Hi guys,

I currently own a 97 BMW M3, which I bought certified-pre-owned three years ago. Now that the Bimmer has 82k on it and is out of warranty, I'm ready to trade into something else. I don't want to pay 50k for a new M3, and the new model is so heavy that I am not sure I'd like it anyway. I'm happy with my experience, but the 330i is too soft for me.

My car search is pretty much down to another CPO M3, a new G35, or an RX-8.

I test drove an RX-8 last week and loved the car. Due to traffic conditions I wasnt able to test the engine flat out, which leads to one of my questions:

Obviously the Renesis isn't going to have the low end grunt of an M3. I don't expect it. I am curious if the top-end power will make up for that. I am familiar with the feel of high-power, low-torque cars, and might like it as long as the overall acceleration - particularly top-end passing power - is close.

Has anyone here owned an M3? Curious for opinions. It's hard to compare 0-60 numbers... What I am looking for is passing performance. Say I dropped the RX-8 into 2nd gear at 45 and zinged passed someone on an uphill grade....

Anyone care to ramble?

Thanks!
--Joe M

All I can say is that the RX-8 has a really, really flat torque curve over about 4.5k. Get it in the right gear and it seems to just smoothly accelerate past almost anything (5k RPM to 9k RPM).

If you expect low end grunt below that you'll be disappointed.

I traded my M3 in on my RX-8. I was seriously considering the '04 M3 but in the end I decided that the $26,000 was too much for the additional hp. I got almost everything else I wanted. I purchased a Ti grey GT with nav and a rear spoiler. I get more questions and looks with my RX-8 than I ever did with my M3. The car handles great and I like the instrument layout.

You are right about the power. The car has it and it will pass without a problem and has no problem climbing hills (I live on one). The RX-8 will not have the on the line power you're used to but it is not a huge difference either. In the beginning the car needs to be broken in and while you are doing that you will notice that it has less power but as you get closer to 2k miles you will feel it open up.

In the corners you will feel confident.

I love driving my RX-8 and I am glad I made the switch. Don't get me wrong I did love my M3 as well but the RX-8 has a level of exotic which I felt the M3 lacked. It is fast in its own right and you will not be too disappointed with the hp.

Very cool - that's exactly what I wanted to know. I'd gladly have traded low end torque for post-6000rpm power even in the M3, so it sounds like I will like the RX-8. Thanks!

I second everything above. You really need to take a longer test drive and get a better sense of whether you like its performance and acceleration at higher engine speeds. For the amount you're about to invest, it's worth doing more research.

BTW, I came from a 250 HP turbo Miata (2,340 pounds) that was able to stay dead even from a dead stop with a 315 HP 2003 M Roadster (on a track, of course). Even so, I am quite happy with the 8's acceleration, although for $500 the Canzoomer mod (read about it in the tech section) could make it even better.

The main acceleration problem I have with the 8 is precisely what CZ's mod is expected to improve. That is, freeway passing in higher gears.

Say you are going 65 MPH in the left lane behind some a**hole who feels it is his job to regulate traffic. But there is another righteous citizen in the middle lane up ahead coming up fairly quickly. A 6 to 5 downshift in the 8 does NOT give you adequate acceleration to make your intended move with authority (imo).

The 6 to 4 shift is tricky, hard on the gearbox, and if done incorrectly, can be embarrassing and dangerous (if you hit 2nd as I have done).

This is the main improvement I personally hope to achieve with CZ's mod, and one that he has personally mentioned as a target.

Isn't anyone else frustrated with this? I have never driven an M3, but I'll bet you will notice this as one of the major differences. In almost every other scenario with the RX-8 (with the exception of off-the-line grunt), the car performs like a dream.

Thats why ya do a 6 to 3 shift my friend. 65MPH is only 6500RPM in 3rd. Your now driving a car that hits 90 in third gear comfortably. Use that high end RPM power! Plus at 65 your RIGHT in the sweet spot for 3rd to floor it and feel the powah.

Every time I do that on the highway I freak everybody out. It's always something like "Yuri! You just put it in thiiii... woah!"

:p :p

Get those hornets buzzing, eh? Sounds like fun. I'm just not used to this car yet. The 5-4 shift in the Miata was great at high speeds, but the 6-5 in the RX is worthless.

Originally posted by Speed-ER doc
The 6 to 4 shift is tricky, hard on the gearbox, and if done incorrectly, can be embarrassing and dangerous (if you hit 2nd as I have done).

Also, it might help to remember that the shifter in the 8 is detented in the center slot... 3rd & 4th gear. If you wanna go from 6th to 4th (although I'd never be doing 65 mph way up in 6th gear), just pop the shifter from 6th up into nuetral and pull back... don't pull it over to the left unless you want 1st or 2nd. And push it to the right if you want 5th & 6th. For 3rd & 4th, put no pressure left or right... just push it up to nuetral & push up for 3rd or pull back for 4th. The 8 will pretty much nail the correct gear you want every time like this, in my experience.

I've had the 8 for 8 weeks now and am quite happy with it.
But I must admit that if I could afford it, I would have gone for the M3. I think that Marranco could be disappointed with the RX-8's lack of torque, having owned an M3.
The M3 is in a league of its own and should not be compared with the RX-8.

Originally posted by hotpot
The M3 is in a league of its own and should not be compared with the RX-8.

Theres a UK owner who sild his E46M3 and bought an RX-8 thats totaly happy with the change.

The M3 will have more torque, more power, but its a heavy beast too.

While I did not move from a M3, I had a 2000 Audi S4 which is quite similar in terms of performance, torque, handling as a M3 albeit with less steeriing feel due to the quattro (but waht grip!). While my 8 doesnt have the "push you back in teh seat feel of the twin turbo in the S$ it is quite quick....the biggest difference is in handling/feel...there is a little chicane by be which I would only be comfortable taking the S4 through at 45MPH...I have had the 8 through at over 50 and could probably do 55 with out a problem

Thanks everyone!

I just did a second test drive, and it didn't help. LOVE the rotary - was reasonably happy even with the low end torque (totally comfortable in traffic)... But it wasn't enough just yet to put the car over the top.

1/2" more headroom (big issue for me in the 8, and at 6'1" I never considered myself freakishly tall), 25 more horses, or anything other than a Bose stereo might have put it over the top... Unfortunately I am still undecided. :(

Dude:

My Sport model has 1.5" more headroom: No sun roof. It's also about 200 pounds (!!!!) lighter than the GT, and a bit cheaper. It's like going on a date with Oprah, then leaving her at the restaurant holding the bill.

Also, my base, non-Bose stereo is MUCH easier to upgrade. And the cloth seats are less flashy (or less pretty depending upon how you look at them) and very well executed.

Just FWIW.

Yeah, I'm 6-1 with the same problem in the moonroof cars.

So I'm going for a Sport (no roof)... or maybe even a GT ordered in Canada (no roof).

I have the good fortune of having a best friend who owns a '99 M3, and a brother who owns an '02 M3. I have put well over 150 miles on the E36 and have gotten about a half hour behind the wheel of the E46. I have also test driven an RX-8 and wound it to 7k rpm. Money no object between the three, I would probably choose the E36. It has a balance of power, lightness, and refinement that for me, is almost perfect. That being said, the new M3 is ridiculously fast, and doesn't feel heavy, regardless of its weight. You also have to take into account build quality. When you're buying an M3, it's not just the engine that you're buying. You're buying a quality suspension, transmission, interior etc. I don't have much experience driving the 8 (I hope to own one once I get out of college, however), but in my opinion, you would probably miss the M3 if you got rid of it. Note that I have nothing against the 8. If I had the money I would purchase one, but I would be more content with the E36, it's a great car.

Originally posted by velociti
I would be more content with the E36, it's a great car.

I agree. It's an amazing car. However, the minute it's out of warranty and something goes wrong ....

As always it boils down to personal preference. I mean, we all buy what we like.

I can honestly say that for myself, even if my budget was 10K more, I still woulda gotten the 8.

GT ordered in Canada? Do they have different option combinations? Makes me wonder also about emissions standards and possibly higher engine output.

Aren't there a LOT of guys in this car's theoretical target market who are about 6'1" or taller? Seems like even a difference in the design of the seats would help. The manual seats seem to give me 1" more headroom - but of course you can't get manual seat adjustments with leather :(

Just saw Velociti's post - that's exactly my dilemma. The E46 isn't as racy or light as the E36, and even tho mine is seven years old it's still an awesome car. But in the past year, I've replaced the cat and both window motors (both just before my warranty ran out), and now I have dead power door locks. It's a tough car and I doubt I will ever have issues with the drivetrain or suspension, but it's starting to age.

I wish it was easier to find a replacement car! I love the 8, it just feels like it needs a bit more to be a suitable replacement. And I can't find any concrete info on whether there will really be a Mazdaspeed version.

As for Canada, the GT package there offers the moonroof as a *separate* option.

Why the heck can't they do that here!??!

So, you can get all the GT goodies without a moonroof.

As for the rest of the stuff, it's the same. All of it. (except DRL's) It's a piece of cake to bring back to the US.

Originally posted by marranca
Just saw Velociti's post - that's exactly my dilemma. The E46 isn't as racy or light as the E36, and even tho mine is seven years old it's still an awesome car. But in the past year, I've replaced the cat and both window motors (both just before my warranty ran out), and now I have dead power door locks. It's a tough car and I doubt I will ever have issues with the drivetrain or suspension, but it's starting to age.

I wish it was easier to find a replacement car! I love the 8, it just feels like it needs a bit more to be a suitable replacement. And I can't find any concrete info on whether there will really be a Mazdaspeed version.

...and I'm struggling to decide whetherthe Rx8 offers anything more than my 325i!
Having driven an E46 M3 on a race track at a BMW drivers day I can't agree it's not as racy or light as an E36 M3. In these conditions the E46 M3 is simply spectacular. Ferocious acceleration and incredible handling poise. The thing can be driven absolutely sideways at ridiculous angles yet still retain an astounding feeling of balance and poise. I think the Rx8 is a wonderfully fluid and fun car but anyone who seriously reckons it can outgun and outdrive the E46 M3 is kidding themselves IMHO...

I own a rx8 and i'm not doubting it but you should check out the 2004 G35 coupe before you make your mind up.

Hey marranca, I'm in the same boat you're in. I have a '98 M3/4 with 75k on it. The car will be out of CPO warranty in April. The E36 is such a good all-around car that its a tough, tough act to follow. However, with 75k on the dial, I think its time for something new. The car's been bullet-proof, but I don't relish changing out the clutch, putting in new shocks and refreshing all the rubber in the suspension; which the car will need in order to stay in tip top shape.

A new M3 is out of the question since my wife and I had a baby last year. A 330Ci is the next choice, but loaded up is over 40k and quite frankly isn't involving a drive as the 8.

Sorry to hear the 8 isn't going to do it for you. It is currently at the top of my list. Have you tried the G35 Coupe 6MT?


///M-Spec

I'll be hanging onto my '99 M3 Convertible until they release an RX-8 Convertible. In the meantime I've ordered a 3.5" CAI, Euro 3.5" HFM, and will add exhaust and shocks/springs. The M has 73K miles on the ticker and I've never replaced anything on it. It's as solid as any car I've ever owned ... hopefully that won't change any time soon.

Coming fro a E36 M, RX8 isn't right for you, I would sugget the G35c or the Z, they are much better choices for you than the RX8.

You like the M because it's got the power, the look, and the handling, plus the prestige name.

You like the RX8 because its look and handling.

Therefore you should pick G35 or Z because they got the look, the power and the handling. Don't criticize the weight alone, its the power to weight ratio that counts. G35 is wider so it will feel more stable but of course, they both aren't going to be as quick as the RX8 in the corners, but hey, how often do you really take turns at 50mph?

Get the G35c or the Z

Other than that I suggest you wait, for the next Supra, what about the new S4?

If money is no issue, just get the RX8 for now and if you don't like it switch car after a year or two.

Just my 2 cents and merry christmas to all,

Lucino

Joe,

First, I would not trade the 97 M3 with 80K plus miles in at a dealer. You will not get much money out of the car. I think you should try to sell it on your own. Given that you presently drive an M3, I would also look at an EVO or STI along with the other recommendations made by other posters. I do not own a RX8 but I have driven one. Performance wise, I prefer my WRX although the RX8 is a more attractive vehicle.

This has got to be the most honest thread in this entire forum. It is goos to see some reasonably objective thought for a change. I, too, think you should check out the G35 coupe. While I love my 8, I'm not so sure it will satisfy an M3 owner. The M3 simply is in a different class and the price reflects it. That's not to say the 8 is less. It is perhaps more fun, more rewarding to drive since you aren't as concerned about destroying a 50k car. And when the warranty goes, the M3 will prove outrageously expensive to maintain/repair. I've never had an M3 (weeping here) but had two BMWs (535is, 325e) and a host of Benzes. They all go before the warranty goes!

My last car was a bmw and if you are driving an m3 you'll probably miss the power. I've always wanted an M3 but can't afford it at this time. So i looked in to other cars. I didn't consider the the 350 cause i wanted some back seats. The G35 coupe was nice, but then I decided to try out a rotary. When i test drove the 8 it was so smooth that I wanted it. While I enjoy the 8 and having fun with it won't have the take off like a car with more torque. Handling is great on the 8 and as the years to come when mazda squeezes more hp out the 8 it's going to be awesome.

Really you should test drive a 330i, G35, and RX-8 as close together in time as you can. They all have good and bad points, and only you can decide what is more important to you.

I find the RX-8 nimble to drive and enjoy it. My previous car was a BMW540i. I enjoy the handling but miss the torque of the V8.

Originally posted by marranca
Hi guys,

I currently own a 97 BMW M3, which I bought certified-pre-owned three years ago. Now that the Bimmer has 82k on it and is out of warranty, I'm ready to trade into something else. I don't want to pay 50k for a new M3, and the new model is so heavy that I am not sure I'd like it anyway. I'm happy with my experience, but the 330i is too soft for me.

My car search is pretty much down to another CPO M3, a new G35, or an RX-8.

I test drove an RX-8 last week and loved the car. Due to traffic conditions I wasnt able to test the engine flat out, which leads to one of my questions:

Obviously the Renesis isn't going to have the low end grunt of an M3. I don't expect it. I am curious if the top-end power will make up for that. I am familiar with the feel of high-power, low-torque cars, and might like it as long as the overall acceleration - particularly top-end passing power - is close.

Has anyone here owned an M3? Curious for opinions. It's hard to compare 0-60 numbers... What I am looking for is passing performance. Say I dropped the RX-8 into 2nd gear at 45 and zinged passed someone on an uphill grade....

Anyone care to ramble?

Thanks!
--Joe M

I have an RX8 and a G35, both are great cars. I would take either of those over the Pre-owned M3.

Originally posted by rotarymagic
I have an RX8 and a G35, both are great cars. I would take either of those over the Pre-owned M3.

Okay, if you had a choice to keep only one car, which one would you take?

Originally posted by Lucino
Okay, if you had a choice to keep only one car, which one would you take?

I also have an RX-8 6 speed and a G35 automatic sedan. If I could only keep one, it would be the G35. My wife does not drive a manual, and I need a bigger trunk for my two kids if we all go on a trip.

If I was chosing one to drive for fun, it would be the RX-8. It all comes down to what you need and what you value in a car.

Drive em both a couple timesand you decide.I bought the 8 over the g35c for 2 reasons.4 doors and the 35 interior was way to old looking for my taste being 30.The 35 is a great comuter for a 40 on up.

Originally posted by alamike
Joe,

First, I would not trade the 97 M3 with 80K plus miles in at a dealer. You will not get much money out of the car. I think you should try to sell it on your own. Given that you presently drive an M3, I would also look at an EVO or STI along with the other recommendations made by other posters. I do not own a RX8 but I have driven one. Performance wise, I prefer my WRX although the RX8 is a more attractive vehicle.

In my opinion the WRX or EVO are in a different class. They do not offer any of the luxuries that the 8 or the M3 offer. They are pure power sports cars with true 4 doors. Even the 350Z can't compete with the 8 or M3 luxury wise.

I would check out the G35 Coupe if you are coming from an M3 but honestly, you will be downgrading whether you choose to go with the G35 coupe or the RX-8. Money wise, both give you similar experiences and will keep the money in your wallet. Remember, you truly do get what you pay for. Just ask yourself if you want to pay that much on a car.

Wow - quite a few responses since I last checked the forum - thanks for the replies!

I have test driven the G35 Coupe, and it was fun, but felt WAY too heavy overall. For a vehicle its size, I think the G is at least 300lbs overweight. That is also my issue with the E46 3-series. (The 330 is also too soft - clearly more of a luxury bias). The Z is almost as heavy, lacks back seats, and as far as I am concerned lacks a trunk too.

I have thought of an Evo, and like the hard core edge it offers, but it will be hard to get over thinking of it as a gussied up economy car.

I can't get any solid facts on whether/when there will be a Mazdaspeed RX-8, but I am starting to think that might be more of a car for me. The RX-8 only needs a little more of an edge, IMHO.

Of course, I could test drive an RX-8 again... Salesman will probably start getting frustrated with me, but it is a 30k purchase...

Since you're having trouble choosing, my suggestion is that you hang on to your M3 for a couple more years and get the M4 when it comes out. This is gonna be one awesome piece of meat (4+ litre V8). The price tag would be on a different level too, hence the 2 year wait, enough time to save up maybe?

The M4 would probably be heavier than the current M3, however. Even if they make an aluminum V8 for it, unlike the iron block they're using for the I6, it would still be fairly massive in comparison to the E36 that he already owns. I doubt that would be the kind of replacement he is looking for, though I may be wrong. I'd go with the MS '8. By the time I get out of college, I hope to be able to afford one of them lightly used...

Go to a M3 forum and see what they say. hehe, but I say it's worth saving the money unless you got money to blow.

Originally posted by velociti
The M4 would probably be heavier than the current M3, however. Even if they make an aluminum V8 for it, unlike the iron block they're using for the I6, it would still be fairly massive in comparison to the E36 that he already owns. I doubt that would be the kind of replacement he is looking for, though I may be wrong. I'd go with the MS '8. By the time I get out of college, I hope to be able to afford one of them lightly used...

These assumptions make sense, since cars on the whole have been getting heavier, but I think the new M3/M4 will hold the line at about 3400lbs. BMW has been taking weight very seriously in the last few years.

The new E60 5-Series is larger in most dimensions, but is actually lighter by a few pounds than the old 5. They saved a lot of weight by making the car aluminium from the firewall forward.

Also the 4.9 liter V8 from the M5 is only about ~50 lbs. heavier than the 3.25 I6 in the current M3. An all aluminium 4.0 liter V8 would probably end up being lighter than the old 6... especially if BMW M decides to add valvetronic to the heads (gets rid of *8* throttle bodies and plumbing)

So if the E90 (codename for new 3/4 series) follows the trend of the new E60, they should weigh about the same as the E46 cars.

Incidently, the Europe-only M3 CSL weighs ~3170 lbs.


///M-Spec