This weekend, I hired a pro driver to coach me for a track day.
What we focused on the most was turning the car with the release of the brake. Yes, trail braking- something I thought I was doing already, but the subtle nuance and timing of the release of the brake to get the car to turn in and pivot that much more effectively than I was doing before was the lesson of the day.

Before the coaching, I had the tendency to brake too late (thinking later was better), and I was saving too much brake for the end of the brake zone- therefore not allowing for a smooth trail brake transition.

We focused on braking a bit earlier, smoothly (with very little dive), with the initial straight braking doing the majority of the braking, while leaving just enough brake to turn the car in and just enough brake to rotate the car upon release, nearing the apex of the turn.

Earlier, smoother, subtle modulation.

I've always run at the limit of Hawk HP Plus in terms of their heat range, but during the coaching, the brakes never exhibited any sign of fade despite our slightly longer brake zones. The tires never got greasy either. The smooth, consistent laps really helped keep the car's brakes and tires within their operating range.

Other than that, the car behaved extremely well and definately serves it purpose as an ideal tool for track instruction due to its neutral nature and its need for momentum.

Here's a lap vid (track was slightly damp but still grippy):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFO8J0NHfH4

Nice video. Your inputs looked smooth and steady.

^

Thanks. That's what I most wanted to get out of the day- to lap quickly while being safe, smooth and consistant in form by adhering to technique.

I'd always complained in the past about the RX8's tail getting squirrely under hard braking and it was because I was saving too much brake too deep in to the brake zone.

Good job. Calm=Smooth=Fast!!

Thanks for that description of trail-braking, I never heard it described that way. I know that the transition from braking to turning to throttle is one of the keys to being quick, its just so difficult to be calm and smooth about it.

I remember when you gave me a ride at homestead, I kept thinking damnit this guy is smooth! Very nice vid.

Smooth driving but how were your lap times? When I last practiced trail braking, I guess I was riding the brakes more than I had to and my lap times decreased.

It takes some balls to go into a corner faster than usual so you can use trail braking to your advantage to go faster. I'd say it's a really advanced technique.

I practice somthing like trail braking but not for racing (for fun). In the winter snow I play around with brake-drifting, tricky stuff too but feels so pro not grabbing for the handbrake with every drift. I like snowy days and big open parking lots, you get to learn about driving dynamics at a much slower speed, ad it saves your expensive tires! LOL

How much did the coach for the day cost?

We discussed that during my last NASA event. I think it's something I need to work on a bit more. The advantages are to great not to perfect this skill.

Thanks SouthFL.

Thanks for that description of trail-braking, I never heard it described that way. I know that the transition from braking to turning to throttle is one of the keys to being quick, its just so difficult to be calm and smooth about it.
I remember when you gave me a ride at homestead, I kept thinking damnit this guy is smooth! Very nice vid.

Thanks. And yes, it's the greatest irony that one is quickest when being smooth and fluid isn't it? Analogy is similar to trying to hit a home run or perfect your gold swing.

Smooth driving but how were your lap times? When I last practiced trail braking, I guess I was riding the brakes more than I had to and my lap times decreased.

It takes some balls to go into a corner faster than usual so you can use trail braking to your advantage to go faster. I'd say it's a really advanced technique.

I practice somthing like trail braking but not for racing (for fun). In the winter snow I play around with brake-drifting, tricky stuff too but feels so pro not grabbing for the handbrake with every drift. I like snowy days and big open parking lots, you get to learn about driving dynamics at a much slower speed, ad it saves your expensive tires!

Lap time came down a couple seconds from a previous best of 1:54 to a 1:52. But to preface the day of instruction, my request was to not pay attention to lap times and to simply focus on the technique. We happened to look at the stopwatch and we cut a 1:52 (we started the day at 1:55ish). Most imporatantly was the manner in which we turned the fast lap and a series of consistent 1:53's- in an extremely controlled manner, while my previous best was from a few months ago, scaring myself going in to a few turns.

How much did the coach for the day cost?

A grand. It was Peter Argetsinger.

We discussed that during my last NASA event. I think it's something I need to work on a bit more. The advantages are to great not to perfect this skill.

Thanks SouthFL.

Like anything else, it takes an ability to understand it in concept and apply it, and practice makes perfect. But sitting next to someone guiding through it real time is well worth the cost. He can sense the pedal input and tells you exactly when and how much to modulate.

The brakes on the RX8 are definitely one of its strong points. If you are not reaching the temp range on your Hawk HP's then you are leaving alot on the table in the braking department. With a little more seat time you will be able to step up to some higher temp range pads and USE them.

It sounds like you are learning the right way, good luck.:)

The brakes on the RX8 are definitely one of its strong points. If you are not reaching the temp range on your Hawk HP's then you are leaving alot on the table in the braking department. With a little more seat time you will be able to step up to some higher temp range pads and USE them.

It sounds like you are learning the right way, good luck.:)




I've always run at the limit of Hawk HP Plus in terms of their heat range, but during the coaching, the brakes never exhibited any sign of fade despite our slightly longer brake zones. The tires never got greasy either. The smooth, consistent laps really helped keep the car's brakes and tires within their operating range.

It's actually inversely related. I'm running cooler now while lapping quicker due to braking sooner (firmly without an initial stab) and smoother and modulating with the release into the turn- instead of stabbing the brake late into the brake zone and leaving all/most of the braking to the end of the brake zone in an attempt to brake later and deeper- as I used to do (this practice would bring pad temps up along with upsetting the balance of the car).

Sorry it is not inversely related. If that were true you would only need stock pads and could go even faster.

My only point is that if you are not getting the Hawk HP's up to and beyond their heat range then you are not reaching the potential of the car or you are on a very slow course.

Your speed increase in lap times is not a result of using less brakes directly but more a result of being faster at other points on the track, most likely through the turns.:)

Sorry it is not inversely related. If that were true you would only need stock pads and could go even faster.

My only point is that if you are not getting the Hawk HP's up to and beyond their heat range then you are not reaching the potential of the car or you are on a very slow course.

Your speed increase in lap times is not a result of using less brakes directly but more a result of being faster at other points on the track, most likely through the turns.:)

It is inversely related in terms of the apples to apples lap comparison which I'm stating:

Braking later, more aggressively, upsetting the balance of the car (while bringing pad temp and tire temps higher) resulted in a slower lap time to the technique being practiced on the coaching day which resulted in a quicker lap time, cooler pad and cooler tire.

Also, what good is a race pad going to do with a 200 treadwear tire which I'm running on?

Edit: unnecessarily arrogant comment I made at the end erased.

The bottom line is that your decrease in lap times was not a result of less brake heat directly. It was a result of your being smoother and faster throughout the corner because YOU are no longer upsetting the car. When you learn to combine Smoooooth, HARD, LATE braking and smooth balance into, through, and out of the corner you will have it dicked.

Backing up your braking points will result in less brake heat because you are not accelerating as long down the straight resulting in braking at a slower speed. Less speed less Kinetic energy to transfer to the brakes.

you don't need higher temperature pads unless you're braking from a significantly higher entry speed, which the RX-8 with a stock-ish motor isn't really going to be able to do

in case people haven't realized, he is saving brakes AND tires AND going faster around the track by simply smoothing out his braking, he is, in effect, learning how to manage his brakes/tires like a racing driver would be doing during a long race.

I'd like to have a racing driver to teach me too lol

you don't need higher temperature pads unless you're braking from a significantly higher entry speed, which the RX-8 with a stock-ish motor isn't really going to be able to do

in case people haven't realized, he is saving brakes AND tires AND going faster around the track by simply smoothing out his braking, he is, in effect, learning how to manage his brakes/tires like a racing driver would be doing during a long race.

I'd like to have a racing driver to teach me too lol

And what are your lap times at VIR????

The bottom line is that your decrease in lap times was not a result of less brake heat directly. It was a result of your being smoother and faster throughout the corner because YOU are no longer upsetting the car. When you learn to combine Smoooooth, HARD, LATE braking and smooth balance into, through, and out of the corner you will have it dicked.

Backing up your braking points will result in less brake heat because you are not accelerating as long down the straight resulting in braking at a slower speed. Less speed less Kinetic energy to transfer to the brakes.

Smooth: got it
Hard: I am braking hard on the initial pedal input (while not stabbing the brake)
Late: If I'm braking too late, I'm not able to taper off the brake while turning, because I'm still trying to shed speed.
Smooth balance: Turning whith the brake is doing this.
Out, I'm able to get out of the turn at a higher mph because of the momentum conserved. It's not a race to get on throttle earlier as everyone thinks it is. Sometimes you have to shed too much speed to "get on throttle earlier."

Heck, I'm trying to convey what I learned after sitting a full day with the former Chief Instructor at Brands Hatch, current Head Coach for Formula BMW USA, Winner '00 Gand Am Cup Watkins Glen, Winner, '98 Petit LeMans GT3 Road Atlanta, Lap Record Holder Formula Ford Hockenheimring, etc. etc. etc.

The observations I've noted are a result of a real day on the course (one of my 3 years of track day experiences), not internet hearsay.

The day I can do all of the above which I've bolded from your quote is the day you can call me Max Angelelli, driving a stiffly sprung Daytona Prototype on a full slick and flying saucers for brake rotors.

you don't need higher temperature pads unless you're braking from a significantly higher entry speed, which the RX-8 with a stock-ish motor isn't really going to be able to do


What are you talking about? You are saying that the stock pads are sufficient for a stockish motor RX8. That's laughable. The stock pads or even the Hawk Hp's would not last two laps at VIR if driven to the car's limits.

Some people confuse the car's limits with their's.

What are you talking about? You are saying that the stock pads are sufficient for a stockish motor RX8. That's laughable. The stock pads or even the Hawk Hp's would not last two laps at VIR if driven to the car's limits.

Some people confuse the car's limits with their's.

Nobody is saying the stock pad would hold up to the rigors of a track day.

HP Plus has a 900 deg. temp range. It holds up fine at Sebring when I go.
I've also run EBC Yellow, but actually prefer the pedal modulation of the HP Plus as a personal preference, therefore I keep using it.

Great report......smooth is definitely where it's at...but "smooth" is not slow, or soft.....smooth at the limit is very hard...you want to be using all the brakes...

The best way to get fast is to slow down corner entry till you can be smooth all the way..and then slowly speed it up till you are going faster and faster.

I was surprised how much brake is in this car........but there is nothing like a set of good higher temp pads once you need them

It was a result of your being smoother and faster throughout the corner because YOU are no longer upsetting the car.

I think that is the most important "take away".

Having everything in order on turn in allows getting on the gas earlier...which leads to higher off corner speed...which leads to significantly higher speed at the end of each acceleration zone. I'm not saying park it to get the car turned, so you can pick up the throttle, by any means. The trick is determining the optimum time to make the transition from throttle to brake...too deep, as SouthFL points out, and you exceed the friction circle on the front end and cannot effectively rotate the car to get it pointed on apex. So, you end up in too deep and waiting to get back on the gas. But, if you give it up too early, you haven't taken advantage of the entire acceleration zone and maximized your speed. Simple ideas, tougher to translate to mechanical (hand, foot) inputs on the various pedals:Eyecrazy:

Actually, for me it's easier to do it in the car than explain my thoughts on an internet board :lol:

Great report......smooth is definitely where it's at...but "smooth" is not slow, or soft.....smooth at the limit is very hard...you want to be using all the brakes...

The best way to get fast is to slow down corner entry till you can be smooth all the way..and then slowly speed it up till you are going faster and faster.
I was surprised how much brake is in this car........but there is nothing like a set of good higher temp pads once you need them

We pulled back the intial braking point to be able to be smooth on the trail brake segment, but the initial brake is hard. When correctly executed the trail brake segment is hard enough to get the car turning very well, without understeering (too hard and you're plowing), then the subtle release rotates the car.

I hope it isn't being understood that I'm braking softly.

Mid-day, I mentioned to Peter that we were on a hybrid compound instead of a race compound and he was rather pleased to hear that, having realized that we were doing what we were doing with what we had in the caliper.

btw southfl, all i see in your video is you showing off your smooth driving mechanics, i can't see the darn track in that little gap of a windshield! lol

I think that is the most important "take away".

Having everything in order on turn in allows getting on the gas earlier...which leads to higher off corner speed...which leads to significantly higher speed at the end of each acceleration zone. I'm not saying park it to get the car turned, so you can pick up the throttle, by any means. The trick is determining the optimum time to make the transition from throttle to brake...too deep, as SouthFL points out, and you exceed the friction circle on the front end and cannot effectively rotate the car to get it pointed on apex. So, you end up in too deep and waiting to get back on the gas. But, if you give it up too early, you haven't taken advantage of the entire acceleration zone and maximized your speed. Simple ideas, tougher to translate to mechanical (hand, foot) inputs on the various pedals:Eyecrazy:

Actually, for me it's easier to do it in the car than explain my thoughts on an internet board :lol:

BINGO!

btw southfl, all i see in your video is you showing off your smooth driving mechanics, i can't see the darn track in that little gap of a windshield! lol

Lol!

One of my favorite youtube ALMS clips has an excellent in-car video of trail braking. Starts at about 2:00 with the vettes. The audio is something to behold too. Crank up the volume and drool.
As for the braking, particularly in turns 3 and 4 at Laguna Seca, they seem to roll thru the corners as is needed in endurance racing and use throttle modulation to make the turn. Sometimes picking up the throttle all the way at track out. I guess this is how you avoid brake pad changes in a 4 hour race on a track that is hard on brakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLELrQUTE1w

One of my favorite youtube ALMS clips has an excellent in-car video of trail braking. Starts at about 2:00 with the vettes. The audio is something to behold too. Crank up the volume and drool.
As for the braking, particularly in turns 3 and 4 at Laguna Seca, they seem to roll thru the corners as is needed in endurance racing and use throttle modulation to make the turn. Sometimes picking up the throttle all the way at track out. I guess this is how you avoid brake pad changes in a 4 hour race on a track that is hard on brakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLELrQUTE1w

Great clip at 2:00, as mentioned, you can see the brake lights hold.

Touching upon picking up the throttle all the way at track out (especially in the horeshoes in this case), Here's an in-car vid of Peter driving at the Rolex 24 in '04....

Right click and save as
www.teamjuicyracing.com/vids/rolex2004a.wmv


In contrast, see how early he is getting on throttle during the qualifying lap...
http://www.goneoval.com/daytona2004.htm
Also, note the trail braking, especially at Turns 6 (getting back on to NASCAR Turn 2) and and Turn 1, coming off the Nascar tri-oval.

[QUOTE=SouthFL;2777140]
In contrast, see how early he is getting on throttle during the qualifying lap...
]

It's not a race to get on throttle earlier as everyone thinks it is. :Eyecrazy: Your post #17

[QUOTE=SouthFL;2777140]
In contrast, see how early he is getting on throttle during the qualifying lap...
]

It's not a race to get on throttle earlier as everyone thinks it is. :Eyecrazy: Your post #17

For the average joe who thinks getting on the throttle early is a priority over transitional balance, it is a fallacy to prioritize getting on the throttle early.

Now, to go back to your orginal statement of When you learn to combine Smoooooth, HARD, LATE braking and smooth balance into, through, and out of the corner you will have it dicked.

then, I agree with you, if you can do all of the above, you have it dicked.

Nobody is saying the stock pad would hold up to the rigors of a track day.

HP Plus has a 900 deg. temp range. It holds up fine at Sebring when I go.
I've also run EBC Yellow, but actually prefer the pedal modulation of the HP Plus as a personal preference, therefore I keep using it.

Good discussion, what were your times at Sebring if I may ask? I just got back from there and was wondering what other RX8 were doing at Sebring timewise.

[QUOTE=SouthFL;2777140]
In contrast, see how early he is getting on throttle during the qualifying lap...
]

It's not a race to get on throttle earlier as everyone thinks it is. :Eyecrazy: Your post #17


Remember, "getting on the throttle" does not mean "full throttle" or matting the pedal, but transitioning from velocity loss to velocity maintenence or gain...so, in effect, it IS a race to get on the throttle earlier, all other things being equal.

edit: ok, maybe I'm getting too into the sematics of what is being described...

[QUOTE=hogcar;2777648]


Remember, "getting on the throttle" does not mean "full throttle" or matting the pedal, but transitioning from velocity loss to velocity maintenence or gain...so, in effect, it IS a race to get on the throttle earlier, all other things being equal.

edit: ok, maybe I'm getting too into the sematics of what is being described...

What I've realized in lowering lap times is that (at least in my case) I was over slowing the car at entry and needed to allow it to run thru the corner. This actually changed my take on the importance of picking up the throttle and where.
Yeah, it's great to pick it up earlier but the key also involves carrying as much momentum into the corner while maintaining composure and balance.
This is moreorless the point I was trying to make with the ALMS clip earlier. They did more steering with the throttle than anything because of the momentum in and at the same time taking care of the brakes. Thus earlier on throttle, or heavy early throttle isn't needed per se.
This is especially true in our "momentum" cars.

In contrast, see how early he is getting on throttle during the qualifying lap...
http://www.goneoval.com/daytona2004.htm
Also, note the trail braking, especially at Turns 6 (getting back on to NASCAR Turn 2) and and Turn 1, coming off the Nascar tri-oval.[/QUOTE]

Just finished the clips.

Items to note
1. Missed shift/ wrong gear on the front straight during qualifying
2. During the first stint was in avoidable contact with three different cars. NOT the thing to do especially in a 24 hour race.:Eyecrazy:

[QUOTE=mwood;2778054]

What I've realized in lowering lap times is that (at least in my case) I was over slowing the car at entry and needed to allow it to run thru the corner. This actually changed my take on the importance of picking up the throttle and where.
Yeah, it's great to pick it up earlier but the key also involves carrying as much momentum into the corner while maintaining composure and balance.
This is moreorless the point I was trying to make with the ALMS clip earlier. They did more steering with the throttle than anything because of the momentum in and at the same time taking care of the brakes. Thus earlier on throttle, or heavy early throttle isn't needed per se.
This is especially true in our "momentum" cars.

If you think about it, if you are not either on the gas or on the brakes you are, by definition, coasting...So, unless you are coasting through turns, I would submit you must be on the throttle to "carry momentum"...that's what I'm talking about and why it IS imperative that you pick up the throttle as early as possible to maintain and increase velocity mid turn to track out to acceleration zone. That's also why I made my earlier point about semantics...;)

In contrast, see how early he is getting on throttle during the qualifying lap...
http://www.goneoval.com/daytona2004.htm
Also, note the trail braking, especially at Turns 6 (getting back on to NASCAR Turn 2) and and Turn 1, coming off the Nascar tri-oval.

Just finished the clips.

Items to note
1. Missed shift/ wrong gear on the front straight during qualifying
2. During the first stint was in avoidable contact with three different cars. NOT the thing to do especially in a 24 hour race.:Eyecrazy:
.[/QUOTE]

How is he in avoidable contact with guys divebombing his T6 turn in (including the SunTrust DP car)? He had already established that turn as his.

In T1, the Ferrari passed and turned in on the outer line, cutting off the guy in front of him to get back on line, thus causing the chain reaction.

Hogcar, have you ever driven T1 at Daytona? It's rather interesting in a pack of cars going wheel to wheel- I speak from experience, as that's where I attended race school in '05. Do you hold a competition racing license? I can at least say I have (SCCA Regional).

Heck, if you do have a competition background I'd merit the attitude and opinion you bring to discussion as more valid. But for now, all I know is that you are a guy behind a computer with a handle named Hogcar. Apologies ahead of time if you speak from experience.

[QUOTE=Senna;2778095]

If you think about it, if you are not either on the gas or on the brakes you are, by definition, coasting...So, unless you are coasting through turns, I would submit you must be on the throttle to "carry momentum"...that's what I'm talking about and why it IS imperative that you pick up the throttle as early as possible to maintain and increase velocity mid turn to track out to acceleration zone. That's also why I made my earlier point about semantics...;)

Agreed, car either should be on throttle or brake to some capacity- not coasting.

Hogcar, I stalked your post history and it seems like you do merit your words with experience. Apologies.

.

How is he in avoidable contact with guys divebombing his T6 turn in (including the SunTrust DP car)? He had already established that turn as his.

In T1, the Ferrari passed and turned in on the outer line, cutting off the guy in front of him to get back on line, thus causing the chain reaction.

Hogcar, have you ever driven T1 at Daytona? It's rather interesting in a pack of cars going wheel to wheel- I speak from experience, as that's where I attended race school in '05. Do you hold a competition racing license? I can at least say I have (SCCA Regional).

Heck, if you do have a competition background I'd merit the attitude and opinion you bring to discussion as more valid. But for now, all I know is that you are a guy behind a computer with a handle named Hogcar. Apologies ahead of time if you speak from experience.[/QUOTE]



Where do I start???

It begins with track awareness. NOT just your car but all those Red-misted fellows around you.

His first contact may not have been all his fault but he should have known that he was there and considering that it was a 24 hour race it is NOT worth risking your car for that position. The corner has plenty of room for two-wide racing. He should not have placed his car in that position.

His second contact was all his fault. He should have yielded to the LEAD car instead of chopping off his nose. He was either not aware that he was there or did not show the LEADER any respect, especially considering he was in the slower class. Again this is an endurance race, which is never won on the first stint.

The third contact again was his fault and avoidable. The car in front of him was checking up in a BRAKE zone. If it was a missed shift with someone directly behind then contact might be unavoidable. I think but cannot say to a certainty, but it appeared he might have been distracted by the car that passes them both on the
outside. It only takes a split second.

Where do I start???

It begins with track awareness. NOT just your car but all those Red-misted fellows around you.

His first contact may not have been all his fault but he should have known that he was there and considering that it was a 24 hour race it is NOT worth risking your car for that position. The corner has plenty of room for two-wide racing. He should not have placed his car in that position.
His second contact was all his fault. He should have yielded to the LEAD car instead of chopping off his nose. He was either not aware that he was there or did not show the LEADER any respect, especially considering he was in the slower class. Again this is an endurance race, which is never won on the first stint.

The third contact again was his fault and avoidable. The car in front of him was checking up in a BRAKE zone. If it was a missed shift with someone directly behind then contact might be unavoidable. I think but cannot say to a certainty, but it appeared he might have been distracted by the car that passes them both on the
outside. It only takes a split second.

T6 exit speed is extremely critical at Daytona as it sets up the entire stretch all the way to the bus stop chicane. As a general rule drivers won't be very friendly there and be willing to yield any position.

I don't care how important exit speed is out of the infield!!!:Eyecrazy: Finishing your stint let alone the entire 24 hours is light years ahead in terms of priorities. The 2 tenths of a second advantage that he might gain is not worth the risk!!!

He showed no courtesy to the LEADER, who was at least 10 seconds a lap faster.
I am sure that the SunTrust car was really impressed!!! :banghead:

Good discussion, what were your times at Sebring if I may ask? I just got back from there and was wondering what other RX8 were doing at Sebring timewise.

I haven't timed myself there during my last few trips up. About a year ago I was turning about 2:45 on a 220 treadwear street tire (Bridgestone S-03) and HP Plus pads.

I don't care how important exit speed is out of the infield!!!:Eyecrazy: Finishing your stint let alone the entire 24 hours is light years ahead in terms of priorities. The 2 tenths of a second advantage that he might gain is not worth the risk!!!

He showed no courtesy to the LEADER, who was at least 10 seconds a lap faster.
I am sure that the SunTrust car was really impressed!!! :banghead:

Yes. You are right sir. You are correct.




Thread back on track to braking now.

Just watched the videos!! Don't know about you guys but the adrenaline was flowing. I need to do that (24hrs) at least once before death.

Interesting discussion.