I have seen several threads on whether or not any snythetic oil should be used in a rotary engine. I had an early 80's RX-7 and used Mobil1 in it with no problem. I heard that you should not use synthetic oil in a rotary engine, especially the RX-8 and I e-mailed Mazda USA for an opinion below is a direct cut and paste of the e-mail response:
__________________________________________________ _
Hello Glen,

Thank you for contacting Mazda North American Operations. I appreciate the opportunity to respond to you.

In regards to your inquiry, Mazda does not suggest synthetic oil use for the RX-8. The reason for this is that the Rotary engines must burn oil in the combustion chambers. Because synthetic oil burns at a high temperature it may not fully burn in the combustion chambers causing seals to stick.
__________________________________________________ _

I hope this helps end the debate.

Take care,
Glen

Good stuff, and thanks for taking the time to email MNAO!!!

However, I still don't know why they haven't put "don't use synthetics" in the owners manual!!!

I've only changed with dino oil so far ;)

Of course the debate is not ended! Sounds like MNAO let that marketing intern answer the mail again. Has anyone ever heard of seals sticking as a result of using synthetic? Neither have I. As for synthetic burning at a higher temperature...I'll bet that's not even true, but if there was ever an engine that could burn it it would be this bloody furnace! :-)

jds

This is very interesting!

1)
This is the very first "official" response I have seen from Mazda. I too have a hard time believing that synthetic oil will not burn easily, making the seals stick.

2)
However, I find it strange if a 19 year old intern is making this stuff up on his/her own and sending emails. It just doesn't happen, I hope it doesn't happen.

3)
Lastly, as said before why didn't Mazda put this in the owner's manual? Something like "Use of synthetic oil is NOT recommended".

I guess I am as confused as ever over this issue.

I too have confronted the dealership techs about synthetics cause I ordered a box of Royal Purple synthetic under the verification of the person who sold it to me that it was okay and even reccomended. When I went for my oil change and brought forward my own oil they said no synthetic because of oil having to burn. Royal Purple claims they see no problem using synthetics and that Mazda is full of it. Oh yeah and the techs at Mazda also said that (under the wraps ofcourse) that mazda hasn't/won't spend the money for tests on synthetics with their vehicles and there for says it is not allowed.

Chris - Midnight Black GT

The only way to settle this is to wait for a year or two. There are most defenitely owners who have used synthetic in their Renesis and will share results, blown engine or nothing unusual.

The manual does say that it is normal for the engine to burn some oil which means 1) oil is entering the chambers to lubricate seals, 2) burns in the combustion chamber.

A synthetic oil 1) will lubricate better than organic oils 2) If not fully burnt in the combustion phase due its higher tolerance it will discharge in the exhaust phase.

I just don't see why synthetics are not recomended. Is this a myth or factual ?

This is an ongoing debate with rx7 owners. Most are hardcore dino oil users. If you even mention the word synthetic the'll go on a 10 minute long tirade on how horrible it is for rotary engines. However I personally know a few people who made the switch, and they haven't looked back since. One of them even had their engine rebuilt, and it was in great shape when it was disassembled.

Ha ha! Synthetic is too good?

It still does not make sense that Mazda would not stipulate this in the Owners Manual. They certainly have no desire to be replacing failed engines unnecessarily not to mention owner satisfaction. They certainly wouldn't only give out this tidbit to the 1 out of 10,000 owners who mail in an inquiry.

They did specifically prohibit synthetics in the past, from what I've read. That makes it even more unlikely that the omission from the manual is an oversight.

I speculate that whatever problem existed between the older rotaries and synthetic oil (excessive ash deposits is the most common reason I've read) had been solved by the time the API SL service specification came into place. If you look into the API service categories you'll see some of the recent ones do include lower deposits and residue in the list of improvements. In order to get the SL rating the oil has to test to the standard, regardless of whether it is synthetic or not.

grrrr....

Synthetics resist "burn-off" better then dino oils. Burn-off is oil vaporizing under intense heat.

"Burning" is a different thing. A synthetic will burn just as easily as a dino when put in a flame. For gods sakes, most synthetics is just dino oil with all the impurities ripped out, its still a hydro-carbon that will burn.

when i got my car, the salesman told me not to ever use synthetic. i'm gonna play it safe and not use it.

I agree with MAZDA Synthetic oil kills rotary engines little by little. You might not notice it until you reach 50.000 Miles or so and believe me, your engine will not reach 70.000K if you use syntetic oil.

PLEASE DONT!!!

Originally posted by s1mike22
when i got my car, the salesman told me not to ever use synthetic. i'm gonna play it safe and not use it.

BINGO

My salesman also said things like "one push of this button disables the traction control" "Don't worry, this car has 250 hp after it gets broken in, Mazda is very conservative" "Take her up to the red line and see what she'll do" "It's the same engine in the automatic as the 6 speed, just doesn't rev as high to save the tranny" and on and on... So much for what your salesman said.

Tom

To those asking why its not in the manual...its easier to put things in the maual that you should do then all the things you should NOT do. :)

Originally posted by Nugs
To those asking why its not in the manual...its easier to put things in the maual that you should do then all the things you should NOT do. :)

You lost me there, But just for the record. Automatic RX8s have been made in a way that an automatic should not be reved as hard or driven like the manual for the simple reason of fuel injection. The cars ECU in the automatic models doesnt allow the transmittion to rev as high due to the fact that the car will run lean in fuel. The fuel injector will cut off at a certain speed. That wont mean that car wont do it, it will...but belieeve me, we are going to see blown engines left and right.

You guys should learn a lot about rotary engines before upgrading, driving hard, or taking the vehicles to speeds they have not meant to go without upgrading the computer mapping and fuel injectors

This issue will remain a mystery to me till official word from Mazda comes confirming that Synthetic is good or bad for the Renesis.

BTW, since when car salemen know anything about the cars they sell. They would be the last person I would take advice from on a technical issue like this.

At this point I have no factual data on this issue, so I am going to play it safe and use organic oils till proven otherwise. This is unfortunate since I have used Mobil 1 for a few years and really believe that it is a great lubricant.

Over and out.

Originally posted by RX7FD3
I agree with MAZDA Synthetic oil kills rotary engines little by little. You might not notice it until you reach 50.000 Miles or so and believe me, your engine will not reach 70.000K if you use syntetic oil.

PLEASE DONT!!!

Where did you come up with that bulls**t? I have a 17-year -old RX-7 with 160K that has seen nothing but synthetic. I hate it when people talk out of their ass.

I see a debate is going even though my intent was to give the "official" word from Mazda USA on my e-mail question to them about the use of synthetic oil.

As I started my original post with the fact I had an 80's RX-7 and used synthetic (Mobil 1) oil in it the entire time I had it (about 50,000 miles) and never had a problem. It was later (with the 90's models) I heard you should NOT use synthetic oil in them. I also read it on the Mobil1 web site with the statement that Mazda did not recommend synthetic oil in their rotary engine (this is pre-RX-8).

I have seen the Mobil 1 commercials where it shows the synthetic oil in a frying pan next to a pan of conventional oil and the conventional oil is smoking and bubbling where the Mobile 1 is not. It does lead me to believe the Mobile 1 had a higher ignition point than conventional oil. Additionally, my Mazda service department said DO NOT use synthetic oil in the rotary engine, this is after I had received the e-mail from Mazda USA stating the same thing.

I am a HUGE fan of Mobil1 oil and have used it in every car I have had since 1977. But I will take a wait and see attitude with my RX-8, there must be some reason Mazda doesn't want it to be used.

For those who are going to use it please keep us posted on how it works, I really would like to use it but am erroring on the side of caution for now.

Take care,
Glen

Originally posted by RX7FD3
You lost me there, But just for the record. Automatic RX8s have been made in a way that an automatic should not be reved as hard or driven like the manual for the simple reason of fuel injection. The cars ECU in the automatic models doesnt allow the transmittion to rev as high due to the fact that the car will run lean in fuel. The fuel injector will cut off at a certain speed. That wont mean that car wont do it, it will...but belieeve me, we are going to see blown engines left and right.

You guys should learn a lot about rotary engines before upgrading, driving hard, or taking the vehicles to speeds they have not meant to go without upgrading the computer mapping and fuel injectors

Well, you certainly lost any credibility you might have had right there! You should follow your own advice - you obviously know very little about the RX-8, and are spouting heresay and gibberish as if it were fact.

Here's your for the record - the 4 speed automatic trans in the RX-8 can not take the high RPM of the high-power engine. It has absolutely nothing to do with fuel injection - your statement makes absolutely no sense. The transmission is rev limited to under 7500 rpm - therefore Mazda did a low-power (actually low-redline) version of the Renesis engine specifically for the auto trans. In some markets (not North America), Mazda is also selling that less-expensive low-power engine as an entry-level model in the RX-8 lineup. The differences between the engines are that the high power engine has 3 injectors per rotor instead of 2 (the third is only used at high rpm (again, which the auto trans can't handle); the high power engine also has a 3rd intake tract vs. just 2 for the low power; and the high power engine is equipped with 2 oil coolers vs. just one on the low-power auto trans cars.

In a year or two (2006 model year?), Mazda will release a 5 speed auto trans for the RX-8 that can handle the 9500 rpm rev limit of the high-power engine. They will also be releasing a 6 speed semi-manual gearbox (computer controlled clutch and shifter, a la Ferrari F1 and BMW SMG systems).

Now, what would you have us believe about synthetic oils again? Never mind, it's not like we can trust your word or opinions anymore...

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by khoney
Where did you come up with that bulls**t? I have a 17-year -old RX-7 with 160K that has seen nothing but synthetic. I hate it when people talk out of their ass.

Im not talking out of my ass, Ive owned 2 Rotary vehicles and i know what im talking about. If you have a 17 yr old RX-7 is more likely to be a 1st gen right?? Well those cars arent exposed to as much HP as the RX-8 or even a and FD...so i know what im talking about... Ive been building these things up for years.
1st gen RX-7s are known to last up to 250K miles... If you lower the amount of HP of a RX8/fd and run it at a lower amount of hp, i can assure you it will last forever as well.

and if you were to know rotaries you would know that synthetic oil requieres higher temperatures to fully burn in the combustion chambers and add to that the amount of HP an FE or FD develop you will easily cause seals to stick

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
[Gordon [/B]

You are right, i dont know FE's just yet so i dont know the internals for sure. Yet the rotary basics are the same,
I have worked on FDs and FCs for years. Apex seals and oil burining at a certain temperature in the combustion chamber. It is common sense to use something that will burn faster so the apex seals wont stick...Thats just common sense. That didnt apply to FB's because they didnt generate that much power nor were exposed to the amount of HP generates in FEs and FDs.
Thats just rotary engines 101.

Guys,

I saw this on: www.pettitracing.com

This a lubricant that is added to the fuel to reduce friction and wear on the seal.

I have never heard of these guys and this product. What do you think?


Rotary Engine Tech Tip

The rotary's oil injection system operates like this: Oil is fed via the engine oiling system (crankcase) to a variable ratio metering pump. From there, it is routed to the engine where it trickles in, partially mixing with the onrushing air-fuel mixture. Fuel-to-oil ratios of 400:1 and higher are common. With over 20 years of rotary experience, we have seen the harsh effects of insufficient lubrication on the delicate internal components of rotary engines. To add to this condition, fuel is of the unleaded variety and designed to CLEAN. High combustion temperatures produced by rotary engines break down the oil film, then today's super fuels finish the job, leaving internal components, i.e. apex seals, side seals, corner seals, etc, void of lubrication. As a result, friction and wear increase, performance and efficiency decrease. Because of this, Protek-R was developed. By adding only 4 ounces to the average fill-up of 15 gallons of fuel, the fuel-to-oil ratio is improved by 100%, bringing the ratio to 200:1 or better. Protek-R can extend rotary engine life by 30% or more, depending on your driving habits and consistency of use.

- Extends engine life
- Reduces internal friction and wear
- Less drag and more power
- Full protection against rust and corrosion
- Blends completely with fuel
- Easier starting
- Carbon free
- 100% synthetic

Look for Protek-R under Lubricants

As this debate rages on, I thought about a compromise between the two. I'll be changing my oil every 2500mi in the rx-8: Once by me and once by the dealer. If I were to make one oil change fully synthetic (Mobil1) and one with dino, would I be getting the best of both worlds? Or just risking the problems the naysayers-of-synthetic speak of reduced by 1/2? I really believe in synthetic and I have yet to see any hardcore evidence suggesting it can't be used effectively in the rx-8 or causes damage if used. I have only seen it in print in the rx-8 service manual, with no explanation as to why it shouldn't be used.

************************************************** **
I have only seen it in print in the rx-8 service manual, with no explanation as to why it shouldn't be used.
************************************************** **



Where in the manual does it say this? Thanks.

Originally posted by rxtreme
As this debate rages on, I thought about a compromise between the two. I'll be changing my oil every 2500mi in the rx-8: Once by me and once by the dealer. If I were to make one oil change fully synthetic (Mobil1) and one with dino, would I be getting the best of both worlds? Or just risking the problems the naysayers-of-synthetic speak of reduced by 1/2? I really believe in synthetic and I have yet to see any hardcore evidence suggesting it can't be used effectively in the rx-8 or causes damage if used. I have only seen it in print in the rx-8 service manual, with no explanation as to why it shouldn't be used.

please read above, it tells you right there why.

To make them easier i will put it in simple english.

Synthetic oil is great for piston engine because it burns a higher temperatures making it last longer. In rotary engines, we need oil to burn in the combustion chamber proccess, thats why we need to add more oil more often. Having said that, if you have a syntetic oil, it will take longer to burn if it does at all, causing your apex seals to stick.

There has been a debate for years about this amoung RX-7 performance shops but the basics of rotary 101 will tell you, that you need to burn oil and is a lot harder to do so with snythetic oil.....completly the opposite of piston engines! that rotary for you!

But where does it say in the manual to not use synthetic ?

Could it be in the RX-7 manual(not RX-8) or are you just making this up?

Do you guys want were Mazda states..."only non synthetic oil"....specific to the RX8?......Because I have it.

Originally posted by Gyro
Do you guys want were Mazda states..."only non sinthetic oil"....specific to the RX8?......Because I have it.

Show it because at purchase, it was not stated in the owners manual.

Actually your post of anything won't matter legally, because they ONLY spec WEIGHT and an SL api of oil in the manual and ALL docs I received with purchase.

I ran dino at my oil changes, and will continue to. I just want Mazda North American Operations to officially notify me that I can NEVER run Synth oil in my RX8 :)

Until then, the general public has the option of synthetic at independent oil change places (I personally do my own changes). How can they deny a warranty for using a proper weight SL api oil that's independently done?

OK......give me a minute to scan and post:)

RX7FD3,

This "rotary 101" shit is killing me. With all the talk about how you've been building these things for years, blah blah blah, and then to trot out that completely nonsensical statement about the automatic and fuel injection....you must have gained all that "valuable experience" working for a Mazda dealer! :D

I can't think of any other way to reconcile those two things.

jds

I think syntrix is right on.

Since Mazda does not state in the manual to specifically not use synthetic, an owner can and the warranty should cover it if a problem occurs becuase of the use synthetic.

I think we all see the advantages of synthetic oils but are looking for clarification from Mazda.

Gyro...

Where does it say that? I can't find it in my manual. Please post the page.
Thanks,
Tom

Thanks Ren ;)

I have years of dealing with Manu's and independent dealers on issues like these.

Even if someone posts something on the forum from MNAO, then it is the responsibility of MNAO to send notification to each and every owner of an RX8.

Like I said, I'm running dino, and will continue to run it for a long time.

BUT, until I see something in writing from MNAO, other people could be at risk.

They do offer synth at jiffy lube, don't they? Would suck if people went independent for their oil changes (it's their right to do so), and were denied warranty because they chose the best oil change money could buy. As long as the synth specs were the same in the owners manual!

OK, let's be fair here. It is only an ongoing debate because there are still a few idiots like me who hate the disinformation more than painful mess that ensues every time the thing breaks out again. Most of the RX-7 folks who have switched to synthetic just chuckle and say whatever and ignore the thread. I know of plenty of guys driving FDs who have used synthetic for years with no ill effects. Conversely, in nearly every single case I know of where someone spouts off about how its "killing motors" it never actually happened to them. Either a friend of a friend's motor died and it was due to synthetic, or their motor died and they're blaming synthetic because its an easy target (we all know how death-resistant the FD motors are :-(

jds

Originally posted by paradigm
This is an ongoing debate with rx7 owners. Most are hardcore dino oil users. If you even mention the word synthetic the'll go on a 10 minute long tirade on how horrible it is for rotary engines. However I personally know a few people who made the switch, and they haven't looked back since. One of them even had their engine rebuilt, and it was in great shape when it was disassembled.

I still have this posted somewhere from a night or two ago.

Check page 8-9 of the owners manual, and then read through the whole section.

NO mention of synthetic oils that meet the SL spec.

My motivation is looking for verification AND notification from Mazda ;)

But where does it say in the manual to not use synthetic ?

I was getting my oil changed at the dealership and arguing the same points on this thread to the maintenance techs. One of them went in the bay and brought out what looked like a copy of the tech highlights manual in a binder and pointed out a sentence that stated something like "Mazda does not recomend the use of sythetic oil in the rx-8." That was it. No why, no "do not use or or your valves will stick", or even anything mentioned about voided warranty issues if sythetic oil is used. As argued here, if it was that important, why wasn't it mentioned in the owners manual? An oversight?

please read above, it tells you right there why.

I've read the explanation, I've also read the counterpoints to that explanation. What I want to see is some evidence or stories of rotary engines in recent history (past 10 years with the newer synthetic oils-API SL rating) where their failure or problems can be directly related to synthetic oil use. And I mean directly related: As in "we pulled the engine apart to find ash or goo that led to engine failure that could only be related to synthetic oil use, here is the pictures and evidence".

bureau13:

I think you want the same info as me. No speculation, no prior history, no guessing, no just saying "mazda says so".

Bring on the facts and the documentation!

I've provided source references in the owners manual, AND went over all documentation presented to me at the time of purchasing.

Next thing you know, we'll all get something in the mail from mazda saying "don't use synthetics".

But what about those that have before notification?

Originally posted by bureau13
RX7FD3,

This "rotary 101" shit is killing me. With all the talk about how you've been building these things for years, blah blah blah, and then to trot out that completely nonsensical statement about the automatic and fuel injection....you must have gained all that "valuable experience" working for a Mazda dealer! :D

I can't think of any other way to reconcile those two things.

jds
I worked at Bob Moore MAZDa, and believe me, they dont know shit about rotaries! The techs went to a training class of a couple of weeks...like that is gonna help you learn everything about rotaries.

You are pretty new to this, so you shouldnt even comment! any RX-7 guy will tell you that MAZDA dealers is the last place to take an RX-7. I can assure you this from plenty of personal experience were mazda replaces engines for things that can be fixed easily.

Malloy MAZDA in VA which is well known for selling reman engines actually told me from Jim Dotty's own words " We dont know what is wrong with your car, it starts but it doesnt want to go above 35MPH"

The only reason that was taken there was because of the warranty. I laughed so hard when i turned the key 3 times and pumped on the gas to reset the computer and to get it out of limp mode...the car worked like a champed and they didnt know what to say! I just told the manager, I will never bring my car there ever again!
I can go on all night about stores like this...Any RX-7 owner will tell you the same thing, specially 3d gen RX-7s go on thier forums and stories are all over the place, i see them here..mazda changing engines for simple things

Wether you wanna believe me is up to you and for any newbi that thinks that knows everything, personally, im just trying to help those few who will be smart to take advise and for those like you who are stubborn, i personally dont care!

Its too early for you guys to see what problems you will have, and when you guys have blown engines, people like you end up blaming the RX-8 and not the stupidity of not listening to those who know by experience.

Those who listen will enjoy their cars, those who dont will just see what happens later.

OK......I'm just posting what Mazda sent me. I have no opinion on the matter. Yes I realize its not in the Manual. Here you go..

This was in a pamphlet called "Drivers Guide".

Originally posted by rxtreme
I was getting my oil changed at the dealership and arguing the same points on this thread to the maintenance techs. One of them went in the bay and brought out what looked like a copy of the tech highlights manual in a binder and pointed out a sentence that stated something like "Mazda does not recomend the use of sythetic oil in the rx-8." That was it. No why, no "do not use or or your valves will stick", or even anything mentioned about voided warranty issues if sythetic oil is used. As argued here, if it was that important, why wasn't it mentioned in the owners manual? An oversight?



I've read the explanation, I've also read the counterpoints to that explanation. What I want to see is some evidence or stories of rotary engines in recent history (past 10 years with the newer synthetic oils-API SL rating) where their failure or problems can be directly related to synthetic oil use. And I mean directly related: As in "we pulled the engine apart to find ash or goo that led to engine failure that could only be related to synthetic oil use, here is the pictures and evidence".

But the point is, the dealer can rant and say everything they want.

You have the right to get your car serviced at other places than the dealer.

The information presented to us all does not state that synthetic api SL oil in 5w-20 is NOT to be used.

If Mazda did not want synth to be used, where is my documentation saying that I can not use a particular synthetic that meets the specs in the owners manual?

If they said, "here's the pics and evidence", surely a judge would look at the only presented evidence to the consumer and rule in favor of them (without other issues or problems).

Now here's a new point:

what if you went into the dealer for service and they educated you on using only dino. Then they have your vin, and you have officially been notified


this thread is fun ;)

Hmm, where did you get this driver's guide?

I can't find it in anything the dealer gave me!

Originally posted by syntrix
Hmm, where did you get this driver's guide?

I can't find it in anything the dealer gave me!

Busted arent ya!

Here is a copy of a letter sent to a forum member directly from mazda in case you missed to read the beggining of this thread. You can email them if you like and you will get the same answer

__________________________________________________
_
Hello Glen,

Thank you for contacting Mazda North American Operations. I appreciate the opportunity to respond to you.

In regards to your inquiry, Mazda does not suggest synthetic oil use for the RX-8. The reason for this is that the Rotary engines must burn oil in the combustion chambers. Because synthetic oil burns at a high temperature it may not fully burn in the combustion chambers causing seals to stick.
__________________________________________________
_

Okay guys lets stop for just one second on the oil issue.

Number 1
The only specification is the SL desiganation via API service ratings Or ILSAC rated oils. This includes synthic oils and synthetic blends. NO WHERE in my owners manual (under maintainence 8-9) Does it even mention synthics.

Number 2
Aren't there some motorcrossers out there? I have been mixing synthetic oil in my 2 stroke for years. As do most motorcrossers especially pros. Synthetic don' t only burn but burn cleaner than regular dyno oils in that they leave LESS residue do to lack of impuritys. Ever had to clean a power valve on a 2-stroke. Well i have and in just 20 to 30 hours of riding its so gummed up with residue you could practically rebuff it clean almost on any ride no matter how lean your running your jets.

Synthetic burn like a champ, just as good if not better than organics. If you don't want to use them, then don't its not gonna hurt a thing. However there is no scientific or real world experience with oil burning engines than even remotely rules out synthetics. Are synthetics better? Probably --but the difference may not be that great. Certainly not any worse than organics.

Course that's just my opinion. I am not a profesional mechanic, but i have done my share of topends and auto overhauls growing up. For what its worth, guys you can go either way without any worry.:)

Originally posted by RX7FD3
Busted arent ya!

Here is a copy of a letter sent to a forum member directly from mazda in case you missed to read the beggining of this thread. You can email them if you like and you will get the same answer

__________________________________________________
_
Hello Glen,

Thank you for contacting Mazda North American Operations. I appreciate the opportunity to respond to you.

In regards to your inquiry, Mazda does not suggest synthetic oil use for the RX-8. The reason for this is that the Rotary engines must burn oil in the combustion chambers. Because synthetic oil burns at a high temperature it may not fully burn in the combustion chambers causing seals to stick.
__________________________________________________
_

NOT BUSTED!

How did Mazda get a hold of me?

How can we verify where the email came from?

Once again, I'm only going to run dino in my car. Until Mazda sends me direct info on this, I'm not going to believe it!

Who/where in Mazda did that come from and are they going to do a circular campain to notify all owners?

THAT"S MY POINT!

Gyro,

The text looks familiar but I never got anything like this from Mazda.

If this is from Mazda then you have the "missing document". Please tell us where you got this from. Thanks.

There is a section all about the "cold start" issue. This is a new mini guide aimed at informing the new owner that the Renesis is a unique engine that sometimes needs special consideration.

It hits on the Cold start thing

the fact that it has no spare tire

it shows a small graphic of how a rotary works. I just got it in the mail along with a Mazdaspeed brochure. My guess is that it is in response to the influx of warrany work stemming from flooding issues. It will be included in the new cars.

this little brochure has a part number

9999-92-RX8D2-04

Gyro,

Now we are getting somewhere. This is a good thing if Mazda is sending it to all existing owners and including it in all new cars. This will remove all ficticious info that is around.

One thing we need to remember is the Renesis is different from the RX-7 engine, they are both rotary engines but the Renesis is vastly redesigned and much improved. So, I typically ignore data when someone claims it works in the RX-7, no offense intended.

Gyro, how many pages is this and can you post the whole thing?
Thanks again!

Originally posted by Gyro
this little brochure has a part number

9999-92-RX8D2-04

I do not have this document in all the docs that I received.

The only thing close to it is the owners manual supplement that mentions lemon laws in a nice way and does not mention lemon laws specifically.

So who else has that document?

Was it a dealer oversight? Was it really included?

Looks like a doc, but not an owners manual supplement. And I surely never received it at purchase or later [I just went out and checked, and IF i had it, then I would surely back this up!!!!!!]

Originally posted by syntrix

Now here's a new point:

what if you went into the dealer for service and they educated you on using only dino. Then they have your vin, and you have officially been notified


this thread is fun ;)

Depends on what you mean by "officially notified". Stuff like "salesman said" or "service guy said" doesn't hold much water. I think they'd either have to get you to sign something (yeah, right) or a serious information campaign including direct mailings to every owner. But I don't think even that would buy them much in a warranty dispute. It's gotta be in the owners manual or other "official" documentation that's given to EVERY owner upon taking delivery.

That's fine, but keep in mind that the FD manual had the no synthetic prohibition from the get-go.

jds


Originally posted by RenesisPower

One thing we need to remember is the Renesis is different from the RX-7 engine, they are both rotary engines but the Renesis is vastly redesigned and much improved. So, I typically ignore data when someone claims it works in the RX-7, no offense intended.

Originally posted by RenesisPower
Gyro,

Now we are getting somewhere. This is a good thing if Mazda is sending it to all existing owners and including it in all new cars. This will remove all ficticious info that is around.

One thing we need to remember is the Renesis is different from the RX-7 engine, they are both rotary engines but the Renesis is vastly redesigned and much improved. So, I typically ignore data when someone claims it works in the RX-7, no offense intended.

Gyro, how many pages is this and can you post the whole thing?
Thanks again!

Yes, especially the name of the doc, and any related info to "owners manual supplement"!!!!

The Renesis is not the same as the engine in the RX7. There are a lot of differences, and the RX7 Owners Manual is not included in the purchase of the RX8

Originally posted by bureau13
That's fine, but keep in mind that the FD manual had the no synthetic prohibition from the get-go.

jds

But there is nowhere in the RX8 manual that states "no synthetics"

That's the point I'm making!

So I had to own an RX7 to adhere to it's guidelines for the RX8? I don't think so!!!!!!


Wow, this is a hot topic!!!!!!! Swanky!

It was not supplied with the car. I recieved my car in the very first shipment.

This just arrived on thursday. It was a brochure that the dealers just recieved. The dealer "forwarded" it to me along with a letter of their own.

It is a 4 page brochure.

Guys,

Please forgive my ignorance but what the heck is "FD"? I see it everywhere referred to third gen RX-7 but what does it stand for?

Thanks loads.

The bottom line I'm still trying to figure out is whether or not synthetic would help my rotary last longer. All the evidence about sythetics suggest it would. Unfortunately, there still seems to be some small doubts by some inconspicuous information put out by Mazda. Information that very few of us have. Man, my next oil change is approaching fast and I still don't know what to do!

Now why would you assume a funny thing like that???

jds

Originally posted by RX7FD3

You are pretty new to this, so you shouldnt even comment!

Originally posted by RenesisPower


One thing we need to remember is the Renesis is different from the RX-7 engine, they are both rotary engines but the Renesis is vastly redesigned and much improved. So, I typically ignore data when someone claims it works in the RX-7, no offense intended.



There is vary few variations like fuel injection reduced because is not a turbo engine, exhaust porting to reduce emmission eshaust combusting just to name the main ones.

If you see a picture of a split RX-8 and RX-7 engine, they are basicly the same, adding a few mods to make the engine lower emmissions isnt much of a difference.

Therefor a comparison of both engines does apply wether newbis want to bealieve it or not.

Originally posted by RenesisPower
Guys,

Please forgive my ignorance but what the heck is "FD"? I see it everywhere referred to third gen RX-7 but what does it stand for?

Thanks loads.

Here is the breakdown

FB= First gen RX-7 1979-1985
FC= Second gen RX-7 1986-1992
FD= AKA FD3S 3rd gen RX-7 1993-1995(USDM) 2001(JDM)
FE= RX-8

Originally posted by Gyro
It was not supplied with the car. I recieved my car in the very first shipment.

This just arrived on thursday. It was a brochure that the dealers just recieved. The dealer "forwarded" it to me along with a letter of their own.

It is a 4 page brochure.

So are you saying that the dealers are going to mail them, or Mazda?

I stay far away from the dealers, and if that's the only way to officially get info, then I'd be out of the loop.

Side note: I only run dino, but trying to clarify for everyone else!

I disagree. respectfully on the fact that RX-7 and RX-8 engines are the same.

The Renesis has the side ports, extra ports in the 6-speed version that open up in the upper range, an air flow pressurizer (not quite a turbocharger), the ECM itself is vastly different, etc.

RX7FD3,

Thanks for the explanation on FD.

Originally posted by RenesisPower
I disagree. respectfully on the fact that RX-7 and RX-8 engines are the same.

.....


Then why did Mazda leave it out of the RX8 manual????????

THAT'S the QUESTION!!!!!

Somebody explain this "has to burn" issue to me?

Why does the oil HAVE to BURN?

"Has to LUBRICATE" I can understand.

And, if ease-of-burning is an issue, I'm surprised they'd go with the latest API service category. A lot of the advances include increased temperature resistance. So by the "needs to burn" logic they'd be spec'ing SE oil or something.

Originally posted by RenesisPower
I disagree. respectfully on the fact that RX-7 and RX-8 engines are the same.

The Renesis has the side ports, extra ports in the 6-speed version that open up in the upper range, an air flow pressurizer (not quite a turbocharger), the ECM itself is vastly different, etc.

Those are small variation. They are both rotary engines and the basics argued in this thread is what type of oil should we use on a "rotary engine"
Wether an RX-8 or RX-7, they both have apex seals which are affected by the type of oil it is used. So for this matter or arguement, it is safe to say that is the same engine.

They both use rotor housings, rotors and apex seals...end of story

There is vary few variations like fuel injection reduced because is not a turbo engine, exhaust porting to reduce emmission eshaust combusting just to name the main ones.

If you see a picture of a split RX-8 and RX-7 engine, they are basicly the same, adding a few mods to make the engine lower emmissions isnt much of a difference.

Therefor a comparison of both engines does apply wether newbis want to bealieve it or not.

But the fact still remains many top tuners of the FD rx-7 swear by synthetic oils and have used them without any problems. I would just like to see the research that shows synthetics for rotaries are bad. I, like others here, will probably still use dino until other evidence is shown that synthetic is entirely safe. I'm actually about 99% convinced that it is and the properties of synthetics are just too good not to use in piston engines. I'm just waiting for the final convincing to make the switch.;)

Syntrix,

I am sure you agree that Mazda or any other car company can send a follow-on document with more updated data, such as the one Gyro has presented. This would e complimenting the info in the owner's manual.

As long as the info is directly from Mazda, I will go with it. I don't believe heresay, quotes from salesmen or svc. managers.

Renesispower. You are correct. The statement that the Renesis engine and a FD Engine differences are very few, is completely incorrect.

Completely revised;

Oiling system (major revision)

Intake

exhaust

Engine management computer

Rotors

cooling system

fuel delivery

all new and unique to the Renesis

what the two engines DO share is the rotor housings. 13B

the new 13B MSP was completely buit new using a tried and true rotor housing the 13B.

the differences in the two engines are great and many.

RX7FD3,

Are you a mechanic or factory service technician?

I'm confused. Didn't RX7FD3 tell us to use some sort of synthetic lubricant that is added to the fuel in this thread: http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14671

So now we can "burn" synthetic additives in our fuel, but we shouldn't use synthetic oil, which ends up mixed with the fuel in the combustion chamber?
Fuckmerunnin!

Originally posted by RX7FD3
Those are small variation. They are both rotary engines and the basics argued in this thread is what type of oil should we use on a "rotary engine"
Wether an RX-8 or RX-7, they both have apex seals which are affected by the type of oil it is used. So for this matter or arguement, it is safe to say that is the same engine.

They both use rotor housings, rotors and apex seals...end of story

Even if you think they are close, then why is the "synthetic" left out of the owners manual of the RX8?

Originally posted by Nubo
Somebody explain this "has to burn" issue to me?




Here it is. a simple explanation.

Rotary engines use small amounts of oil to lubricate internal parts, yet at the same time oil needs to be burned efficiently out of the combustion chamber to prevent carbon and residue build up.

Synthetic oil will burn but it just takes longer to burn causing the seals to stick.

Where as non-synthetic will get in there and lubricate and when it needs to be flushed, it will burn faster and more effciently out of the combustion chamber.

Petit racing has an additive called Protek-R that helps to do so wether you are using non-synthetic oil or synthetic oil. That additive lets you keep your choice of oil and still keep that rotary engine alive for many years to come.

Synthetic oil will burn but it just takes longer to burn causing the seals to stick.

When we talk about seals sticking. Are we referring to the apex seals sticking? What are the symptoms or how do we know when these seals are sticking?

Originally posted by rxtreme
When we talk about seals sticking. Are we referring to the apex seals sticking? What are the symptoms or how do we know when these seals are sticking?

Yes im talking about apex seals.

You will start noticing that you are burning more oil than usual. When starting you will notice black smoke rather than white that tends to be normal for rotary engines

You will also notice the lack of power or your car just simply wont run.

The only other seals that might go bad are o-ring coolant seals, but those usually go bad because of overheating, or with high mileage. When those go bad, You will see more white smoke than usual, car will shake a bit when starting and it might seem like the car is floaded, add coolant light will come more often and overflow tank will push water/coolant out of the coolant system due to air pockets being pushed into the system through the o-rings.

Originally posted by RX7FD3
Here it is. a simple explanation.

Rotary engines use small amounts of oil to lubricate internal parts, yet at the same time oil needs to be burned efficiently out of the combustion chamber to prevent carbon and residue build up.

Synthetic oil will burn but it just takes longer to burn causing the seals to stick.

Where as non-synthetic will get in there and lubricate and when it needs to be flushed, it will burn faster and more effciently out of the combustion chamber.

Petit racing has an additive called Protek-R that helps to do so wether you are using non-synthetic oil or synthetic oil. That additive lets you keep your choice of oil and still keep that rotary engine alive for many years to come.

Here's a simple explanation... RX8 Renesis is different than RX7.

So new clearances, rotor apex seal tolerances, etc, etc, etc. have the same to do with the RX7?


NO THEY DON'T!

So I should I just drop an early 13B in my RX8 and then agree with you? If I do that , and run Synthetic, will you pay for any non-warranty issues that arise?

I can't imagine it would be pretty to have a seal "stick" at 9K rpm.
I think it is illegal to stick seals anyway; unless you are Inuit. :-)

Originally posted by RX7FD3
Yes im talking about apex seals.

You will start noticing that you are burning more oil than usual. When starting you will notice black smoke rather than white that tends to be normal for rotary engines

You will also notice the lack of power or your car just simply wont run.

The only other seals that might go bad are o-ring coolant seals, but those usually go bad because of overheating, or with high mileage.

Hmmm, nothing but dino oil for me.

My tail pipe are EXTRA black, and my power actually seems to be down for this cold time of the year.

If there was a way to block your comments, I'd enable it!

This thread ROCKS!

Originally posted by syntrix
Here's a simple explanation... RX8 Renesis is different than RX7.

So new clearances, rotor apex seal tolerances, etc, etc, etc. have the same to do with the RX7?


NO THEY DON'T!

So I should I just drop an early 13B in my RX8 and then agree with you? If I do that , and run Synthetic, will you pay for any non-warranty issues that arise?


DUde, i dont give a fuck if you dont want to believe. bottom line is that both engines use the same apex seals and if they go bad are simply because of stupid owners who wont listen!

unfortunaly this is a process that takes time to blow your engine.. I will laugh when you blow your engine at 50K

Im done here///time will teach you guys

Maybe I'm just dumb, but wouldn't the engine not turn over (i.e locked up) if the apex seals were sticking. Unless the result of the sticking seals meant a small piece of the seal broke each time the engine turned over.

Originally posted by syntrix
So are you saying that the dealers are going to mail them, or Mazda?

I stay far away from the dealers, and if that's the only way to officially get info, then I'd be out of the loop.

Side note: I only run dino, but trying to clarify for everyone else!

I'm not saying either.

The brochures arrived from Mazda to the dealer. I'm not sure how Mazda wanted them distributed. My dealer percieved a problem after Rx8's arrived on flatbeds. These cars were flooded. My service department advisor also told me that they flooded one in the lot themselves (lots of moving cars for very short distances).

They (the dealer) responded to this issue with a letter of their own. With that letter came the Brochure I posted.

If Mazda wanted to send these directly to us....I dont see why they could not. My opinion is that they were sent to be placed in cars on the lot....like the "quick tips" guide that was tied around the stick shift. The new brochure addresses the issues now being observed. Oil consumption, and possibility of flooding.

Originally posted by RX7FD3
DUde, i dont give a fuck if you dont want to believe. bottom line is that both engines use the same apex seals and if they go bad are simply because of stupid owners who wont listen!

Im done here///time will teach you guys

What are the part numbers for each?

I think I have Monday off, I'm going to go down and actually order all of the manuals.

I'll ask the techs to look it up and cross reference... what year/model where you referring to?

If that's the case, I'll post it up and agree with you!!!

But for now:

Where in the RX8 Owner documentation does it say that you can NOT RUN SYNTHETICS?

Originally posted by rxtreme
Maybe I'm just dumb, but wouldn't the engine not turn over (i.e locked up) if the apex seals were sticking. Unless the result of the sticking seals meant a small piece of the seal broke each time the engine turned over.

If the apex seal is sticking or crackin or letting oil through, your engine will stilll work up until the point you rotors bent due to lack of lubrication, carbon build up.etc. Rotary engines often times can run with a blown apex seals, but most of the time, they seize to work.

There is plenty of times when only just 1 rotor loses compression, yet the car still runs with the other. It lacks of power but still runs.

Is hard to tell, but a compression test will tell you for sure.

Originally posted by syntrix
What are the part numbers for each?

Where in the RX8 Owner documentation does it say that you can NOT RUN SYNTHETICS?

They already showed you a scanned mailers from MAZDA and a copy of a letter sent directly from MAZDA Corp to a forum member, Why dont you email mazda just like he did.

But, im sorry to say ...You are just hard headed!

Does the engine lose compression, as well? It would make sense if the apex seal wasn't "sealing" properly.

ohh yes thank you RX7FD guy.....I almost forgot. The APEX seals on the RENESIS are new too. An all new design.....never used before. Your going to teach us......

Crap, I thought he said he was done here.

What do you think Mazda would say if you wrote them an email asking about the use of Protek-R in your fuel with the RX-8? Do that and post the results.

OK, I'll save you the trouble...they're going to tell you not to do it! Are you then going to reverse your previous statements about how great the stuff is for rotary engines? Are you going to stop using it?

jds

Originally posted by Gyro
ohh yes thank you RX7FD guy.....I almost forgot. The APEX seals on the RENESIS are new too. An all new design.....never used before. Your going to teach us......


Where did you hear that?? it uses the same 2MM MAZDA Apex seal. Same material, same thickness, same everything, the only difference is is the shape to be able to fit then renesis engine

So how is it different other than the shape?

Originally posted by RX7FD3
They already showed you a scanned mailers from MAZDA and a copy of a letter sent directly from MAZDA Corp to a forum member, Why dont you email mazda just like he did.

But, im sorry to say ...You are just hard headed!

I'm not hard headed. If Mazda did not want me to run SL 5W-30, then why did they not specify SYNTHETICS?


Sorry for repeating mysself, but MAZDA did NOT show me these DOCUMENTS.

And until I have have OFFICIAL proof to the average owner, I'm going to defend the OFFICIAL DOCUMENTATION presented to ALL owners.

Until that time comes, it's all hearseay.


Why can't you understand that?

And if we are on another page.... I'm solely running dino in my car, but just keeping it real for the people here.

Why is this so difficult with you?

OK, guys this is getting too intense for me now.

My take on this topic is that based on info from Gyro with this new manual, Mazda recommends against Synthetic oils. I look forward to getting this from Mazda.

Thanks for all the info, this was actually worthwhile! Now I am gonna watch a movie.

Good Night

C'mon, what movie could possibly rival this for entertainment???

jds

Originally posted by bureau13
What do you think Mazda would say if you wrote them an email asking about the use of Protek-R in your fuel with the RX-8? Do that and post the results.
jds

It is used in the oil not fuel...and to answer your question...
Do you think mazda will agree or approve of the use of HKS, GREDDY SIngle Turbos in RX-7s, of course they wont. When have you heard of any car maker to aprove anything being done for their cars through a third party company.

Petit Racing has been building rotary engines for years and their vehicles are alot more reliable than factory mazda's...so i would trusth them more than i would trusth mazda.

Per example mazda swears that the intercooler they used works great on RX-7s or their downpipes yet in reality, the downpipe its the worst thing an RX7, it so restriced and it produces unnesseary heat. and the Intercooler is tiny! WTF where they thinking to put such a small intercooler on a turbo Car?? So no...I dont trusth mazda

Page 111 of the RX8 design book by Yamaguchi.
The Renesis Apex seal is now two-piece, and it heith is reduced to 4.5mm from the previous 8mm.

You guys crack me up. Anyway, RX7FD3, I think the seals are different. I remember reading about it in the big book sent out to all the pre-ordered owners. The rotor design in conjunction with the seals is different, too. I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I think it does something to lessen the stress on the seal during cumbustion.

Originally posted by RenesisPower
OK, guys this is getting too intense for me now.

My take on this topic is that based on info from Gyro with this new manual, Mazda recommends against Synthetic oils. I look forward to getting this from Mazda.

Thanks for all the info, this was actually worthwhile! Now I am gonna watch a movie.

Good Night

Good night, and I'm so glad we agree!

Until we get this Mazda, what's point on arguing about it with RX7 owners that know nothing about the documentation given with a new RX8?

Show me the docs delivered personally to my name, and I'll praise the MNAO lords that have given us this wonderful car!

Have I mentioned that this thread rocks?

RX8 owners need to open the holy book of owners manuals and read passage 8-9 in that divine book provided to you by the dealer that you took delivery from!

In no way is Satan mentioned in that passage, much less the sin of synthetic oils. If oil spec defined is the bread, is the bread different from white, wheat, whole grain, sour dough, etc etc, until the lord (Mazda) officially invokes it's wrath upon us with written holy documentation that certain breads are not good for the spirit?

Originally posted by Chrisbert
Page 111 of the RX8 design book by Yamaguchi.
The Renesis Apex seal is now two-piece, and it heith is reduced to 4.5mm from the previous 8mm.

Good stuff. I need to find a source for that book!

Originally posted by rxtreme
You guys crack me up. Anyway, RX7FD3, I think the seals are different. I remember reading about it in the big book sent out to all the pre-ordered owners. The rotor design in conjunction with the seals is different, too. I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I think it does something to lessen the stress on the seal during cumbustion.

See above! The rotary lord is beconing you to look above for facts!

[heh, I'm not even religious, but this is fun!]

My dealer (Moss Robertson of Gainesville) gave me one. Decent bunch up there.

thank you chrisbert.....I'm glad I dont have to fire up the scanner again.

Also RX7FD, the side seals are completely new. apex AND side.

indeed this was an awesome thread! If it would have been in person i think some punches and kicks would have been spread.
Either way, Good night guys! It would have been fun to have ad this chat live in a chat room :)

Originally posted by Chrisbert
My dealer (Moss Robertson of Gainesville) gave me one. Decent bunch up there.

Now that's awesome! Did they give it to you in service, or when you bought the car?

I personally would love to have one in hand with the senior service tech around!

If it was service, did they go around the car (ie, write the license plate or vin down?)

OK FD...see ya. Get your Facts straight next time about the RX8 before spouting off. We try to keep things accurate as possible........:)

Exactly my point! So, next time you post about the evils of synthetic oil, please do not refer to the little addendum from Mazda which may or may not get mailed out to owners, or even to their service manual, should it ever be updated.

As for your other comment, courtesy of the Pettit Racing web site:

DIRECTIONS:
Add Protek-R to tank before adding fuel using the following formula:
STREET: Minimum of one 4-oz bottle per full 12 gallon tank
RACE: Mix at Ratio 100:1

Have you really been adding it to your oil all this time??? :D

Originally posted by RX7FD3
It is used in the oil not fuel...and to answer your question...
Do you think mazda will agree or approve of the use of HKS, GREDDY SIngle Turbos in RX-7s, of course they wont. When have you heard of any car maker to aprove anything being done for their cars through a third party company.

Petit Racing has been building rotary engines for years and their vehicles are alot more reliable than factory mazda's...so i would trusth them more than i would trusth mazda.

Per example mazda swears that the intercooler they used works great on RX-7s or their downpipes yet in reality, the downpipe its the worst thing an RX7, it so restriced and it produces unnesseary heat. and the Intercooler is tiny! WTF where they thinking to put such a small intercooler on a turbo Car?? So no...I dont trusth mazda

They gave me the book when I bought the car. Its not a service manual though. Its all about the Renesis design program, and some history of the Rotary at Mazda. Its a pretty cool book, especially for free.

syntrix, YOU crack me up! Anyway...
Per example mazda swears that the intercooler they used works great on RX-7s or their downpipes yet in reality, the downpipe its the worst thing an RX7, it so restriced and it produces unnesseary heat. and the Intercooler is tiny! WTF where they thinking to put such a small intercooler on a turbo Car?? So no...I dont trusth mazda

...If you don't trust what Mazda says about the parts they provide stock on the last gen RX-7 (and rightfully so, both of what you mentioned were totally inadequate) then why should I trust what Mazda says with the "no synthetic oil recomended" statement that, as Syntrix put it, is not mentioned in the owners manual? All the evidence points to the fact that synthetic is better in every way when compared to dino oil. I have trouble seeing otherwise without some documented proof showing the ill effects to synthetics in rotaries.

BTW, Syntrix, why wouldn't YOU use synthetic in your rx-8? You seemed convinced Mazda hasn't shown us shit proving synth is bad or even not recomended. Given the facts showing how good synth. is, why not use it?

Originally posted by bureau13
Exactly my point! So, next time you post about the evils of synthetic oil, please do not refer to the little addendum from Mazda which may or may not get mailed out to owners, or even to their service manual, should it ever be updated.

As for your other comment, courtesy of the Pettit Racing web site:

DIRECTIONS:
Add Protek-R to tank before adding fuel using the following formula:
STREET: Minimum of one 4-oz bottle per full 12 gallon tank
RACE: Mix at Ratio 100:1

Have you really been adding it to your oil all this time??? :D

Ding ding ding!

Glad you all are realizing the facts here!

Originally posted by rxtreme
syntrix, YOU crack me up! Anyway...


...If you don't trust what Mazda says about the parts they provide stock on the last gen RX-7 (and rightfully so, both of what you mentioned were totally inadequate) then why should I trust what Mazda says with the "no synthetic oil recomended" statement that, as Syntrix put it, is not mentioned in the owners manual? All the evidence points to the fact that synthetic is better in every way when compared to dino oil. I have trouble seeing otherwise without some documented proof showing the ill effects to synthetics in rotaries.

BTW, Syntrix, why wouldn't YOU use synthetic in your rx-8? You seemed convinced Mazda hasn't shown us shit proving synth is bad or even not recomended. Given the facts showing how good synth. is, why not use it?

Simple, why would I rely on speculation?

I'm running dino for a while.. part of good break in on any engine, and even after the fact.

FACT IS: Why does Mazda not specify that synth is bad in the manual?

Apparently they did this in the FD, but NOT THE RX8 MANUAL.

So what facts do you have from Mazda about not running synths that are to the owners manual spec?

I'm tired of typing that last question. I typically change at 5k miles on all cars I've owned in my 17 year history... for now it's dyno. In 5k it could by synth.

But what is MAZDA saying about SYNTH, at least OFFICALLY? If they can't say it publically to all owners, then I can run SYNTH at my next oil change!

Simple as that!

Either way, this is good fun.

I just want to see the offical statement from Mazda!!!! Or at least in some sort of documentation to the masses.

GAWD, I sound like a broken record! LOL

Originally posted by RX7FD3
Where did you hear that?? it uses the same 2MM MAZDA Apex seal. Same material, same thickness, same everything, the only difference is is the shape to be able to fit then renesis engine

So how is it different other than the shape?

:p :D syntrix et al, I'm surprised you continued to argue with this newbie - he shows up today spouting all these so-called facts, even calling US newbies, yet doesn't know anything at all about the changes to the RX-8. He's an RX-7 expert, and starts holding forth all this crap based solely on his experience with RX-7s without even bothering to learn the differences to the 8. I already told him his credibility was shot (1st page of this thread) when he claimed the hp on the auto RX-8 was lower because of the fuel injection!!! While this doofus is entertaining, he's obviously pretty ignorant, and just looks like a jerk when he shows up here wanting to be a big shot who can tell everyone what they should be doing.

Entertaining thread - but I'll still be using Castrol Syntec for oil changes between dealer changes. After all, if you listen to Mobil (ref their lawsuit a few years ago), Syntec isn't really synthetic oil anyways, since Castrol doesn't use the real synth base stock. Mobil charged that Syntec is just ultra-refined dino oil - and the judge said that's OK, they can still call it synthetic. So, RX-7 dude - if Syntec isn't really synthetic, is it now OK to use in my RX-8? :p :D

Regards,
Gordon

Entertaining is the word.

Not really arguing, just trying to find some Mazda sponsored facts for the RX8, not something in a legacy manual for an older car that does not apply to a new engine ;)

Gord, as long as it's SL 5W-20 as specified on page 8-9 of your owners manual..... hehehreheh, I already posted that, LOL LOL LOL.

Glad someone has a good attitude on this board!!!!!!!

I think I'm going to go synth to spec at the next change, until Mazda sends me a letter and pays for cost on my "synth" oil change to avoid any potential late "notification" issues.

For all we know Mazda is watching our posts right now!

Do they make 5W20 in sythetic? I see 5W30 alot, but no 5W20. I like Mobil1, if they make it, someone please post.

Originally posted by rxtreme
Do they make 5W20 in sythetic? I see 5W30 alot, but no 5W20. I like Mobil1, if they make it, someone please post.

That's a good point.... don't see anything in that weight, but a 5-30 could break down and an oil test could show 5-20!

I think that's mazda's way out... I think the only thing I recall is is a 0-20 or a 0-30. HMMMMMMM....

I'll have to call some vendors on monday, or check some sources tomorrow.

But this is a whole new can of worms about weight in summertime and doing autox/road courses!


This post get more intersting by the minute (see times about 1 or 2 pages back with responses ;) )

I figured 5W30 synth. would resist breakdown at least as good, if not better, than 5W20 dino. Someone else mentioned about 5W20 being used by Mazda for slightly better gas mileage and that 5W30 would protect just as well. Don't know if this is true, just what I heard.

5W30 is the oil specification for Oz.

Haven't read anything in RX8 docs specifying dino only, but the service guy's say "dino only" and I know them and trust them. That's frankly enough for me!

Synthetic oil is fine the flash point is only about 30 degrees F more that regular dino oil. Synthetic oil is just a little better at fighting of the point a when it goes from a liquid to a gas when it get burned. I think the reason Mazda does not want you to use synthetic oil is because it affects the seals just a little differently. In that it has a little more acid content to it. They dont want you to go between dino then synthetic then back. If you use synthetic stick with it. Or if you use dino stick with it. If Racing beat uses it. It is fine, I am going to start using Royal Purple.

Originally posted by MWG
They dont want you to go between dino then synthetic then back. If you use synthetic stick with it. Or if you use dino stick with it.

Yes, I've read this before, though not directly from Mazda and not about rotaries. The assertion was that dino oil has a tendency to make seals swell a bit. By seals we're talking about elastic seals, not apex). The point was that if you decide on synth then go with it right from 1st oil change. If you decide dino, stick with it. The worst case was running dino for a long time and switching to synth. Idea being that the engine had run with "swollen" seals and now they'd shrink.

The exception was if you were using synth and at high mileage noticed a small oil leak starting you might think about changing to dino to swell the seals a bit and stop the leak. This was about 10-15 years ago so don't know if it still applies. Seal materials or oil properties may have changed.

Originally posted by syntrix

RX8 owners need to open the holy book of owners manuals and read passage 8-9 in that divine book provided to you by the dealer that you took delivery from!

In no way is Satan mentioned in that passage, much less the sin of synthetic oils.

:D I gues that other "users guide" is like the Book of Mormon :D

I am stunned at how I started a small post of information and create a firestorm. In all that I have read I have even detected that someone had doubted the e-mail to Mazda USA that I sent.

There are certainly things that do NOT make sense to me. Why wasn't it mentioned in the owners manual NOT to use synthetic oils? Why is it mentioned in other documents (like the one that was scanned and posted)? Why did Mazda USA respond not to use synthetics, but yet not put it in the manual? Why does the service department at my Mazda dealership (Browns in Fairfax, VA) say not to use synthetics, but it is not in the manual?

For anyone who is interested, below is the ENTIRE e-mail to and from Mazda USA. As you can see I asked before my RX-8 arrived since I had heard synthetics should not be used. Maybe others should go to Mazda USA'a web site and e-mail them with not only why shouldn't synthetic oil be used, but why it isn't in the manual?

Take care,
Glen

__________________________________________________ __
Hello Glen,

Thank you for contacting Mazda North American Operations. I appreciate the opportunity to respond to you.

In regards to your inquiry, Mazda does not suggest synthetic oil use for the RX-8. The reason for this is that the Rotary engines must burn oil in the combustion chambers. Because synthetic oil burns at a high temperature it may not fully burn in the combustion chambers causing seals to stick.

I hope this answers your question. Please let me know if you need any further assistance.

Again, thank you for contacting Mazda. It has been my pleasure to assist you. If for any reason this response has not completely
satisfied you, please feel free to reply to this message. You may also contact our Customer Assistance Center toll-free at 1-800-222-5500.

Please take a moment of your time to give us your opinion about our e-mail service. Click the link below to complete a brief, online
survey.

http://www.zoomerang.com/survey.zgi?5TYD85TYCGRDSLWVFE7RJ6R9

Sincerely,

Heather Drake
Specialist, Customer Assistance E-Business




Original Message Follows:
------------------------


Form Message

Email Address: Glen220@(Deleted by me)
First Name: Glen
Last Name: (Deleted by me)
Title: Mr.
Message Zip: 20136
Subject1: Ownership & Maintenance
Subject2: Service & Maintenance
Current Mazda Owner: true
Model: RX-8
Year: 2004
Message Body: I am awaiting the arrival of an RX-8 that I have
ordered. I have used Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil in all of my cars
(including an RX-7) and have been very pleased with it. Recently I have read that you should not use a synthetic motor oil in a rotary engine, is this true?? I had planned on using Mobil 1 in my RX-8 when it arrives, unless you tell me not to. Thanks, Glen

Hi Glen,

Thanks for posting the whole email. I don't think anybody doubted YOU but the possible 19 year old intern who could be pulling this out of his/her ........

We seem to be making progress here with your email and the this new brochure from Mazda.

Originally posted by Glen220
I
Hello Glen,

Thank you for contacting Mazda North American Operations. I appreciate the opportunity to respond to you.

In regards to your inquiry, Mazda does not suggest synthetic oil use for the RX-8.

Come on, guys, when you read this, try to think like a lawyer (since it's guaranteed that a lawyer wrote it, not an engineer). What does it say? They don't suggest synthetic oil. So what?

Don't try to read between the lines, read the lines exactly - they do NOT say "do not use synthetic oil" or "the use of synthetic oil will damage your engine and void the warranty".

They also do not suggest anywhere using synthetic gear lube in the transmission or differential, so why don't we have a controversy over whether we should use synthetic gear oil? Just because Mazda doesn't suggest it, doesn't mean you can't do it. They DO require the use of API spec SL oil (that's not just a suggestion or "not suggested").

Until there's something official that actually means something, I'll stick with my API SL Castrol Syntec for my home oil changes.

So, anyone want to get into flash points and "burn temperature" discussions of 5W20 vs. 5W30, since both viscosities are recommended for the RX-8 depending on which continent you're on? ;)

Regards,
Gordon

Hey,

If there was every a universal truth regarding rotary engines and discussion boards, it is that mentioning the words "synthetic oil" in any way is sure to cause just such a firestorm!

I was (am!) one of those doubters, but this was not directed at you. I am quite sure they did in fact send that to you. I just doubt that it means anything. or is in any way based on real information or experience with rotaries and synthetic oils.

Then again, I have an FD, which specifically does say in the manual to not use synthetics, and here I am with Royal Purple 10W30 in the motor, so go figure :D

jds

Originally posted by Glen220
I am stunned at how I started a small post of information and create a firestorm. In all that I have read I have even detected that someone had doubted the e-mail to Mazda USA that I sent.

There are certainly things that do NOT make sense to me. Why wasn't it mentioned in the owners manual NOT to use synthetic oils? Why is it mentioned in other documents (like the one that was scanned and posted)? Why did Mazda USA respond not to use synthetics, but yet not put it in the manual? Why does the service department at my Mazda dealership (Browns in Fairfax, VA) say not to use synthetics, but it is not in the manual?

For anyone who is interested, below is the ENTIRE e-mail to and from Mazda USA. As you can see I asked before my RX-8 arrived since I had heard synthetics should not be used. Maybe others should go to Mazda USA'a web site and e-mail them with not only why shouldn't synthetic oil be used, but why it isn't in the manual?

Take care,
Glen

__________________________________________________ __
Hello Glen,

Thank you for contacting Mazda North American Operations. I appreciate the opportunity to respond to you.

In regards to your inquiry, Mazda does not suggest synthetic oil use for the RX-8. The reason for this is that the Rotary engines must burn oil in the combustion chambers. Because synthetic oil burns at a high temperature it may not fully burn in the combustion chambers causing seals to stick.

I hope this answers your question. Please let me know if you need any further assistance.

Again, thank you for contacting Mazda. It has been my pleasure to assist you. If for any reason this response has not completely
satisfied you, please feel free to reply to this message. You may also contact our Customer Assistance Center toll-free at 1-800-222-5500.

Please take a moment of your time to give us your opinion about our e-mail service. Click the link below to complete a brief, online
survey.

http://www.zoomerang.com/survey.zgi?5TYD85TYCGRDSLWVFE7RJ6R9

Sincerely,

Heather Drake
Specialist, Customer Assistance E-Business




Original Message Follows:
------------------------


Form Message

Email Address: Glen220@(Deleted by me)
First Name: Glen
Last Name: (Deleted by me)
Title: Mr.
Message Zip: 20136
Subject1: Ownership & Maintenance
Subject2: Service & Maintenance
Current Mazda Owner: true
Model: RX-8
Year: 2004
Message Body: I am awaiting the arrival of an RX-8 that I have
ordered. I have used Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil in all of my cars
(including an RX-7) and have been very pleased with it. Recently I have read that you should not use a synthetic motor oil in a rotary engine, is this true?? I had planned on using Mobil 1 in my RX-8 when it arrives, unless you tell me not to. Thanks, Glen

I think that's mazda's way out... I think the only thing I recall is is a 0-20 or a 0-30. HMMMMMMM....

Just came back from Wal-Mart and I guess Mobil1 0W20 is the specified replacement for cars requiring 5W20. They advertised it that way saying it is the replacement oil for newer Hondas and Fords requiring 5W20. So take that for what it is.

On another note, I e-mailed Exxon/Mobil on their Mobil1 web site and asked for an engineer to answer some of the questions we've been debating on this thread. I'm interested on what their take is on this whole issue.

There seems to be a logic flaw in Mazda USA's response.

Have you guys asked yourselves the question :

"Why is lubricant injected into the combustion chamber of the rotary engine? To burn or to lubricate?"

Surely to lubricate! Sure all oils will burn but the more resistant to burn up the better. And when it burns the cleaner it burns the better. After I figured this out I went with HKS Super RE Rotary synthetic oil.

-Ringer-

Originally posted by RX7FD3
It is used in the oil not fuel...and to answer your question...
Do you think mazda will agree or approve of the use of HKS, GREDDY SIngle Turbos in RX-7s, of course they wont. When have you heard of any car maker to aprove anything being done for their cars through a third party company.

Petit Racing has been building rotary engines for years and their vehicles are alot more reliable than factory mazda's...so i would trusth them more than i would trusth mazda.

Per example mazda swears that the intercooler they used works great on RX-7s or their downpipes yet in reality, the downpipe its the worst thing an RX7, it so restriced and it produces unnesseary heat. and the Intercooler is tiny! WTF where they thinking to put such a small intercooler on a turbo Car?? So no...I dont trusth mazda

FD owner laughs at this thread:D

You'll find people equally lined up on either side of this issue. www.racingbeat.com has been racing rotaries for longer that Pettit and they recommend Royal Purple synthetic. They are also trusted by Mazda to do the MazdaSpeed Protoge`. BTW I have no issues with my factory intercooler:p

FYI: My '93 runs Royal Purple 10w-30.

Has Mazda defined the word "synthetic"?
A lot of synthetic oils are just overly refined mineral oils and are still mineral oils. Even synthetic oils have mineral oil used as carriers for additives.

Or, has Mazda compiled a list of synthetic oils that do not burn.
Some of the MSDS's for synthetic oils shows that flash point no higher than some of the mineral oils. Is 50 degrees higher oil burning temperature gonna make a difference when combustion temperature is XXXX degrees. You find that number out.

How does one get a job as "specialist customer assistance ebusiness"? What is a specialist? Overrated phone answering customer service nobody now using a computer instead of a phone directory?

Wanna see synthetic burn! With a running hot engine, pour some all over your exhaust manifold. Enjoy the smoke show. Have a extinguisher ready if you spill too much.

OK, so where the hell is RX7FD3? He spouts some odd theories, calls me a newbie based on God only knows what (perhaps the conviction of his 18 posts at that point) "corrects" me about proper usage of Protek-R, and when he gets called on it he vanishes. C'mon, take your medicine! :D

Im done with this thread and soon ill be done with this forum.

Every single thread i post or i respond or even anyone who doesnt have an RX-8 in their sig, seems to be beaten down in this forum.

FOrums are meant to post opinions and to talk about it, to either agree or disagree. Yet it seems that RX-8 owners are coming accross as complete asswholes, Not everyone in the forum but in just about every post i see where someone taht doesnt own an RX-8 seems to be attacked.

I hate to admit it, 3 of my firiends who own RX-7s have left this forum for this reason, C'mon...

We are all part of the rotary family, lets not give that bad image. Supra owners and forum members of the supra forum are well known for that, lets not make rx-8 owners look that way too.

MSDS - Material Safety Data Sheet.

Mobil 1 0W-30 MSDS info (http://emmsds.ihspsl.com/netacgi/nph-brs.exe?d=MRUS&s1=&s2=&s3=&s4=0W-30&Sect4=OR&l=20&Sect1=IMGTXT&p=1&u=/msds/redirect2.htm&r=1&f=G&Sect3=MRUS)

Flash Point C(F): 234(453) (ASTM D-92).

Originally posted by RX7FD3
Im done with this thread and soon ill be done with this forum.

....


I hate to admit it, 3 of my firiends who own RX-7s have left this forum for this reason, C'mon...

....


Well, I keep asking one question, and it's a fact that in Owner provided docs from Mazda, it does not state anywhere that you can not use Synthetic.

Now, we appreciate your insight into the RX7 manual, and I'm sure a lot of people will use that information!

If they are leaving because of a few trolls, that's a sad thing :(

I did find this on the 'net:

The only car manufacturer that advises against use of synthetic oil is Mazda.

http://www.organicanews.com/news/article.cfm?story_id=211

You'll have to scroll down a ways, or search for "Mazda".

I still don't have any docs from Mazda that say not to use synth in the 8!!!!

Originally posted by RX7FD3
When have you heard of any car maker to aprove anything being done for their cars through a third party company.


Yes. Roush Mustangs.

And to be nit-picky, "Mazda does not suggest synthetic oil use for the RX-8"
Nor do they "suggest" you use any other type of oil, except to give you a specification and let you use anything that meets those specs. Sounds like lawyer-speak.
They warn "against" nothing, and "suggest" nothing. Leaves Mazda clear of the lawsuits.

"To answer your question, a number of years ago Mazda evaluated the
performance of synthetic oils and determined that their characteristics
may result in lower compression pressure or excess oil consumption due
to insufficient lubrication of seals and the rotor surface. In fact, the
recommendation against the use of synthetics continues to stand for
their RX rotary engine today.

Although Castrol Syntec and Syntec Blend have been used successfully in
racing RX7 vehicles with rotary engines, we cannot recommend the use of
Castrol Syntec and Syntec Blend in Mazda rotary engines, because we
respect the decision made by Mazda.

Thank you for contacting Castrol, The Technology Leader!

Castrol Consumer Relations."



I asked Castrol's Ask the expert on the use of synthetics on rotary engines...

...seems they also have lawyers for engineers:(

Originally posted by RX7FD3
Im not talking out of my ass, Ive owned 2 Rotary vehicles and i know what im talking about. If you have a 17 yr old RX-7 is more likely to be a 1st gen right?? Well those cars arent exposed to as much HP as the RX-8 or even a and FD...so i know what im talking about... Ive been building these things up for years.
1st gen RX-7s are known to last up to 250K miles... If you lower the amount of HP of a RX8/fd and run it at a lower amount of hp, i can assure you it will last forever as well.

and if you were to know rotaries you would know that synthetic oil requieres higher temperatures to fully burn in the combustion chambers and add to that the amount of HP an FE or FD develop you will easily cause seals to stick

Actually it's a 2nd gen Turbo II. And it seems to me the Renesis is one of the hottest f'ing engines around. I apparently don't know anything about rotaries, but since you seem to know everything about the Renesis, perhaps you could enlighten us and tell us how hot it gets in the combustion chamber?

Since I'm sure this is at least partially directed at me....

I don't own an RX-8, at least not yet...I own an FD! Another assumption gone awry.

Maybe you really, really do not know how your initial posts sound...go back and read them. Seriously, in every thread I've seen you post in, you make these matter-of-fact statements that are really quite outrageous, and you have zip in the way of facts to back them up. When people catch you in this, you either start talking down to everyone like you have this superior knowledge base and everyone else is ignorant, or you backtrack and say something about how you were just trying to get a nice discussion going....etc etc. Go back and re-read your "thread entry" posts...this is not a flame (not this time :D Those posts really do come off sounding VERY annoying, its not surprising to me that you're getting jumped.

jds

PS: I still want to know how long you've been putting Protek-R in your oil :D

Originally posted by RX7FD3
Im done with this thread and soon ill be done with this forum.

Every single thread i post or i respond or even anyone who doesnt have an RX-8 in their sig, seems to be beaten down in this forum.

FOrums are meant to post opinions and to talk about it, to either agree or disagree. Yet it seems that RX-8 owners are coming accross as complete asswholes, Not everyone in the forum but in just about every post i see where someone taht doesnt own an RX-8 seems to be attacked.

I hate to admit it, 3 of my firiends who own RX-7s have left this forum for this reason, C'mon...

We are all part of the rotary family, lets not give that bad image. Supra owners and forum members of the supra forum are well known for that, lets not make rx-8 owners look that way too.

Originally posted by bureau13
Since I'm sure this is at least partially directed at me....

I don't own an RX-8, at least not yet...I own an FD! Another assumption gone awry.

Maybe you really, really do not know how your initial posts sound...go back and read them. Seriously, in every thread I've seen you post in, you make these matter-of-fact statements that are really quite outrageous, and you have zip in the way of facts to back them up. When people catch you in this, you either start talking down to everyone like you have this superior knowledge base and everyone else is ignorant, or you backtrack and say something about how you were just trying to get a nice discussion going....etc etc. Go back and re-read your "thread entry" posts...this is not a flame (not this time :D Those posts really do come off sounding VERY annoying, its not surprising to me that you're getting jumped.

jds

PS: I still want to know how long you've been putting Protek-R in your oil :D

I appologize if i had offended anyone or if i came accross that way, every thing started a few smart remarks a few people said and it went on from there.
Even though im pretty knowledgable about FCs and FD, im new to the RX-8s and the reason why im here is to learn about them so i can be ready when i buy one in march.

Again, i appologize and i didnt imtend to sound or come accross in any disrespectful way.

The appology howver does not apply to Gordon, as he is been stalking every post i make and trackin word by word everything i say to just reply with something smart about it.

And to answer your question ive been using protek-R since my last engine rebuilt, my first 2 engines were stock with no sort of abuse whatsoever and my very last engine seems to be holding pretty well and this time is getting modded step by step

Originally posted by syntrix
MSDS - Material Safety Data Sheet.

Mobil 1 0W-30 MSDS info (http://emmsds.ihspsl.com/netacgi/nph-brs.exe?d=MRUS&s1=&s2=&s3=&s4=0W-30&Sect4=OR&l=20&Sect1=IMGTXT&p=1&u=/msds/redirect2.htm&r=1&f=G&Sect3=MRUS)

Flash Point C(F): 234(453) (ASTM D-92). Bingo! and we'll find that non-synthetic API SL oils are fairly close to that flashpoint, too -- about 400 (F).

And then consider the combustion chamber temps -- as someone posited earlier, an order of magnitude greater!

Finally, (IANAL!) I'm pretty sure one can find the (US federal?) mandate that car manufacturers cannot specify a specific brand of oil, but rather the recommended API service rating and weight(s). And as such, ANY oil commercially available to the consumer, meeting the specified API service rating and weight, must be considered usable. That's one of the main reasons for the API service rating in the first place. I'll see if I can find the actual verbage...

Hey, I just wanted to join this monster multi-thread that is synthetic v. non-synthetic ;)

Sweet! So if you can find that federal law, we can sue the customer service rep for false information!!!! (but only if you have personally received it ;) ;) )

I just want to know what the big deal is with synthetic. If mazda says that it is not necomended, then why argue, really. I mean, If you had to drive two identical RX-8s where one had dino oil and one had synthetic, could you tell which one had synthetic in it. I guess i just don't understand why you have to argue with the ENGENEERS who designed the engine. If you do get them to say yes, physics won't just magicaly change and the chemical properties of synthetic oil will change and it will be O.K. to use it in the 13B. Don't get me wrong, i like synthetic too, but if it isn,t tested to be superior in the 13B, then i'm not going to use it.

I just want to know what the big deal is with synthetic. If mazda says that it is not necomended, then why argue, really. I mean, If you had to drive two identical RX-8s where one had dino oil and one had synthetic, could you tell which one had synthetic in it. I guess i just don't understand why you have to argue with the ENGENEERS who designed the engine. If you do get them to say yes, physics won't just magicaly change and the chemical properties of synthetic oil will change and it will be O.K. to use it in the 13B. Don't get me wrong, i like synthetic too, but if it isn,t tested to be superior in the 13B, then i'm not going to use it.

The reason I'm arguing the point is synthetic is supposed to be superior in every way when compared to conventional oils. To me, it doesn't make sense why those characteristics don't carry over into the rotary. I've heard everyone's explanation, some of which makes sense, some does not (Castrol's explanation doesn't make sense). I would like to see the data that shows synthetic oil harms rotaries. In addition, the data (for the naysayers) they are using may be old: Different rotary, different type of synthetic oil formulation.

I would like to use synthetic if it could prolong engine life and handle hard driving better. Again, all the data provided explaining the characteristics of synthetic shows it is a superior lubricant.

Originally posted by 2_Rotors
I just want to know what the big deal is with synthetic. If mazda says that it is not necomended, then why argue, really. I mean, If you had to drive two identical RX-8s where one had dino oil and one had synthetic, could you tell which one had synthetic in it. I guess i just don't understand why you have to argue with the ENGENEERS who designed the engine.

One of the major points of contention is that Mazda does not appear to be of one mind on the issue. In the past they've specifically stated their recommendation against synthetic oils in the Owners Manual. This is where any such warning belongs; aside from a possible placard on the engine itself -- sort of like the "unleaded fuel only" sign on the gas. For some reason, the RX-8 owners manual does NOT mention synthetic oil at all. If one assumes that Mazda as an organization is competent enough to handle these issues then it is natural to assume that there is no adverse effect of using synthetic oil in the RX-8 as long as it meets the specification set forth in the Owners Manual.

Nobody is arguing with the Mazda engineers since as far as I know nobody here has communicated directly with them. All of the "mazda" comminiques against synthetic have been from salesmen or service departments, or customer assistance queries. If the engineers had evidence of harm from synthetics it's inconceivable to me that this would not be in the Owner's Manual.

The wild card in this equation is the little guide published earlier in this thread. I'm curious as to its origin. It does recommend against synthetics but I'm wondering of its source.

I'm tempted to believe there is a schism within Mazda itself on this issue.

What's missing, of course, is any objective scientific evidence or quantification of just what synthetics allegedly are doing to harm the engine. "Doesn't burn" is a pretty lame explanation.

Yes, we are missing scientific information!

The fact that Mazda left it out of owner supplied information COULD relate to the fact that they can support it with Ford breathing down their neck... eh... or something like that ;)

Why would they leave it out of the manual?

Oversight? - they would have to mail each owner about not using synthetics.

It's bad? Then why not notify each owner about the problems?

Who cares? - you can't prove that synths ruined your engine..... so who cares what you thing.

It's ok - and they are just not supporting it.


Anyway you look at it, there is not enough info to make a decision, but enough second hand information to freak out about.

As long as you provide, as your engine's life blood, what is provided as the specification in the manual, I don't see how synthetics can be a problem.

...once again, I'm not running synths, but I'm anxious to see the "federal law" and other supporting docs, both FED and from MNAO!

If this helps anyone with their decision on what to use... I used synthetic in my RX-7 TurboII for over 50,000 miles with no problems...

I use GTR Castrol non synth on my FD and it burns like hell
need 1 quart every 1000 miles and no I do not have oil leak anymore :)

I don't mean to beat a dead horse or anything, but Mobil just wrote me this:


Thanks for your request. While Mazda does not recommend synthetic oils in general for their rotary engines, experience and testing have shown Mobil 1 to provide superior performance in rotary engines. Check with your Mazda factory rep concerning warranty questions.

MJRoe
Technical Support Engineer

The above information is provided in good faith based upon the information presented by the customer. ExxonMobil is not responsible for any loss or damage resulting from inaccuracies or errors in any of the information provided or any acts or omissions taken in response to our advice.

Exxon Technical Support: Mobil Technical Support:
1-800-44Exxon Prompt #3 1-800-Mobil25 Prompt #3
(1-800-443-9966) (1-800-662-4525)



Just thought I'd throw in more confusion to the debate ;)

FWIW, I was given a Mazda RX-8 Driver's info card (from Mazda) by the dealer about three weeks ago that specifically states that you should not use synthetic oil. So, now Mazda is on the record, in writing, but I guess the "intern" prepared the card!

Forgive me for not reading the 4 pages of posts here, I have a short attention span tonight and a limited amount of time :) For those of you who dont know I work for a mazda dealership. I have been skiming these posts for the past week and been trying to help clear up some of the questions and issues that are floating around.

The synthetic oil thing seems to be a big one. I have it beaten into my head that synthetic oil is not good for rotaries. Its big debate, that I understand and I am not saying you cant do it or not to do it, just giving you a little further insight into Mazdas reasoning.

The Renesis states to use 5W-20 oil. Thats the cut and dry of it. If your engine blows up and a dealership has to replace it what is going to happen is, the blown motor goes back to Mazda and they tear it down piece by piece and inspect it like they have since the early 80's.

The Techincal Highlights book (which I am looking at the moment) states, " ..the use of synthetic oil may be a factor on warranty claims.. "

And think about it....and this is directly from the Mazda RX-8 Class Instrutors. For every 600 miles you drive your car, you burn 1 quart of oil. You all know that the REnesis engine you have is an oil hog. It just burns oil. Its apart of owning the car. In the end, how much money are you going to spend using Synthetic oil compared to -20W?

Now, am I saying that synthetic oil is going to void your warranty, cause your engine to flake out? No and no. Im just saying that Mazda is EXTREMELY ANAL about this car and that engine. Its the newborn baby so its getting all the attention. The original post about synthetic oil cuasing the apex seals to " stick " and the seals to bind....yes it does. One of my technicains worked on racing platform RX-7s for a couple of years, so out of everyone he is the guy I trust the most about failures. The chemical compound in synthetic is different that regular oil. The fine details I dont know, you would have to talk to an engineer, but that right there is way Mazda says no. But let me stress, it takes a lot to break down syntethic oil to that point and will you do it? Probably not.

So in the end what is the big deal about the difference between 5W-20 and syntetic when you consider this:

-the motor burns oil at an average of 1 quart for every 600 miles.
-synethic is more expensive.
-mazda favors 5W-20, which is good with the warranty

What is the advantage of dropping more money into a car that burns oil regardless of what kind it is? Long life? With 1 quart to 600 mile ratio, it seems pointless to me. Then again I dont drive an RX8 except around my lot on occasion lol

It boils down to this....no using syntethic wont hurt the car based on statistics, BUT if your engine blows and Mazda determies its because of synthetic oil (which I have never heard of), be ready to float the bill. Upwards of 3Gs brand new or 6Gs if you want it rebuilt. Stick to the 20W, save some money, and possible troubles in the future.

Let the bitching begin lol

SnyderMazz:

That's the problem, mazda has not provided this documentation to any owners as part of any documentation yet!

opps 2x post

One of my technicains worked on racing platform RX-7s for a couple of years, so out of everyone he is the guy I trust the most about failures.

I would seriously like this guy to chime in and give his take on the whole issue. Maybe give a couple of examples where synthetic oil has ruined a rotary. What specifically he has seen in a rotary engine that has been having trouble or destroyed due to synthetic.

I do alot of start/stop and go type driving in my RX-8 and would like to take advantage of the protection properties of synthetic. However, I don't want to take a risk ruining my warranty or ruining my engine if there is some danger in using synth. All I want to see is a little proof and a clear cut answer why it can't be used.

I'm thinking about just forgetting both dino and synth and just using the big vat of peanut oil I have sitting in my turkey fryer outside my house left over from Thanksgiving. What do you think the viscosity or API rating would be for that?

My tech has told me stories about engines blowing up and things like that. Your normal run of the mill racing stuff. He has seen rotors come apart inside the engine and apex seals come apart, but that is under EXTREME conditions. Something a normal driver will never do, even if he races it.

And using synthetic oil wont void the warranty. Its just a slim possibilty that if the engine flakes and mazda says it was caused by the synthetic oil, they make you float the bill. I have never once seen or heard of Mazda saying " Oh, you caused the engine to fail because you didnt have the recommended oil in the engine....heres your bill for the warranty work we did " - all I want to do is give you mazda point of view. Most of the time as long as there is oil in the engine mazda doesnt care. If your running like 0W racing oil, then you got a problem, but I dont foresee any warranty issues coming up because you used synethic oil.

And I dont know what it isnt in the manual. Its in the service manuals and any rotary tech can verify it. I will talk to my tech rep about it and see what he says. It might have been an oversight and there could be a recall on the manuals (which they did on the tributes in regards to leaving a page out about safety seats). I will check and get back to you.

One last time....

Its recommended to use the 5W-20. Synethic oil MAY cause warranty issues if something major happens, but I seriously doubt it will ever be an issue.

So dont fret it fellas. Oil is oil. Keep in the engine and there wont be problems. That should solve the debate! KEEP OIL IN THE CAR, YOU WONT HAVE PROBLEMS! LOL (If only it were that easy)

How about this, I will make it my personal mission to solve this debate. :) Give me some time and I will ease your fears.

- Snyder

PS - and remeber it burns 1QT per 600 miles. lol

AMSOIL synthetic oils dramatically outperform conventional petroleum motor oils. They reduce friction, heat and wear for maximum power, performance and efficiency. In addition, AMSOIL synthetic oil resists high temperature burn-off, chemical breakdown and sludging which keeps engines cleaner. It's outstanding low temperarure fluidity provides fast, dependable winter starts and immediate startup protection. The result: reduced automotive maintenance and repair. AMSOIL Synthetic Oils exceed the most demanding world-wide performance standards and meet warranty requirements for all domestic and imported passenger cars, both turbo-charged and non turbo-charged. Up to 35,000-mile or 1-year oil drain intervals.



Mixing AMSOIL With Other Oils
AMSOIL synthetic oil is fully compatible with conventional petroleum oils, so you may feel free to top them off with petroleum based oils or top off petroleum based oils with AMSOIL. Howevever, keep in mind that mixing AMSOIL with other oils will reduce its effectiveness and will shorten oil drain intervals. Also, be sure to only mix like viscosity grades.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

AMSOIL Material Safety Data Sheet Date Issued/Revised: June 18, 2003
Supersedes: June 12, 2003

AMSOIL Product Code .................................................. ........................... ASL
Product Label Name...................... 100% SYNTHETIC MOTOR OIL, SAE 5W-30
Product Use............................................... ......................... LUBRICATING OIL

FLAMMABILITY PROPERTIES: Flash Point ........................................ 442°F(228°C)
Method .......................................COC ASTM D-92
LFL/UFL ........................................Not Determined
Auto-ignition Temperature ...............Not Determined


link:
http://www.americansyntheticoil.com/pdf/asl.pdf

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manufacturer's Name: Castrol Heavy Duty Lubricants Inc.
SAE Grades 5W20, 5W30, 10W30, 10W40,
FLASH POINT & METHOD: Min. ASTM D-92 C.O.C. ºC, (ºF.) AUTO 204(400)/227(440)
IGNITION TEMPERATURE:Not Determined
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Flashpoints are close, so what's really the difference in regards to burn off properties.

oops, DP

Maybe Mazda has thing against synthetic oil? Good info ;)

How hot do combustion chambers get anyway? I would imagine it's a bit hotter than 440*F, no?

Originally posted by syntrix
SnyderMazz:

That's the problem, mazda has not provided this documentation to any owners as part of any documentation yet!

Not so as far as I'm concerned. I have the "Driver's Guide" for the RX-8, supplied by my dealer. It is a Mazda publication, not the dealer's and it says no synthetic oil. Guess I'll have to try to scan it and put it on-line.:o

fyi, over here, most of the mazda owners, i mean the 8s.. are using fully synthetic.....which is recommended ........??????

This is an ongoing debate lol I dont think this will ever end. I talked to my rotary tech today and flat out asked him " Why dont they [mazda] want you to use synthetic in the -8s?"- this is how he explained it to me.

A brief class on the lubrication system...its not detailed so bear with me, because Im at work and cant go into the whole thing lol

Basically, the oil sprayers spray small amounts of oil onto the rotor itself to keep it lubricated. Some of that oil gets burned off, thats why the engine burns oil. Now, this will cause a debate and (Im going to stress this) NOT SAYING ITS A FACT ITS A POSSIBILITY. But, synthetic might actually mess with the O2 sensors and cat since the oil is burning up and has a different compound than regular oil. There is a possibilty to why they dont want people to use synthetic. I was also told that synthetic oil doenst add any HP or help the engine create less friction with the rotaries from his experience (my tech). He doesnt see the point to spending more money on synthetic when it just burns up anyways. I have to say I agree with him on that one. Frankly, I dont think it really matters either way. Mazda says not to, but my techs say they dont think synthetic will really hurt anything (NOTE THAT IS NOT OFFICIAL FROM MAZDA, JUST A PERSONAL OPINION). Just remeber Mazda recommends 5W-20.

Ok, I'll attach the scans of this guide in hopes all will see what Mazda says on the subject of oil.

Here are the next two sections. Note the right hand "page". This is a 3.75" x 6" card that folds out into 6 sections.

Sections 4 & 5.

Last, but not least, the promotional stuff on the back of this card.
Note the Part No. 9999-92-RX8D2-04 if anyone is interested in getting this. your dealer should get it for you for FREE.

Great scans TybeeRX-8!!!

Am I the only person that did not get this manual when I purchased my car?

Originally posted by syntrix
Great scans TybeeRX-8!!!

Am I the only person that did not get this manual when I purchased my car?

From what I've seen, I don't think so! Call the dealer and ask him for it. Part No. 9999-92-RX8D2-04

How come I get a feeling that even with the proof in writing, this debate isnt going to end lol I didnt even think about that book. I believe are book is a little different, but it basically says all the same stuff.

Originally posted by SnyderMazz
How come I get a feeling that even with the proof in writing, this debate isnt going to end lol I didnt even think about that book. I believe are book is a little different, but it basically says all the same stuff.

What do you mean by "are" book? You mean your book, and I think you work at a dealership.

Do you mean some brochures to pass out, or official documentation now provided in the sale of an RX8?

It's still not "proof in writing" until Mazda notifies all owners of the vehicle. I did ask about me being the "only one to not receive it", but there was some sarcasm attached to that.

I'll state it again.... every owner is provided with documenation from Mazda. The closest thing to an oil spec provided at the time of purchase mentions nothing about synthetics, just the weight and grade.

Until Mazda notifies owners with a campaign, then "officially", you can run what Mazda told you to run.... and that COULD include synthetics.

I for one, have been running dino 5w-20 since day one, and plan on running it for a long time. However, there actually are people that have bought the car and have never seen the above brocure, and they will never visit this forum, or the dealer in their life!!!!!

So until Mazda notifies every owner officially, then they have not told you not to run synth. But from the documentation above, you can clearly see that they do NOT recommend it!

You make the call, just keep all the info in mind, and a call to MNAO might help ;) Here's their email form:

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/emailMazda.action

Ok this is going to come off as rude, but why is there such a big deal about this? Why would you want to waste extra money on an oil that is going to burn off anyways? Writen proof is availble to me, because I do work at a dealership. If you want writen proof then go to your dealer and ask to see the techincal highlights manual and look at it yourself. The oil cap says " GF-3 5W-20 " - it doenst say " snythetic " anywhere, so I would assume that means just use 5W-20.

Why do you have to have it writing? I just dont see the issue with this is all. I can give you 15 salespeople, 14 mechanics, 5 service consultants, 2 tech reps, and everyone on the Mazda Techincal Hotline to verify that Mazda does not recommend synthetic oil. If you doubt me, call your dealership and ask them. If they say otherwise, tell me what dealership you called and I will personally call them and get thier reasoning.

Its a big deal for nothing. I say if people who use synthetic oil want to waste there money for no difference whatsoever in HP or less friction, go ahead. Its not my wallet lol

Im an ass today, sorry, its been a bad day. I needed to vent

Originally posted by SnyderMazz
Ok this is going to come off as rude, but why is there such a big deal about this? Why would you want to waste extra money on an oil that is going to burn off anyways?

Yeah, what the hell - why bother putting any oil in the engine anyway, since it's just going to burn off? :mad: This is going to come off as rude also, but what an incredibly stupid thing to say!

Maybe the engine oil has other functions besides just seal lubrication in the chamber? Perhaps it is for general lubrication also? Perhaps the proven advantages of synthetic oils for lubrication purposes actually ARE beneficial, even if you don't happen to think so? Perhaps the much better (lower) viscosity at extremely cold temperatures are of huge benefit in reducing cold start wear, which is where 90% of engine wear occurs? Perhaps the high-temperature stability and consistent molecular length of synthetic oils provide better lubrication and bearing protection under high-temperature, high load conditions? Perhaps the resistance to viscosity breakdown over longer change intervals would be of great benefit, given Mazda's bizarre oil change procedure that only change 60% of the oil volume?

Again, rudely put - just because you don't understand the benefits of synthetic oil doesn't mean that there aren't any benefits.

PS - mutual rudeness aside, you've posted several times that the Renesis is supposed to use 1 quart of oil every 600 miles. I think you'll find that from the experience of posters on this forum, the oil consumption isn't nearly that great, and is in real life much closer to 1 quart every 1500 to 2000 miles.

Regards,
Gordon

Yeah Snyder, easy on the venting!

I agree with you 100%. However, Mazda must notify each and every owner that they can not use synthetic, and that has not happened yet.

I won't use synth in my RX8, and the evidence that people are posting is great!

So what is the big deal anyway? Mazda has not notified all owners to NOT use Synthetic oils, in the USA, to date.

That's the big deal, and I await notification in the mail from MNAO about the synthetic oil debate to put it to rest for good!

So let's get back to the topic "mazda's response on synthetic oil" ;)

Anyone else get a similar response yet from MNAO (not the dealer, as they are really "independent" from Mazda), or even a non-similar response?

Re burning 1 qt. every 600 miles -- I just did 1,000 miles over Thanksgiving. Topped off the oil before starting; when I got home it was down only 1/3 on the dipstick range (maybe 1/2 qt.). Should I be worrying that I'm not burning ENOUGH oil? (I'm still on factory oil; have added 1 qt. in first 3,000+ miles. Dealer changes it next week.) BTW my gas mileage is 14-15 mpg commuting and 20-21 6th gear cruising. Wonder if any positive correlation between oil burn and gas mileage (inverse with lack thereof) .....

:( well damnit.... I must take this time to admit that for my 90 RX-7 vert for 120k miles and 3200 miles on my Rx8 I been using Mobil 1....... after seeing that card.... just dino for my rotors from now on. But this is complete crap that they didnt include that in the manual

I like how the driving guide describes the "soft whirring noise" of the rotary at idle.
If I could only hear that whirring noise over the loud grunting of the transmission input shaft in neutral.:mad:

No offense meant. the 1-600 ratio I gave, it what I have heard, and I personally think it is a little high myself. Didnt mean to stir up troubles ;) Ive said all I can say about synthetic, so Im taking the hint and leaving it to you fellas lol

Some time back I sent an Email to Mazda to request information on using a synthetic blend 5w20 Motorcraft oil in my RX-8. At the time I received a reply that Mazda does NOT recommend using synthetic oils at all in the RX-8. Today I recieved a followup Email which I thought might be of general interest - and will probably start another big controversy. It follows:

"Dear Bob,

I have an update for you regarding the RX-8 and synthetic oil. Mazda
has done some additional testing and due to the different seals in the
Renesis engine, you can use synthetic oil.

I hope this update proves helpful.

Please take a moment to give us your opinion about our e-mail service.
Click the link below to complete a brief, online survey.

http://www.zoomerang.com/survey.zgi?7EMJS4EKDX6RM8GQPRWCFQ5M

Regards,

Jennifer Gray
Specialist, Customer Assistance E-Business"

If they are actually serious i will be thrilled. but it seems a little strange that they had to do additional research and didnt know about the seals in the car the entire company revolves around. and it also says nothing about all of the previous quotes from mazda stating that the reason not to use synthetic was not the seals but the cat and the way synthetic burns etc... still this could be great news for those of us who believe in synthetic.

Bwaaaahahahahaha! :D

Is this the point where all of us who have posted often that synthetics are OK for the RX-8 get to say "I told you so" to everyone who swore we'd destroy our engines? :p :D :p

Regards,
Gordon

I was the one who posted (started) the thread on the "official" word on synthetic oils from Mazda and posted their e-mail to me.

I too have received the updated E-mail stating it is now OK.

I will certainly print this out and save it electronically, but Mobil 1, here I come!

Take care,
Glen

I guess that case of Redline 5w-20 I bought will be put to good use!

Vince

So will my case of AMSOil XL7500 that I received today!

I first ran synthetic oil in my RX-7 about 6 years ago. I never had any problems with it. I just tried to stay out of the big debate on it.

i guess mobll 0W-20 will be getting used now

When we change our oil, we seem to only change 1/2 of it because of all the coolers. I assume this synthetic and regular mix will be ok. Thanks

When I have changed the oil in my RX-7's, I have always removed the drain plug from the oil coolers as well. Obviously there is a little oil left in the lines but not very much. Quite a bit sits in the coolers so it is best to empty the system as good as possible.

Originally posted by rotarygod
When I have changed the oil in my RX-7's, I have always removed the drain plug from the oil coolers as well. Obviously there is a little oil left in the lines but not very much. Quite a bit sits in the coolers so it is best to empty the system as good as possible.

Do the coolers on RX-8 have drain plugs?

A more complete change sounds better but I wonder does having them empty delay oil getting to the engine after the change? How long would it take them to fill?

Hey Guys,
I have just recieved word from Mazda about syntheti oil. Get ready. OK, here it cames. YOU CAN USE IT. They said that they did some testing and that the new seals used in the RENISIS enable you to use synthetic. Check it out. Hopefully this will end the 200 page debate in another thread about syntietic oil.

All that build up, all those exclamation points, only to be beaten to the punch (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16430) by 4 days! ;)

OK, so we had already been told - this is still very good news, and worth repeating! Still - I bet in 2 years, people will still be popping up to tell us that we can't use synthetic oils in our rotaries because when they had an FD Mazda told them not to! :D

Regards,
Gordon

Bump, to bring the first thread to bring us the good news about this back to the top! :D

Motul Baby!!! :D

I think I'd still want to get it in wrighting from a Mazda dealer that its ok to use syn. oil. My .02 cents. :) CJ

BTW: I'm a mobile 1 user in every other car I own.

1998 V6 Tacoma
1993 single turbo Rx-7
1971 "Mail" Jeep <-Wifes work vehicle does'nt get M1. :)

Originally posted by pp13bnos
I think I'd still want to get it in wrighting from a Mazda dealer that its ok to use syn. oil.

Why, did you ever have it in writing from a Mazda dealer that it's NOT ok to use syn. oil? The only thing Mazda put in writing to every RX-8 owner was the specs in the owners manual - 5W20, API SL. Use a 5W20 synthetic that meets API SL, and you're complying with every specification in writing that Mazda has produced.

Regards,
Gordon

http://www.hempoilcan.com/

I asked for a spare quart of oil when I took delivery on my 8 from the dealer.

They put a quart of synthetic in the trun k for me. That says something, no?

Claude H.

Because last I heard if you put syn. oil in a reman, it voids the warrenty. Unless things have changed in the past couple months concering remans. :confused: CJ

That wasn't a remanufactured Renesis though was it? I know they used to say that about the previous generation remans...then again, the previous generation's owner's manual mentioned it specifically as well, which is not the case with the Renesis (Note: I'm one of those folks who have been ignoring that prohibition in his FD for years, so interpret that as you will :-)

jds

Originally posted by pp13bnos
Because last I heard if you put syn. oil in a reman, it voids the warrenty. Unless things have changed in the past couple months concering remans. :confused: CJ

From what I understand, the new 3rd gen remans are using the Renesis apex seals. But last I heard, they still don't want you running syn. with the reman motors. But things could have changed by now....I have'nt been keeping up with the remans. But still, just to be on the safe side....get it in wrighting. I'd hate to have Mazda void a warrenty claim on my FE because I used syn. oil in it. And Mazda could claim, they had no idea where that e-mail even came from....I dunno. I'm going to play it safe. :) CJ

Wow, the survey still works ;) Jennifer must have some high marks so far, lol.

Wait a minute..... anyone find it odd that the survey link in the two mentions of synth emails here is EXACTLY the same?

There is this one here, and the one uploaded by 2_Rotors.
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16688

What gives with that?

Originally posted by pp13bnos
I'd hate to have Mazda void a warrenty claim on my FE because I used syn. oil in it. And Mazda could claim, they had no idea where that e-mail even came from....I dunno. I'm going to play it safe. :) CJ

Yup, play it safe then by using exactly what Mazda specifies in the owners manual. SAE 5W20, API SL. That's it. Come on, this is easy - if your synthetic oil is 5W20 and API SL, then it meets warranty requirements.

Regards,
Gordon

I just received this e-mail today from Mazda USA on the use of synthetic oil in the rotary engine.

Here it is:


Dear Glen,

Referencing the e-mail I sent last week, we've received an update from Mazda Motor Corporation in Japan. They have advised they would like to do some additional long term testing before recommending synthetic oil for the RX-8. For this reason, we recommend continuing to adhere to the oil specifications referenced on page 8-9 of the Owner's Manual which specify the use of mineral oils only.

Should you have any further questions regarding this matter, please feel free to contact me at 800-222-5500 option #4.

Regards,

Jennifer Gray
Specialist, Customer Assistance E-Business


I have e-mailed them back asking what are the consequences if I have already switched to synthetic oil. I also advised them that in my owners manual it does NOT mention the use of mineral oils at all.

I'll let you know the next reply!

Glen

Poor Jennifer!
Her sources can't decide how to approach this issue here in the States. I wonder how long these long-term tests will take before we have an official announcement from Mazda Japan.

Hum ... Jennifer Gray ... I wonder if she's related to Jean Gray and that's how Cyclops got a pre-production "8" ... :D

Glen220 - Thanks for the update. I must admitt if I'm gonna burn as much as I think I'm going too of either synthetic as mineral - I was thinking of going with the cheaper alternative. And I was wondering about long term too. Hopefully they can get some solid info soon.

Page 8-9 of the manual does not state a mineral or synthetic preference whatsoever - so what on earth are they referring to "the oil specifications referenced on page 8-9 of the Owner's Manual which specify the use of mineral oils only"

I'm also a little stumped by all the voodoo that people are coming up with regarding synthetic oil and how you're not supposed to use it in the RX-8. It's the 21st century for goodness sakes!

The "official" word on oil type is in the owners manual.

The bottom line is, in the FC and FD RX-7's the owners manual specifically said not to use synthetic oil. In the RX-8 manual it does not say that. It gives an oil specification and says you must use oil that meets the specification. If Mazda did not want you to use synthetic oil in the RX-8 they would have said so in the manual. All the quotes and emails from people at mazda and such are just hearsay from folks who either don't know or want to err on the side of caution (ie: if you call up and say "can I do blah in my RX-8" the safest answer is gonna be "No", especially if the person giving the answer doesn't really know) and it just helps spread the confusion.

That's got to be a load of BS... I mean, shouldn't a "rated" (SJ, etc) oil be fine?

Or should we all just go to castor?? Then our cars would at least smell good.

:D

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
Yup, play it safe then by using exactly what Mazda specifies in the owners manual. SAE 5W20, API SL. That's it. Come on, this is easy - if your synthetic oil is 5W20 and API SL, then it meets warranty requirements.

Regards,
Gordon

Yeah, I totally agree with this.

Do what the warranty says... and it says SAE 5W20, SPI SL. If your bottle of oil says that on it, Mazda can't do anything to void your warranty. I can't envision them wiggling out of that legal noose.

so is this true or not?

People who are looking to put synth oil into your rotary, answer me this: What do you hope to accomplish by putting synthetic oil into your engine?

General rule of thumb from the long established RX-7 community is this:

Expensive Synths are OK, like Amsoil, Redline, or Royal Purple. NEVER NEVER use Valvoline or Mobile 1!! There have been a number of folks that used Mobile 1 or Valvoline on the RX-7 email list that took their engines apart to see the buildup of crud around the exhaust ports and shrinking/cracking/destruction of a good number of different seals. The seal material was changed on the RENESIS, but I think it is too early for to see if the seals take synthetics well.

Generally for all rotaries, since oil MUST be changed at the SAME intervals for both Dyno oil and Synth, a major rason for moving to synth is down the drain, namely going longer between oil changes to justify the added cost of synths.

Again, Generally for rotaries, Dyno oil is perfect for street use. It you plan on tracking the car, go ahead and change the oil to synth but make sure you are changing the oil at 2000 miles, and/or after ever race if you do a lot of track time!


Back to brands.... it really does depends on what brand you are using. Blanket statements like all synthetics are bad are not true anymore. There is a story that when Mazda was hot and heavy into racing, they used a synthetic with bad results. To avoid litigation, they withheld the name of the brand, and just used the blanket statement of "Synthetics are bad" (This was even mentioned in an issue of Sport Compact Car Magazine a few years ago)

Conclustions: If you are worried, stay with dyno-juice, and change your oil often. If you are dead-set about using synthths, go ahead but use the expensive stuff, and change your oil often. If you don't care, use whatever, and change your oil often.

Originally posted by rotarynews.com
People who are looking to put synth oil into your rotary, answer me this: What do you hope to accomplish by putting synthetic oil into your engine?
...
Generally for all rotaries, since oil MUST be changed at the SAME intervals for both Dyno oil and Synth, a major rason for moving to synth is down the drain, namely going longer between oil changes to justify the added cost of synths.


Several reasons - first, cold startup protection. For piston engines, it's always said that something like 80% of engine wear occurs within the first 30 seconds of a cold start. I would assume it's a similar situation for rotaries. Synthetics, with their much better flow characteristics at cold temperatures, help reduce this start-up wear. At VERY cold temperatures (ie below 0F), especially with the lack of block heaters in the Renesis, this can become a significant factor.

Oil changes - right now, Mazda's regular oil change volume of 3.7 quarts is only changing about half of the total oil capacity of 7 quarts. Therefore, using an oil capable of extended life is valuable, since half the oil after a change is old!

Regards,
Gordon

Great point Gordon. I've been a proponant of synthetic oil for many years (Mobile 1). I use to purchase Mobile 1 when it was $8 USD a quart back in the mid 80s.
I've exchanged my oil at Pepboys three times now. First purchasing Moble 1 0W20. Then after reading many threads (here) on synthetics, I exchanged my case for GTX 5W20. Finally after reading Mazda's letter on this post, exchanging GTX for Mobile again. I have to find an alternate Pepboys to do my next exchange (ha).
Gordon, your points in using synthetic are valid to me, and I agree. I just have one concern and hopfully you can clear it up. My only concern with synthetic is from what I've read on this forum, is its inability to "burn" and aid in combusion.
But as far as using synthetic, I'm on the fence but leaning towards synthetic.
Thanks
Al

Expensive Synths are OK, like Amsoil, Redline, or Royal Purple. NEVER NEVER use Valvoline or Mobile 1!! There have been a number of folks that used Mobile 1 or Valvoline on the RX-7 email list that took their engines apart to see the buildup of crud around the exhaust ports and shrinking/cracking/destruction of a good number of different seals.

Why are the expensive synths O.K. but not Mobil1 or Valvoline? Also, how do the RX-7 owners you speak of know the reason their engines were all carboned up was because of Synthetic oil use. I have yet to use synthetic in an oil change (I've done 3 so far), but I'm strongly leaning towards its use because of my style of driving: Stop and go, alot of short trips, and frequent start ups.

I agree with Borg, the properties of synthetic are far superior and there has been little evidence to support that its actually harmful to rotaries.

Originally posted by rxtreme
I agree with Borg

:confused: :D

Resistance is futile, you WILL be assimilated!

This debate goes on and on... There are people on both sides of the fence...

From LONG time rotary people at Mazdatrix: http://www.mazdatrix.com/faq/synthetc.htm


This has got to be one of the most frequently asked questions ever!

Here is our answer:
The Rotary engine has an oil injection system that injects small amounts of oil into either the intake tract, carb, or rotor housing (depending on year/model). This is needed to lubricate the various internal seals and surfaces.

The injected oil MUST BURN, and must burn clean. The root answer to the question is that not ALL synthetic oils burn, and not ALLof them burn clean.
The ones that do not burn accumulate until they foul the spark plugs.
The ones that do not burn clean can leave residues of various substances (like ash? plastic? non-organic sand?) that accumulate until the spark plugs foul, or a seal sticks -- could be apex seal, side seal, corner seal, or oil control ring. The normal consequence of a stuck seal is an engine tear down.

In the many years we have been involved in rotary engines, we have NEVER had a problem with GOOD petroleum based oils. They work fine! They are less expensive than synthetics. (We use Castrol 20-50 GTX). They burn clean, etc. etc.

The problem with answering the original question is that it is NOT a simple yes or no. We DO simplify it to a "NO", but that is because we do NOT know whether the specific brand of synthetic the customer has in mind will work. AND, if it does not work, how long will it be before the damage shows up, and how bad will the damage be? Maybe it will take 10,000 miles, maybe 50,000 miles?? Maybe the engine will fail due to something unrelated to the oil, and there won't be enough left to determine why the failure happened.

WE are not willing to take that gamble, are you ?

Then, take a minute to think of WHY you want to use a synthetic. If a rotary engine (properly maintained, oil changes at 3K intervals, etc.) can still be running fine at over 200,000 miles, the engine does not need any more cooling, the gas milage will not be any better, etc. etc. WHY do you want to spend more $$ and gamble on engine and/or spark plug damage? (If you are into the fossil fuel thing, pollution, depleting our resources, etc. then you should not be driving ANY car!)

We are not chemists, and we do not have the time, $$'s, nor inclination to do 100K mile tests of various synthetics in rotary engines.

We DO use synthetics in the transmissions and rear ends - it works fine.

Anyway - that is the MAZDATRIX version of the synthetic question.


Now, we have the other side of the fence, Racingbeat (http://racingbeat.com) :



Racing Beat has been recommending the use of synthetic oils in rotary applications for several years. Our research has found that synthetic oils provide superior friction reducing between sliding surfaces, reduced foaming, and lower oil temperatures. We have tested several different synthetic oils and have found that while most offered improved wear and lower oil temperatures, none offered any horsepower gains... except for Royal Purple!

Our in-house testing has yielded up to a 2% performance increase after changing from mineral-based oil to Royal Purple Synthetic Motor Oil. How could this be? Jim Mederer, co-founder and chief engineer at Racing Beat, was truly puzzled. With over 35 years of professional racing experience under his belt, he has seen and tried just about every “new” lubricant that hits the market. All offered better wear and lower oil temperatures but none offered any horsepower improvement. After spending time consulting with the engineers at Royal Purple to better understand the reason for the horsepower gain, it was explained that the secret was the proprietary ingredient “Synerlec”. This Synerlec ingredient provides an ultra-slick film on internal engine components to significantly reduce power-robbing friction. Less friction equals more power!

Other professional engine builders have confirmed that Royal Purple Synthetic Racing Oil delivers measurable horsepower gains. Independent dyno tests show increases up to 5% (on smaller displacement engines) with nothing more than an oil change.





Additional info from Dave at FC3s.ORG:



The combustion temps in the rotary engine are about what 1200-1600F? Can anyone tell me what temp most synthetic oil hits flash point? ~600F Now with that in mind, what are the odds that there is going to be leftovers in the combustion chamber from oil? The older oils didn't have the technology that we have today. That is the reason that the synthetic oils used to have a bad rap. Older oils used to not be good, and most if not all were very bad to use in the rotary engine. I use royal purple racing 21 in our Project 86 TII and I use royal purple 10W30 regular synthetic oil in my 91 N/A vert. I gained 3HP on the G-Tech and aftermarket oil gauges registered -5F just at idle and up to -15 under hard boost. Oil pressure was lowered by about 3-5psi compared to dino oil.




Like I said before: If you are worried, stay with dyno... If you want to go synth, go ahead.. but make sure the oil has no ash. If you don't care, the do whatever... Just change your oil often!

Ok gang, here is Mazda's response to my return e-mail to them.




Dear Glen,

Mazda's position is - until further testing can be completed we do not recommend synthetic oil.

I'd be happy to reimburse you for your synthetic oil change. Please fax that receipt to my attention - my fax number is 949-727-6703. I would also like to either send you a certificate to have the oil changed back to regular oil or you could fax a receipt to my attention -whatever works best for you.

You are a valued customer, Glen, for this reason I'm sending you two $** (deleted by Glen) Valued Consumer Gift Certificates. These can be used towards the purchase of accessories or services for your RX-8.

Regards,

Jennifer Gray
Specialist, Customer Assistance E-Business



Although Mazda's lack of research before issuing a statement that they had to retract concerns me, they certainly do try and make amends. I applaud them for that.

I also wonder how big of a deal they now think synthetic oil is since they were so quick to reimburse me for the Mobil1 oil change and pay/reimburse me to have it changed back??

I know some are wondering why I deleted the amount of the gift certificates. It is just something I feel strongly about in regards to any money and privacy. I will say it was less than $100. and was a nice gesture.

So I'm back to "dino" oil again.

It sounds like the Eternal Argument goes on even inside Mazda. IMO if Mazda knew for a fact that synthetic oil caused specific problems they would say so. They haven't, so as far as I'm concerned, they don't. They are clearly worried about it of course, but it sounds more like a liability paranoia than anything else. It comes down to this...do your research and decide for yourself. No one is going to give you a good solid provable reason to not use synthetics, because they don't exist. There are loads and loads of stories and rumors that get spread back and forth (e.g. synthetics don't burn, they leave ash residue when they do burn, etc. etc.) but this is hardly a substitute for anything scientific. So...on the one hand, the known benefits and on the other, the risk that there is a kernel of truth at the bottom of all of the rumors and myths and paranoid warnings. Certainly, it has been shown that rotaries work just fine on "regular" oil.

jds

PS: One other point...It would not be all that obvious on tear-down that synthetic oil is present. Its basically the same stuff at heart as dino-oil. If its my dime, I'm probably not going to proclaim loudly that I've been using synthetic when I take a blown motor in for warranty work!

jds

:( :( :( ouch my head! :( :( :(

I think I will just sell the car when the oil level hits the low mark.:p

Just changed my oil to AMSOil XL-7500 5W-20 synthetic. I was pretty happy - it took almost 5 quarts. I drove the driver's side front wheel up on the curb in front of my driveway - that must have allowed some of the oil from the left cooler to flow into the sump. Now I'm hoping for a little mileage improvement (we can always hope, can't we?)!

Amsoil 7500 is a group 3. Its a mineral oil(very refined). It should be as well as all the other blended 20wt oils.

Mobil1 is just as good as Amsoil/Redline/....

Valvoline is a group 3 with a lame additive package. Less additives means cleaner burning. So, its another mineral oil. Nothing wrong with it.

It will again(in several years) come down to owners' care.
The engines that will fail will have infrequent oil change intervals(7.5k), will be shut off cold(all those milky oil complaints), will carbon up(engines that aren't driven hard), will carbon up(engines that don't see a bottle of FI cleaner every now and then), will overheat(coolant not changed yearly), .........
I could go on and on.

As a engineer I sugest Mobil 1 0-W-40 in all cases, after 2 or 3 oil changes the dual oil coolers of course will be complete.

I also should mention that the transmission (manual) be changed to synthetic also.

Kind regards,
Doug Green
Las Vegas

Before you start using 0w-40 mobil1.... You might want to stop by and check out some of the UOA's on the 0w-40 at bob's.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com

Some guy's over there aren't too happy with the particular additive package in the 0w-40 mobil1.

Btw found a UOA on an rx8 :).

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001030

I see a lot of:

"I think the rotary has...."

Or :

"not sure if the rotary...."

Just be careful of what you read!

Given all the above, I will stick with semi-synthetic or mineral ....

Don't ask me why, but just seems to make sense

i've used syths in my past cars but now that i have free maintenance from the buyback option, i guess i'll have to settle with regular oil...i REALLY doubt the dealer is gonna give me synth for free

I am convinced that synthetic is the way to go. I'd like to get mobil1. Where can I buy it on line?
thanks

If you want to buy online, buy the best at www.amsoil.com. No need to buy Mobil1 online, it's everywhere. Perhaps one of the auto supply chains have online purchasing, if you really don't want to leave the house.

I just got my RX8 a month ago. My first rotary.
Here's my stupid question:

If the car burns a quart of oil a month why do we still need to change the oil so often, as said by others. Besides the filter why do we change oil ever?

And that leads me to my next question:

Does the RX8 burn a quart of oil a month?

arobel, you will have more oil injected into the engine based on how hard you drive it.

I've burned a full quart in single track day ;)

I think that around the street I will burn about 3/4 of a quart in a month, but that's with pretty hard driving.

Hi all,

I bought my rx8 this past Saturday. I'm a Mazda and rotary newbie so please excuse my ignorance. When I took delivery of my car, the salesman dislosed a few things concerning the maintance of the car. He mentioned the flooding issue and checking the oil level rather frequently. He was also empathic about never using synthetic oil.

Has anyone heard about this or have any insite?

Thanks

Try a search using the word Synthetic, then watch the flood of results-
felix

no syntetic or blends on this car........

#1.....The salesmen know squat. The manual does not even mention synthetic oil. Go with the manuals recommendations.

#2.....Never take advice from some dikhed on the internet......
.
.
.
doc

I think Mazda came out with some notice saying synthetic oil was ok. I guess to be safe you can't go wrong with gool ole motor oil since the long term effect of synthetic oil in the Renesis is probably not known.

If it's okay, it's certainly "salesman-legend" that it's not okay. I drove 8's at 3 dealers and darn if all 3 of em didn't tell me "...now you can't use synthetic oil in one of these..." I have no idea. I also have no desire to use synthetic oil, so I figure I'm in the clear. It would be interesting however to know if it's truth or fiction.....

Originally posted by davetep

He was also empathic about never using synthetic oil.


He must be very sensitive.

SSSHHHHHHHH! Don't tell anyone, but I'm running synthetic! Oh, my poor engine!

I put 150K on my RX-7 with synthetic only. Needless to say, I'm not worried.

IMHO - I don't believe that Mobile 1 or any synthetic would actually cause any problems in an RX-8.... however I'd probably run the Castrol Syntec if I had an RX-8. It's not actually synthetic, but it has been refined and cleaned up the point that it is just like synthetic.

Personally I like synthetic and believe that it really does keep the motor in better condition. My Integra sees nothing but Amsoil. I've never had the bottom end apart, but @ 134k miles the vavletrain looks new. (Oh, and runs like new too :) )

EDIT: I've also seen two Nissan 200SX SE-R engines (SR20DE) @ 100k + miles. Both I KNOW had regular oil changes. The one that was running synthetic looked brand new. The one running dyno was a bit dirty and nasty looking....

I spoke to Ken Shepard from technical dept at Mazda Australia 2 days ago.Said that Castrol type R 5w-30 synthetic is fine to use.
Then I rang City Mazda in Melbourne from who I bought my rx8 from and they said that they use castrol type R 5w-30 on all of their rx8's.
Subsequently yesterday at my 1000km service I had the oil changed with castrol type R 5w-30.
Verdict: car feels smoother and seems to pull a little better than before.Maybe a few extra ponies unleashed ?

pleeeeease search. read what's there to read, and if you have more questions, tag 'em on the end. i'm a big proponent of thread resurrection. :)

thanks,
Your Friendly Neighborhood Mod

WOW, imagine my suprise when i went into a dealer here in Bitberg for a front licence plate bracket when i saw a Mazda Synthetic Oil on Display..... After fumbling with my german (my german language skills are less than adiquate) He told me that not only is it approved but its required in all the 8's!! ill be posting a pic of this statment as soon as i get my hands on a scanner... more to come!!

That is awesome! Can't wait for the scans ;)

what kind of difference would that make?

off topic: That's so cool to "meet" someone from Spangdahlem. I used to live in Wittlich for 16 years.

If you go to Bitburg again, make sure you check out the strip club "Tic Tac" on the old base, it rules :)
Oh yea, and I know the owner of the "Peking Restaurant" in Spangdahlem, check out their crispy (fried) duck, I would die to get my hands on one of those now..... wee, germany, I'll be back ;)

Oh no! I thought the syntec oil debate was reserved only for RX-7s! ;)

The RX-8s are NA, so I don't see a problem with putting syntec in them. Actually, I think it makes sense! :D

Don't jump to conclusions about German Mazda dealers putting synthetic oil into Rx-8s. I was told by a European that they typically use synthetic oil in cars, maybe to protect the environment. It might be unusual or against procedure to use non-syn oil at this Mazda dealer in Germany. It may have nothing to do with the RX-8.

I'm a great fan of syn oil. I've found that they really make a big difference in older cars (e.g. keeps them running quiet). My Mazda dealer (and the recently received driving guide from Mazda) said not to use it. It makes sense that syn oil may not burn as well as non-syn oil so for now, I'm sticking with non-syn oil that they give me with the free oil changes.

This is straight from the horses mouth..............

In regard to using synthetic oil, Mazda does not test any of our
vehicles using synthetic oil. As such, we do not recommend the use of
synthetic oil, only because we have not tested it.

Also, I found out the folder you're inquiring about is the Mazda Driver's Guide, part number 9999-92-rx8d2-04
. The Mazda Driver's Guide is intended for
the sales staff at the dealerships to learn about the RX-8. However,
Mazda is currently in the process of revising a guide for customer
use. We are hoping to have a revised copy available to customers within
the next couple of months. Testing with synthetic oil is now taking place

I hope this information is helpful for you.

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Regards,

Lisa Lasky
Specialist, Customer Assistance E-Business

In the UK we are supplied with a litre of oil with the car when new.

The oil is Mazda Dexelia Ultra 5w30 and is the recommended oil in the RX8 handbook.

Today whilst in my local dealership I picked up a leaflet describing Mazda's new range of oils branded Dexelia produced for mazda by TotalFinaElf.

The leaflet describes the Dexelia Ultra oil as 'Super low viscosity oil based on state of the art synthetic oil technology'

Looks like Mazda in the UK are certainly endorsing the use of synthetic oil in the 8....................

yep yep, same here in Germany, the way its explained to me was that its the best of both worlds... IE burns like petro, lube like synthetic. Must be why its $7.20 a liter!!

In Italia we use only synthetic oil, that is what Mazda and the dealers say to do.......why all the American confusion

Misinformation and conjecture are probably why some are afraid of synthetics.

There have been debates on whether it burns as well as conventional oil among others.

Most oil manufactures should be able to supply a "flash point" figure which should allay any fears. Unless it's extraordinarily high, I cannot see why it would be an issue.

Second, some oils will burn "cleaner" than others. There's no *way* to determine this unless tested. One conventional oil may burn "dirtier" than another, and both may burn dirtier than a synthetic... or vice versa. There are simply too many variables.

Plus, any "SFI" rated oil, as long as it complies with the specs required in the owners manual, will be fine and, IMHO, there is no way they can turn down a warranty claim if you follow the recommendations set forth in the owners manual.

Synthetic or not.

IMHO :cool:

Originally posted by Supraman
In Italia we use only synthetic oil, that is what Mazda and the dealers say to do.......why all the American confusion

We Americans thrive on a diet of hearsay, multilated facts, and opinions. Just look at our media. Most people watch the news or read the newspapers. Me, I call it the '6 oclock opinion' or the opinionpapers. :D

The whole pro/con argument is BS. Frequent maintenance is more important regardless of what brand/weight you choose and DEFINITELY regardless of oil consumption.
Practicing extended maintenance is foolish when using a synth.
Trying to extend maintenance because you burn a certain amount of oil is foolish.