the start of the answers to some premix questions...

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132111&stc=1&d=1232180833

beers :beer:

ok,

baby steps.. this is you fuel filter.. but not in the tank..

see the sock.. looks shiny and clean! really not so much.. denny chime in here...

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132156&d=1232264822
he took most of this pump apart.. at a track weekend in ga.. i had to dump in a used pump that i just happened to have with me. to get through the event.

denny. thanks for my fun weekend..



beers :beer:

ok,

premix photos here. what is wrong with these pics?

this is a used pump. that was clean and fine that was put in early november.. this is after i started doing the shake and fill at half tank.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132605&stc=1&d=1232942382

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132606&stc=1&d=1232942382

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132607&stc=1&d=1232942382

so far the pump with this bad sock is running fine with the new sock.. as it should. the test is that once the pump fails and over heats the damage is done.. i have ~ 340 miles on this pump. so far gas mileage is up 2 mpg. idle is very smooth again.. :)

btw, the light source for pic #2 is the sun.. flow matters!


beers :beer:

how i carry the stuff i premix with.. you guys asked..


http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132851&stc=1&d=1233264320


beers :beer:

post whoring my own thread, ftw!

wow,

this post whoring stuff is hot..

beers :beer:

you posting slut you.. looks like a hunk of metal to me. Hey, maybe you can use it to hold a fuel pump

you posting slut you.. looks like a hunk of metal to me. Hey, maybe you can use it to hold a fuel pump

guess how much that bit of metal costs????

fucking silly.. but i am here to help..

and,

THANKS TO JASON AT ONLINEMAZDAPARTS.COM.

sorry shameless plug that has a bit to do with the fuel pump story..

beers :beer:

You are going to kill that sprint thing with it?

You are going to kill that sprint thing with it?

nope,

my phone rocks.. 30 bucks a month.. and can teather. duh..

beers :beer:

guess how much that bit of metal costs????

fucking silly.. but i am here to help..

and,

THANKS TO JASON AT ONLINEMAZDAPARTS.COM.

sorry shameless plug that has a bit to do with the fuel pump story..

beers :beer:

i'll wait for your pics and updates :)

Does anyone have an extra yellow writing pad?
I seemed to have misplaced mine. :uhh:

WTF? I've been waiting for this thread.

wow i got nowhere with this...i saw swoopes name..what a bad idea

Look like a tool to remove the fuel pump retaining ring??

Yep...............think so!
But then again.....I kinda cheated, in a strange sorta way.

^haha that's what i'm gonna go with too!!!

Let me get it out of the way...I told you so :)

Well get on with it Swoope! We don't have all day to sit around and wit for you to pull that beeatch out. Pics, we demand pics.

Preferably of hot girls in bikinis doing the work. I like it when they point to the work as it's being done. Like Barkers Beauties from the "Price is Right".

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l274/summerkiss7777/BobBarker.jpg

If I'm following this correctly (swoope's one liners always confound me) sounds like a good case for a SOHN going in AFTER the fuel tank.

pre-mixing bad, imagine that.

Let me get it out of the way...I told you so :)

OMG! Ur so SMART!!!

bump.

the insides are on the out side..

beers :beer:

Look like a tool to remove the fuel pump retaining ring??

yep,

and silly stupid money.. and thankyou onlinemazdaparts..

tell jason i said hi and i want to hump you leg..

let me know if you need it. :)

beers :beer:

wtf? o.0

Let me get it out of the way...I told you so :)

k.

told who what? ;)


beers :beer:

Well get on with it Swoope! We don't have all day to sit around and wit for you to pull that beeatch out. Pics, we demand pics.

Preferably of hot girls in bikinis doing the work. I like it when they point to the work as it's being done. Like Barkers Beauties from the "Price is Right".

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l274/summerkiss7777/BobBarker.jpg

really,

we are in swoope time.. it might happen, and when it does i will likely be late at night..

you got mo photos. so the adventure continues..

btw, comment on your photos. hot hot hot stuff!

beers :beer:

OMG! Ur so SMART!!!

art is hot..

beers :beer:

i feel like such an idiot right now. thanks soope

i feel like such an idiot right now. thanks soope

where is the w?

btw,

it lives! frankenpump. it is in and runs.

will post more photos after the daytona races.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132411&stc=1&d=1232653199

beers :beer:

for those pooping on this thread.

see post #3

or click here..

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=2821387&postcount=3

beers :beer:

wow, thats awesome swoop.... i have to admit though this perplexes me. i dont keep up to much with the fuel pump and premix stuff, but from what i've seen this is evidence that contradicts everything else i've seen...

yea,

but lots of different stuff is going on.. next weekend i am going to talk and show smart people and ask questions about this stuff..

but i blame a lot of it on not premixing the premix. but more so in the early days 3 years ago when i tried lots of different stuff.

i got my hands on some synthetic 2 stoke virgin whale oil! :)

my big comment on this is dont dump and pump.. ;)

the common thread with those that have the issue during track weekends is premix..

beers :beer:

debating on pulling out my fuel pump to see what 10,000~ miles of premix did to it..

so what about pumping in a little gas in the tank, than dump in the premix, then continue to fill the rest of the tank with gas...?

I readily admit that I am a bit confused here, as I have a hard time following swoope's posts. Sorry!

as opposed to filling up completely and then dumping the premix?

depending on what you are using for premix... some mix better than others..

i have mentioned this before. pick a container, at least one liter.. add oil, then fill with gas, shake.. when you are at half a tank add it..

then fill the rest of the way..

my fail is you win.

is that clear enough! and i do answer pm. so if you are shy ask a question..

i think really the problem is using not the best syn 2 stroke oil. btw, i payed 15 bucks for one. and as i poured it in i was thinking.. that stuff looks thick.. :)

beers :beer:

How about buying decent gas without a bunch of crap in it ;)

I still stand by my theory that you guys get crappy gas down there

I premix..used multiple types...and have never had problems related to plugged up socks.......I do get all the other pump problems related to sloshing around though :)

you'd think there is something burnable that we could add to our tanks to clear that crap out and allow it to "burn through".

sorry swoope, I get what your saying. I am using MMO at the moment....any thoughts on that? It seems pretty thin...wouldn't think it would clog anything.

This may sound naive, but are we really implying that:
1) adding premix to a gallon or so of gas at the bottom of the tank and then filling up 30 seconds later, is significantly worse than 2) adding premix to a half a tank and then filling up 30 seconds later?

My understanding was that premix oil mixes thoroughly with fuel. (Someone here, I think rotarygod, once posted about a jar of pre-mixed fuel, and it seemed stable) If this is the case, then I can't see why it would cause any pump filter problems. If it's NOT the case, then I can't see why it would matter much when you add the premix.

Does this logic sound reasonable to anyone else?

How about buying decent gas without a bunch of crap in it ;)

I still stand by my theory that you guys get crappy gas down there

I premix..used multiple types...and have never had problems related to plugged up socks.......I do get all the other pump problems related to sloshing around though :)

that was the first question i had for olddragger.. but, we have a couple of guys that have never mixed. and have lots of track miles on pump and no problems..

all the way down to the yellow light.. were as us dump and fill guys not so much..

btw, when i left daytona last night it was 68 deg. :lol:

beers :beer:

i'd be weary to stick the gas pump into a container not made for it.. any sort of static electricity would not be good..

that and i'm sure the gas station staff will have something to say..

that was the first question i had for olddragger.. but, we have a couple of guys that have never mixed. and have lots of track miles on pump and no problems..

all the way down to the yellow light.. were as us dump and fill guys not so much..

btw, when i left daytona last night it was 68 deg. :lol:

beers :beer:


Ya...but how fast are they ;) I never had a problem till the sticky wide tires and a lot of practice

sorry swoope, I get what your saying. I am using MMO at the moment....any thoughts on that? It seems pretty thin...wouldn't think it would clog anything.

the smart person i have talked to about the mixing qualitys is using mmo right now.

right now i am not mixing anything other than fp+.

and that might be the way i am going. i am going to do pump pulls and sock checks. that sounds dirty! :lol:

i had hoped to pull both sides of the tank and wipe everything down, but i missed the house with no fuel by .25 of a mile. yes i know my car well. with the angle of where the car ran dry it took 1 gal to get it going again.

so the full tank wipe has not happened..

beers :beer;

Ya...but how fast are they ;) I never had a problem till the sticky wide tires and a lot of practice

tt second runner up.. on r tires.

but very, very smooth..

does not have the problem with his car.. but did it when driving my car..

btw, he is from atlanta, same area as the bad fuel... btw, could you post a pic of your fuel sock? ;)

beers :beer:

depending on what you are using for premix... Some mix better than others.
:beer:

So what kind of premix are you using swoope?

So what kind of premix are you using swoope?

wow,

over the last ~ 70k miles i have used lots of stuff.. if you had read you would have known that..

that is the point to some extent. what you use and how your use it..

beers :beer:

i'd be weary to stick the gas pump into a container not made for it.. any sort of static electricity would not be good..

that and i'm sure the gas station staff will have something to say..

I think mythbusters did a thing on that... pretty sure it took a huge amount of static before it was of any concern...

you'd think there is something burnable that we could add to our tanks to clear that crap out and allow it to "burn through".

depends . Are you planning a long life or a short one ? :lol:

depends . Are you planning a long life or a short one ? :lol:

thanks for that, you have eased my down under angst! :lol:

btw, figure out your hot side yet? :)

and i saw scott dixon yesterday.. he looked good, and said hi. and something about reading the owners manual? :uhh:

daytona did not suck.

beers :beer:

damn - i meant to get you to tell him about those driving tips i had for him .

How did he go ?

damn - i meant to get you to tell him about those driving tips i had for him .

How did he go ?

i gave him what you told me. i think they were second..

but he looked good! :)

beers :beer:

This may sound naive, but are we really implying that:
1) adding premix to a gallon or so of gas at the bottom of the tank and then filling up 30 seconds later, is significantly worse than 2) adding premix to a half a tank and then filling up 30 seconds later?

My understanding was that premix oil mixes thoroughly with fuel. (Someone here, I think rotarygod, once posted about a jar of pre-mixed fuel, and it seemed stable) If this is the case, then I can't see why it would cause any pump filter problems. If it's NOT the case, then I can't see why it would matter much when you add the premix.

Does this logic sound reasonable to anyone else?
Sounds reasonable to me, but what do I know?

Swoope, how many people have had similar problems that you are attributing to the manner that premix is added to the tank?

i'd be weary to stick the gas pump into a container not made for it.. any sort of static electricity would not be good..

that and i'm sure the gas station staff will have something to say..

its illegal also. but IMO you wont have any issues doing...

I think mythbusters did a thing on that... pretty sure it took a huge amount of static before it was of any concern...

i think i saw that as well. this is something i researched for a project i did while working in Fire Prevention at my last department after having 5 fuel spills and 2 resulting in minor(luckily) fires within a 7 week period. The law dictates no use of cell phones, unapproved containers etc... In reality its physically impossible for the use of a cell phone to ignite fuel sold at gas stations. Now if you're playing with nitrometh etc or have a cell phone malfunction that shorts the battery or something, then you could be toast.
Static... while entirely possible to ignite fuel via static discharge, you've got better odds of being struck by lightening. even if you were trying. i used to have figures that demonstrated the measure of discharge required to ignite the "perfect condition" and its insanely unlikely. That said i still dont think its a good idea to go asking for it by climbing in and out of your car during fueling, which is the easiest way to build strong static charges

I am thinking like swoope has mentioned that a large factor is the specific premix used. I also think gas quality has more of an effect if you are premixing. My issue with the whole deal is i am unwilling to go to such inconvenient lengths to ensure proper lube. I'll be using the Sohn as soon as i go home and start boosting, but will not premix. In a perfect world, when the time comes for my current motor to go, i will replace it with the new one and put 2 stroke through those pumps(hopefully the A/C industry aka RS ave figured that out for me by then)

I love the franken pump!!
Pics dont lie.
Our pump is not a sucker--its a pusher. Any resistance to the limited suction ability is not good. The sock is a SMALL sized 30 mic sock. (just a school class demo--take it off wet it and try to suck air through it:)) we need a bigger 70 mic sock. premix DOES affect the gas and dont get me started on sediment, ethanol and water.
Currently i use atf and kerosene (smart ones will know what I mean!) as premix.
Over time not only the sock but the filter itself can become problematic. Mostly on the track, but for some also on the road resulting in AA being called.
The 09 fuel pump assembley NOW has a replaceable fuel filter, replaced fpr and venturi set up(resulting in a larger void space in the can and a resigned sock. They dont change things without a reason, it appears interchangable and i will know for sure 2/1/09.
Swoop--ingenious on the sock cut out and I will show you some more stuff this w/e.
Wouldnt you know that fuel pressure is not the problem--its fuel volumne. This makes it more difficult to pinpoint. But a jar and a jumper will suffice---do NOT try this at home if you dont know what you are doing!
olddragger

I love the franken pump!!
Pics dont lie.

Currently i use atf and kerosene (smart ones will know what I mean!) as premix.
you still have to explain the transmission angle!
Wouldnt you know that fuel pressure is not the problem--its fuel volumne. This makes it more difficult to pinpoint. But a jar and a jumper will suffice---do NOT try this at home if you dont know what you are doing!ding ding ding. btw, i have a brand new pump in case this used one fails in may.
olddragger

beers :beer:

Swoope,

If you bring your tool with you to Mazmart would it be easy to pull my pump and look at the sock? That would be a pump with 28,000 miles using idemitsu, at a ratio of under 4oz per tank.

What are some symptoms of issues with fuel delivery?

Swoope,

If you bring your tool with you to Mazmart would it be easy to pull my pump and look at the sock? That would be a pump with 28,000 miles using idemitsu, at a ratio of under 4oz per tank.

trust me. the tool and a new pump go with me everywhere!! :)

but sure we can do that.. maybe we could have a fuel pump show and tell! :lol:

just try to show up with little gas in the tank..

beers :beer:

sorry swoope, I get what your saying. I am using MMO at the moment....any thoughts on that? It seems pretty thin...wouldn't think it would clog anything.

I use MMO. I can only relate what I've actually seen when mixing fuel/oil for my weed-whacker :). I usually just mix right in the weed-whacker's tank, pour in gas and leave a little room for the oil. I've used a few different types, from the el-cheapo stuff, to Mobil racing 4T, 5W30 when I had nothing else, and more recently, MMO.

I've noticed the MMO mixes far more rapidly and easily; just one shake seems to be enough or even just letting it sit a couple of minutes. Whereas, the other stuff usually settled to the bottom and took some vigorous shaking to distribute. MMO seems to do just fine as premix; the revs are a bit higher. Of course I have no idea what the true wear rate is on the weedwhacker engine. I will say that the Mobil stuff had the least smoke at startup of the WW of anything I've tried.

In terms of what's happening in the bottom of a car's tank, I'm just guessing but I can see how some portion the thicker stuff might settle, and then act as a binder to the inevitable bits of dirt, and you end up with big greasy globs instead of fine-grained contaminants. Those globs attract other globs, etc... Maybe also some reaction with any droplets of water that might be there?

Swoope,

If you bring your tool with you to Mazmart would it be easy to pull my pump and look at the sock? That would be a pump with 28,000 miles using idemitsu, at a ratio of under 4oz per tank.

...also using idemitsu and very interested in seeing that sock.

I love the franken pump!!
Pics dont lie.
Our pump is not a sucker--its a pusher. Any resistance to the limited suction ability is not good. The sock is a SMALL sized 30 mic sock. (just a school class demo--take it off wet it and try to suck air through it:)) we need a bigger 70 mic sock. premix DOES affect the gas and dont get me started on sediment, ethanol and water.
Currently i use atf and kerosene (smart ones will know what I mean!) as premix.
Over time not only the sock but the filter itself can become problematic. Mostly on the track, but for some also on the road resulting in AA being called.
The 09 fuel pump assembley NOW has a replaceable fuel filter, replaced fpr and venturi set up(resulting in a larger void space in the can and a resigned sock. They dont change things without a reason, it appears interchangable and i will know for sure 2/1/09.
Swoop--ingenious on the sock cut out and I will show you some more stuff this w/e.
Wouldnt you know that fuel pressure is not the problem--its fuel volumne. This makes it more difficult to pinpoint. But a jar and a jumper will suffice---do NOT try this at home if you dont know what you are doing!
olddraggerI have no trouble realizing that changes to the fuel pump were a good idea, but I think the real culprit is more likely sediment from cheap gas and dirty gas tanks. I still have a problem imagining that 4-5 oz of premix is actually the real problem. Most of the time I fill up, there's probably 2-3 gallons of gas still left in the 16 gallon tank before I immediately fill up with another 13-14 gallons. All this before the fuel pump is ever activated.

But, like I say, what the hell do I know? How many people are really believing that premix is causing this problem on their cars? Where exactly is the fuel pump located in the tank? Are people with this problem waiting until their tank is bone dry before adding premix to their crud-filled tanks? It doesn't seem to make sense to me yet.

i'm leaning towards thinking that while there may be other issues, that some forms of premix that dont blend and distribute as well may be in part sticking to any sediment in the tank and causing what would normally not get stuck in the sock to stick.

imagine a fine screen in front of a water hose, the water carries some small debris, tiny little fragments of pebbles. the pebble fragments dont make it through and do not collect in the screen either. now turn that into muddy water and all of a sudden the fragments can start to stick and build up in the screen.....

swoope, thoughts?

anyone have access to the SAE Fluidity/Miscibility charts/catergorization? SAE-J1536

premix itself is NOT the problem. The problem is the inevitable sediment that we ALL will get in the gas we buy +premix+the volume we use+the time frame. If we never had sediment we would never have the problem.
pm trans explanation to ya.
OD

premix itself is NOT the problem. The problem is the inevitable sediment that we ALL will get in the gas we buy +premix+the volume we use+the time frame. If we never had sediment we would never have the problem.
pm trans explanation to ya.
OD

understand that. but being that sediment is a FACT, do some perticular brands/grades of premix lend a hand in picking up sediment and helping it gunk in their moreso than it would w/o premix? knowing that there are different grades as far as miscibility, i would tend to think that its possible some of us are simply using a premix that does not "mix" well

awaiting PM :) thanks brettus

Currently i use atf and kerosene (smart ones will know what I mean!) as premix.

and do you have pictures for use to compare MMO to 2 stroke to nothing?

Swoope,

If you bring your tool with you to Mazmart would it be easy to pull my pump and look at the sock? That would be a pump with 28,000 miles using idemitsu, at a ratio of under 4oz per tank.

Please pm me pix when you do. Never know Hell might freez over and I might miss the thread lol

very interesting swoope!
I am curious to see expo's pump

Don't fuel pump hoses have filters on them?

no
OD

i'm leaning towards thinking that while there may be other issues, that some forms of premix that dont blend and distribute as well may be in part sticking to any sediment in the tank and causing what would normally not get stuck in the sock to stick.

imagine a fine screen in front of a water hose, the water carries some small debris, tiny little fragments of pebbles. the pebble fragments dont make it through and do not collect in the screen either. now turn that into muddy water and all of a sudden the fragments can start to stick and build up in the screen.....

swoope, thoughts?

anyone have access to the SAE Fluidity/Miscibility charts/catergorization? SAE-J1536

i really think my issue is a combo of the dump and fill method and using different types of premix years ago.. likely a bit to h20, and i do run my tank down! :(

but to look at the last sock, up close in person. it looks more like oil. clumps,, the smart people will get to see it this weekend. :lol2:

beers :beer:

does that mean i'm stupid :(
lol

So, given these pictures, do we know what premix was used?

Not being an engineer, are there tests or standards for how well various 2 stroke oils or other premix blend with gasoline?

Do we know how adhesive the gasoline/premix blend is and what viscosity fluids can flow through the fuel pump's filter sock without damaging the pump?

right now i am not mixing anything other than fp+.


fp+ FTW

:p:

does that mean i'm stupid :(
lol

not at all. that is why i am going to get smart people to look at the stuff. :) all i am doing is taking an educated guess with 75k miles of premixing.

beers :beer:

How about buying decent gas without a bunch of crap in it ;)

I still stand by my theory that you guys get crappy gas down there

I premix..used multiple types...and have never had problems related to plugged up socks.......I do get all the other pump problems related to sloshing around though :)

I wonder the same thing. It is possible to get impurities in your gasoline.
What if this was all related to a few tanks of crappy gas?

Ponder it Swoope.

i'm still betting on :
crappy gas(which is inevitable eventually)
+
premix not "mixing" well
=
sludge

at least until swoope talk to the mad scientists

i really think my issue is a combo of the dump and fill method and using different types of premix years ago.. likely a bit to h20, and i do run my tank down! :(

but to look at the last sock, up close in person. it looks more like oil. clumps,, the smart people will get to see it this weekend. :lol2:

beers :beer:

So, in lieu of the dump and fill method, do you advocate fill, dump, fill, dump, or just fill and dump?

i really think my issue is a combo of the dump and fill method and using different types of premix years ago.. likely a bit to h20, and i do run my tank down! :(
:

I'm gunna have a guess :) wrong type of premix .

I always go for the ones that state they are for premixing and not specifically for use with injection systems . Never had an issue in 60000 km . But hey i'm just a kiwi and not on the smart people list so whadoiknow

So, in lieu of the dump and fill method, do you advocate fill, dump, fill, dump, or just fill and dump?

mix in another container, fill halfway. add premixed premix. then dump.. then fill the rest of the way.

beers :beer:

i'm still betting on :
crappy gas(which is inevitable eventually)
+
premix not "mixing" well
=
sludge

at least until swoope talk to the mad scientists

this is the best answer.

beers :beer:

interesting...

swoope, how much fp+ are you premixing with now per tank (without any other premix)?

I think fp+ alone would flow very well and mix into the tank without the need to mix it in a container before putting into the tank. Idemitsu (which I mix fp+ with) is substantially thicker (not as thick as something like Lucas UCL though), but a quick shake of the mixing bottle dilutes the 2 very fast.

I'm gunna have a guess :) wrong type of premix.

Thats what I was thinking!
Did you guys see the pictures I posted last year in the premix thread of the racing beat premix container I cut in half?

Well the stuff at the botton of them containers looks like what was on StealthTL and Swoope filters.
Thats why I only use Idemitsu premix. I have cut all the quorts in half and have never NEVER found any stuff at the bottom of Idemitsu. on top of that I always keep a quort of Idemitsu premix in my trunk all year around :smoker:

interesting...

swoope, how much fp+ are you premixing with now per tank (without any other premix)?

I think fp+ alone would flow very well and mix into the tank without the need to mix it in a container before putting into the tank. Idemitsu (which I mix fp+ with) is substantially thicker (not as thick as something like Lucas UCL though), but a quick shake of the mixing bottle dilutes the 2 very fast.

fp+ ~2oz, idemitsu ~5oz. and i have been premixing the premix for the last 10k miles.

beers :beer:

i have been premixing the premix for the last 10k miles.

beers :beer:

gotta be a better way though, thats just inconvenient.

fp+ ~2oz, idemitsu ~5oz. and i have been premixing the premix for the last 10k miles.

beers :beer:

so just to be clear.. you have a mixing bottle filled with fp+ and idemitsu AND also gasoline? then you pour that bottle in half-way at the pump?

if so, that's allot of work :)

not to mention dangerous when sticking the gas nozzle into an orifice it wasn't meant to be in :dunno:

Yea some stations wong even let you add gas additives at the pumps.

Swoope, what octane are you using? 91?

New theory

gas by itself = fine . can't argue with that one

Premix + gas = works fine . Just ask the millions of 2 stroke premixers around the world . Sure they recommend you shake it up before use but that is just for even distribution .

Idemitsu + gas = works fine . Been there done that- used a case

Fp+ + gas = OK probably - that is what it was designed to do right ?

Fp+ + premix + gas = ??????????????????????????


Ten points for guessing which one has the most question marks hanging over it

swoopes not the only one to experience this though is he? or did we never get enough data(pics) to verify if any of the other socks were in the same shape?

olddragger had similar issues a long time ago and he was mixing fp and premix also ....... just sayin :)

ah... the connection is starting to make more sense then ;)

Wow. Come on expo1~!

Wow. Come on expo1~!

My car runs fine, but I am going to be at the mazmart meet and since swoope will be there with his tool ( that reads funny ) why not take a look at a pump that has used pre-mix.

Removing the fuel pump once a year or so to inspect it actually seems easier than premixing the premix to me...

Swoope,

How's Fraken Pump running? Got a few concerns with what you have done.

Couple of questions / comments:
1) What was the reasoning to cutting the hole in the reservoir?
2) How are your low fuel start ups?
3) Have you had any starvation issues? (more than normal anyways)

Reason for questions:

- The reservoir's main purpose is to hold fuel around the pump in low fuel conditions, for dynamic handling, start ups & start ups on grades.
- Cutting the hole in the bottom has now prevented the reservoir from ever filling up, it seems like a significant sized hole, bigger than the inlet flow rate of the reservoir j/p can keep up with anyway
- I would expect that you would see longer crank times during low fuel start ups & starvations issues that were fairly prevalent before may now become worse

Above is what I would be concerned with, but I have been wrong before. If it's been working fine that congrats!

Hey Howard --I think I can respond somewhat to your ?
Swoope was having track starvation with 3/4 of a tank.
his problems increased to the point that the car was stalling (fuel supply issues)during everyday driving--normal stuff.
The sock you see is an attempt to get a bigger sock on the system and to go with a 70 mic size versus our small 30 mic version.

Cncerning the can/sock itself--- i have done a couple of things
1 plastic surgery type needle (approx 70-90 mic size) punched a bunch of holes into the oem sock. in testing pase now
2- the can has a channel in it that flows per venturi fuel to the outside of the can. I closed that up so the venturi only emptys into the can.
3- the top part of the pump assembly is not far from the top lip of the can when you compress it to install. That plus the fact the assembly is almost up agaisnt the front drivers side gas tank wall does not promote fuel going into the can. If you look at the top part of the can a lot of it is actually sealed and there is not a whole lot of room for fuel to get in. SO I notched the fron lip of the can to promote that flow into it. It does help. Can volumne has increased during low tank volumne times. Example my can was approx only 1/3 full when i pulled the pump and there was approx 2 gallons of fuel in the tank itself. After i did the modifications, i rechecked --again with approx 2 gallons in there (just when warning light comes on) and the can was almost full. I had as many controls in place as casually possible.
Seems to have had a positive affect. Now where it has helped with the issues--I dont know yet.
Whats the cost on fuel pump testing?
I will be at Mazmart 1/31 and he has an 09 pump and I cant wait to see it.
olddragger

Can the 2009 fuel pump be installed in the 2004-2008 fuel tanks or would the entire fuel tank have to be swapped out? Is the 2009 fuel pump compatible with the wiring harness and PCM of the 2004-2008 models?

fp?

What is that? Franken Pump?

Didn't we discuss that MMO has a solvent in it as an ingredient, and it's not good for our seals?

I used MMO all the time on my Harley. All you have to do is look at it and it mixes.

Well I use Protek-R fuel lube but instead of adding 4oz to 12 gallons I added 2oz and I always did it when the fuel was between quarter and half full. So am I in trouble? I’ve never use any other premixes.

So, in lieu of the dump and fill method, do you advocate fill, dump, fill, dump, or just fill and dump?

End incomplete premixing forever! (requires 2 small holes added to the gas tank)

http://images1.hdpi.com/product_enlarged/DrWeil_HandMixer_9810.jpg

MMO is fine to use. No probs with seals etc.
the 09 fp appears to be interchangeable--i will know for sure the end of the month.
OD

That would be perfect if it is OD. At least a better solution than the current fp

OK, my story needs an ending also. Noticed a fuel starvation or spark starvation the other day twice. Normal driving - so not sure what is was. Have not been able to replicate it yet.

OD, I have a concern with punching holes in a screen that has a fine Micron rating. Do you feel there is any drawback to allowing larger chunks of crap to get to the injectors?
I deal with fuel systems that now are down to 2-5 mic rated and will F#@K up with a 10 mic filter.
Please don't take this wrong, I don't know the tolerance of the injectors to trash.

The sock is pre-filter...o the OEM filter is still there....it just allows bigger stuff into the pump.

I run mine without a sock.....and have not had any problems.....but I also run a 1 micron external fuel filter

Ok cool, where is the main filter? I am going senile b4 my time, all appologies to everyone for me and my mouth.

The sock is pre-filter...o the OEM filter is still there....it just allows bigger stuff into the pump.

True. The "sock" as it's been referred to here is just a pre-filter for the pump. It's only there for pump durability. It is not intended to filter fuel going to the injectors. The filter that is filtering before the injectors is inside the canister looking thing that surrounds the actual pump motor itself.



I run mine without a sock.....and have not had any problems.....but I also run a 1 micron external fuel filter

How long have you been running it like this? You may not have had problems yet but I'd keep a close eye on this.

Larger particles getting into the pumping chamber can wear down the impellor and you will eventually start to see flow performance degradation. Clearances from the impellor to pumping chamber wall will increase making the pumping chamber less efficient. This will happen over time and not very quick like. Think erosion. Not sure of this particular pump design but dirt and debris if large enough can jam the impellor completely and the pump can seize.

Also, the dirt and debris without the sock can cause the brushes and commutator of the pump motor to wear quicker than usual as well.

I wouldn't recommend running without some type of sock in place.

Main filter is in the pump canister...that's part of the problem :) And the reason you have to replace the pump to change the filter....

Filter circled in red.

See Blue :)



How long have you been running it like this? You may not have had problems yet but I'd keep a close eye on this. About 7 months...but we have really clean gas here it seems compared to some of the "Southern Gentlemen" who have pulled there pumps apart. I am well aware of the wear on the pump issue...and truely expect to be replacing the pump sooner than later


I wouldn't recommend running without some type of sock in place

I'm looking for a good compromise for a sock...so far I don't like the options. I think I may just put a screened pickup in there??



.

Very true. Some fuel is cleaner than others. For the most part US & Canada is pretty good. You'd be changing the pump every other week if you were using China fuel.

Maybe try looking into a sock / screen they use on diesel lift pumps. They are usually a much larger micron size due to the viscosity of the diesel fuel. Don't know why I didn't think of this before. That way you could use a smaller sock and not have to worry about cutting holes in reservoir to make a larger sock fit.

Good idea...I have to go to the diesel injector place Friday..I'll see what they have

Do you know the ID of the pump inlet?

I smell voided warranties lol

If you are talking about me...mine was toast a long time ago :)

And about 150 HP :lol:

so just to be clear.. you have a mixing bottle filled with fp+ and idemitsu AND also gasoline? then you pour that bottle in half-way at the pump?

if so, that's allot of work :)

no i have a one liter aquafina bottle with a wide mouth. i dump the fp+ and premix into it then add gas and shake while the tank fills to half way.. then i add the mix and fill the rest of the way..

you could do the same with an approved .5 or 1 gallon jug. i live life on the edge.. :)

beers :beer:

Yea some stations wong even let you add gas additives at the pumps.

Swoope, what octane are you using? 91?

87 in day to day life. almost always ammco. 93 or 94 on track weekends.

beers :beer:

New theory

gas by itself = fine . can't argue with that one

Premix + gas = works fine . Just ask the millions of 2 stroke premixers around the world . Sure they recommend you shake it up before use but that is just for even distribution .

Idemitsu + gas = works fine . Been there done that- used a case

Fp+ + gas = OK probably - that is what it was designed to do right ?

Fp+ + premix + gas = ??????????????????????????


Ten points for guessing which one has the most question marks hanging over it

had the same problem before using fp+. that pump died the same death as the fp+ one..

i cant stess enough that i think this is wacky stuff from years ago.. i used some belray syn 2 stroke oil that was 15 bucks a qt. because that was all i could find..

beers :beer:

Swoope,

How's Fraken Pump running? Got a few concerns with what you have done.

Couple of questions / comments:
1) What was the reasoning to cutting the hole in the reservoir?

to catch the slosh heading to the center of the tank in left hand turns!!!! ;)
2) How are your low fuel start ups?

maybe two cranks longer, yes it is noticible
3) Have you had any starvation issues? (more than normal anyways)

just finishing my first tank. long drive to atlanta tomorrow! more info then..

Reason for questions:

- The reservoir's main purpose is to hold fuel around the pump in low fuel conditions, for dynamic handling, start ups & start ups on grades.

yep, and trust me on franknpump two i am going to take the time to seal around the sock where it exits the bucket. this is just a test / learning experiment!
- Cutting the hole in the bottom has now prevented the reservoir from ever filling up, it seems like a significant sized hole, bigger than the inlet flow rate of the reservoir j/p can keep up with anywayyes, but before in certian situations you could slosh the gas out of the top of the bucket. that i am going to address also on pump 2. right now i am 25 miles past yellow. no issues. even did a full redline up to 4th.
- I would expect that you would see longer crank times during low fuel start ups & starvations issues that were fairly prevalent before may now become worse

the crank is noticeable but not that much.. so far so fun..

Above is what I would be concerned with, but I have been wrong before. If it's been working fine that congrats!

the sock i am using was a gift after i gave a smart person my idea. he said go for it. and agreed with the angle of the sock.. i dont know how much the sock is. but it cant be much.. i figure if this works, seal the sock to the bucket and change it every 10k miles. worth it to me!

beers :beer:

Hey Howard --I think I can respond somewhat to your ?
Swoope was having track starvation with 3/4 of a tank.
his problems increased to the point that the car was stalling (fuel supply issues)during everyday driving--normal stuff.
The sock you see is an attempt to get a bigger sock on the system and to go with a 70 mic size versus our small 30 mic version.

Cncerning the can/sock itself--- i have done a couple of things
1 plastic surgery type needle (approx 70-90 mic size) punched a bunch of holes into the oem sock. in testing pase now
2- the can has a channel in it that flows per venturi fuel to the outside of the can. I closed that up so the venturi only emptys into the can.
3- the top part of the pump assembly is not far from the top lip of the can when you compress it to install. That plus the fact the assembly is almost up agaisnt the front drivers side gas tank wall does not promote fuel going into the can. If you look at the top part of the can a lot of it is actually sealed and there is not a whole lot of room for fuel to get in. SO I notched the fron lip of the can to promote that flow into it. It does help. Can volumne has increased during low tank volumne times. Example my can was approx only 1/3 full when i pulled the pump and there was approx 2 gallons of fuel in the tank itself. After i did the modifications, i rechecked --again with approx 2 gallons in there (just when warning light comes on) and the can was almost full. I had as many controls in place as casually possible.
Seems to have had a positive affect. Now where it has helped with the issues--I dont know yet.
Whats the cost on fuel pump testing?
I will be at Mazmart 1/31 and he has an 09 pump and I cant wait to see it.
olddragger

actually denny the pump that i swapped in during the last track weekend was a new to me used one.

i was getting down to about .25 of a tank before i got the starvation issue.

the pump i took out was the one that was dieing at .75 full. the sock was cleaned after that weekend..

beers :beer:

to those that were wondering how i carry the premix the premix stuff.

the photo is in post 4 of this thread..

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=2821389&postcount=4

tonight i drive to atlanta. ~500 miles. will let you know how the end of the tank i have right now goes, and the one on the way to atlanta.

beers :beer:

So, I see a DIY on how to clean the sock, seems the pores can be manually cleaned with solvents. So, would a good fuel system cleaner added to the gas, be able to "rejuvenate" a gunked-up sock over a period of time?

So, I see a DIY on how to clean the sock, seems the pores can be manually cleaned with solvents. So, would a good fuel system cleaner added to the gas, be able to "rejuvenate" a gunked-up sock over a period of time?

nope.

three tanks before the photo a can of b&g 44k when into the tank.

beers :beer:

guess i am lucky to have access to plastic surgury needles hehe
mine is doing great so far---but you know it has only been at RR turn 5 that the problem exists---well last time it was turn 3 also--a little.
Swoope see ya Saturday morning--my trans is now doing fine!!
OD

guess i am lucky to have access to plastic surgury needles hehe
mine is doing great so far---but you know it has only been at RR turn 5 that the problem exists---well last time it was turn 3 also--a little.
Swoope see ya Saturday morning--my trans is now doing fine!!
OD

damn i have to carry one home now.. :(

beers :beer:

I need to inspect mine after I get back from Michigan. With the tool around $35 and the fp at $138, this is not that bad on the wallet it seems. So, most likely a two beer DIY?

that's something I'd like to do one of these days..

Why? are you guys doing what swoope is doing?

^ seconded.

Swoope has a need to do this. Unless your running pre-mix and track days. There's really no need.

I have not touched my fuel pump and have not had a single issue with it. It's been running strong since July '04 for 42k miles. But I don't run pre-mix and I don't track my 8 either. For my car, it wouldn't even be worth my time or the potential fuel smell in the car for a day or two, to remove the fuel pump just to inspect the sock.

I need to inspect mine after I get back from Michigan. With the tool around $35 and the fp at $138, this is not that bad on the wallet it seems. So, most likely a two beer DIY?

1st see above post.

If you still want to do it..... A nice broad tip flat head screwdriver and a hammer work well to. Brass is preferable (it doesn't spark). I have rarely used a service tool to change a fuel pump.

second that---i used a VERY dull old 1 1/2 inch wide chisel and a rubber hammer---works great
the ring has small holes in it that you can fill up with wd 40 also. that fills the thread area from the inside and it can help a little. I will demo at Mazmart Saturday.
OD

kevin,

cover the shipping and i will send you the proper tool.. denny the tool will be with me at mazmart.

howard, look for some pm from me on monday! :)

beers :beer:

Shipping is no problem for me - talk at you later next week. Steal me an engine while your at Paul's would 'ya?

Wheres expo1's pix?

Wheres expo1's pix?

sense of reason.. we were going to do it later in the day, and time ran out.. i gave him the tool to do when he got home and made a joke about me needing it on my way home..

well.. enough time passed. i pictured me in shorts in 40deq weather with a new fuel pump sitting in the trunk and not being able to change it..

well, i came home with the tool. i will ship it to him on monday..

btw, made it home fine. frankenpump did good.. no issues.

btw, mpg up to 22.5. clogged sock bad..

beers :beer:

how does a clogged fuel pump affect mileage?

even if the pump had to work harder to get the fuel to the engine.. wouldn't it still inject the same amount?

It will affect it cuz you have to push more on the gas just to go faster. Its like a dirty air filter.

how does a clogged fuel pump affect mileage?

even if the pump had to work harder to get the fuel to the engine.. wouldn't it still inject the same amount?

my guess it getting accurate fuel trims..

beers :beer:

Just thought I would chime in here.....

The 09 Fuel pump has a replaceable sock (well there is a part # for it now, Series 1 did not show one).

I can not confirm it but I am almost certain it is the same sock used in the Series One RX-8, the reason I say this is the 09 Part Number is LFB6-13-ZE1, which is also used on the following Mazda's..

2005 Mazda 2
2006 CX-7
2007 6 and MPS
2005 MX-5 (NC)
2009 (MY) RX-8

OD, what happen to the 09 pump you were going to look at at mazmart?

and the pump is now a denso pump wereas before they were not.
OD

ok,

today i was getting my car ready for a track day..

took out the franken pump.. and the pick up on the other side of the tank.. wiped the whole tank down.. it was almost dry. let it idle till it ran out of gas.

well. not a whole lot of stuff showed up on the microfibe towel i used. really almost nothing..

note, i have not premixed since the beginning of jan. have just been using a little fp+..

photo of both sides of the sock follow.. overall am happy, yes it cranks longer..

the truth will come out on the track next weekend.. btw, frankenpump 2.0 was also built today. it will be along for the test. as will a brand new stock pump..

so i have the above freakshow with the new sock exposed to the tank. 2.0 is another pump i have with the pump rotated a bit and the sock enclosed in the fuel bucket.

and a brand new pump..


sock photos.. the sock looks damn good..

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134423&stc=1&d=1235973130

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134424&stc=1&d=1235973130


beers :beer:

So you store your sock and shifter together? :)

Hopefully I'll be trying out an 09 pump at TGPR.

will be interesting. and good work man
OD

Am keeping an eye on this thread and have been. :eyetwitch

So you store your sock and shifter together? :)

Hopefully I'll be trying out an 09 pump at TGPR.

it was a multi project weekend.. :( and two did not get finished.

beers :beer:

what is the conclusion ?

well the 09 fuel pump worked for me down to 3 clicks from empty:) Worked well for me.
olddragger

this pump that was know to be bad. and would start to fail at 3/4 tank on the track made it to 1/2 tank before a fuel cut would happen..

but it did fine on the 9 hr drive on the way home.. so it did a lot of good.

i am going to do the same configuration with a brand new pump first weekend of may at robeling road.

beers :beer:

well I read all the pages and I came to the conclusion that the premix used by swoope was not the appropriate.

Is this wrong conclusion?

If yes can someone post what is the conclusion of the story? Not to premix?

this car had all kinds of different 2 stroke oil in it in its first years.. it has taken a while to get it out. i have done several tank cleanings, and all is going well..

the pump above was replaced with v2 which is running the same sock, but inside the bucket.

it goes to the track sat. this is the pump killing left had turn track..

and as you are searching to find the perfect premix. no real answer will be know till a controlled study happens. it is just good guesses. educated yes, but guesses.

the two that i have done that i would recommend.

mmo 6 to 8 oz street. double for track.

indemsu 4 oz with 2 oz of fp plus street. 8 oz indemsu on track.. no ft plus.

just what i have done..

beers :beer: