AlRedCar's Project Build Thread [Archive]

AlTitaniumCar

10-13-2008, 09:08 AM

I couldn't agree more with all of you! I completely realize that you can't just bolt on some parts and expect to go anywhere in the competition. What I'm trying to do at this point in the game is address the most basic criticisms I have with the car. I wanted to get some of the easier and more major "problems' out of the way early and then work my way around the entire car, crossing over every square inch of the car. This is why I said at the outset of this project that I expect to be involved with it for years, not months. Also, don't worry that this is going to be a straight bolt-on affair, I intend on putting this engineering education to work and building a good deal of custom pieces for the competition.

On a side note, I just returned from a two-day track event held by NASA (http://www.nasaproracing.com/) and I must say it's been one of the most important weekends in my car-enthusiast career! Aside from moving up the classes (HPDE1/2 to HPDE3) I met with a number of people who have shared a good deal of wisdom, along with just being great people. Primarily, Eric Meyer, the owner of Meyer Motorsports (http://meyer-motorsports.com/Home/Home.html) who invited my friends and I to his shop in Indianapolis to see what all is required to field a Koni Grand-Am car. We discussed suspension tuning, how to cure more serious ailments of the RX-8 in a racing situation, ECU calibration, etc. Also, we got to witness an RX-8 completely beat the competition during the group-A race on Saturday (nice!) Another benefit to meeting Eric (and his lead technician, Eric (confusing, no?)) is that I was given an open door into professional motorsports. I will be working as part of the pit crew for several of Eric's events this coming season, an opportunity that I didn't think I would ever have! I think that working with an actual motorsports group is going to be an Ace up my sleeve not only for the USCC competition, but also a fantastic way to start in a career in Motorsports!
Now, onto some photos:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Putnam%20Park%2010%2011%202008%2010%2012%202008/DSC_4132.jpg
This was the line up to get into Putnam Park Road Course at 7.30A. Quite the long line of cars and trailers... Thankfully NASA is a very efficient group and they moved us all along very quickly!

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Putnam%20Park%2010%2011%202008%2010%2012%202008/DSC_4135.jpg
This was the group that came from Purdue. The Evolution 7 (yes, a real 7 with the Ralliart RS2 package for any Lancer fans out there) belongs to my friend Dan, the Red RX-8 is yours truly, the blue R32 belongs to Anthony, the TiGray RX-8 (my first RX-8!) belongs to John (also known as DotHackRave on these boards) and the white STi belongs to Kevin.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Putnam%20Park%2010%2011%202008%2010%2012%202008/DSC_4145.jpg
Here's a shot of one of the Factory Five Racing Cobras that ran this weekend. FFR is a spec class run by NASA where competitors build a Factory Five Cobra and are limited to a set tire and engine (among other parameters). Some very exciting racing happened between these cars!

More photos to come later today, I need to get all unpacked from the weekend!

AlTitaniumCar

10-13-2008, 09:09 AM

Just noticed in the second picture, yes I am in my pajamas haha

dillsrotary

10-13-2008, 09:21 AM

good thread, look forward to the build.

Question though, will you be driving the car? Alot of compitition bring pro drivers

AlTitaniumCar

10-13-2008, 09:39 AM

I will definitely be driving the car, I've been doing autocross and high speed autocross/open track days for over 4 years now and I'm fairly confident in my driving. Also, I'm going to be learning a lot more these next couple years leading up to the competition, as I plan on going to as many events as possible!

AlTitaniumCar

10-13-2008, 10:19 AM

Here are some more photos from the weekend!

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Putnam%20Park%2010%2011%202008%2010%2012%202008/DSC_4191.jpg

A profile shot of the 8. The numbers, they are crooked.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Putnam%20Park%2010%2011%202008%2010%2012%202008/DSC_4168.jpg
A picture of the Evo being corner balanced, toe corrected, camber adjusted, etc. This is the first shot of Meyer Motorsports' shop. This is proof that racers/auto enthusiasts are a fantastic group - we just met Eric earlier that day and by the end of the day he had invited us to use his shop. Excellent!

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Putnam%20Park%2010%2011%202008%2010%2012%202008/DSC_4171.jpg
Here's a stripped ex-RX-8 race shell

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Putnam%20Park%2010%2011%202008%2010%2012%202008/DSC_4174.jpg
MM's machining area, lots of fun toys in here!

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Putnam%20Park%2010%2011%202008%2010%2012%202008/DSC_4175.jpg
The #30 car, currently getting a complete Motec management system installed.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Putnam%20Park%2010%2011%202008%2010%2012%202008/DSC_4178.jpg
The #16 car, which raced this weekend to break in the new engine. These guys go through engines and transmissions like water... No one said racing was cheap!

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Putnam%20Park%2010%2011%202008%2010%2012%202008/DSC_4180.jpg
Another shot of #16, note the Renesis in the front of the shot.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Putnam%20Park%2010%2011%202008%2010%2012%202008/DSC_4181.jpg
The transmission selection. In the middle they have a 2009 RX-8 transmission. Notably beefier as far as the casing is concerned, and I can only assume that the internals follow suit. Also, they have a top-load gearset design, where you remove a cover atop the transmission and you have full access to the gear train. Nice feature, about time more companies adopt this idea - Tremec has been doing it for years!

AlTitaniumCar

10-15-2008, 07:27 PM

Today was a good day friends.
All hail the turbocharger!

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/DSC_4192.jpg

Renesis07

10-15-2008, 08:11 PM

the turbo sold me....

subscribed ;)

Rotr8

10-15-2008, 08:11 PM

damn your gonna need all the better part of 9k rpms to feel that boost lag..

Rotr8

10-15-2008, 08:12 PM

also, I spy a 2nd gen MR2 hood up on that wall... now your tuggin at my heart strings...

dothackRAVE

10-15-2008, 08:27 PM

Dude, Meyer Motorsports are some seriously awesome people. He met me for 5mins, and he was gonna sell me parts already for half retail LOL!

3DZukini

10-15-2008, 08:28 PM

Alright, I gotta jump on the subscription bandwagon for this one. :)

Rotr8

10-15-2008, 08:59 PM

Dude, Meyer Motorsports are some seriously awesome people. He met me for 5mins, and he was gonna sell me parts already for half retail LOL!

probably because like the 100% of the aftermarket co.s out there they are hurting in sales and need every last dollar to keep thier racing efforts in the black...

dothackRAVE

10-15-2008, 09:09 PM

They don't sell aftermarket. They're purely a race team, and they are selling me parts only because they have spares lying about.

Go to their website. I don't know how they fund their efforts, but there isn't a single mention of any products to sell.

lilring

10-15-2008, 09:42 PM

wow this is amazing stuff. subscribing!!!!!

wmtodd

10-15-2008, 10:04 PM

I cant wait to see more pics... excited to see the progression.

Man, now I want a turbo.

california style

10-16-2008, 01:25 AM

Good luck! Keep everyone informed.....

AlTitaniumCar

10-16-2008, 09:47 AM

I just wanted to make a few comments on the Esmeril Kit as I unpacked it. First impression is wow. I've never seen such a complete turbo kit in my experience of working on cars, they truly have every aspect covered. Their solution to my main concern, fitting an oil return line, which usually necessitates drilling into the oil pan, is truly elegant. Esmeril supplies a new oil drain plug that has an integrated fitting for the oil drain line. Also, heat shielding is provided to protect lines an hoses under the hood, the exhaust components are incredibly stout and come heat-wrapped already, all lines and fittings are of the highest quality, the list goes on!
I recall hearing quite a bit of concern over the origins of the turbo as well and I must admit, I was a bit worried about buying a turbocharger that could not have the manufacturer's name disclosed. I checked the turbocharger thoroughly and I must say that the quality is definitely there! There is no shaftplay, the CHRA spins freely, there are no casting defects, again - Esmeril did their homework and it shows! I can't wait to get this kit installed so I can have some real power!

bosko

10-16-2008, 01:00 PM

Shout out the west lafayette. Purdue what what. Alumini in the house.

BTFU

ryank771

10-17-2008, 02:00 PM

Alec, I hate you. Subscribed!

Can't wait to see this in person -- make sure you come out next weekend to Putnam.

RA-Eight

10-17-2008, 05:32 PM

Awesomeness! Getting accepted into the USCC would be an amazing feat alone. Best of luck

vtfanatic69

10-17-2008, 09:36 PM

Subscribing to this, awesome stuff man.

AlTitaniumCar

10-18-2008, 08:58 AM

Alec, I hate you. Subscribed!

Can't wait to see this in person -- make sure you come out next weekend to Putnam.

I called Jeremy to see if I could instruct, hopefully I can get out there again! Putnam is such a fun track!

Thanks for all of the comments from all my loyal subscribers! haha
I'm going to go start the install now... there will be pictures!

lepichichi

10-18-2008, 09:26 AM

thats a nice turbo i want one!

05rex8

10-18-2008, 05:56 PM

have fun removing your stock manifold ;)

rockle3

10-18-2008, 06:11 PM

i wanna see this happen
i dont know much about renisis
but this sounds fun

good luck

x8tuner44

10-18-2008, 09:05 PM

Cant wait to see this done. Im putting a turbo kit togethor now, just waiting for the parts to come in.

AlTitaniumCar

10-23-2008, 10:33 AM

Just as a quick update, the turbo is all installed! I think we may have had the classic case of "too many chefs in the kitchen" with the install though... I need to go back and fix some mistakes before I pull it out of the garage... Then, it's time for 500 miles of mundane break-in style driving! Following the boring part, there shall be boost!

Rotr8

10-23-2008, 11:05 AM

yeah its always hard to resist...

ryank771

10-23-2008, 11:38 AM

alz0rz

10-23-2008, 11:48 AM

tasty.

AlTitaniumCar

10-25-2008, 05:05 AM

It's 5.49AM, the car runs!
After many "disassemblings" of the intake manifold (now a 15 min job) and mysterious resistance to starting, I determined that the engine was severely flooded. Most of this flooding, I imagine, was a direct result of having an entire fuel rail's worth of gasoline poured into the engine while the rail was being removed. 20+ minutes of cranking, following Mazda's incredibly effective (haha) dechoking procedure yielded only broken hearts. However, we would not be defeated by an enemy so familiar to the Mazda rotary engine! We split our ranks into two teams, one would go to McDonald's for much-needed nourishment, the other to the bastion of late night impulse buys, Wal-Mart to procure the finest starting fluid. We reconvened at we planned our attack over a meal fit for kings, kings with no real kingdom, or money to spend on a proper meal for that matter. We determined that one lucky vacuum line would be chosen to ingest the magical Prestone Ether.
As the rotors turned in their housings, you could feel the fuel sloshing about. Every rotation brought only more agonizing questions. When would it start? Will it start? Are my spark plugs fouled? Is this ether going to send me and my car sky-high? Did I forget to change my underwear today? Suddenly, after a donkey-choking amount of ether was sent through the intake manifold, a spark of hope was ignited. From the bowels of the rotary came a most beautiful sound. A sound that could only be described as a diesel engine thrown into a blender, with just a hint of sheer destruction. Immediately following this wonderful cacophony was a sweep of the tachometer's needle and the engine lived again! The plumes of smoke that billowed from the exhaust heralded the coming of a new age of power for the RX-8.
Rejuvenated, I set out to have the first drive and take in all that had happened. All the highs and the lows, the spills, the battles with spaces so tight, a professional spelunker would cringe. But through it all, we persevered and now we can reap the benefits of a turbocharged RX-8.

**DISCLAIMER: It's 6.04AM, I'm pretty sure the lack of sleep and exhaust fumes have made me a bit on the high side of things, but I hope you all enjoyed the story. Updates and video to come!**

StealthTL

10-25-2008, 05:11 AM

Sounds like all that ether had it's effect on your writing too!

S

enthegen

10-28-2008, 01:27 PM

I really enjoyed that story thanks:) Cant wait for pictures and vids.. I want my 8 to be turbo'd... oh how I <3 turbos.

bse50

10-28-2008, 01:38 PM

How will you be able to track the car with a so low wastegate and the coilovers?

AlTitaniumCar

10-29-2008, 12:27 AM

The wastegate does sit quite low, however, I may look into a more compact unit that will fit the application. Also, I don't plan on setting my ride height much lower than stock, as I've always thought that Mazda has the suspension geometry down pat - the main drive behind the coilovers is to get a stiffer spring rate, be able to control bump and rebound, and most importantly - corner balancing.

Side note, the car's in good shape now - just needs the fancy-schmancy Mazda fuel pump tool, which I should get a hold of Friday, after all of these God-forsaken exams...

bse50

10-29-2008, 02:53 AM

You're right, but when on a track there are times where you risk to scrape, even on a stock height. Some turns have higher borders and cutting them etc may be painful for your car. I would put the relocation on top of my priorities mostly because lowering the car a tiny bit (no useless showcar lowness...) will increase handling, and handling comes before power :)

gsmith

10-30-2008, 01:49 PM

Purdue? More like PurDon't! haha just kidding, I'm a Notre Dame engineer, I couldn't resist.

I'm really excited to see how everything turns out and can't wait for some pics! Keep up the good work.

Gray Ghost

11-03-2008, 08:27 PM

redapex

11-04-2008, 12:11 AM

Wait a second... Wheres the fit?

AlTitaniumCar

11-04-2008, 07:09 AM

Glad to see you are back in our neck of the woods. Hopefully Ryan and I can meet up with you sometime to check out the car. Sounds like it is a lot of fun. It would be interesting to see the difference with FI.

I thought all of you guys would be happy to hear I got back into an RX-8! I'll try to make it down to a meet sometime!

Wait a second... Wheres the fit?
Haha... that one's been gone for a while, then I bought a Mustang (fun car, but not a me car - definitely better than the older Mustangs). I had the Mustang for a month and a half to the day, then found myself signing papers on the RX-8 the day after my birthday. I couldn't stay away from it I guess!

AlTitaniumCar

11-04-2008, 07:10 AM

Oh and pictures of the install will be coming up soon, just been busy with school and such!

ryank771

11-04-2008, 08:30 AM

I thought all of you guys would be happy to hear I got back into an RX-8! I'll try to make it down to a meet sometime!

But the Fit still haunts me......:banghead:

AlTitaniumCar

11-04-2008, 10:14 AM

Oh, it haunts many, all across the country. That car crushed so many hopes and dreams haha

redapex

11-05-2008, 01:27 AM

I
Haha... that one's been gone for a while, then I bought a Mustang (fun car, but not a me car - definitely better than the older Mustangs). I had the Mustang for a month and a half to the day, then found myself signing papers on the RX-8 the day after my birthday. I couldn't stay away from it I guess!

Really? A mustang? You never took me as the mustang type:lol:

AlTitaniumCar

11-05-2008, 09:56 AM

That's why I bought the Mustang - I wanted to see what life outside the box is like. Clearly I didn't like it and came running back to the RX-8 haha

ryank771

11-05-2008, 10:03 AM

That's why I bought the Mustang - I wanted to see what life outside the box is like. Clearly I didn't like it and came running back to the RX-8 haha

Blah blah blah....where are the pics/vids you keep talking about? :nono:

lepichichi

11-05-2008, 10:10 AM

got any more pics?

AlTitaniumCar

11-06-2008, 11:21 AM

Alright, alright - enough delay! I finally got around to photobucket-ing my pictures and here are the choicest of the choice:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/The%20RX8%20Turbo%20Install/DSC_4200.jpg
Me, with a box of random turbo parts I received in the mail, I've been told that when all of these parts are installed, your car becomes noticeably more badass. I'll be the judge of that one.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/The%20RX8%20Turbo%20Install/DSC_4201.jpg
The turbo was installed within minutes.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/The%20RX8%20Turbo%20Install/DSC_4199.jpg
Me, looking surprisingly stoic as I remove the wheel

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/The%20RX8%20Turbo%20Install/DSC_4219.jpg
Poking around in the bumper, looking for a place to put all this boost.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/The%20RX8%20Turbo%20Install/DSC_4227.jpg
My friend Mike joining me for more stoic posing while removing the bumper support beam.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/The%20RX8%20Turbo%20Install/DSC_4209.jpg
My dog, and faithful companion, Diesel trying to comprehend the principles of turbocharging. Minutes after the photo was taken, he passed out, as the concept of positive pressure on the intake charge was simply too much for his canine brain to handle.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/The%20RX8%20Turbo%20Install/DSC_4237.jpg
Having small friends proved to be a boon in the install, as Chris was able to be placed in the engine bay to assist in the removal of the intake manifold. Note my friend Ben, giving the photographer the finger for no apparent reason, other than the jealousy associated with not having a turbocharged RX-8.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/The%20RX8%20Turbo%20Install/DSC_4231.jpg
A somewhat artistic photo of more working on the RX-8.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/The%20RX8%20Turbo%20Install/DSC_4242.jpg
Arguably the most enjoyable portion of the install, the intake manifold removal. I can now remove it within 15 minutes. Word of advice to all who want to turbocharge their car - make sure that all of the vacuum lines are secured! You won't want to have any line blow off the manifold due to boost, it really wouldn't prove to be an enjoyable experience.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/The%20RX8%20Turbo%20Install/DSC_4246.jpg
Test fitting the turbocharger into the engine bay, finding that all pipes lined up perfectly- score!

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/The%20RX8%20Turbo%20Install/DSC_4260.jpg
The semi-finished product, looking extra shiny. Semi- finished as the instructions I received seem to have been missing the section dealing with the reinstallation of the factory air pump. REINSTALL THE AIR PUMP, lest you want to have a good quarter-sized exhaust leak right off the exhaust manifold...

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/The%20RX8%20Turbo%20Install/DSC_4268.jpg
The prerequisite posing, a must have for any install. Note the grabbing of the crotch, signifying the new amounts of manliless bestowed upon my car.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/The%20RX8%20Turbo%20Install/DSC_4267.jpg
More posing, note the intensity of the adventure beard and exposing of boxers, indicating that much time was invested in the install and less time was invested in personal hygiene.

The stream of photos seemed to dwindle towards the middle of the install, as the photographer decided to get involved with the install, rather than take photos. Hope you enjoyed this glimpse into my install of the turbocharger. Once I get everything fine-tuned, there will be more media to come!

The full photoset can be seen here:http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/The%20RX8%20Turbo%20Install/

ryank771

11-06-2008, 12:02 PM

You are a geek. A very mechanical and intelligent person, but a geek non-the-less. Nice pics bud -- now let's get some seat time and post some vids of it!

Any chance of doing some fine tuning and getting some dyno pulls in?

3DZukini

11-06-2008, 01:33 PM

I think you're supposed to put on at least 500 miles at 2psi and slowly increase after that.... it's probably going to be a while before that dyno, am I right?

P.S. I hate you.... in a jealous of your turbo kind of way. :)

imput1234

11-06-2008, 03:24 PM

Its gonna be fast, lol

GTConversion

11-06-2008, 03:39 PM

Haha your witty commentary is the best part. Subscribed.

AlTitaniumCar

11-11-2008, 10:45 PM

Quick update for the day -
Esmeril Racing Ignition kit installed! Haven't had a chance to run the car as of yet - I'm waiting on a couple little toys to come my way - but the install was very easy and the coil set looks to be top notch. Can't wait to try it out and see what it's like to have a more than adequate ignition system on the RX-8. My main concern right now its that winter is just about to rear its arguably-for-automotive-enthusiasts ugly head... 380rwhp in Midwestern snows... this sounds like a perfect setting for some form of automotive hoonage. I promise that there will be videos soon!

05rex8

11-11-2008, 11:23 PM

congrats!

Highway8

11-11-2008, 11:59 PM

You are going to get mixed opinions on the esmirel turbo but I think you have done your research and picked a good match for your needs other then the wastgate location. I dont know why people tried to turn this into a SC vs Turbo thread.

I think you are going to loose some power and have high IAT with that airfilter being under the hood and right above the radiator. You should cut a hole in the radiator support and either build a box to house the filter and pull air from outside the engine bay or move the filter out of the engine bay. Either way, the lower air temp you start with the lower IAT you end up with. You can test this yourself when you dyno the car. Once you have it dialed in and you have several runs with similar numbers, put the hood down and run it a few more times. You will see your power drop as your IAT go up.

I am sure you know that heat will be a concern of yours. You might need bigger oil coolers or at minimum get the greddy oil pan, has cooling fins and holds almost a quart more oil if I remember right.

And of course upgraded radiator and water pump. Only one option on the water pump and for the radiator the BHR is the best in my opinion and many will agree.

Good luck and there are a lot of resources on this site to help you and point you in the right direction. A few members have TC 8's and track regularly.

SiLVeRE8

11-12-2008, 04:39 AM

nice cant wait till the videos

Mspeedpro

11-12-2008, 12:32 PM

Very great buildup thread, the pics are hillarious.

Good luck and keep the updates coming!

x8tuner44

11-15-2008, 09:03 AM

hey, can you tell me what kind of battery is in the esmeril kit and the specs on it. Thanks

AlTitaniumCar

11-15-2008, 10:25 AM

I know the battery's a Deka brand and if I remember correctly it has 270 Cold Cranking Amps. It's pretty light and it gets the job done!

Ross_Dawg

12-03-2008, 01:44 AM

updates?

AlTitaniumCar

12-03-2008, 10:44 AM

Updates indeed...
It's been a very long time since I've even come into this thread, as I've spent the past month trying to get this wonderful turbo kit working... Thanks to the wonderful tech support of Esmeril Racing, (sarcasm) the project's come along very smoothly (more sarcasm)
There was a small hiccup in the install, where when I drove the car I would feel a "wall" at 6000rpm that car wouldn't accelerate past. Naively, I assumed that it was an issue with the tuning and possibly a spark plug failure. I decided to upgrade to the Esmeril racing kit, you know, the one that doesn't have a plug and play harness (hats off to BHR and MazdaManiac for making a great looking ignition kit for a lower price point, too bad I ordered before I could find any reviews or pictures of BHR's offering)
After ordering the Esmeril ignition kit, I decided to poke around under the hood a little bit to see if there was anything glaringly wrong. And there was.

Now we all know that the RX-8 injects oil during the engine cycle, so to burn a little oil would seem natural. I never expected to burn through two quarts in 30 miles however. The funny thing is, the oil wasn't being burned at all, but rather redistributed throughout the engine bay...
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4271.jpg
Notice the oil all over the charge pipes, fuse box, hood, firewall, alternator, engine, radiator, chassis, I could go on and on, but I imagine you get the picture by now.
So two cans of brake cleaner and a tub of paint thinner later (used to clean out the intercooler and pipes) I had the engine bay looking almost as good as new. If nothing else I figured this was Esmeril's way of giving me a free rust proofing in the engine bay, oh joy!

I gave that non-descript Chinese knock-off turbo the benefit of the doubt , thinking, again naively, "How could a new turbo go bad so soon?", so I ran a little series of tests to find the source of this heinous oil leak. I took the PCV lines out of the turbo inlet pipe and routed them to a catch can (the tried-and true Gatorade bottle), thinking that a combination of positive crankcase pressure and the slight vacuum at the inlet of the turbo was essentially pulling oil through the turbo. So I drove another 30 miles to see if I could replicate the problem. And replicate it I did, the cherry on top of another oil-filled engine bay is that the catch can that I had jerry-rigged was dry... So I turned my now completely enraged gaze upon the aforementioned non-descript Chinese knock-off turbo. I pulled the pipes and this time, I had my trusty Nikon with me.

DISCLAIMER: The images that you are about to see are not for the weak of stomach, those who don't like to see oil in places where it doesn't belong, fans of cheap Chinese knock-offs, or those who generally don't like seeing other people's car-related misery. Be forewarned, you may never want to buy from a company that relies entirely on knock-off parts "from a reputable manufacturer"

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4273.jpg
This first image shows the blow off valve (how do you say TiAl knock-off in Mandarin?) and yes I did safety wire a rag over its outlet to try and contain the oily atmospheric venting that would happen every time the valve opened. Note the amout of oil all over the fuse box, battery, and charge pipe.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4276.jpg
This is the rag, which was new and clean before I put it on the blow off valve. Before you ask, yes, my fingers are like this for a reason.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4277.jpg
More oily mess distributed by the blow off valve. Don't worry kids, it only gets better from here!

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4274.jpg
The oil-filled blow off had a far-reaching effect...

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4287.jpg
The oil found a place to rest all over my engine bay, here's a view of the battery tray. Fun!

Brace yourselves for the next one loyal readers, it's a hideous sight...
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4279.jpg
Now, what the hell is this oil doing just resting in my turbo discharge pipe? Hmmmmm it seems to my that someone in quality control at ye olde Chinese Turbo Knock-Off Factory (it's a real business, look it up) skipped work the day this "TURBOCHARGER" was made. Word from the wise here: if you ever get a turbo that has the part number "SUPER-T70" with a "serial number" of "T3/T4", do yourself a favor and stay away from it, avoid it like a psychotic STD-infested hooker with a chainsaw.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4281.jpg
Don't worry, the oil was all over the outside as well.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4292.jpg
Here's a view of the Blow Off Valve pipe. Yes, that's black gold in there!

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4293.jpg
Here's the MAF pipe, accompanied by a penguin we had in the garage.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4294.jpg
Speaks for itself, really.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4298.jpg
So here's my reasoning on this one - the designers of the turbo, with their recently purchased engineering degrees, decided that a throttle body, like any moving part, works better with lubrication. Therefore, having a compressor seal on the turbo that allows for oil to be injected into the compressed air discharge will improve throttle response. Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4299.jpg
No pipe was safe from the carnage.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4312.jpg
Now this is a little difficult to see, but this is the intercooler (assumedly of the same quality of the other components) with a nice pool of oil at the bottom. How deep you ask? Well it was resting at a pretty inch and a half, as measured by the factory dipstick (the one that measures oil level in the engine and was never intended to see the oil level in you intercooler) I imagine at the same meeting that was held to determine how to improve throttle body response, the brainiac engineers decided that lubricated air must move faster, again like anything lubricated with oil.

Now let's turn our attention to the culprit, the turbo... if you could call it that at this point - I prefer forced lubrication machine.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4313.jpg
Here's a shot of the compressor out, note the oily drool on its mouth...

DISCLAIMER: I worked at Honeywell Turbo Technologies, as an Engineering intern for 5 months. I am used to pulling apart turbochargers and I know what to look for with failure, don't go pulling apart turbos unless you want to risk damaging them.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4315.jpg
Here's the compressor backplate and compressor wheel. Please note the horrendously oversized gasket used to "seal" the compressor housing.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4319.jpg
Here's a view of the compressor housing, again note the high amount of oil, although any amount of oil in a compressor housing can be considered a high amount...

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4323.jpg
And last, but certainly not least, this oil was leaking into the turbine housing as well, as indicated by the white residue on the inner walls of the turbine outlet (down pipe)

Don't worry kids, there's more story to come...

Rotard

12-03-2008, 10:59 AM

absolutely brutal..

pdxhak

12-03-2008, 11:32 AM

wow...really sorry about the issues you are having with this kit.

AlTitaniumCar

12-03-2008, 12:01 PM

So now we've all seen the pictures, but the story goes on...

Early in my last post, I mentioned Esmeril's tech support. Here's the transcript of a conversation I had with the lead engineer of Esemeril, dated November 3, 2008 12.34PM:

"Christian,
I just wanted to check and see if you have been receiving my calls lately. After installing the Esmeril Racing turbo kit, I've noticed that there has been a very large amount of oil being sprayed out of the blow off valve. Initially I thought this was merely a problem with the oil line routing to the compressor inlet pipe. I then made an impromptu catch can to try and isolate the problem. In addition, I removed all of the charge pipes and the intercooler to find pools of oil in each pipe and a very large amount of oil in the intercooler (approximately 0.25in of oil in the end tanks, measured via the factory dipstick) I cleaned all of the piping and the intercooler then reassembled the kit to see if the problem would return.
Sadly enough, the problem seems to be worse than before, with more oil covering all parts of the engine bay, with a visible oil mist being ejected from the blow off valve. Also, there is oil pooling in the compressor housing of the turbocharger, leading me to believe that there is an oil leak coming from the backplate of the compressor housing. I have photos of all the piping and the turbocharger showing the oil condition. For an idea of how much oil has been lost, I started the drive with a full oil system, now the oil level reads below the LOW mark on the dipstick.
I hope that you will respond quickly as I am now without any reliable mode of transportation and I will not be using this turbocharger any longer for the risk of causing damage to my engine is far too great.

I look forward to hearing back from you soon.

Alec Cervenka"

Here's his reply:

"

"

.....
Anyone see a problem here? I guess conversation was the wrong term here... More of a monologue on my part.

I decided I would try to contact Jason of Mazdaparts.com, the original retailer of the kit.

Re: Esmeril Turbo Kit Problems
Hi Alec,

Unfortunately Christian has been very busy over the past week at an engineering conference.

I'll be happy to answer you.

Please check that the check valve is orientated properly. If backwards oil could possibly make its way into the turbo. We have no record of this being installed backwards to say for sure or that it would even cause this much oil loss but in theory it may cause oil to exit.

If there is an issue with turbo we would not be able to make a determination until we inspect it.

Esmeril Racing has never had any problems with oil leaking and definitely not like yours. We personally inspect every turbo that goes into the kits and have an extensive checkpoint system for all components.

There is a warranty for new parts to be in working order...we are well beyond that warranty period so you or the original owner will need to arrange with us to have it inspected and possibly repaired at our normal shop rates. If in fact the turbo is damaged or non-repairable we will be able to acquire a new one for you at a reasonable price. All payments will be handled through Mazdaparts.com unless otherwise notified.

There is a possibility it was damaged during shipping which is why customers should immediately inspect their package once they receive it. In that case the shipper would reimburse for cost of inspection and repair. If it was damaged during the initial shipment the original owner would need to work with us to file a claim. If it was damaged in subsequent shippings you will need to handle the claim with whoever shipped it to you. It is very possible we are beyond the allowable claim period by UPS for the initial shipment.

We hope the check valve is the cause of this problem and please contact us if that is the case as we will add that to our troubleshooting guide.

Best Regards,

Jason
Mazdaparts.com
Esmeril Racing

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlTitaniumCar
Jason,
I have been trying to get a hold of Christian for about a week now in regards to problems I've been having with the Esmeril kit. Here's a copy of the email I sent to him yesterday:

"Christian,
I just wanted to check and see if you have been receiving my calls lately. After installing the Esmeril Racing turbo kit, I've noticed that there has been a very large amount of oil being sprayed out of the blow off valve. Initially I thought this was merely a problem with the oil line routing to the compressor inlet pipe. I then made an impromptu catch can to try and isolate the problem. In addition, I removed all of the charge pipes and the intercooler to find pools of oil in each pipe and a very large amount of oil in the intercooler (approximately 0.25in of oil in the end tanks, measured via the factory dipstick) I cleaned all of the piping and the intercooler then reassembled the kit to see if the problem would return.
Sadly enough, the problem seems to be worse than before, with more oil covering all parts of the engine bay, with a visible oil mist being ejected from the blow off valve. Also, there is oil pooling in the compressor housing of the turbocharger, leading me to believe that there is an oil leak coming from the backplate of the compressor housing. I have photos of all the piping and the turbocharger showing the oil condition. For an idea of how much oil has been lost, I started the drive with a full oil system, now the oil level reads below the LOW mark on the dipstick.
I hope that you will respond quickly as I am now without any reliable mode of transportation and I will not be using this turbocharger any longer for the risk of causing damage to my engine is far too great.

I look forward to hearing back from you soon.

Alec Cervenka"

I have not gotten ANY response at all. For spending this amount of money, I would expect a turbocharger that would not fail.

Please get back to me as soon as possible so we can resolve this issue.

Alec Cervenka

I then had Jason call me, so that I could explain the circumstances of the failure, as I felt that the message wasn't clear via PM. What followed was a half hour of little to no progress. Quick bit of background : I did purchase this kit second hand, however this kit was still all in it s original packaging, and had never been used. I'm sure that the seller could vouch for this.

So I explained what happened with the turbo failure, why I believe that the compressor seal was blown (which it is, I have no doubt at all), what would cause the compressor seal to blow, etc. I then requested that Esmeril replace or repair my turbocharger, free of charge, as this is clearly a manufacturing defect, as, again, the kit was NEVER installed prior to my purchase. I was then told that, in all of Esmeril's benevolence, I would be allowed to buy a new turbo for ONLY $550. At this point, why would anyone in their right mind want to buy another no-name knock-off turbo?

This is when Alec gets upset.

The conversation follows this path for a while, with Jason staunchly denying that the skilled craftsmen who built this fine engineering marvel of a turbo could have overlooked the compressor seal. Therefore obviously, the turbo was damaged in shipping.

....
........

Again, referring back to my time at Honeywell, compressor seals can't get damaged in shipping. The only conceivable way that the compressor seal would be damaged is if the turbo was dropped from ~20 feet, unprotected. At this point, however, the entire turbo would be damaged, the housings would deform/crack, etc. Long and short of it - a securely packaged turbocharger shipped across country would not get damaged in a way that only the internals would show signs of wear. It is not possible.

At this point it's suggested that the previous owner of my kit, a member on these boards, had disassembled the turbo for the sole purpose of raining on my turbocharged RX-8 parade. Preposterous. I listened for a while to this grand story of how before shipping the kit, Michael (the seller) decided he would become a saboteur and ruin my compressor seal, all the while I have this image in my head of a Snidely Whiplash-esque character tearing down my turbo.
http://www.conversationmarketing.com/Snidely%2BWhiplash.png

The conversation then turns (again) to a defense of the integrity of the parts used in the turbo kit. I then delve into the merits of using name-brand parts and then cite my problems with the replica industry. I then cite my main problems with the design:

1. Twin Scroll turbocharger on a single scroll manifold.
Anyone still curious why the "SUPER T-70" takes so long to spool on this kit? Well imagine, if you will a single scroll exhaust manifold, essentially one large opening that feeds into the turbine inlet. Now the way a twin-scroll turbocharger works is by using two separate volutes in the turbine housing that serve the purpose of evening out exhaust pulses by the time the exhaust gases meet the turbine wheel. However, this requires that the exhaust fed to the turbine housing is divided to two streams (thereby supplying the "twin" in "twin scroll") and this division is performed at the exhaust manifold.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h115/Mr2turbored/adaptor5.jpg
Here, a twin scroll housing on the left, with a single scroll on the right.

The Esmeril kit ships with a single scroll manifold and a twin scroll turbine housing

Let me let this one sink in a bit....

Essentially you've placed a a wall in the exhaust flow, introducing a high amount of turbulence into the turbine housing. This does terrible things for spool and response. Fairly clear why boost comes in so late in this kit?

2. APC air filter.
This disgusts me. Charge a person $7000 and you give them an APC air filter. But you don't want them to know it's an APC filter, so what do you do? You pull off any paper or stickers in the packaging that would indicate that it's an APC product, then put the filter back into the bare plastic packaging. No one will ever know, right? That is, until someone goes into Advance Auto, sees an APC filter on the wall that is THE EXACT SAME FILTER FROM YOU $7000 TURBO KIT.
http://www.ekeystone.com/images/00/partimages/A50/151410_11_12.jpg
Would you trust this on your RX-8?

3. Cheap Chinese Knock-Off No Name Turbocharger.
Now I know why Esmeril outright refused to say where they sourced the turbocharger from, because the company DOESN'T HAVE A NAME! Come on, people, do not make the same mistake that I did. Buy a Greddy kit and the MazdaManiac upgrade, buy the PTP Turbo kit, buy RotoRocks' kit, hell I don't even like the idea of superchargers on this engine (personal preference) but buy the Petit Supercharger kit, but under no circumstances, for the love of all that is holy, buy this kit. That being said, if someone wants to give it to you for free, you can take it and do what I've been forced to do: make lemonade with rotten knock-off lemons (more on that later)
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/The%20RX8%20Turbo%20Install/DSC_4192-1.jpg

4. Knock-Off wastegate and blow of valve
TiAl is a pretty decent company, I've only heard good things about them. Again, after working at Honeywell, I know that their stuff works. They say imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, but with that being said, at the end of the day, a knock-off part is just that.

5. V-Bands, V-Bands everywhere
V-Bands on the turbine outlet, V-Bands connecting the downpipes, V-Bands connecting the wastegate to downpipe, V-bands connecting the wastegate to the exhaust manifold, what ever happened to flanged fittings? V-Bands leak, it's inherent in their design, but that's overcome by a V-Band's ease of use, which is why V-Bands are good for racecars and heavy equipment, or any application that requires a fairly regular maintenance interval, where quick removal of components is paramount. Actually, at this point, the V-Bands have been a boon! I retract this statement and thank you for the foresight that you will have to remove parts of this kit regularly!

This goes on and on, finally with Jason saying that he'll have the head of Esmeril's engineering call me so we could discuss what to do from here... This was on November 5th, 2008.

Still waiting on that call!

I also called and sent emails to the Lead Engineer, hoping for any response, but to no avail.

So, take away from this what you will kids, though it is inherently a fairly clever design, it's failure lies in its reliance on knock-off parts, so as you can all imagine, I am not a big fan of this kit.

Ross_Dawg

12-03-2008, 12:03 PM

good god... when I meant updates I thought I was going to get a dyno sheet with 400 to the ground... yikes!!

AlTitaniumCar

12-03-2008, 12:09 PM

I only wish I could post something like that up...

Ross_Dawg

12-03-2008, 01:19 PM

lol nice sig ;)

so what's the next step... just keep calling everyday until you get ahold of the pres. or what?

AlTitaniumCar

12-03-2008, 02:31 PM

Well, sadly I've given up all hope on ever hearing from Esmeril again, so I guess I'll just boycott their products. As I mentioned earlier with the making lemonade with rotten lemons, I've actually replaced quite a few parts of the kit, so this story may have a happy ending yet...

pdxhak

12-03-2008, 03:29 PM

GL dude! I hate to see anyone put a lot effort and money into a project just to have it fail.

Noble Wolf

12-03-2008, 04:06 PM

wow... really disappointing. Good luck on finding a solution....

pdxhak

12-03-2008, 04:15 PM

I do not want Esmeril to get lynched but ChrisRX8PR posted not too long ago. It would cool if he posted in this thread to tell his side of the story.

ivory8

12-03-2008, 04:58 PM

dear lord i hope things get straightened out for ya! more updates when anything new happens!

05rex8

12-03-2008, 07:28 PM

:eek:

hey guys who wants to make an ebay turbocharger kit for the stupid honda kids and rip them all off?! who's with me?

seriously...what a joke. GL Al...hope this gets sorted out for you.
now I don't feel so bad about my crappy GReddy turbo kit. At least the turbo lasts around 12000-15000 miles :lol2:

ducttape4054

12-04-2008, 08:15 PM

dam i was gonna order the esmiril kit nxt month! not no more

AlTitaniumCar

12-04-2008, 09:06 PM

Well again, the design of the kit is well thought out, it was just the cheap parts of the kit that needed to be replaced. I actually upgraded the turbo to a Garrett GT3076 ( a REAL AUTHENTIC turbo), replaced the air filter with a K&N (again, authentic) and everything fits now.

However, this economy business has got me down and I think paying for grad school is more important right now, so the kit is up for sale for any buyer. PM me if you're interested.

05rex8

12-04-2008, 10:25 PM

^wow...sorry to see your plans changing

Ross_Dawg

12-05-2008, 12:26 AM

wow dude sorry to hear that... so much trouble for nothing... good luck and you're making a great choice in paying fo grad. school instead of the Money Pit :)

WhiteSnowflake8

12-05-2008, 01:09 AM

Looks familiar?? ;
http://www.xs-power.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=40&products_id=155

Ross_Dawg

12-05-2008, 01:53 AM

lol what a POS

Bunique

12-05-2008, 02:13 AM

wow!

AlTitaniumCar

12-06-2008, 01:32 AM

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=161853

Here's the for sale thread! Again - the bad bits have been replaced and the kit will work - I'm selling so I can help pay for school now.

Derex'8

12-06-2008, 07:24 PM

Hey AL your problems sound very similar to Tdiddy's issues..were you able to verify that there were no kind of kinks or blockage to the crankcase vent hose? is

Check it out here (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=132043&page=14&highlight=oil)post # 333

AlTitaniumCar

12-07-2008, 01:43 PM

I'll check that post out, but I did find something both disheartening and reassuring yesterday... The electrical connector to the Oil Metering Pump was completely broken. I worked on another RX-8 recently that also had a malfunctioning OMP and it showed symptoms very similar to mine, so hopefully this will be an easy fix!

AlTitaniumCar

12-07-2008, 01:45 PM

Just checked that post, and my crankcase hose has been all squared away from the beginning, thanks for the heads up though! It's comforting to see I'm not the only one with a bum turbo install haha

AlTitaniumCar

12-17-2008, 10:44 AM

For those of you loyal readers who haven't found it yet...

AlRedCar's Sale Thread
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?p=2772907

Sounds a bit like this project won't get a chance to succeed, but it looks like you guys get the possibility to upgrade your own cars!

MazdaManiac

12-18-2008, 02:12 AM

Flashwing

12-18-2008, 03:06 AM

Alec I'm really sorry to see what happened with your install. I certainly hope one way or another everything gets worked out.

AlTitaniumCar

12-18-2008, 09:41 AM

Wow. I wish I didn't have to say "I told you so", but didn't you read what I did to them in their own thread back in August?

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=2586057&postcount=1773

Actually, that whole thread is a hoot to read from about post 1600 on.
So sad.

I actually never read that bit, but I must say, I admire your work haha - I'm still a bit surprised that the gurus over at Esmeril haven't come into my thread to clear their name and support their fantastic products... I guess that's what I get when I don't do enough research.

Jedi54

12-18-2008, 12:45 PM

^^^ linky no worky.

yikes Al, sorry to read everything that happened to you.

truemagellen

12-18-2008, 12:49 PM

AIredcar's kit was bought used independent of us. We originally sold the kit a year ago.

We have never had one part failure on our turbo kits and we have no way of tracking what happened to that kit over the past year as it passed through the original customers hand and then through a transaction to the second customer.

We have had parts damaged by shipping in the past and since we test every kit before boxing it up we determined the only point of failure could have been from shipping. Whether it was damaged in the original shipment or the subsequent one between the original owner and AIred's is unknown.

We replace all faulty parts free of charge for 90 days which begins immediately after we ship the kit. It was well out of the warranty time frame.

RedefineRX8

12-18-2008, 01:04 PM

wow MM, I can't believe I missed that thread before... That one post was epic..

MazdaManiac

12-18-2008, 01:08 PM

We have had parts damaged by shipping in the past and since we test every kit before boxing it up we determined the only point of failure could have been from shipping.

I would be curious to hear your method for doing this. Do you install the turbo on a car and run it? How about the wastegate? How do you "test" that?
How do you "test" the manifold?

There is no "test" for the failure he experienced. The only "test" is to use good parts in the first place and fall back on the reputation, track record and warranty of a known good manufacturer.

And, as noted, there is absolutely NO WAY to damage an oil seal on a turbo in shipping without actually destroying the entire turbo.
No way whatsoever.

We replace all faulty parts free of charge for 90 days which begins immediately after we ship the kit. It was well out of the warranty time frame.

Wouldn't it be easier in the long run to replace the faulty parts before you ship the kit.
You know you are playing with fire. Is it worth it?

ChrisRX8PR

12-18-2008, 01:18 PM

Hello everyone,

I would like to add to Jason's statement that first of all there is absolutely no evidence that the oil was caused by the turbo. All that is known is that there is oil in the intercooler piping and exhaust piping, turbo etc. This does not mean that the source of the oil is the turbo. If there was oil in the intercooler/intake piping it would obviously be ingested by the engine and subsequently spewed out the exhaust manifold reaching the turbo anyways which means the turbo would get bathed in oil. I know this because it happened to me about 5 years ago on a different car I had. I kept sending the turbo out to rebuild(3 times) and it kept happening. It ended up being a crakcase pressure issue, not the turbocharger.

The turbo in question was never sent back to us for inspection, instead it was assumed that it was the source of the oil. The only way to determine whether it was the turbo or not was to install a different one or for us to install it in one of our properly installed kits but the customer decided to sell the kit instead. It could've been as simple as a incorrect connection of hoses to the intake or an inverted check valve (we include one in the kit and installation is explained in the manual). Tdiddy had similar problems with a different brand turbo kit. Either way, if it was the turbo this would be the first such situation we have encountered on the many kits we have sold which is more than can be said of many other vendors. Being that the kit was shipped out almost to the original customer almost a year before the current owner bought it and we had no control of where it was stored, if it was dropped, or if it suffered shipping damage we could not be held liable.

I hope this is well understood.

It's quite unfortunate but not unexpected for some people to grasp onto anything they can to defame the current leader in RX-8 development.....all I have to say is, if anyone can do better do it with actions, not tactics and then post some proof of it, not theory. We have our opinions on other products yet we refrain from going on their threads and attempting to defame them simply because we understand that ours speak for themselves and we just have to wait it out until people start noticing. Throwing fits because you don't like something or because it is different to what you are attempting to sell really isn't a part of our business strategy. Instead we don't sell stuff that we haven't tested and we don't make claims based on theory, we claim what we know for a fact is doable based on testing and we have yet to have a direct customer that ended up unhappy with us and that works for me :)

This will be my last post on the subject, it has gotten well out of hand and gone long enough. I have explained our position on the subject, from now on the rest is of no matter to me.

Best regards,

Chris

MazdaManiac

12-18-2008, 01:25 PM

It's quite unfortunate but not unexpected for some people to grasp onto anything they can to defame the current leader in RX-8 development.

You must be kidding.

yet we refrain from going on their threads

This is not your thread.

ChrisRX8PR

12-18-2008, 01:37 PM

You must be kidding.

This is not your thread.

:)....Prove me otherwise and I will take it back....

Read under my nickname...there is a reason that is there....

truemagellen

12-18-2008, 01:38 PM

I would be curious to hear your method for doing this. Do you install the turbo on a car and run it? How about the wastegate? How do you "test" that?

The wastegate we test with an air/vacuum gauge. This is the standard test for testing a wastegate...since you are such an 'internet expert' you should have known this.

_

ChrisRX8PR

12-18-2008, 01:45 PM

I almost forgot....

We are talking about the wastegate that has been withstanding over 700whp (up to 1000whp now and then) in the 3 rotors from Puerto Rico for 4 years, non-stop usage, daily and track driven....

it must be real crap! :)

I am officially signing out of this idiocracy, I have much more productive things to do like sell/make kits.

Thanks for the support of those that support us.

Chris

Elara

12-18-2008, 01:59 PM

Vendors should not be arguing or denigrating other vendor's products on here. This isn't even something we should have to say.

MazdaManiac

12-18-2008, 02:32 PM

Hmm. The other thread went away...

Zelse

12-18-2008, 03:04 PM

lol just started reading this today. First.. to AlTitaniumCar, sweet journal but broman..just make a blog like I have it. Easier, easier to read, presentable..looks sweet, you know? Good stuff and definitely love reading this. As for the guys arguing over the turbo... lol. All I'm saying is "Go Jeff" because I just saw pwn sauce being spilt everywhere.

AlTitaniumCar

12-18-2008, 03:08 PM

The turbo in question was never sent back to us for inspection, instead it was assumed that it was the source of the oil. The only way to determine whether it was the turbo or not was to install a different one or for us to install it in one of our properly installed kits but the customer decided to sell the kit instead.

I INSTALLED A NEW TURBO FROM A REAL MANUFACTURER AND THERE WAS NO OIL IN MY ENGINE BAY.

Conclusive evidence much?

AlTitaniumCar

12-18-2008, 03:18 PM

Zelse

12-18-2008, 03:23 PM

..... I take it you didn't like the blog idea then. LOL

MazdaManiac

12-18-2008, 03:46 PM

Master of RX-8 design and source of all things truthful, how much time did you spend on eBay finding these fantastic parts?

Well, in my now-deleted posts in their now-deleted public thread, I had links to E-Bay auctions for all the primary bits.
I think it took about 5 or 6 minutes. :eyetwitch

ChrisRX8PR

12-18-2008, 03:57 PM

Also, how has this gone on long enough? You never replied to the email I sent or the ~20 phone calls I made? For all intents and purposes, you just stormed into the party as the "leader of RX-8 development" and spouted off from your seemingly overflowing font of knowledge. Tell me, tell me O great leader - why a twin volute turbine housing on a manifold designed for a single volute turbine housing? Oh great one, why the APC air filter? Master of RX-8 design and source of all things truthful, how much time did you spend on eBay finding these fantastic parts?

I'm going to go build a shrine to our great leader with my broken turbo as the base. If you need me, I'll be praying to the god of soon-to-be-needing-rebuilt-engines-on-account-of-cheap-parts with other subscribers of the Esmeril faith.

My reply was not directed at you. It was directed at people that are not involved and are just here to troll. I understand your situation, you had something that didn't work, hence why I hadn't tried to go against you or your tread. If you changed the turbo and it went away then it was definitely the turbo, I have no doubt, and I never said it wasn't. I just said that it hadn't been proven(which you just did) and that it could be a number of other things which it totally could. At no point was I claiming that you were making it up. I've had turbos leak from turbonetics right out of the box too, its no big deal and they replace them for new units because it simply was one that leaked through quality control.

Unfortunately I did not sell you a turbo kit, I sold it to someone else almost a year before you had it, if they were not clear on how long they had the kit laying around its not our problem. If you would've bought the kit from us, we would've gladly replaced the turbo...which is the first time we would've had to. Even still Jason told me he offered you a discounted price for it which we didn't have to do since warranty had been over for over half a year and you got the kit second hand.

I understand the fact that you are upset, I would be too, but your anger is pointed in the wrong direction. If I buy an intercooler from a guy on the forum and it leaks boost I don't get mad at spearco and if I did they would just laugh at me. Instead I try to figure it out with the person I bought the kit from because it was a risk I took in buying it from them instead of the manufacturer.

I will refrain from further comments here.

Thanks,

Chris

AlTitaniumCar

12-18-2008, 04:00 PM

..... I take it you didn't like the blog idea then. LOL

I may blog later actually haha - just no time now...

Oh great leader, I had a vision after my prayer session... You said something profound earlier...

This does not mean that the source of the oil is the turbo. If there was oil in the intercooler/intake piping it would obviously be ingested by the engine and subsequently spewed out the exhaust manifold reaching the turbo anyways which means the turbo would get bathed in oil. I know this because it happened to me about 5 years ago on a different car I had. I kept sending the turbo out to rebuild(3 times) and it kept happening. It ended up being a crakcase pressure issue, not the turbocharger.

I have only one question quasi-rotary-engine Jesus, what's the flashpoint of engine oil? I will follow this question with another : what is the temperature inside of the combustion chamber? If I'm not mistaken, you're trying to tell me that there was a steady flow of oil (thick stuff) that travelled up an exhaust manifold (hot hot stuff) and made its way through the turbo, not out the turbine outlet, but rather the compressor outlet....

....

Let's think about this a bit. You're trying to convince me that the oil teleported from the turbine housing to the compressor housing. Magically? Even more pixie-dust-inspired thinking tells us that the oil escaped the heat of the engine and turbine housing and remained in its liquid state, then sought refuge in the comfortable embrace of the intercooler...

I DARE YOU TO MAKE LESS SENSE.

The problem is and always will be that gem of a turbocharger you opted to use.

On the subject of turbochargers, you mentioned that I could send in my XS Pow...SS Auto... TURBOCHARGER BRAND Turbocharger and have it inspected. Thankfully Jason informed me that I would have the pleasure of paying you ONLY $550 for another fantastic turbocharger. Thanks for the deterrent gents!

Since it's only fair since I've got two people coming after me now, I'm going to tag in my friend who shares the same disgust for this caliber of service. Everyone, meet Mike , a friend of mine who also sought answers from the Mohammed-of-Renesis.

TAG, YOU'RE IN!

WantedTwo

12-18-2008, 04:04 PM

This thread delivers!

Mlewin

12-18-2008, 04:43 PM

Hey guys,

I'm am the Mike character that Alec speaks of. We thought that because there are two of them that we need to have a tag team battle. I helped Alec put the kit on the first time, the second time, and anytime after that when it didn't work. I wanted to address a couple of problems.

It's quite unfortunate but not unexpected for some people to grasp onto anything they can to defame the current leader in RX-8 development.....

Leader in RX-8 development? Now I'm glad that you guys can give YOURSELVES that title. Just like I am the leader in giving girls oral pleasure. I'm sure there a couple of people will contest my title as well as yours.

We have our opinions on other products yet we refrain from going on their threads and attempting to defame.

We are not telling anyone anything that you have not done. Deformation is when you say someone did something that they have not done. Now explain the deformation, please. Also if your opinions are anything like your customer service then I don't think that anyone wants to hear what you have to say.

I have explained our position on the subject, from now on the rest is of no matter to me.

See I think this is where one of your problems come from. You never responded before this. Its not like he didn't call. But now here is the kicker, I called and asked about a turbo kit, and I never got a call back. I could have been another customer looking for help, but no one was there to help. That should be a lesson to all others thinking about buying the kit. I hope to GOD that your kit is perfect because you will not be getting any help if something is wrong.

Love,

Mike

AlTitaniumCar

12-18-2008, 04:44 PM

MazdaManiac

12-18-2008, 05:04 PM

We are not telling anyone anything that you have not done. Deformation is when you say someone did something that they have not done. Now explain the deformation, please.

Lol.
Deformation is what happened to the oil seals on that turbo when the 11-year-old Chinese slave worker assembled it.
Defamation is something else entirely!:eyetwitch

But I'm a grammar Nazi, so what do I know.

So what you'll see here is Truemagellen vouching for Mike (the seller). This is all well and good, but he then later refutes this stance, claiming that Mike had, in some way, shape, or form, damaged the kit... Interesting stance, this one...

Oops.

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/misc/chineseturbo.jpg

AlTitaniumCar

12-18-2008, 05:06 PM

MazdaManiac, you're my bestest interweb friend. Seriously though, thanks for the support!

Mlewin

12-18-2008, 05:11 PM

Lol.
Deformation is what happened to the oil seals on that turbo when the 11-year-old Chinese slave worker assembled it.
Defamation is something else entirely!:eyetwitch

But I'm a grammar Nazi, so what do I know.

Oops.

HAHA, I suck at life, but you get the point.

Thanks

truemagellen

12-18-2008, 05:13 PM

My turn again!

Here's a fun bit I found from this thread, the one where I bought the kit from Snidely Whiplash. (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=134830&page=2)

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Picture1-1.png

So what you'll see here is Truemagellen vouching for Mike (the seller). This is all well and good, but he then later refutes this stance, claiming that Mike had, in some way, shape, or form, damaged the kit... Interesting stance, this one...

Please notice the date, March 2007. We shipped the kit to Mike1234a AND NOT YOU after that post was made.

It was our understanding Mike1234a had changed his mind and wanted to install the kit. I still have the tracking information of sending the kit to Mike and not AIredcar.

So a new kit was not shipped to you AIRedcar from our facilities, in fact we have never had a transaction from you regarding Esmeril parts. So when mike1234a received his kit he should have started a new sale thread stating it is in his possession as we no longer could vouch for it. You bought the kit with false information. Just like MM is posting false information, it is as simple as that.

AIredcar, so if you were not told by mike1234a that he had the kit himself before purchasing then that is unfortunate and you should take it up with him.

but if you would have looked at the shipping information you would have seen it came from mik1234a and not us so bashing us is not the solution. So as I said to you on the phone...you need to look where you purchased the kit from. We are happy to answer questions but we can't solve every problem by giving away free components for used turbo kits.

. .

MazdaManiac

12-18-2008, 05:25 PM

Just like MM is posting false information, it is as simple as that.

OK. I'll bite. What am I posting that is false this time?

You deleted the thread that contained all of your other lies, so now we don't have a good reference. Care to start over here?

zoom44

12-18-2008, 05:44 PM

am i the only person on here that thinks buying a turbo 2nd hand and then trying to get the retailer to warranty a problem with it is asking too much?

altspace

12-18-2008, 05:45 PM

My hats off to you Alec and MM. I love your eloquently phrasing of words. I chuckled after each paragraph. Cheers to you both.

AlTitaniumCar

12-18-2008, 05:49 PM

am i the only person on here that thinks buying a turbo 2nd hand and then trying to get the retailer to warranty a problem with it is asking too much?

Only if the kit was used my friend.

MazdaManiac

12-18-2008, 05:51 PM

am i the only person on here that thinks buying a turbo 2nd hand and then trying to get the retailer to warranty a problem with it is asking too much?

No. You are exactly right.
However, there seems to be some discrepancy about what actually constitutes "second-hand" in this instance.

ShellDude

12-18-2008, 05:52 PM

am i the only person on here that thinks buying a turbo 2nd hand and then trying to get the retailer to warranty a problem with it is asking too much?

It appears that there is a little more happening here than just a 2nd hand sale.

zoom44

12-18-2008, 05:55 PM

zoom44

12-18-2008, 05:57 PM

Al titanium didnt buy the kit from Esmeril or Mazdaparts the retailer - he bought from an individual. and if i read that screen cap right the kit was originally put up for resale back in march- clearly we are well past the 90 days.

MazdaManiac

12-18-2008, 05:58 PM

it doesnt matter- if i buy something and it has a 90 warranty from the time i buy it and then i resell it to someone else and they have a problem with it they cant take it back to the store and say "here fix this" the warranty was to the original purchaser. it doesnt matter if its still in the original box and shrink wrapped with seal on it.

least of all a turbo kit. id like someone to find me one other time on any rotor forum a 2nd hand turbo kit was warrantied by the manufacturer

I'm really sure that the OP is all that concerned with a "warranty" issue.
Its more a matter of being sold a "bill of goods", so to speak, about the merchantability of the kit as it stood.

Certainly a post like this implies fitness of merchantability:

If there are any worries, this is a brand new kit that was recently built and is just waiting to be shipped out

Even if there is no claim to warranty, there is a definite implication that the goods are in "new" condition. This would make the failure of any part primary claim, even if an adjustment wouldn't be forthcoming.

ShellDude

12-18-2008, 05:59 PM

Well it matters to me. If I were in the market for a turbo I would have a very hard time seriously considering the Esmeril on account of issues like this.

It's also concerning that the vendor and manufacturer have not been as accessible as one would hope. The bitmap of their endorsement of the "second hand" seller isn't helping matters either.

zoom44

12-18-2008, 06:00 PM

but as i read the post above the kit was then actually shipped to the original purchaser who had it for some amount of time before it was then shipped to Al- or am i wrong about that?

bse50

12-18-2008, 06:01 PM

Only if the kit was used my friend.

Well, this doesn't really matter considering the limited 90 day warranty they offer so zoom44 is right at one point.
What surprises me instead is that following a path when it's opposit is well discussed by just using a kind of "violence" in your regards will just make other customers run.
Plus, being modest is big plus to success.
You can define yourself as God, but when you place a wastegate so low, as i already told you somewhere or build ignition harnesses that need splicing you should just credit yourself as God's weird assistant.
There's no logical point in having a 700hp 13msp engine that can't be driven because every track side marker will tear it apart. Another point is if you build a showcar, but then you don't market your products as pure "performance" ones.
Maybe i'm going nowhere, maybe i'm not somebody who can vouch in and speak but guys, let's be serious...
Before any technical aspect of this problem we should all remember that we are humans, that we make mistakes and that starting to try and piss the other "contender" off will just create a mess. Admitting a single mistake and trying to give a reasonable explanation is what we, the customers, need.
We all know that MM at times act as an overstressed man but did he ever refused to explain something technical? same for other tons of posters here such as Hymee, Charles R. Hill, rotarygod and others i'm not remembering at the moment. They help when there's a problem or at least try to.
So, instead of telling us how you guys at esmeril are far superior than the rest couldn't you just tell us what went wrong according to your experience and give us a possible solution to the problem?

That's just my point of view, a rotary enthusiast and a customer that is a bit upset by some behaviors at times.

zoom44

12-18-2008, 06:02 PM

zoom44

12-18-2008, 06:03 PM

and an excellent point it is bse

bse50

12-18-2008, 06:07 PM

Thank you, but i would like to add that a vendor will be able to sell sh!t as well if smiling. That's exactly what happened with other shops. They stopped smiling, they went away with a crowd chasing them for their heads.
The other shop also had a bit longer "history" so it took more time for this to happen. When you have just a couple of products and few customers it happens in a heartbeat.

ShellDude

12-18-2008, 06:43 PM

if you purchased a 2nd hand kit from another manufacturer you would expect them to honor a warranty that is no longer valid?

If I came into possession of a product and had the skillset necessary to determine it had an manufacturing defect then I would fully expect the supposed manufacturer to address it. In some states there are consumer protection laws that ensure this to be the case.

I'm an RX-8 second owner and bought it "second hand" from a Honda lot. That's not going to stop Mazda from replacing my engine if it craps out over the next 4 years.

You look at the money people have to invest into a turbo kit and you're just shy of being able to pick up a 2004-2005 model soup to nuts.

AlTitaniumCar

12-18-2008, 06:45 PM

ShellDude, you've got the right idea there.

ShellDude

12-18-2008, 06:56 PM

I'm just saying it like I see. Had Esmeril (they still have a chance to step in and do the right thing) taken possession of the turbo, honestly reviewed its condition, reached the same conclusion, had the balls to admit there was a defect, and then corrected it, it would go a very long way in demonstrating to the community that they stand behind their products, chinese knock-offs or w/e...

Hell, I don't even care about the whole chinese knock-off / clone thing. Just so long as they stand behind what the sell.... like hello?!?!?!??

And then not returning phone calls or responding to emails? WTF?!?!?! GAME OVER man.

MazdaManiac

12-18-2008, 06:59 PM

Well, Mazda offered that warranty. They weren't obliged and we don't have any right to expect one.
Its a good-faith gesture.

However, this isn't the point here.

I don't think this is a matter of financial responsibility as much as it is a pointer to a much bigger systemic problem with the kit itself.

And then not returning phone calls or responding to emails? WTF?!?!?! GAME OVER man.

lol. I do that all the time.
Doesn't have any bearing one way or another on my claims, though.

ShellDude

12-18-2008, 07:05 PM

Well, Mazda offered that warranty. They weren't obliged and we don't have any right to expect one.
Its a good-faith gesture.

However, this isn't the point here.

I understand what you're saying, Jeff. You're focusing on where these crapshoot kits are coming from, identifying root cause.

I'm all for shit happening... I mean, it happens everyday. What I look for is how people handle things after the shit hits the fan and, unfortunately, I'm not impressed with how this is being handled by mazdaparts and esmeril.

And yeah, you slacker.... There are definitely times where it's like beating a dead horse trying to get in touch with you, but in my own experience, that doesn't make you any less accountable. Over the past half year we've worked through a number of items in the AP space, and even though it took some time, especially during all the stupid firmware changes, you always delivered. That's what separates you from this rift-raft.

truemagellen

12-18-2008, 07:11 PM

And then not returning phone calls or responding to emails? WTF?!?!?! GAME OVER man.

And therein lies the problem. We did respond to his phone calls. In fact I spoke to him for well over 30 minutes during one call.

AIredcar simply won't take responsibility for the situation. He bought a used kit, not from us and then had problems with it. We offered to inspect the turbo for free and if it could not be repaired we would give him a discounted rate on a replacement turbo. He would not accept our offer, case closed.

ShellDude

12-18-2008, 07:13 PM

We offered to inspect the turbo for free and if it could not be repaired we would give him a discounted rate on a replacement turbo. He would not accept our offer, case closed.

Anyone disputing this?

Symbioticgenius

12-18-2008, 07:17 PM

am i the only person on here that thinks buying a turbo 2nd hand and then trying to get the retailer to warranty a problem with it is asking too much?

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/common-sense-superpower.jpg

zoom44

12-18-2008, 07:19 PM

If I came into possession of a product and had the skillset necessary to determine it had an manufacturing defect then I would fully expect the supposed manufacturer to address it. In some states there are consumer protection laws that ensure this to be the case.

I'm an RX-8 second owner and bought it "second hand" from a Honda lot. That's not going to stop Mazda from replacing my engine if it craps out over the next 4 years.

You look at the money people have to invest into a turbo kit and you're just shy of being able to pick up a 2004-2005 model soup to nuts.

automotive warranties are transferable. this is not. most turbo kits are sold as is with no protection what so ever.

check around at other companies warranty info like greddy

No warranty whatsoever will be valid if the defect was caused by abuse, negligence, and/or mishandling. GReddy® reserves the rights to make this determination. GReddy Performance Products, Inc. reserves all rights for determination and execution for all warranty claims. All merchandise sold by GReddy Performance Products, Inc. is subject to the GReddy manufacturer's warranty, if any, and is subject to submission to the manufacturer for approval for repair or replacement of merchandise. The warranty period varris from product line to product line.

For warranty informatino on a specific product line, contact Alamo Motorsports or GReddy. GReddy is not responsible for any incidental or consequential damages. Customer will be resopnsible fo all shipping and handling fees. No labor or inconvenience may be included in any claims. For warranty requirement, if applicable, please contact Alamo Motorsports for details. If shipping damage has occurred, itis the customer's responsibility to handle the claims through the carrier.

if your greddy turbo fails they you have to pay to end it to them for them to check it out and then they will determine how the issue was caused. All shipping damage is the customers/shipping company's responsibility.

send a second hand greddy turbo back to them months after the original warranty (which isnt even applicable to you) is invalid and see if they "step up". they wont and its ridiculous to say they should.

ShellDude

12-18-2008, 07:20 PM

zoom44, I'm coming around. I would've given mazdaparts a chance by returning the turbo to them. If what they claim is true, they were willing to make things right if it was clear that the problem was a result of poor craftsmanship.

Derex'8

12-18-2008, 07:42 PM

Sorry but I'm w/zoom on this one, didn't even notice he had bought it second hand

Either way no company has a perfect track record, there will always be mishaps.

MazdaManiac

12-18-2008, 08:06 PM

Well, now I'd kinda like to see some answers.

One side says it was shipped directly from the builder, the other says it was shipped to the first owner and then on to the second.
Not that either matters - the fabricator (literally and figuratively) took the time out to indicate that they were vouching for the kit's "newness".
Once that step is made, its like they sold it new, anyway.

AlTitaniumCar

12-18-2008, 08:22 PM

And therein lies the problem. We did respond to his phone calls. In fact I spoke to him for well over 30 minutes during one call.

AIredcar simply won't take responsibility for the situation. He bought a used kit, not from us and then had problems with it. We offered to inspect the turbo for free and if it could not be repaired we would give him a discounted rate on a replacement turbo. He would not accept our offer, case closed.

You responded to one phone call. ONE of many, and the 30 minute run-around consisted of me telling you that it's impossible to damage only the compressor to CHRA interface without destroying the turbo. Then there was a shift of blame from the know-it-alls at XS Power to Mike, whom I bought the kit from. You never said anything of a free inspection, you only told me that I had the privilege of buying another knock off turbo for $550. A fantastic offer, seeing as how I can find the same garbage on eBay for about $350.

Also, it's ALRedCar, Al, like the first two letters of my name, not artificial intelligence, something that seems to be the foundation of these Chinese knock-off companies...

AlTitaniumCar

12-18-2008, 08:30 PM

The kit was bought second hand, but in a completely unused state. I had the pleasure of opening the APC air filter myself, as well as pulling the covers off the "SUPER T-70". Now, I would be completely in the wrong if the kit was used, even if for a quick spin around the block, but the fact of the matter is, the kit was, by every conceivable stretch of anyone's imagination, UNUSED. This is where things go from black and white to a tinge of gray...

I brought this to everyone's attention because of:
A) The discovery that a turbocharger kit needs some severe re-working so that others don't go through the same headaches I've had
B) The producer's unwillingness to handle the situation in a professional manner

I continue to push the subject so that others can see how this has been handled by the producers of the kit - I've been truthful in every claim I've made, every image I've posted showing the damage from the kit, every account of the buyer (myself) to Esmeril contact. I'm just putting the facts out there so that others can see what $5000+ dollars worth of $1500 of eBay parts and some pipe will get you. A whole lot of nothing.

Zelse

12-18-2008, 09:12 PM

AlTitaniumCar

12-18-2008, 09:19 PM

A friend found this for me... http://www.xs-power.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=40&products_id=155

http://www.stockreco.com/image028.jpg
http://www.stockreco.com/image022.jpg

Here's what the compressor wheel and backplate look like on my fine example... It's also worth noting that the orange colored O-Ring is merely resting partially on the backplate. It clearly isn't up to the task of sealing anything.
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4315.jpg

Here's a shot of the assembled turbocharger - I want everyone to notice two things: first, the oil in the compressor housing and on the compressor outlet. Secondly, the white residue in the turbine housing, evidence of oil being burned during combustion.
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4313.jpg

MazdaManiac

12-18-2008, 09:19 PM

PWNT.... Wow. Good game. Hey Al, can you post up a pic and specs of the turbo that is supposedly supposed to be in this kit? Or it's equivalent?

We went 1600 + posts deep in another thread that is now gone trying to get that very information, so it is not likely to be forthcoming any time soon.

imput1234

12-18-2008, 09:38 PM

Just read the entire thread, that's gotta suck Al. I can understand selling shitty parts, but can't believe customer service is that bad. Even if your not under warranty they should still try to help you out when you call. You should have bought the $30 electric turbo from ebay, lifetime warranty :yelrotflm

paulmasoner

12-18-2008, 09:40 PM

Vendors should not be arguing or denigrating other vendor's products on here. This isn't even something we should have to say.

Elara, i agree and understand the moderators positions on all aspects of acting unprofesionally. And i have no issues with keeping competitors out of each others respective forums. But please dont let it go as far as preventing an adult discussion and review of products. Image if that were to happen, we'd be chock full of vendors selling shit, and a LOT of members buying it not knowing any better because a lot of the folks who have been around the block and know better wouldnt be able to question and force crappy vendors to .... eh you know where i'm gong with this.

am i the only person on here that thinks buying a turbo 2nd hand and then trying to get the retailer to warranty a problem with it is asking too much?

no, i agree with you there. although considering the situation it would have been a big positive step for Esmiril to be a bit more malleable in this case. I mean anyone who has ever actually held a turbo in their hands can comfortably say that that damage cant be done by shipping or other means w/o destroying it or tearing it down. Hell 30 minutes reading on the inner workings of a turbo and then looking at those pics would tell anyone that something is definately wrong there, and if you have half an imagination you can visualize in your head exactly why things happened the way they did.

And therein lies the problem. We did respond to his phone calls. In fact I spoke to him for well over 30 minutes during one call.

AIredcar simply won't take responsibility for the situation. He bought a used kit, not from us and then had problems with it. We offered to inspect the turbo for free and if it could not be repaired we would give him a discounted rate on a replacement turbo. He would not accept our offer, case closed.

1) No that isnt the problem, poor customer service is something the community has almost come to expect considering a lot of the vendor history here. The problem is A- you apparently accused a member of disassembling the turbo causing the damages, thats one of the most unprofessional things i've ever seen on here.
B- that you/Chris actually tried to say the oil was coming from the motor. there are probably a lot of people around who would buy that junk, but as was aleady pointed out, oil leaving in the exhaust stream can not end up on the compressor side of the turbo unless the thing is TOTALLY fubar'd already.... again, simply the fact that esmiril tried to pawn that excuse off on the ignorant and unsuspecting is unbelievably unprofessional.

Utterly unacceptable. This is starting to mirror a previous vendors attitude and actions on here....

Oh and dont DARE try to start throwing around the "trolling/hater/uninvolved person bullshit" i had it up to here with that crap in the past. You might be able to get away with that with some other ppl on here, but not me. As long as you are a vendor here selling products it IS my business, and everyone elses. Your customer service is my business, the quality of the products you sell is my business, and the way you potray your company and ethics is my business. As long as we are a part of your customer base, its our business. All the same applies to Esmiril as well.

Last note: its one thing for Esmiril to fudge this up. But Mazdaparts supports them and retails their products. What does this say about your quality control and how much you care about what your selling your customers?? Are you selling other products that you havent properly scrutinized? Products that are potentially plain junk?

Zelse

12-18-2008, 10:22 PM

^-- Nicely said Paul. I've honestly had a few comments after reading this thread a few times, but either Al, Jeff, or Paul here has voiced the same feelings I have, so no need for an echo. It's true though in the sense of..this is sad that this vendor is beginning to look like the shadow of another one that "once was".... Hopefully not again, eh?

Coincidence that it's over a turbo kit too, no?

AlTitaniumCar

12-18-2008, 10:43 PM

Thanks for all of the support guys, it's honestly giving me piece of mind knowing that (hopefully) people won't get themselves into a situation similar to mine after reading this thread.

Zelse

12-18-2008, 10:46 PM

Heh well after hearing about the Esmeril turbo kit giving the "claimed" HP..Even I almost debated going FI. But was going to compare to the upcoming BHR turbo kit which is and still is going to be superior it seems...Not just in custom support/service neither it seems. :D

rotarenvy

12-18-2008, 10:49 PM

...
Here's what the compressor wheel and backplate look like on my fine example... It's also worth noting that the orange colored O-Ring is merely resting partially on the backplate. It clearly isn't up to the task of sealing anything.
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Esmeril%20Bull/DSC_4315.jpg

that orange o-ring is only a dust seal. the seal that is leaking must be on the shaft behind the impeller.

AlTitaniumCar

12-18-2008, 10:52 PM

MazdaManiac

12-19-2008, 09:34 AM

But please dont let it go as far as preventing an adult discussion and review of products. Image if that were to happen, we'd be chock full of vendors selling shit, and a LOT of members buying it not knowing any better because a lot of the folks who have been around the block and know better wouldnt be able to question and force crappy vendors to .... eh you know where i'm gong with this.

Too late. Already done.
Registered vendors are no longer allowed to talk about other vendors products.
New Forum Rules as of yesterday.

Zelse

12-19-2008, 09:35 AM

^--... L...O..L... Seriously? Friendly competition and adult discussion is a no no? Wowzers. Good job Jeff..you out smarted the competition again. :P

MazdaManiac

12-19-2008, 10:11 AM

Good job Jeff..you out smarted the competition again. :P

Meh. Not so much.

ChrisRX8PR

12-19-2008, 10:30 AM

Right you are - but still, it will still offer an amount of sealing so that the compressed air finds its way out to the compressor outlet. The real culprit in this oily mess, as you mentioned, is at the backplate and center housing interface. I just thought the ill-fitting gasket was a fun side note.

Just a clarification

That "Orange Gasket" is of the best quality O-rings available, its orange because it is made of silicone not rubber, most turbo's don't even bring one. Its also not supposed to sit on the face of the backplate and that is the reason it looks like its on the edge in the pic you took. Instead it is supposed to fit inside the back of the compressor housing and the backplate should sandwich it against the walls. Its also meant to be tight when you install it and it takes some finesse so as not to pinch it. BTW, it is very easy to damage a turbo or make it leak without destroying its exterior, all you have to do is store it in a position or with other parts and have any kind of contact with the shaft from either end that forces it to rest against one side and let it sit for a month, the aluminum area where the steel ring seal is only needs a very slight mark for oil to seep past it later on.

All in all the bottom line is that if you would've at least sent the turbo to us for inspection, we would've been able to help you even though we weren't required to. Even if you didn't agree with our original offering of a replacement turbo, I would've helped you in some way by maybe repairing it for cheap or working something out if you would've at least tried to be nice about it, I am not all that unreasonable and many people that have bought from us know that. But on top of the fact that we weren't even required to deal with your issue because you were not a customer of ours and our involvement should've been limited to tech support of our product if you had any questions, you had to be mean. In my book that does not help at all.

Again, this is the only time this has happened in a period of time where many kits have been shipped, even internationally and being that we didn't get to look at the turbo, the circumstances under which it happened(2nd hand & almost a year later) after being shipped twice, its speculative.

I am not saying the turbo wasn't defective, that is the reason we offer a warranty on the parts and workmanship of 90 days which is way better than what can be said of other performance parts manufacturers. It's not our fault that it didn't get installed until a year later, even then we tried to give you some options and truly, we didn't have to. I am sorry that you were trying to get a great deal and it didn't work out. Next time, if you want all the perks/support/warranty of a manufacturer buy from them. You decided to take the risk of buying it from an individual which we all know sometimes works out and sometimes doesn't.

Best regards,

Chris

p.s. I can also assure you that your badmouthing of the kit you are trying to sell isn't helping you sell it...

MazdaManiac

12-19-2008, 10:48 AM

That "Orange Gasket" is of the best quality O-rings available, its orange because it is made of silicone not rubber, most turbo's don't even bring one.

It is, as mentioned elsewhere, a dust seal. The compressor housing and backplate are sealed directly against each other - the large "O" ring sits in a groove on the outer landing, not in a sandwich behind the housing.
All modern Garrett, Mitsubishi, KKK, ITI, ect. have them.
For the most part, they are semi-optional, especially on a relatively low-flow application like the RX-8.

p.s. I can also assure you that your badmouthing of the kit you are trying to sell isn't helping you sell it...

So far, he isn't bad-mouthing the kit.
Just the turbo (which he isn't including in the sale) and the communication he has had with the manufacturer.

zoom44

12-19-2008, 10:57 AM

^--... L...O..L... Seriously? Friendly competition and adult discussion is a no no? Wowzers. Good job Jeff..you out smarted the competition again. :P

there is a difference between friendly competition and going into someone elses store and denigrating their product to their customers. read the new rule for yourself- you can find it by reading the big red announcemnt at he top of each forum page or by going to the business advertising section of the FAQ. its rule #7.

for instance- its the difference between Pepsi advertising their drink is better than coke and Pepsi Reps walking into the Coke Museum and shouting that it sucks.

zoom44

12-19-2008, 11:00 AM

I just thought the ill-fitting gasket was a fun side note.

funny thats not what you implied with your previous post

It's also worth noting that the orange colored O-Ring is merely resting partially on the backplate. It clearly isn't up to the task of sealing anything.

MazdaManiac

12-19-2008, 11:01 AM

for instance- its the difference between Pepsi advertising their drink is better than coke and Pepsi Reps walking into the Coke Museum and shouting that it sucks.

Last year, I went into the Heineken Museum in Amsterdam and asked for an Amstel. Does that count?

zoom44

12-19-2008, 11:11 AM

no, i agree with you there. although considering the situation it would have been a big positive step for Esmiril to be a bit more malleable in this case. I mean anyone who has ever actually held a turbo in their hands can comfortably say that that damage cant be done by shipping or other means w/o destroying it or tearing it down. Hell 30 minutes reading on the inner workings of a turbo and then looking at those pics would tell anyone that something is definately wrong there, and if you have half an imagination you can visualize in your head exactly why things happened the way they did.

They were- they offered to look at it when they don't have to AND they offered to sell him a new one at a reduced rate- They didn't have to do any of that. The warranty wasn't to him since he isn't the original purchaser AND even if it was He admits to taking it apart himself which would null and void ANY warranty even if he had one.

1) No that isnt the problem, poor customer service is something the community has almost come to expect considering a lot of the vendor history here. The problem is A- you apparently accused a member of disassembling the turbo causing the damages, thats one of the most unprofessional things i've ever seen on here.

Seems to me they made a legitimate offer they didnt have to and he didnt accept it. Disassembling the turbo would void any warranty from anyone.

As far as the other comments about trolls or whatever you know what hes talking about . Clearly there are a group of people who will just bash a vendor relentlessly and viciously even for little things if Jeff disagrees with that vendor.

How many hands does the kit have to go thru before you find it unacceptable for the purchaser to expect the seller to fix something that goes wrong?

zoom44

12-19-2008, 11:13 AM

Last year, I went into the Heineken Museum in Amsterdam and asked for an Amstel. Does that count?

Depends were you there as an AMstel rep telling all the other customers how Heineken sucks and exactly what part of the Heineken process you thought was the worst thing ever possible and did you bring a cadre of other folks to shout the same things?

MazdaManiac

12-19-2008, 11:19 AM

Depends were you there as an AMstel rep telling all the other customers how Heineken sucks and exactly what part of the Heineken process you thought was the worst thing ever possible and did you bring a cadre of other folks to shout the same things?

Yes.

No. I was a well-known Amstel consumer and as soon as I asked for an Amstel, a bunch of other people at the bar heard me and chimed in that they wanted an Amstel, too.
My conversation was with the bartender, but I didn't feel particularly motivated to keep it in hushed tones since I was in a public space.

ryank771

12-19-2008, 11:20 AM

Al -- man, bro.....sorry to hear about all this. I just got the chance to sit down and read through all of this. I'm def. on your side. I hope that the company will man up and at least try to work with you on this instead of slamming you up against a brick wall.

Think on the bright side -- we have at least 3 months before track time!

zoom44

12-19-2008, 11:25 AM

All in all the bottom line is that if you would've at least sent the turbo to us for inspection, we would've been able to help you even though we weren't required to. Even if you didn't agree with our original offering of a replacement turbo, I would've helped you in some way by maybe repairing it for cheap or working something out if you would've at least tried to be nice about it, I am not all that unreasonable and many people that have bought from us know that. But on top of the fact that we weren't even required to deal with your issue because you were not a customer of ours and our involvement should've been limited to tech support of our product if you had any questions, you had to be mean. In my book that does not help at all.

Again, this is the only time this has happened in a period of time where many kits have been shipped, even internationally and being that we didn't get to look at the turbo, the circumstances under which it happened(2nd hand & almost a year later) after being shipped twice, its speculative.

I am not saying the turbo wasn't defective, that is the reason we offer a warranty on the parts and workmanship of 90 days which is way better than what can be said of other performance parts manufacturers. It's not our fault that it didn't get installed until a year later, even then we tried to give you some options and truly, we didn't have to. I am sorry that you were trying to get a great deal and it didn't work out. Next time, if you want all the perks/support/warranty of a manufacturer buy from them. You decided to take the risk of buying it from an individual which we all know sometimes works out and sometimes doesn't.

Best regards,

Chris

p.s. I can also assure you that your badmouthing of the kit you are trying to sell isn't helping you sell it...

sorry that says it all for me and Alred's posts back-up what Chris says. What Alred was expecting was unreasonable

kersh4w

12-19-2008, 11:26 AM

i swear to god this place is worse than a sorority when it comes to drama.

zoom44

12-19-2008, 11:28 AM

Al -- man, bro.....sorry to hear about all this. I just got the chance to sit down and read through all of this. I'm def. on your side. I hope that the company will man up and at least try to work with you on this instead of slamming you up against a brick wall.

you clearly didnt read the whole thing- they made a decent offer to him which he refused. they did "man up" and try to work with him. what he expected was unreasonable.

zoom44

12-19-2008, 11:29 AM

i swear to god this place is worse than a sorority when it comes to drama.

that is true and dont think im leaving anyone out- even me

paulmasoner

12-19-2008, 12:00 PM

They were- they offered to look at it when they don't have to AND they offered to sell him a new one at a reduced rate- They didn't have to do any of that. The warranty wasn't to him since he isn't the original purchaser AND even if it was He admits to taking it apart himself which would null and void ANY warranty even if he had one.

I suppose you are right. I was just thinking what I as a hypothetical business owner would want to do in a case where i had already been called out/accused of selling cheap knock-off parts and now being called out on it again with documentation(legit or not)

Seems to me they made a legitimate offer they didnt have to and he didnt accept it. Disassembling the turbo would void any warranty from anyone.
agreed

As far as the other comments about trolls or whatever you know what hes talking about . Clearly there are a group of people who will just bash a vendor relentlessly and viciously even for little things if Jeff disagrees with that vendor.
of course i do, hell once in a while i fall into that category, not without reason though. Looking back and reading a lot of the old old stuff on this forum one finds that he is guilty like anyone else of making false assumptions or claims about anything. But a strikingly large percentage of the time you'll see a topic discussed, opinions shared, and a year later when everyone says "oh cool" MM is there saying "i told you so".
He's a jack-ass sure, some of us see the humor in him, some of us dont, some of us wonder what goes on inside his sick head sometimes, but fact is, he generally knows his stuff.

How many hands does the kit have to go thru before you find it unacceptable for the purchaser to expect the seller to fix something that goes wrong?
i get what you're saying, and your right. just like i, for such a small new vendor, I as a consumer, would feel better about them if they had done something different, whether its called for or not. That being on the grounds that the vendors integrity is already very heavily questioned on the specific topic of this disaster.

BTW, it is very easy to damage a turbo or make it leak without destroying its exterior, all you have to do is store it in a position or with other parts and have any kind of contact with the shaft from either end that forces it to rest against one side and let it sit for a month, the aluminum area where the steel ring seal is only needs a very slight mark for oil to seep past it later on.

eh, agreed. did you see how much oil he lost? im working on the assumption that unobvious damage wouldnt fit the bill here, but i will concede that that is just an assumption as i have no grounds to base that on.

that is the reason we offer a warranty on the parts and workmanship of 90 days which is way better than what can be said of other performance parts manufacturers.

are you serious? do you not even know your competitors here?:lol:

p.s. I can also assure you that your badmouthing of the kit you are trying to sell isn't helping you sell it...
He isnt bad mouthing the kit. he actually said the design was well thought out. he's bad mouthing the alleged crap you built it with, and has since replaced said "junk" parts with quality ones: Turbo/WG/BOV.

I think he'll sell it easier than you sell your kits new, as a lot of people seem to like the setup your kit offers but so many of them cant make the call because of lingering questions about your integrity and the quality and source of your parts

zoom44

12-19-2008, 12:10 PM

He's a jack-ass sure, some of us see the humor in him, some of us dont, some of us wonder what goes on inside his sick head sometimes, but fact is, he generally knows his stuff.

totally agree:) just watch for the descending flock of crows:)

california style

12-19-2008, 12:22 PM

Yes.

No. I was a well-known Amstel consumer and as soon as I asked for an Amstel, a bunch of other people at the bar heard me and chimed in that they wanted an Amstel, too.
My conversation was with the bartender, but I didn't feel particularly motivated to keep it in hushed tones since I was in a public space.

Fortunately, Heineken brew Amstel so they stood in the background quietly chuckling to themselves....

StealthTL

12-19-2008, 12:27 PM

I toured the Heineken Experience last year, pretty good show.
I'd been there before, when it was an Amstel brewery - no matter how Heiny tries, you just can't replicate the aromas of a working brewery!

S

zoom44

12-19-2008, 12:35 PM

Fortunately, Heineken brew Amstel so they stood in the background quietly chuckling to themselves....

I toured the Heineken Experience last year, pretty good show.
I'd been there before, when it was an Amstel brewery -
S

see i thought about googling that to make sure before i posted because i thought i knew/heard that.

my post would have been so much better if i had : )

ShellDude

12-19-2008, 12:37 PM

We did the Van Gough tour right after the Heineken thing... talk about a painful day.

paulmasoner

12-19-2008, 12:45 PM

see i thought about googling that to make sure before i posted because i thought i knew/heard that.

my post would have been so much better if i had : )

haha, you got pwned by :beer05:

MazdaManiac

12-19-2008, 01:02 PM

Fortunately, Heineken brew Amstel so they stood in the background quietly chuckling to themselves....

Now you are starting to get the joke!

We did the Van Gough tour right after the Heineken thing... talk about a painful day.

I freaking LOVED the van Gogh thing. Its the Anne Frank house that is a bit painful.

Mlewin

12-19-2008, 01:18 PM

Just a clarification

That "Orange Gasket" is of the best quality O-rings available, its orange because it is made of silicone not rubber, most turbo's don't even bring one. Its also not supposed to sit on the face of the backplate and that is the reason it looks like its on the edge in the pic you took. Instead it is supposed to fit inside the back of the compressor housing and the backplate should sandwich it against the walls. Its also meant to be tight when you install it and it takes some finesse so as not to pinch it.

But on top of the fact that we weren't even required to deal with your issue because you were not a customer of ours and our involvement should've been limited to tech support of our product if you had any questions, you had to be mean. In my book that does not help at all.

Best regards,

Chris

p.s. I can also assure you that your badmouthing of the kit you are trying to sell isn't helping you sell it...

I still see that you are not understanding the problem. First, stop proving that you know little about the turbo that you sell. Second, the seal is much to large for the turbo. Are you saying that its suppose to be larger then the backplate? that is why it wont fit, it wont even fit inside the largest edge. Third, When you say he is limited to tech support, does that mean that you will pick up the phone next time someone calls you? OK. OK. Ill let that go, people are busy, how about you at least call someone back, is that to much to ask?? How about more then once?

THIS IS THE QUESTION I WOULD LIKE TO BEING ANSWERED.

I was there though is whole thing, and Al wont get on anyones case unless it necessary. He wanted to talk to you about a kit, that you made, that was not working correctly. Now lets take the turbo out of the picture. Once he got the new turbo, he was still calling and asking for help to get the car RUNNING. He was not asking about the turbo any longer. You act like you did so much, but you really did so little. He was still using your kit even after the turbo went suck, And you didn't even lift a finger. You still have not explained your poor customer service. The problem is that even if someone buys the kit from you, how can anyone be sure that you are going to call them back when something decides to take a shi*. I would never waste my time with a company that wont, at least give me a little attention when I'm having a problem with their kit. You may have called back once, But when he called and he was not asking for anything but help, you didn't even offer that.

Come on, you seem like a smart guy, figure it out.

Mike

AlTitaniumCar

12-19-2008, 01:52 PM

Zoom44, I feel like you're skimming and assuming things...

I repeat, I was never offered a free inspection. Jason told me that I could send them the turbo and pay them $550 for a new turbocharger. Get your facts squared away before you start coming after me.

Also, about the rubber gasket, I know what it does, I knew what it does when I noticed it hanging off the backplate. My point with the gasket comment is that it is so woefully oversized, it cannot effective work as a seal. My point of bringing the seal to everyone's attention is that it is on par with the rest of the "quality" in the turbocharger.

Zoom44, I am thrilled that you would rather have a vendor overcharge, grossly overcharge at that, for a kit (while basically well-designed) that is constructed of woefully inadequate parts, than try and help the community that you moderate and when I am trying to warn other members to keep them from making a mistake.

Also, I opened the turbo well after Christian refused to call me and well after the conversation with Jason. Get your facts straight.

kersh4w

12-19-2008, 02:12 PM

blahblahblah

i wish i had the money to actually decide on greddy+mm upgrade or the esmeril kit.

zoom44

12-19-2008, 02:50 PM

the facts are in this thread and they speak for themselves- you bought a second hand turbo they offered to do something for you when they didnt have to . you refused and now you are bitching about it.

no other company would replace that turbo for free either (of course some are going to say BHR would i would ask you to read the ignition thread where CRH said taking the coil/bracket combo apart would void the warranty on that product http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=2775280&postcount=1193)

and you can bitch and post CHINESE KNOCK OFF as much as you like ( as if a CHINESE knock is somehow a problem because its CHINESE)- doesn't change the fact that you are wrong. doesn't change the fact that your friends are saying the company should man up AFTER YOU TOOK THE TURBO APART which is flat out ridiculous.

paulmasoner

12-19-2008, 03:06 PM

A logical analysis of the advantages of keeping the true source/manufacturer of the main components a secret:

1) Industry secrets?
Any competition Esmeril has, already knows the specs of the parts or could very quickly determine them.... and could replicate the kit for roughly the same cost if they so desired.
No advantage

2) Ensuring job security?
a) The people who buy "kits" are not the people who would source the parts, and fabricate a replica of the kit rather than buying from Esmeril.
b) If the parts are geniune and being sold for fair value, you couldn't go to the local shop and have a one-off replica kit made for cheaper than buying from Esmeril.
No advantage

3) Making money?
Produce a kit with parts from less than favorable manufacturers (aka Ebay/knock-off turbo/BOV/WG) and sell the kit as if it included the higher cost and quality genuine parts.
Considerable Financial Advantage

I implore Esmeril to produce a better explanation.

ShellDude

12-19-2008, 03:15 PM

heh... zoom44 called it a chinese knock off

zoom44

12-19-2008, 03:38 PM

i merely am quoting his use of it ;) i find his capitalizing and constant use of CHINESE slightly offensive. Just like as if he constantly complained about a JEWISH knock off or an IRISH knock off etc.

Paul i used to work for a retail outlet that manufactured some of the items it sold as well as products that just had their brand applied and also products from other companies.

more than once i had customers come in with something they got months ago or even a year or more ago and say "this is broken i want a new one" and id check it out and find it was long past any warranty and say im sorry i cant replace it it was sold a long time ago and the warranty is no longer valid"

many times the customer would get irate. some to the point of cursing and spittle flying out - going to get their lawyers yelling "this company sucks dont buy anything here!" to all that would listen.

if it was our product i could offer them something for it depending on how old it was . a pro rated amount of credit to use to purchase something else and they would say " I can get all of this cheaper on line why would i buy it here you suck" etc

or i would give them the manufacturers contact info ( i know that hasn't happened in this case) to try to work something out that way and they'd say "i bought it here YOU dont stand behind the product you SELL!? You SUCK"

no amount of explanation would matter to them and eventually we'd get them to leave.

A few customers would talk to us and commiserate with us for having to deal with that. a few others would say we handled that all wrong.

thats what has happened here.

dannobre

12-19-2008, 03:46 PM

Can't always make everyone happy in every situation. :)

When it comes to turbo's and BOV's and wastegates...there is a reason the cheap copies aren't as good as the originals they copy...........they are cheap...you get what you pay for ;)

ShellDude

12-19-2008, 03:53 PM

hey zoom44, do you really think that CRH would not honor a lifetime warranty claim on their coil bundle because the owner chose to give the bracket a annodization bath?

I suspect even if I annodized my bracket pink, I'd still be able to negoiate a new coil if I ever ran into problems with his kit. When I read his "out of warranty" comment the other day I took it as a joke...

zoom44

12-19-2008, 03:55 PM

i can only go by what he's posts- and it seems to me to be a reasonable policy that he has made clear.

ShellDude

12-19-2008, 04:09 PM

hopefully I'll never have to find out, but I can't help but think that he would, in character, do everything in his power to keep me happy.

But, as much as I cherish pink, I have no plans on annodizing mine when it comes in.

ryank771

12-19-2008, 04:10 PM

you clearly didnt read the whole thing- they made a decent offer to him which he refused. they did "man up" and try to work with him. what he expected was unreasonable.

:icon_no2:
No, I clearly DID read the post. Al said that they never did offer him anything. He said - "You (Esmeril) never said anything of a free inspection, you only told me that I had the privilege of buying another knock off turbo for $550."

I'm not saying, I'm just saying.

zoom44

12-19-2008, 04:59 PM

yes they both agree that Esmeril offered to sell him a replacement at a reduced price for his inconvenience. that was the offer. its a perfectly reasonable offer that he turned down.

05rex8

12-19-2008, 05:16 PM

yes they both agree that Esmeril offered to sell him a replacement at a reduced price for his inconvenience. that was the offer. its a perfectly reasonable offer that he turned down.
You would have to be stupid to take them up on that offer. If these turbo's are in fact knock offs, that is way too much money for a knock off that may fail again. Talk about the aggravation of uninstalling and cleaning everything up afterward. Al was smart in putting that $550 towards an actual well known name brand turbo.

imput1234

12-19-2008, 05:38 PM

Whats wrong with Chinese stuff? 95% of the shit in my room is made in China.

rotarenvy

12-19-2008, 05:43 PM

I still see that you are not understanding the problem. First, stop proving that you know little about the turbo that you sell. Second, the seal is much to large for the turbo. Are you saying that its suppose to be larger then the backplate? that is why it wont fit, it wont even fit inside the largest edge. ....
Mike

that seal wasn't a problem! my compressor doesn't even have one. it uses close tolerances to seal it. stop crying wolf about a seal that was doing it's job!

I feel for AI as this issue would surely suck.

I feel the manufacturer of the turbo should warrant the issue, however if the turbo isn't sent back then there is nothing they can do. it looks like the turbo only needed a new seal kit. I would only expect a rebuild and not a whole new turbo.

Greddy owners were paying out of their own pockets for rebuilds after sort periods or biting the bullet and swapping in a MM upgrade. very similar situation to this.

05rex8

12-19-2008, 05:48 PM

Whats wrong with Chinese stuff? 95% of the shit in my room is made in China.
low quality

AlTitaniumCar

12-19-2008, 06:45 PM

So now I have a moderator trying to portray me as racist, fantastic. The only reason why I mention that the turbo is a chinese knock off is because of my experience with knock off turbos that came from chinese manufacturers with no reputation to rely on.

Here's some background for everyone... I worked for Honeywell Turbo Technologies, also known as Garrett, for my internship. My role was that of an Application Engineer for the CAT Off-Highway department and I spent a great portion of my time inspecting warranty returns on turbochargers coming in from the field. I know what to look for in a failed turbo and I can spot a poor design when I see it. I feel that I have made a proper assessment of the situation with the XS Power turbo because I HAVE. It comes from a "manufacturer" with no merits; it is a replica turbo. Replicating parts is a cost-cutting exercise and will, more often than not, result in cutting corners and reducing overall quality. THIS IS WHY I DON'T LIKE KNOCK OFFS. Seeing as how I was trained by a major player in the industry of turbocharged engines, I feel qualified to disassemble a turbocharger and inspect it, it was, after all, my job.

For the umpteenth time for those of you talking about a warranty claim, I WAS NOT OFFERED A FREE INSPECTION. I WAS TOLD TO BUY ANOTHER TURBOCHARGER. So please, find a new knit to pick.

Again, I am not a racist by any means. If the turbo was made in America, it would be a cheap American knock-off.

For the record, I had ONE CONVERSATION with Jason with 25 (TWENTY FIVE, that's five plus twenty folks) attempted phone calls. Before you ask, yes I do have a phone bill as proof. Christian has NEVER returned a call outside of when I had one generic question about the kit. As soon as I asked why my car was spraying oil everywhere, he went completely mute and WOULD NOT REPLY. This is a problem.

Kane

12-19-2008, 06:51 PM

zoom44

12-19-2008, 07:02 PM

im not trying to imply anything- i said i found the way you were using it slightly offensive. plenty of low cost good quality items come from china. you posted it trying to imply something- either the Chinese were incapable of making a quality product or or that knock off from them are always inferior. its simply not the case either way.

AlTitaniumCar

12-19-2008, 07:59 PM

I hate to be "that guy"; but with all of your turbo exp. - why even install it in the first place? A lot worse could have happened should the impeller wheel have decided to bid farewell to this cruel world.... or any number of other catastrophic failures.

Sorry to be off topic

I gave the turbo a once-over and trusted that Esmeril had inspected the turbocharger internals before shipping. Therefore, I installed it and hoped for the best. I only drove about 30 miles before I decided to ditch the XS Power turbo, granted a lot can happen in 30 miles, but I was using most of that mileage to diagnose the problems I was experiencing.

olddragger

12-19-2008, 09:53 PM

enough said--its easy to check this guy out--and he is for real. And he is trying to tell the community something---like some did about Mazsport?
OD

Zelse

12-19-2008, 11:12 PM

^--- Nicely said. :suspect:

I think the point here is simply..even if Al is at fault here or whatever...Or whoever. I've seen nothing but frequent bashing on Al (AL not AI. :P) from the vendor with claims of offering free help which he didn't (As Al says...Which I can honestly see) which it's kind of sad..Because we've seen this behavior before with other vendors. You figured other vendors would learn from this..But instead he chose to act the same. So it's kind of.. Like he's showing true colors openly?

california style

12-20-2008, 03:38 AM

Now you are starting to get the joke!

I thought I would straighten out the beerbarians out there....

zoom44

12-20-2008, 11:13 AM

with claims of offering free help which he didn't (As Al says...Which I can honestly see) which it's kind of sad..Because we've seen this behavior before with other vendors. You figured other vendors would learn from this..But instead he chose to act the same. So it's kind of.. Like he's showing true colors openly?

or how about that Truemagellan has been on here as a member for years and well before he became a vendor and has dealt honestly and fair with everyone for years so that his track record is very open and clear- maybe that is his true colors.

Not maybe actually thats definitely his true colors he's a good guy that runs a good business.

He is just like some of our other best vendors who came into the community as owners of the car and then found it was hard to get various parts for the car and started a business over it.

And i for one wont stand by and let his reputation be trashed over a turbokit that wasnt even purchased from him. After he made A VERY FAIR OFFER of a discount on a replacement part WHEN HE DIDNT EVEN HAVE TO DO THAT.

as i said above there will be some people who will never listen to reason and AL and his friends will probably be them. I would hope the rest of the forum- especially the guys that have been around as long as truemagellan and know him- will see the sour grapes for what they are.

To be named later

12-20-2008, 01:04 PM

So now I have a moderator trying to portray me as racist, fantastic. .

I'm sorry to hear about all the troubles you have.
I'm trying to avoid commenting on who is right, who is wrong.

But if you can be so quick to mis-construe Zoom44's comments as accusing you of being racist, I can see how you might mis-construe an expired warranty on a second hand part so that it works out in your favor.

A ninety day warranty is nice
But the way I look at things, a manufacturor offering a longer warranty than their competitors, that tell me that they have a lower confidence in their product. They expect that it will fail.

Regarding the warranty.......

"We replace all faulty parts free of charge for 90 days which begins immediately after we ship the kit. It was well out of the warranty time frame."

Unfortunately, many faults/defects do not become noticeable immediatly. They are not always nice enough to reveal themselves in a nice timely manner, within the manufacturors return period. If you buy a pair of shoes from a store with a 30 day return policy, and only wear them once a week, then 6 weeks later they fall apart because the sole was not glued on properly, I'm sorry, but WTF, it is an inherent defect that will not show itself being worn only 4 times. A warranty is nice, but if faulty parts are used it may not be until the 91st day that the faulty part exposes itself.

On the other hand, it is well beyond the warranty, as zoom and others stated.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/AlRedCar/Picture1-1.png

So what you'll see here is Truemagellen vouching for Mike (the seller). This is all well and good, but he then later refutes this stance, claiming that Mike had, in some way, shape, or form, damaged the kit... Interesting stance, this one...

C'mon.....Jason was only trying to help Mike sell a part that Mike had already paid for, and was still in their possession, trying to reassure posters looking at Mikes thread that it had never left the warehouse, and was not some kit that had bounced around from one buyer to another buyer, which each buyer doing who knows what to it. Key words: STILL IN THEIR POSSESSION. Sorry man, but once a part leaves their hands, they have no control over it. They have no idea what may have happened to the part once it leaves their hands. Especially WAY after the warranty period.

The only thing you should pull from this post is that he was trying to help the seller out.

Did you not know what the warranty was when you purchased it? Or how changing hands would affect the warranty? If so, that is on you.

Sadly, the internet has become a means where people can complain loudly and draw attention, to try to publicaly "shame" a company into doing something they are not required to do.