states-I doubt he has a 1998 RX7 :rolleyes: I question the validity of this post.

I meant 1988