I'm thinking about giving STX a shot next year. I currently have a '93 miata that I run in STS2. I love the way the car handles but it is just too slow. I need something with more power. I have an '04 GT that is my daily driver.

I've been looking at wheels and tires trying to figure out what I want to use. There is a proposal to allow 9" wide wheels and 265 width tires. Threw the little bit of research I've done so far I've found that in the 18X9 size the wheels are either super heavy or too expensive for me. I've found some 18X8.5 that are both light and reasonably priced. And then there are 17X9 that are quite a bit lighter than the 18's and also reasonably priced. With the 18's I'd run either Yokohama's or Bridgestone's in a 265/35/18, for the 17's it'd be same tire manufacturers but in a 255/40/17 since neither make a 265 in a 17.

I'm leaning towards the 17's for both weight and price. What do you guys think?

heavy 18X9 with 265/35/18 or
Light and narrow 18X8.5 with 265/35/18 or
Light and wide 17X9 but with narrow 255/40/17?

Putting the cart just a little before the horse there.... You have a car that has not been moved to STX, and are shopping for wheels and tires that are not legal yet. :lol:

If you are going to do it, it is worth doing right, 18X9 (light ones) with 265s. The RX-8 will need all the help it can get. Assuming that both it and the wheel/tire deal even happen. :uhh:

Putting the cart just a little before the horse there.... You have a car that has not been moved to STX, and are shopping for wheels and tires that are not legal yet. :lol:

More like thinking about it and planning incase the rule change happens and I decide to go that route.

Thanks for the input, though so far the light 18X9's I've found are out of my budget. Maybe I can find something if I keep looking though.

BBS RE 18X9 20.9lbs $449 @ Tirerack.

More here: http://www.1010tires.com/wheelsearch.asp?submit=yes

The enkei RPO3 comes in an 18X9 +40 @ 21lbs.
RPF1 18X9 +35 @ 18.5 lbs

FYI, when Vorshlag (Terry Fair) was doing their best to campaign a E36 M3 in STU they found that the 255/40/17 Neova was pretty much as wide as the 265/35/18 RE01R.

I'm with Jason, if you're going to do it right, it needs to be the 265 Yok, but the 255 would probably be fine for local competition. Look through Team's STU thread for all the good info.

If all the changes go through the RX-8 looks like it would be a fun STX car.

The Dunlops are a great tire as well, not to mention the Toyos and the soon to arrive in 2012 Kumhos.

There is a part of me that wants to try STX, but at this point the cost to run STX seems pretty darn high considering how relatively inexpensive it is to run BS.

The Dunlops are a great tire as well, not to mention the Toyos and the soon to arrive in 2012 Kumhos.

There is a part of me that wants to try STX, but at this point the cost to run STX seems pretty darn high considering how relatively inexpensive it is to run BS.

I have seen the Kumho XS in action. Two of our locals have them, 15s and 16s, have both been run on an STS Civic with good results.

Hmmm STX. Spend more money to go slower. :icon_no2:

BBS RE 18X9 20.9lbs $449 @ Tirerack.

Way out of my budget



The enkei RPO3 comes in an 18X9 +40 @ 21lbs.
RPF1 18X9 +35 @ 18.5 lbs

I didn't know that that low of an offset would work. But if it does that might open up some more options. I just did a price quote on tirerack for the RPF1's in both 18X9 and 17X9 with yokohama's. $1952.00 for the 17's, this is right at the top of what I want to spend for wheels and tires and these are what I was planning on getting if I went the 17" in route. $2584 for the 18's, more than I want to spend. But I can still look for cheaper wheels and maybe I'll adjust the wheel and tire budget after figuring out what everything else will cost. But initially I would say they are out of my budget.

I think I'm still leaning towards the 17's but I'm not dead set on it. We'll see.

The next thing I need to figure out is which coil overs I want to get and what spring rates I want to use. I've got Tein flex's on my miata and really like them, so right now I'm leaning towards the Tein mono flex's. The original spring rates on them were terrible, I tried a few different setups, currently I'm on 12k front and 9k rear, ( 672lbs/in front, 504lbs/in rear ). This gives me a bounce frequency of 2.54hz front and 2.77hz rear, this is way too stiff for daily driving. But the setup I had prior I think was a great compromise between track and daily driving, 9k front and 7k rear ( 504lbs/in front, 392lbs/in rear ). This gave me a bounce frequency of 2.20 front and 2.44 rear, I think this is were I want to start with my RX8. But I'm missing a big piece of the puzzle, I don't know what the motion ratios are. I tried searching and couldn't find them, I don't have the time to measure them myself right now. So if some one knows them and would like to share I'd really appreciate it.

Well since we're talking about stuff out of your budget, I'd just like to say that WedsSport has a 18x9 50mm offset TC105N that's 17 pounds.

I really don't think that the Yoks are worth 80 bucks more per corner than the Dunlops. That saves you about 320 bucks.

The data we have looked at in our region shows that the Star Specs pull similar g's in the corners as the r tires.

The data we have looked at in our region shows that the Star Specs pull similar g's in the corners as the r tires.
On the same car? What type of surface does your region run on? How fresh were the dot-R tires?

I really don't think that the Yoks are worth 80 bucks more per corner than the Dunlops. That saves you about 320 bucks.
Agreed. The two tires are very similar and my WRX/STI/Evo buddies love the new Dunlop Star Specs.

Looking at the specs on Tirerack in a 265/35/18 size, both tires weigh 28lbs and have a 25.3" overall diamater. The Dunlops also have 0.1" wider section width than the Yoks when measured on similar 9.5" width rims.

On the same car? What type of surface does your region run on? How fresh were the dot-R tires?

Not the same car or same driver, STX WRX vs. BS RX8. Flame away because its deserved as I should have identified this in the previous post.

Not sure what would be expected in typical g's for a well-setup (tour winning) STX WRX versus the typical BS RX8. FWIW, we've seen similar peak and just slightly lower sustained g's on both concrete and asphalt with the Dunlop WRX versus both hoosiers/kumhos (fresh) on the RX8. In fact, my Hoosiers often look worse, but that is likely driver related. Also for full disclosure, these are MaxQ numbers not accelerometer readings.

It is not a true scientific test, but I was shocked to see how close they were. The times run by the car in question have come down a good second per 60 second course as well since going to the Dunlops from Hankook (admittedly not a great tire).

This might all be for not, because it would be best to have a test on the same day, same surface, same driver, same car....

Hopefully, grm will have a better measure of the new batch of st tires soon.

Maybe Chris at tirerack would know if this is in the works.

I did find this that essentially indicates that the Star Spec is a wash with the Yoks in the dry and better in the rain.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplay.jsp?ttid=107

^ Gotcha. What kinda sustained lateral g's was the STX WRX seeing?

On "fresh" V710's, my co-driver and I see about 1.2g's on the smooth Fedex asphalt (MaxQ numbers). Are you approaching this number when you drive your BS RX-8 on asphalt?

When I first switched to this car from my former DS WRX, I never saw lateral g numbers above 1.05-1.1g's until I got it into my head that the RX-8 could corner much faster than my former car. :)

Is there a particular reason for 18" wheel? Why not go with a relatively cheaper (in wheel and tire prices) 17X9.5 or 17X10? I know for a fact a 17X9.5 +45 offset wheel fits with a 275/40/17 or 255/40/17.

Is there a particular reason for 18" wheel? Why not go with a relatively cheaper (in wheel and tire prices) 17X9.5 or 17X10? I know for a fact a 17X9.5 +45 offset wheel fits with a 275/40/17 or 255/40/17.

I would guess because the wheel sizes you listed are not legal via the current proposal. Limit in the proposal is a 9" wide wheel and 265 tire. I doubt within the same brand/model tire you will see a 255-17 that is wider than a 265-18.

I currently run my RX-8 in STU. I've run cars in both stock classes on r-comps and ST classes on street tires. Even though the RX-8 is the current favorite in BS, I went with STU for a couple reasons, but mainly one big one. I can't stomach throwing away $1200 on a set of tires that will last, in the end, about an hour or two. The thousand-dollar mark put it over the edge, for me. That's just me - I totally understand that to some people that's cool and they'll pay to play. I just don't want to, and I'm not thrilled about the idea of relying on finding used tires.

I would rather spend the money on parts I can keep.

Besides that, I don't have a lot of practical experience setting a car up. I've read some books and I understand some stuff in theory, but I want to have the experience of making changes to a car and feeling the results.

In 18-inch sizes, competitive street tires, it turns out, are just as expensive as r-comps. That's the punch line. So I run 17" wheels with 275 Azenis. I will likely do the same next year, but with some lighter wheels. I'll probably have to settle for 255s instead of the possible 265 maximum width, since I can't find 265/17s. That is, of course, assuming the changes happen.

Am I paying more, in the end, to go slower? Yeah, but I'm learning new stuff, too. That's worth it to me.

I doubt within the same brand/model tire you will see a 255-17 that is wider than a 265-18.


it made them feel better to say it, plus it actually fit in the well where the 265 did not :mdrmed:

I really don't think that the Yoks are worth 80 bucks more per corner than the Dunlops. That saves you about 320 bucks.

The data we have looked at in our region shows that the Star Specs pull similar g's in the corners as the r tires.

Very true and I've thought about that. I don't have any experience with these tires, but from what I've heard they have ton's of grip but feel like crap. Feel is very important to me. On my miata I run the Bridgestones and love how they feel. Prior to them I was on azenis's and could never feel what the car was doing.

I would rather spend the money on parts I can keep.


Says the guy who's considering not keeping said parts :lol:

You going to Parkland this weekend?

gotta call BS on Dunlop SS pulling similar Gs to a Hoosier A6 :rolleyes:

I hope that the STX proposal goes through for the RX8 but I'm not sure that the 9"/265 proposal should happen at the same time. I'd like to be able to run a 9"/265 combo but I think that it may be possible for the RX8 on the 8"/245 combo to keep up with the current crop of STX cars. If we can't keep up with the E36's on 245's I don't see any advantage coming from the 265's. Although, the 265's could knock out all those STS guys on 8" wheels ;) We just have to hope no one ends up making a 265/35R15 or the '89Si will really dominate STX :eek:

My hope if for the 8"/245 setup. I've been looking at the 15.6lb 17x8 ET45 RPF1's with 245/40R17 Star Spec's for $1548 from TTR. Second on my list is the closeout 15.4lb 17x8 ET45 Kosei K1 TS wheels with the same Dunlops for $1348 (approx the same cost of my last set of 285 A6's by themselves).

Says the guy who's considering not keeping said parts :lol:

You going to Parkland this weekend?

Check the registration list. :p

As for the parts, Stance is treating me real well so far. :)

gotta call BS on Dunlop SS pulling similar Gs to a Hoosier A6 :rolleyes:

I just looked at the data again now that I have opened myself up to scrutiny, and it is amazingly close with peak g's being higher for the Dunlops.

Here are some of the data on concrete.

it made them feel better to say it, plus it actually fit in the well where the 265 did not :mdrmed:


If you're talking about Terry, I explicitly said that he was comparing the 17" Yok to the 18" B-stone. And yes, the 265s didn't fit well under those skinny E36 fenders.

I just looked at the data again now that I have opened myself up to scrutiny, and it is amazingly close with peak g's being higher for the Dunlops.

Here are some of the data on concrete.
Cito,

I don't have the software to view those files. What were the highest sustained g's for STX WRX as well as your BS RX-8 on that concrete site?

You can download the chart software free from their website.

The numbers for sustained are in the 1.10 to 1.14 for both cars. What you do see in the graph is that the numbers seem smoother for the Hoosiers.

You can download the chart software free from their website.




MaxQData website

http://www.maxqdata.com/downloads.htm

You can download the chart software free from their website.

The numbers for sustained are in the 1.10 to 1.14 for both cars. What you do see in the graph is that the numbers seem smoother for the Hoosiers.
Thanks. On a concrete surface your sustained lateral g's on Hoosiers should be much higher (1.3g range).

FWIW, on 122 run V710's on smooth Fedex stadium asphalt, Shawn and I saw sustained lateral g's in the 1.09 range at our last local event.

I have been unhappy with the Hoosiers that I am running. They are 245's, and they were fresh (18 runs) when these numbers were obtained.

Numbers with fresh V710's on another RX8 were higher for peak readings being in the 1.28 range at times.

I have never seen readings higher than 1.2 for sustained sweepers. The reason for this certainly could be driver related. Who knows?

Data from two different cars, with two different drivers, on two different tires... :icon_no2: That is like saying the earth is flat, a few people might buy it.

They are what they are...I already disclosed the problems with the data--albeit somewhat tardily.

Do a test for Sportscar already.

They are what they are...I already disclosed the problems with the data--albeit somewhat tardily.

Do a test for Sportscar already.

Just need them to send a set over... But I think next time we will use an ST class car. Might be fun to put sticky tires on Jung's STU car, and see how far off of Berry's Evo it is.

But it would be well into next year before we have time. Just finished one tire test, and still have a head to head car test to do. Plus we have another Club Racing car ready to be built for 2009.

Gigo ...

So no one knows the motion ratio's?
I guess if we go on strike next week I'll have the time to measure them, just need to find some were to do it.

I really hope both rule changes go through, I'm getting pretty excited about doing this.

the motion ratios have been posted before, the issue is nobody knows how to search ...

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=2157251&postcount=42

the motion ratios have been posted before, the issue is nobody knows how to search ...

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=2157251&postcount=42

Thank you.

I guess I must just suck at searching because I did try.
I just figured out why the search wasn't working for me. I kept trying "motion ratio", should have tried "motion ratios"

Data from two different cars, with two different drivers, on two different tires... :icon_no2: That is like saying the earth is flat, a few people might buy it.

a few?
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/

I just got done reading the October fasttrack and if I'm reading it correctly it looks like the RX-8 got removed from the STX exclusion list and also 2wd vehicles get max wheel width of 9" and max tire width of 265. I'm going to run STX for sure now. There's also some interesting changes in other classes.

I just got done reading the October fasttrack and if I'm reading it correctly it looks like the RX-8 got removed from the STX exclusion list and also 2wd vehicles get max wheel width of 9" and max tire width of 265. I'm going to run STX for sure now. There's also some interesting changes in other classes.

FWIW I just heard that not everything included in this months Fasttrack was approved so don't go buying anything just yet. Guess moving the Acura Integra Type-R to BS might be of interest here.

FWIW I just heard that not everything included in this months Fasttrack was approved so don't go buying anything just yet. Guess moving the Acura Integra Type-R to BS might be of interest here.

Nah, that proposal is just to sink the ITR. It can't compete with BS.

Wouldn't the ITR be better off in GS?

They're trying to kill it, not make it more competitive.

Odd, I thought DS had the softer PAX...

Hmmm STX. Spend more money to go slower. :icon_no2:

I gotta disagree with you there, well partially. I sold my STU Evo to come to the dark side of stock class because I thought it would be cheaper. The fact of the matter is that one set of ST tires would last me all year in 3 clubs, Topeka and a few other misc. events (Yes, my GF prays for the offseason). To run the same in stock class, it cost me 3 sets of tires that cost almost twice as much. By my math, all my the go fast parts for a ST car would be paid for in a year, just in tire savings. Plus, you can sell the parts when you are done with the car and get half that money back. Plus, you can drive the car to the event on the tires you plan on compete on.

I just don't know if the RX8 would be competitive enough in STX. I think that the 8 would be a handful on street tires. I would like to see it, though. If it could be competitive, I would consider it.

Slower, yes no doubt there but the index is soft.

I gotta disagree with you there, well partially. I sold my STU Evo to come to the dark side of stock class because I thought it would be cheaper. The fact of the matter is that one set of ST tires would last me all year in 3 clubs, Topeka and a few other misc. events (Yes, my GF prays for the offseason). To run the same in stock class, it cost me 3 sets of tires that cost almost twice as much. By my math, all my the go fast parts for a ST car would be paid for in a year, just in tire savings. Plus, you can sell the parts when you are done with the car and get half that money back. Plus, you can drive the car to the event on the tires you plan on compete on.

I just don't know if the RX8 would be competitive enough in STX. I think that the 8 would be a handful on street tires. I would like to see it, though. If it could be competitive, I would consider it.

Slower, yes no doubt there but the index is soft.

The competitive guys I know in ST, included the two time STU ProSolo champ, use as many tires as I do. I drive to the local events on my competition tires, this includes all local events as well as our tour/pro (60+ miles each way for me), as does he. However, when we both go out of town neither of us travel on our competition tires - what fast ST guys have extra wheels and tires or even trailer their cars, yes they do. :uhh:

I used up two sets of tires in 2008, and have two more sets from Topeka each with about 12 runs on them - these will get me well into 2009.

My car is comfortable, smog legal in CA (unlike the ST guys) and is driven every day. I spent about $3k to set it up in 2005, and expect I could get a 50% return on my parts.

No way you can build and run a competitive ST car for the same money as a stock class car. You want to build a backpacker with ebay parts, I'm sure you will be successful at saving some money, but little else.

The harsh reality is you will spend more money and you will be going slower. STU is still not running BS times, STX is only further off.

I gotta disagree with you there, well partially. I sold my STU Evo to come to the dark side of stock class because I thought it would be cheaper. The fact of the matter is that one set of ST tires would last me all year in 3 clubs, Topeka and a few other misc. events (Yes, my GF prays for the offseason). To run the same in stock class, it cost me 3 sets of tires that cost almost twice as much. By my math, all my the go fast parts for a ST car would be paid for in a year, just in tire savings. Plus, you can sell the parts when you are done with the car and get half that money back. Plus, you can drive the car to the event on the tires you plan on compete on.

I just don't know if the RX8 would be competitive enough in STX. I think that the 8 would be a handful on street tires. I would like to see it, though. If it could be competitive, I would consider it.

Slower, yes no doubt there but the index is soft.

I'm running in STU this year, and I'll be in STX next year. No, I'm not a 'national level' competitor, though if work allows me to at some point I really want to make it out to more national events and the championship.

Yes, the RX-8 is a handful on street tires, but once I stiffened mine up a lot and worked out the balance, roughly, it became a hell of a lot of fun. Faster than BS? No, but still fun. I have a lot of work to do yet, but I'm enjoying that work.

Anyway, the only point I really wanted to make is that you're in IL and we have an event in Rantoul next weekend. Come on down! :D

I drive to the local events on my competition tires, this includes all local events as well as our tour/pro (60+ miles each way for me), as does he.

Some of us don't have tire contracts. ;-)

No way you can build and run a competitive ST car for the same money as a stock class car. You want to build a backpacker with ebay parts, I'm sure you will be successful at saving some money, but little else.

The harsh reality is you will spend more money and you will be going slower. STU is still not running BS times, STX is only further off.

Hear hear. Exactly what he said.

See this for details (http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Autocross#Street_Touring_Classes)

STU: The idea is to take a really nice expensive street car, make it uncomfortable and barely streetable, then not let it run DOT R's, so it'll go slower than the stock version of the same car.

Some of us don't have tire contracts. ;-)



Neither do I. :)

And I have been driving on Rs for over 10 years, long before I was ever given or won any tires. They are street legal, and I have never seen any signs of deterioration from driving to/from events on them, no reason not to do it for local stuff. Driving back and forth from the SD tour each day, 68 miles each way, was not even enough to take the rubber buildup off the tires. People make a big deal out of nothing when it comes to the fear of driving on competition tires.

Eh? I thought you had a Kumho contract.

Haha. Cool to know, I've definitely driven a good distance on comp tires before and didn't notice any deterioration either. However, up here in the PNW, it rains a lot. Also, I DD'd my car. ;-)

Street tires are teh suxorz

Eh? I thought you had a Kumho contract.

Haha. Cool to know, I've definitely driven a good distance on comp tires before and didn't notice any deterioration either. However, up here in the PNW, it rains a lot. Also, I DD'd my car. ;-)

Use to, ran H tires one year... Once you leave, you don't get back on the train. However, my wife still has a contract. ;) I am to lazy to repeat 2003, take two sets of wheels and tires to every big event, and do multiple tire changes. Now if something came along that was significantly quicker (like the A3S03 VS Victoracer in 2003) then it would be worth the effort.

I have daily driven every one of my autocross cars. RX-8 has 51k on it now. :tear: Just a lot less work to change the tires at home in the garage, and not have to haul all the crap with me.

The competitive guys I know in ST, included the two time STU ProSolo champ, use as many tires as I do. I drive to the local events on my competition tires, this includes all local events as well as our tour/pro (60+ miles each way for me), as does he. However, when we both go out of town neither of us travel on our competition tires - what fast ST guys have extra wheels and tires or even trailer their cars, yes they do. :uhh:

I used up two sets of tires in 2008, and have two more sets from Topeka each with about 12 runs on them - these will get me well into 2009.

My car is comfortable, smog legal in CA (unlike the ST guys) and is driven every day. I spent about $3k to set it up in 2005, and expect I could get a 50% return on my parts.

No way you can build and run a competitive ST car for the same money as a stock class car. You want to build a backpacker with ebay parts, I'm sure you will be successful at saving some money, but little else.

The harsh reality is you will spend more money and you will be going slower. STU is still not running BS times, STX is only further off.


I was somewhat competitive in STU, even though I didn't swap tires at events. I never have been able to put back to back days together at Topeka but I did have a finish in '06 that would have put me 5th in class one day. I have trophied at Tour events and was just a tick off of John Tak at a Milwaukee Tour.(He codrove an STU car) :shocking: They do say that the sun shines on a dog's arse every once in a while, though.

I am not saying that the Stock car parts list is less expensive than ST, I believe that the tires are much less expensive. Even shaved, the RE01R's last much longer than the Kumhos. There may be some that shave a set to nothing, but it is not necessary. I would want to confirm this but I am pretty sure that Colin won STU on newer tires this year. I also do not believe that he shaves them.

That being said, there are some of us that spend mega bucks for stock class cars. I know some that have shocks that cost $1,000 a corner (ask Windscreen at the next SEB meeting). That is more than what is needed for a good set of coilovers on an STU car. The problem with ST is that there are so many more upgrades that can be made. I don't think that they are all necessary for talented drivers, though. Tak/ Lieber claimed that they had no power mods (boost) done on their cars when they won BSP. There is a local guy that consistently beats Colin in an Evo that hasn't even done an exhaust on his STU Evo yet.

Anyway, the only point I really wanted to make is that you're in IL and we have an event in Rantoul next weekend. Come on down! :D


Better yet, come up to Chicago. We have a Chicago Region SCCA event on Saturday and a TSSCC event on Sunday, both at Rt. 66 in Joliet. We also have two SCCA events the following weekend to finish off the year. :sad: Here we get 6 runs in a day and much better courses, surface.

I have done Rantoul events before. Usually the end of the year one. Last year I was a little disappointed that we only got 4 runs in a day. It costs too much to trailer a car down there and get a hotel for only 4 runs. Well, too much if it isn't a Tour event. :dunno:

Better yet, come up to Chicago. We have a Chicago Region SCCA event on Saturday and a TSSCC event on Sunday, both at Rt. 66 in Joliet. We also have two SCCA events the following weekend to finish off the year. :sad: Here we get 6 runs in a day and much better courses, surface.

I have done Rantoul events before. Usually the end of the year one. Last year I was a little disappointed that we only got 4 runs in a day. It costs too much to trailer a car down there and get a hotel for only 4 runs. Well, too much if it isn't a Tour event. :dunno:

Well, we run so late in the year that we start running out of daylight by the last event. :) Four runs is certainly not typical; this season we've usually done 5-7, plus fun runs. With a co-driver one weekend, my car did 30 runs.

I'd like to try a Chicago event. I hear they're huge and very well-run. I have family visiting this weekend, though, so I can't make it. I'm also working some crazy hours at the office.

I have done Rantoul events before. Usually the end of the year one. Last year I was a little disappointed that we only got 4 runs in a day. It costs too much to trailer a car down there and get a hotel for only 4 runs. Well, too much if it isn't a Tour event. :dunno:

I don't think it's too expensive when you consider that it delays the withdrawal that much longer (since the season doesn't pick up again until April).

I don't think it's too expensive when you consider that it delays the withdrawal that much longer (since the season doesn't pick up again until April).


I am debating on whether or not to go this year. I guess I will see how bad the bug bites me. Besides, I kind of made an arse of myself last year complaining about a dnf that I was sure that I didn't do. That was a lesson in humility I could have done without. :whipping:

I am debating on whether or not to go this year. I guess I will see how bad the bug bites me. Besides, I kind of made an arse of myself last year complaining about a dnf that I was sure that I didn't do. That was a lesson in humility I could have done without. :whipping:

I hit our timing lights once. Does that make you feel better? :P

I hit the timing lights at nationals last year in an STU car. :P

I am debating on whether or not to go this year. I guess I will see how bad the bug bites me. Besides, I kind of made an arse of myself last year complaining about a dnf that I was sure that I didn't do. That was a lesson in humility I could have done without. :whipping:

Hey, I remember that. :lol:

I was the the guy in the sunlight silver #14.

It's cool man, no hard feelings. It was very big of you to apologize afterward. Come on back and race with us.

I was somewhat competitive in STU, even though I didn't swap tires at events. I never have been able to put back to back days together at Topeka but I did have a finish in '06 that would have put me 5th in class one day. I have trophied at Tour events and was just a tick off of John Tak at a Milwaukee Tour.(He codrove an STU car) :shocking: They do say that the sun shines on a dog's arse every once in a while, though.

I am not saying that the Stock car parts list is less expensive than ST, I believe that the tires are much less expensive. Even shaved, the RE01R's last much longer than the Kumhos. There may be some that shave a set to nothing, but it is not necessary. I would want to confirm this but I am pretty sure that Colin won STU on newer tires this year. I also do not believe that he shaves them.

That being said, there are some of us that spend mega bucks for stock class cars. I know some that have shocks that cost $1,000 a corner (ask Windscreen at the next SEB meeting). That is more than what is needed for a good set of coilovers on an STU car. The problem with ST is that there are so many more upgrades that can be made. I don't think that they are all necessary for talented drivers, though. Tak/ Lieber claimed that they had no power mods (boost) done on their cars when they won BSP. There is a local guy that consistently beats Colin in an Evo that hasn't even done an exhaust on his STU Evo yet.

Is being somewhat competitive like being a little bit pregnant? :lol2: What does a 2006 tour, where you did not run an RX-8, have to do with the cost to set up or competitiveness of an ST RX-8? Far as I can see from those results (pending a weather report, because I can’t seem to recall if it rained at that event) it just further proves my point – an STU Evo that would be an AS car was 6sec slower than AS, more money to go slower.

I don't think even the fast ST tire guys are still trying to sell “the tires last longer” bit. The RE01R is equal sizes (245-18) is about $40 less than a V710, and that is before $15 per tire for shaving – not much of a savings. There is also contingency money from Kumho, or tires from Hoosier for a natl win. I don’t recall any support for ST.

I have yet to see any proof that you need to spend the money for high dollar shocks in stock. I know that Windscreen likes to tweak on stuff and has spent a lot. I also know the fastest vette in SS this year was on single adjustable Konis. btw FS and BS also won on Koni sports.

I sure hope when Liber/Tak ran the EVO in ESP they did not have boost, those mods were not legal till the next year. :uhh: Even in 2006 when boost mods were legal all they had to beat was their old 2005 car, which also did not have boost mods, and had a driver that had not sat in the car before that day.

Guess we will just agree to disagree. :)

Jason,

Do you agree that auto-x is about having fun?

It's clear that, to me, a) speed and b) money spent are the primary factors to your definition of 'fun'. Why do you keep beating people up over ST because of what *they/we* consider fun and what *they/we* do to our cars, and how much $$ *they/we* spend in the quest for "having fun"?

For almost as long as I've known you, you constantly harped on "how slow ST is compared to other classes for the money spent". By your definition, you're right. They are slower. However, thankfully, most of us that make up ST don't abide by your definition of fun. :) You can't/don't want to understand? Fine. You like stock. You like R-comps. Great. But I put this out there to you: where's the challenge in R Comps?

R-comps can only be driven 1 or 2 ways, on 1-2 different brands. The challenge isn't the same as those that try ST. Which tires to get? How to set-up for those tires? How to maximize grip out of the sets you've chosen? There are way more factors that go into setting up a car to be faster (compared to other cars in the SAME class) than trying to set up a stock car to be faster than the rest of your class.

Stock: Get the fastest tires that fit on your wheel. Good shocks and you're good to go. Copy a forumla that's been around since the beginning of r-comps.

ST: There's no one 'proven forumla'. With new tires, new cars, come new challenges. :)

So, if you don't like the challenge ST provides on streets, that's fine. I can understand how you feel. Go get 'em.

--kC
(Oh, and hi and congrats on another win this year. :) )

Hey, I remember that. :lol:

I was the the guy in the sunlight silver #14.

It's cool man, no hard feelings. It was very big of you to apologize afterward. Come on back and race with us.


Thanks for the kind words but I still feel like an idiot. I was so stuck on the fact that I was too good to dnf. Ugh! What a bafoon. :banghead:

Anyway, I will see what the budget looks like for that event this year. Do you guys have an online registration yet? That would help speed up the registration process in the morning which would give more time for more runs.

As a matter of fact we do.

http://ccsportscarclub.org/registration/

Sign up and come on down!

Is being somewhat competitive like being a little bit pregnant? :lol2: What does a 2006 tour, where you did not run an RX-8, have to do with the cost to set up or competitiveness of an ST RX-8? Far as I can see from those results (pending a weather report, because I can’t seem to recall if it rained at that event) it just further proves my point – an STU Evo that would be an AS car was 6sec slower than AS, more money to go slower.

I don't think even the fast ST tire guys are still trying to sell “the tires last longer” bit. The RE01R is equal sizes (245-18) is about $40 less than a V710, and that is before $15 per tire for shaving – not much of a savings. There is also contingency money from Kumho, or tires from Hoosier for a natl win. I don’t recall any support for ST.

I have yet to see any proof that you need to spend the money for high dollar shocks in stock. I know that Windscreen likes to tweak on stuff and has spent a lot. I also know the fastest vette in SS this year was on single adjustable Konis. btw FS and BS also won on Koni sports.

I sure hope when Liber/Tak ran the EVO in ESP they did not have boost, those mods were not legal till the next year. :uhh: Even in 2006 when boost mods were legal all they had to beat was their old 2005 car, which also did not have boost mods, and had a driver that had not sat in the car before that day.

Guess we will just agree to disagree. :)

The fact that I look a little bit pregnant has nothing to do with this conversation.:lol:

I can agree to disagree. That is what these forums are about, seeing differenct perspectives on things (what I needed in the above situation).

Just for the record, Bridgestone has contingency and you still could qualify for Mazda money if you could get an 8 to go fast enough to win a ST class. Good point on the shocks. I guess it still comes down to that talent thing. (Which I would still like to be able to protest, I haven't been able to buy it anywhere.)

I will not doubt the fact that ST is slower. There is no doubt about that. I just question the cost part. I can't believe how much I spent on rubber this year, over what I have spent in the past. Yes, the Kumhos don't look much more expensive but you can get a $100 discount on a set for being an SCCA member. Plus, the Kumhos lose grip after 70ish runs which is the equivalent of shaving a set of ST tires. (which I thought you proved that shaving wasn't faster? :uhh: )

I was referring to the '06 Tak/Lieber car.

I did write Colin just to prove my sanity. These were his responses:

I ran the same set that I ran from the Bridgestone tire test the day after the Milwaukee Tour. They currently have ~60 runs on them and they started as 5-6/32" shaved. They have a lot of tread left on them still. I only ran my one set of used Yokohamas up through the Milwaukee Tour. ST cars, as far as tires go, are much more cost efficient in my mind.


-Colin

40, 45 runs at Nationals. They don't seem to lose grip over time like the R-comps do. The Bahrs ran those ones last year that looked like Hoosiers by the end of the season.

-Colin

Guess I was wrong about the shaving part. :dunno: Anyway, I still don't think that an RX-8 could win STX even with 265's. So, this is all for nothing anyway. Well, I guess that it beats working.

As a matter of fact we do.

http://ccsportscarclub.org/registration/

Sign up and come on down!

That is good to know, it should help out your club tremendously, too.

Unfortunately, your last events are the same dates as our last Chicago events. I need to seal up my class victory, so I will be competing there. I thought you guys usually did a November event every year?

That is good to know, it should help out your club tremendously, too.

Unfortunately, your last events are the same dates as our last Chicago events. I need to seal up my class victory, so I will be competing there. I thought you guys usually did a November event every year?

We will have an event November 15th and 16th. Pre-registration for each event doesn't go up until a couple weeks before.

We will have an event November 15th and 16th. Pre-registration for each event doesn't go up until a couple weeks before.

I marked it on my calendar but it is the same weekend as one of our awards banquets. I may be able to make the sunday event, though. It is my birthday weekend and it may make a nice present to myself.

Stock: Get the fastest tires that fit on your wheel. Good shocks and you're good to go. Copy a forumla that's been around since the beginning of r-comps.

There we go, now we've gotten to the point. This is just a difference in ideology. Autocross, in most of our opinions, is about equalizing cars and making it as much about driver as possible. This is why I road race Spec Miata.

You, on the other hand, are talking about how you love being able to mess with 47 different car parameters, and how that's the "challenge" to you. So, for you, it's about spending endless hours finding the best car setup. It's just a difference in approach. I have no real interest in that aspect of the game.

I sold my Street Mod project for a variety of reasons, not least of which was that I realized that in the end, it was just an arms race, not a driver battle. That's why the best drivers in autocross are in stock classes. Some of the other classes may be more "fun to drive" (and I'm going to just let us disagree here.. I hate running on street tires, but that's a personal opinion, I'm mostly talking about P and SP classes) but they also cost a lot more. In the end, I have a hard time justifying spending 3x as much money to get into an arms race in a car with significantly less ultimate grip than the equivalent stock class car that, in this instance, you can throw 550$ yellows and a 1300$ set of tires at, and be somewhat nationally competitive right out of the hole.

(Disclaimer: I'm leaving this afternoon for Utah to pick up an Elise I just bought and getting rid of my RX-8 ASAP, so add appropriate levels of sodium chloride to the above.)

There we go, now we've gotten to the point. This is just a difference in ideology. Autocross, in most of our opinions, is about equalizing cars and making it as much about driver as possible. This is why I road race Spec Miata.

Which brings this thread full circle back to the questions of what to use for a setup to run in STX competitively at least on a regional basis and to see if anyone thinks that the 8 can be competitive at a national level with the new STX tire/wheel rules? I modify my car for the track and then see where it slots for AutoX but I'd at least consider tweaking it to drop down to STX since that's a more competitive regional class for me (BSP and STU tend to get thrown into a PAX group).

Besides the problem with running stock is that your car is pretty damn stock. Chicks dig the big wheels. ;)

There we go, now we've gotten to the point. This is just a difference in ideology. Autocross, in most of our opinions, is about equalizing cars and making it as much about driver as possible. This is why I road race Spec Miata. And on the other hand, I love the fact you have have varied cars in the top of the class and rather dislike spec classes, which BS has become (and you can't tell me spec miata, every car is the same...*cough* sunbelt *cough*) ;)

You, on the other hand, are talking about how you love being able to mess with 47 different car parameters, and how that's the "challenge" to you. So, for you, it's about spending endless hours finding the best car setup. It's just a difference in approach. I have no real interest in that aspect of the game.And stock is stock for that reason. ST and above exist for those that like to 'play' against other cars of like capabilities*. It's another level of challenges. Not only do you have to drive very well to win, you also have to have a bit of knowledge on car set-up. The real challenge is eeking out the best you can on street tires. IMHO, driving quick on street tires is a greater challenge than driving quick on r-comps by a large margin. Sure, in stock the cars are set up almost the same and it's a drivers game. I contend that the higher classes throw other factors into the game that extends the same old drivers game to new heights. You still gotta drive the car fast in *any* class to win.

--kC
*STS Civics excluded... it's amazing how that class is all Civics. Mine isn't an STS car anymore anyways.

Chicks dig the big wheels. ;)

You may want to get those types of chicks checked out at the gyno before you touch them. ;-)

(and you can't tell me spec miata, every car is the same...*cough* sunbelt *cough*) ;)
Yeah, tell me about it. I'm not racing again until I get my motor properly rebuilt with a pro head this winter. ;)

As I said, a difference of ideology. I can respect your position, you can respect mine. ;)

Which brings this thread full circle back to the questions of what to use for a setup to run in STX competitively at least on a regional basis and to see if anyone thinks that the 8 can be competitive at a national level with the new STX tire/wheel rules?


The only way to know for sure is to have a competitive driver give it a shot. I would say no, though.

Look at how well Team did this year in Topeka in BS vs. how well he did last year in STU. Then compare the STU times to STX times. I don't recall what class ran what days/ times but I don't think a little more rubber is going to make that much of a difference.

The only way to know for sure is to have a competitive driver give it a shot. I would say no, though. If all goes to plan, I will beg to differ. All I need to do is get rid of my Titan. And that hasn't been an easy task.

Look at how well Team did this year in Topeka in BS vs. how well he did last year in STU. Then compare the STU times to STX times. I don't recall what class ran what days/ times but I don't think a little more rubber is going to make that much of a difference.

You can't compare. No one can. STU and BS don't run same days/same heats/same course. On top of that, it's a mistake do try and draw a conclusive result on pretty much ONE data point: Sipe the two years he ran STU. (But yet, the car still got moved :dunno: .

One person tried "a more than basic effort and knew how to auto-x well" in STU (good or bad is not for me to decide). I will say this: The car got moved, there'll be more people trying STX this year in their 8s.

--kC

If all goes to plan, I will beg to differ. All I need to do is get rid of my Titan. And that hasn't been an easy task.



You can't compare. No one can. STU and BS don't run same days/same heats/same course. On top of that, it's a mistake do try and draw a conclusive result on pretty much ONE data point: Sipe the two years he ran STU. (But yet, the car still got moved :dunno: .

One person tried "a more than basic effort and knew how to auto-x well" in STU (good or bad is not for me to decide). I will say this: The car got moved, there'll be more people trying STX this year in their 8s.

--kC

I know that the Topeka comparison is not a great one but what else do we have to compare at this point. It does make a statement that Sipe was so far down in the pack when he was competing in STU and trophied in BS. The question is how much of a difference is there between STX and STU and how much of a difference the extra tire will make.

I hope you are right. I love the R comps but I would like to go back to a ST class myself. I too have a gas guzzling tow rig that I would like to get rid of.

Why do you tow to events? You can fit everything you need for a weekend of autox in a stock class BS rx8 into the car. What would change about going to ST? If you want to be competitive in ST you need an extra set of wheels/tires that are babied and shaved that you switch to at the event anyway.

Why do you tow to events? You can fit everything you need for a weekend of autox in a stock class BS rx8 into the car. What would change about going to ST? If you want to be competitive in ST you need an extra set of wheels/tires that are babied and shaved that you switch to at the event anyway.

You can get a tire trailer to tow behind the 8, for either class. I don't know if it would be much better on gas, though. I can average 14-15 mpg while trailering the car. I know that the 8 would do better than that, even with a tire trailer but it also runs on premium. I wonder what people average with the 8 while towing tires? (off topic, sorry)

The truth is that I have a messed up hip (I wish I could say an old war wound). Spending all day on my feet at an event gets painful enough as it is. If I had to swap tires twice at each event on top of it, I would need a wheel chair to get around the next day. :nopity:

That was another reason to get your shocks. Having rears that could be softened without taking them off of the car would be nice on the days that I decide to street the car.

Jason,

Do you agree that auto-x is about having fun?

It's clear that, to me, a) speed and b) money spent are the primary factors to your definition of 'fun'. Why do you keep beating people up over ST because of what *they/we* consider fun and what *they/we* do to our cars, and how much $$ *they/we* spend in the quest for "having fun"?

For almost as long as I've known you, you constantly harped on "how slow ST is compared to other classes for the money spent". By your definition, you're right. They are slower. However, thankfully, most of us that make up ST don't abide by your definition of fun. :) You can't/don't want to understand? Fine. You like stock. You like R-comps. Great. But I put this out there to you: where's the challenge in R Comps?

R-comps can only be driven 1 or 2 ways, on 1-2 different brands. The challenge isn't the same as those that try ST. Which tires to get? How to set-up for those tires? How to maximize grip out of the sets you've chosen? There are way more factors that go into setting up a car to be faster (compared to other cars in the SAME class) than trying to set up a stock car to be faster than the rest of your class.

Stock: Get the fastest tires that fit on your wheel. Good shocks and you're good to go. Copy a forumla that's been around since the beginning of r-comps.

ST: There's no one 'proven forumla'. With new tires, new cars, come new challenges. :)

So, if you don't like the challenge ST provides on streets, that's fine. I can understand how you feel. Go get 'em.

--kC
(Oh, and hi and congrats on another win this year. :) )

So if you spend more money you have more fun? :dunno: To me it is more fun to go faster, Rs let me do that.

To me the challenge is being the quickest driver on that day, not building the better car.

I know that the 8 would do better than that, even with a tire trailer but it also runs on premium. I wonder what people average with the 8 while towing tires? (off topic, sorry)



I did it once, Wendover 2005, I got 20mpg VS 21mpg with the tires in the car. But like you said, 20mpg with super VS my 12mpg towing with regular, I would rather spend a few extra $$$ and have all the extra stuff. Also if the wife and kid go I need the rig.

So if you spend more money you have more fun? :dunno: To me it is more fun to go faster, Rs let me do that.

To me the challenge is being the quickest driver on that day, not building the better car.
Jason,

I'm with KC. I'm slow -- but I'm working on changing that. Once I feel more confident in my driving abailities, I may undertake a move to an ST, SP or SM class. Many top drivers like Strano, Strelnieks, Cashmore etc have national titles in a stock class as well as one of these other classes that require the ability to set-up & tune a car well.

I don't need to go fast to have fun. Heck, we're just parking lot racers to most people. FWIW, the most fun I've ever had autocrossing was in my co-driver's spin-happy STS2 miata that has over 150K+ miles and probably makes 100hp on a good day! ;) My RX-8 is much faster, but that car is so entertaining to drive at the limit!

My $0.02.

I wonder what people average with the 8 while towing tires? (off topic, sorry)
Eric,

Driving between 73-78mph, with my co-driver, tires, tools and all of our gear for one week, we averaged 23.5mpg on our round-trip to Nats this year. On a highway trip by myself (no tires or gear), I get about 25-26mpg.

Jason,

I'm with KC. I'm slow -- but I'm working on changing that. Once I feel more confident in my driving abailities, I may undertake a move to an ST, SP or SM class. Many top drivers like Strano, Strelnieks, Cashmore etc have national titles in a stock class as well as one of these other classes that require the ability to set-up & tune a car well.

I don't need to go fast to have fun. Heck, we're just parking lot racers to most people. FWIW, the most fun I've ever had autocrossing was in my co-driver's spin-happy STS2 miata that has over 150K+ miles and probably makes 100hp on a good day! ;) My RX-8 is much faster, but that car is so entertaining to drive at the limit!

My $0.02.

If I was going to build a car, it would be so I can go faster. To spend money, and put the time in to build a slower car just seems crazy to me. Street Mod, yes please. :naughty:

Street Mod, yes please. :naughty:
+12345 :cool:

RX-8 + turbocharged 20B + built transmission + well-tuned coil-over suspension + big ass r-comps = :aroused: :evil_laug

+12345 :cool:

RX-8 + turbocharged 20B + built transmission + well-tuned coil-over suspension + big ass r-comps = :aroused: :evil_laug

I don't think I want the higher minimum weight that goes with the 20b. Just put Mckee's setup under the RX-8 body. :cool:

I don't think I want the higher minimum weight that goes with the 20b. Just put Mckee's setup under the RX-8 body. :cool:
It's a toss up in my mind - Strelnieks doesn't seem to think it's that big of a handicap. Either way, I'd have to win the lottery or come into a windfall of loot to build a car like that. A guy can have his dreams though...:evil_laug

Eric,

Driving between 73-78mph, with my co-driver, tires, tools and all of our gear for one week, we averaged 23.5mpg on our round-trip to Nats this year. On a highway trip by myself (no tires or gear), I get about 25-26mpg.

Dang!! I don't know if I would get that without the gear in mine and land don't get much flatter than it is here! Maybe I should plan a road trip in the off season to figure it out. I don't know if I have ever ran the car long enough to empty a tank and check the fuel economy. If the 8 can do that well on gas, I may have to get a tire trailer and a co-driver to do all of the work for me.:naughty:

I did it once, Wendover 2005, I got 20mpg VS 21mpg with the tires in the car. But like you said, 20mpg with super VS my 12mpg towing with regular, I would rather spend a few extra $$$ and have all the extra stuff. Also if the wife and kid go I need the rig.

There is definately something to that as well. It is nice to have room for rains, beverages, tools and maybe even the girlfriend. :bj:

Dang!! I don't know if I would get that without the gear in mine and land don't get much flatter than it is here! Maybe I should plan a road trip in the off season to figure it out. I don't know if I have ever ran the car long enough to empty a tank and check the fuel economy. If the 8 can do that well on gas, I may have to get a tire trailer and a co-driver to do all of the work for me.:naughty:
My car tends to be an exception when it comes to fuel economy. In 50/50 city/highway in my weekly commute, I average about 21.5mpg. To get 25-26mpg on the highway, I need to keep speeds no higher than 70mph with the a/c off.

Hey Eric -

For another datapoint, I normally get 17-18 MPG running 70-75 mph with the trailer fully loaded. My car get's 19-21 mpg on the daily drive and I have gotten 24-25 Mpg on long trips without the trailer.

Chris

Hey Eric -

For another datapoint, I normally get 17-18 MPG running 70-75 mph with the trailer fully loaded. My car get's 19-21 mpg on the daily drive and I have gotten 24-25 Mpg on long trips without the trailer.

Chris

Thanks, Chris. So it sounds like I would get a 3-4 MPG better with a tire trailer behind the 8 but would have to buy premium. Premium costs 20-25 cents a gallon more at an average of $3.50 a gallon for the cheap stuff = about 5.7% or the equivalent of approx. 0.8 MPG's worth of gas. (I think my math is right, I am not an engineer and I am not saying how long it has been since I have been in school.) So the car would save roughly 3 MPG's, going to events. I put roughly 4,000 miles a year going to events with the car. Soooooooo,
4000 miles/14MPG=285 gallons

vs.

4000 miles/17MPG= 235 gallons

50 gallons x $3.50 a gallon = $175.00 difference

If I sold the truck now, I would lose about $5,000 since its value has plummeted with the gas situation.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, I think that I will keep the truck and the few extra benefits, and maybe some tire money. Thanks for the input guys. I have been struggling with what to do all year. Once I do the breakdown, it seems silly to consider selling the truck. I do daily drive the truck mostly but I still think that I would stay ahead of the situation by keeping it. If gas hits $10 a gallon, I may have to do more math. :Eyecrazy:

Well, I think this settles the entire debate for me. I currently campaign a 2002 Miata in CSP with my racing partner and co-driver, and I generally only use my RX-8 as a "Sunday driver". I have grown bored (read: broke) trying to keep the edge with the Miata, and I thought maybe I would try the RX-8 for 2009 after the STX rules changed. I haven't raced in a street tire class in about three years and it seemed like this was my chance to go play in a more serious way again.

But if we collectively think the RX-8 won't have much of a chance, I'll likely just play around in the beater in RallyCross for fun next year. Maybe I'll run the occasional local autocross until I get time, money, and the inclination to build something else one day. :sad:

At least I had a good time throwing the RX-8 around and making some smoke in the fun runs recently. (See sig pic).

I think the RX8 has an excellent shot at STX right out of the gate this year.

--kC

I think the RX8 has an excellent shot at STX right out of the gate this year.

--kC
+12345 Wouldn't be the STX weapon of choice for pro solos, but the car should do quite well in solo.

But if we collectively think the RX-8 won't have much of a chance, I'll likely just play around in the beater in RallyCross for fun next year. Maybe I'll run the occasional local autocross until I get time, money, and the inclination to build something else one day. :sad: .

I don't think that's the collective mindset at all. The RX-8 should be very competitive however be aware that people haven't been building this car for ST so there's going to be experimentation on setup before anyone can determine how competitive (national/regional/local) it can really be. Most of the 'debate' in this thread was whether or not going slower in STX than BS was worth it but that's a debate that is true in almost any car.

Get a good set of 265s on a lightweight set of 18x9 wheels, add a decent set of coilovers, and you will be having a ton of fun out there competing.

Most of the 'debate' in this thread was whether or not going slower in STX than BS was worth it but that's a debate that is true in almost any car.

Ah! You're right, I had misunderstood. I was given the impression from what was being said that campaigning an RX-8 would be an exercise in futility for STX, and that BS was the only place that it would be guaranteed to be competitive. I never really considered BS before because I already had a decent investment in the Miata for CSP, but I was thinking a return to ST* would be fun for 2009.

Back to the drawing boards, then. I'll see what kind of intial development info I can glean from the STU guys, then try to tailor it for STX. This could be interesting.

I don't think that's the collective mindset at all. The RX-8 should be very competitive however be aware that people haven't been building this car for ST so there's going to be experimentation on setup before anyone can determine how competitive (national/regional/local) it can really be. Most of the 'debate' in this thread was whether or not going slower in STX than BS was worth it but that's a debate that is true in almost any car.

Get a good set of 265s on a lightweight set of 18x9 wheels, add a decent set of coilovers, and you will be having a ton of fun out there competing.

I will be on 255x17s until somebody makes a 265x17. If I wanted to spend $250+ per tire, I'd just run stock. :)

STX is a learning experience for me (as was STU this year), so I can't see spending almost twice as much for tires that are 10mm wider.

I will be on 255x17s until somebody makes a 265x17. If I wanted to spend $250+ per tire, I'd just run stock. :)

STX is a learning experience for me (as was STU this year), so I can't see spending almost twice as much for tires that are 10mm wider.
Agreed. Plus there'll be benefits from using a lighter 17" wheel. I'm also not sure a 9" wheel is adequate to properly run a 265 tire.

Agreed. Plus there'll be benefits from using a lighter 17" wheel. I'm also not sure a 9" wheel is adequate to properly run a 265 tire.

I'm not sure what would qualify as 'adequate,' but I ran 275s on my 17x9s in STU this year.

Agreed. Plus there'll be benefits from using a lighter 17" wheel. I'm also not sure a 9" wheel is adequate to properly run a 265 tire.

That's exactly why I chose 17's, while I think 9" is adequate, I just don't think on that width wheel you'll get the full benefit of the extra 10mm.

I'm not sure what would qualify as 'adequate,' but I ran 275s on my 17x9s in STU this year.

Here's hoping you get wheels that don't weigh more than the rest of the car... :yelrotflm

With that in mind, would anyone care to recommend a set of light-ish and relatively cheap 17x9s with a favorable offset for running 255s?

With that in mind, would anyone care to recommend a set of light-ish and relatively cheap 17x9s with a favorable offset for running 255s?

To tell you the truth, I haven't researched this to the point of making a purchase, but this is the short list of wheels I've seen that are contenders:

Kosei K1 TS
Enkei RPF1
5zigen FNo1r-c

I've used the Koseis before. They're light, cheap and look nice. They even come in orange, if you're into that.

To tell you the truth, I haven't researched this to the point of making a purchase, but this is the short list of wheels I've seen that are contenders:

Kosei K1 TS
Enkei RPF1
5zigen FNo1r-c

I've used the Koseis before. They're light, cheap and look nice. They even come in orange, if you're into that.

That's a good start. Thanks! I've used K1s in CSP and DSP before and liked them fine. I think I'll forego the orange, though. Orange and Nordic Green would just be a bit too much like Florida college football.

To tell you the truth, I haven't researched this to the point of making a purchase, but this is the short list of wheels I've seen that are contenders:

Kosei K1 TS
Enkei RPF1
5zigen FNo1r-c

I've used the Koseis before. They're light, cheap and look nice. They even come in orange, if you're into that.
Hey Nick,

Do you know if any of the wheels you listed require hubcentric rings on the RX-8? If so, which ones? From reading Terry Fair's post on sccaforums last night, a 255/40/17 on a 17x9 rim could very well be the hot ticket for rwd cars.

No, I do not. I suspect in the end I'll get Koseis from Tire Rack. If they require centering rings I would expect Tire Rack to supply them like they usually do.

Do you know if any of the wheels you listed require hubcentric rings on the RX-8? If so, which ones? From reading Terry Fair's post on sccaforums last night, a 255/40/17 on a 17x9 rim could very well be the hot ticket for rwd cars.

I know my 18x9.5 RPF1s require a hubcentric ring to fit and it appears that it's needed for the 17x9s as well:

http://www.good-win-racing.com/Mazda-Performance-Part/60-1290.html

Question for those who are building STX RX-8's right now (or were previously in STU), what ride-heights are you going with? With our suspension geometry, does anyone know how low is too low?

P.S. I'm officially going to be taking the plunge to STX in 2010. I've never owned a car for longer than 2 years, but I think the RX-8 will be my first. :cool: I'll have driven her stock for two years by then, and I'd like her to feel like a 'new' car over then next 2 years. They're definitely mods I'd like to do to improve the "fun-factor" of driving the car which I can't do at the present time (Cobb AP, full catted exhaust, coilovers, etc.). I also really like the look of the Mazdaspeed front grill... :wiggle:

Question for those who are building STX RX-8's right now (or were previously in STU), what ride-heights are you going with? With our suspension geometry, does anyone know how low is too low?

P.S. I'm officially going to be taking the plunge to STX in 2010. I've never owned a car for longer than 2 years, but I think the RX-8 will be my first. :cool: I'll have driven her stock for two years by then, and I'd like her to feel like a 'new' car over then next 2 years. They're definitely mods I'd like to do to improve the "fun-factor" of driving the car which I can't do at the present time (Cobb AP, full catted exhaust, coilovers, etc.). I also really like the look of the Mazdaspeed front grill... :wiggle:

Has anyone posted a chart showing the camber curve of the suspension? I saw one for the NC and it looked quite linear. If the RX-8 follows that, then I suspect you could go low as long as you can maintain a sane static camber and have sufficient travel with the springs you're running. Then again I'm not sure what height that is, so this probably doesn't answer your question.

By the way, the 50% off sale for SSR Type C and Type Fs are still going on. The Type F has a 18x9 +50 fitment that is 18.6 pounds.

Has anyone posted a chart showing the camber curve of the suspension? I saw one for the NC and it looked quite linear. If the RX-8 follows that, then I suspect you could go low as long as you can maintain a sane static camber and have sufficient travel with the springs you're running. Then again I'm not sure what height that is, so this probably doesn't answer your question.

By the way, the 50% off sale for SSR Type C and Type Fs are still going on. The Type F has a 18x9 +50 fitment that is 18.6 pounds.
Thanks. Good info to know.

I saw those deals on the SSR's, but when I do build an STX car, I'll probably go with 17's to save even more weight. Many people who have much more ST experience than myself, don't feel a 265 can be effectively run on a 9" wide wheel.

Just to verify, carbon fiber front splitters that attach to an unmodified stock front bumper are legal in ST? See example below from chargespeed:

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/wm.php/images/csrx8blfront2.jpg

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/wm.php/images/csrx8blfront3.jpg

that looks hot!

but do you really think it'll do anything at autox speeds?

but do you really think it'll do anything at autox speeds?
Nope - not at all. :lol: My whole reason for going to STX at the end of '09 will be to build a more fun-to-daily-drive version of my RX-8. Most parts will be for performance some will be for 'looks' but within the ST ruleset.

Depending on how much I feel like spending I may just get the front lip or the full MS body kit. I think Chargespeed windtunnel tests all of their products so at the very worse it won't increase front-end lift and only add a pound or two to the nose. :lol2:

Addition of spoilers, splitters, body kits, rear wings and nonfunctional scoops/vents is allowed. The intent of this allowance is to accommodate commonly available appearance kits, and replicas thereof, which have no significant aerodynamic function at Solo speeds.This has always been my issue with the choice of certain ST rules wording... define 'significant'.

Merriam-Webster has this as a part of the definition: "having or likely to have influence or effect"

At what speed does the splitter start influencing or effecting the downforce? 5mph? 20mph? 40mph? The way the rule is worded, poorly, it's when the downforce becomes measureable, IMHO, as opposed to nothing (static/at rest).

The other thing is... why buy it when you can put $$ elsewhere for a modification that can make you faster? That sometimes paints a picture as to if it's 'functional' or not... if someone wants to spend the money on it over a more common modification.

--KC

The other thing is... why buy it when you can put $$ elsewhere for a modification that can make you faster? That sometimes paints a picture as to if it's 'functional' or not... if someone wants to spend the money on it over a more common modification.

--KC
Agreed - but I'm not in the hunt for any national championships, and really want to build a car that will be both fun on the street and decently competitive in STX.

I doubt that 2" lip will have any effect at solo speeds - I'm sure the 8 sq foot wings allowed in ST will have more of an effect.

P.S. Did you get my e-mail Keith that I sent to info@rallydecals.com? I need to order some stuff... :)

Tuesday I installed an AEM intake on the RX8. During the install I realized that this intake, the mazdaspeed intake, and I assume any intake that uses racing beats ram air duct are illegal. To install the intake you have to remove a panel that is attached to the top of the bumper. Mazda does not consider this panel to be part of the intake, there for we are not allowed to remove it. This issue came up with this same intake on the MX-5 csp cars, http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=271505&page=1&pp=25&highlight=aem , the consensus was that the panel in question was not legal to remove. Some one sent into SCCA for a clarification, in the october fasttrack the clarification came back. Not legal. It seams like the issue is that Mazda call's this panel PLATE,SEAL-RAD. SHROUD, a radiator shroud not an intake shroud. Even though as far as I can tell the actual function of this panel is to direct air towards the stock cold air tube. I attached a pic showing the panel I'm talking about. This really sucks but not much we can do about it. I think I'm going to try to modify the intake to sit above this panel like the stock cold air tube sits, but its going to be really tight and I'm not sure if there is enough room for a filter in there. If that doesn't work I'll end up putting the stock intake back in. I also have a K&N V2 intake but that thing is crazy loud and just sucks in hot air.

Ouch. I was thinking of using the Racing Beat ram air duct with the stock airbox as my STX intake but I guess that's out of the question.

What other parts are you considering - exhaust, ECU tune, coilovers? I'm obviously not going to start my conversion until after Nats in '09, but I already have a list going and money set aside. I would say my biggest "torment" is being limited to 9" wide wheels. I may just say "F&ck IT!!" get a set of the 18x10.5 SSR's that Sipe used, mount some 305 V710's and go get my arse handed to me in BSP!!! :icon_no2:

This has always been my issue with the choice of certain ST rules wording... define 'significant'.

The quote only describes the intent of the rule. The actual legality of any modification is determined by the rest of 14.2.F (allowable parts, total wing area, etc.). Whether or not the mod is effective is pretty much irrelevant.

The other thing is... why buy it when you can put $$ elsewhere for a modification that can make you faster? That sometimes paints a picture as to if it's 'functional' or not... if someone wants to spend the money on it over a more common modification.

Back to the intent, not everyone choses their mods based on what will have the biggest impact at the timing lights :) but for those that do, the rule has to be very specific.

I think the bit about "commonly available appearance kits, and
replicas thereof, which have no significant aerodynamic function
at Solo speeds" is there to is there to ward off the mass of letters from people who think they know what the rule was intended to mean better than the people who wrote it! :lol2:

Ouch. I was thinking of using the Racing Beat ram air duct with the stock airbox as my STX intake but I guess that's out of the question.

What other parts are you considering - exhaust, ECU tune, coilovers? I'm obviously not going to start my conversion until after Nats in '09, but I already have a list going and money set aside. I would say my biggest "torment" is being limited to 9" wide wheels. I may just say "F&ck IT!!" get a set of the 18x10.5 SSR's that Sipe used, mount some 305 V710's and go get my arse handed to me in BSP!!! :icon_no2:

I truly don’t understand your gripe…. The RX-8 gets moved down to STX and you bitch about the new allowance only being a 9” wide wheel, because it is the minimum size wheels for a 265 – and someone planted the idea in your head it wont work good.

But in almost every class, stock and ST, tires are regularly put on “minimum” or smaller wheels.

Any 245-18, stock or ST, has a minimum wheel size of 8”. So under the old STX rules if you ran an 18” you were at the minimum – sure if you ran a 245-17 you were a whooping .5” over the minimum 7.5” wheel.

Every RX-8 in BS has been on a minimum or undersized wheel, regardless if they were on a 245 or 295, for the last five years.

And somehow you are ok with going to BSP on a 10.5” wide wheel with a 305 V710, even though that is the minimum wheel width for that tire? :banghead: :wtf:

The 305 V710's would be fun though. :lol: Seriously, it just comes down to my long term plans for the car. 18x10.5 wheels fit into those plans, 9" wide wheels don't. :icon_no2:

Obviously wheels can be bought and sold...I just wish the ST classes used tire limits instead of wheel & tire limits (with the obvious exception being STU).

Arrrrex which ST rule does that violate? I haven't played with my rad so I haven't paid attention to whether or not radiator modifications would move me out of ST. I don't see anything about it in ST in the October fastrack or minutes:

http://www.scca.com/documents/Fastrack/08/08-fastrack-oct-bod.pdf
http://www.scca.org/documents/Fastrack/08/08-fastrack-oct-solo.pdf

There's something in the '08 rule book on pg 248 regarding changing parts not specific to the intake to allow for an intake. That it?

And am I wrong or doesn't every intake but RB (w/o the duct) require the removal of that piece?

Guess I'll be running book illegal in STU then although I don't think it is a performance enhancement and I'm not winning anyway so I'm not about to worry about it. And anyone 'building' a STX car should be keeping the stock intake anyway and just drop in a new filter. :)

Oh and whoever mentioned the rear wing I thought limit is 5sq feet?

What other parts are you considering - exhaust, ECU tune, coilovers?

I bought CodingParadox's exhaust off his BS car, custom single exit. I have RX-7 store high flow cat. 17X9 Weds Sport TC005. Probably going to run the new bridgestones when they come out, but might try the new kuhmo, its 3lbs lighter than the REO1R, start spec, and ADO7. Access port, getting custom tuned by mazdamaniac on the 17th. Agency power pulley. 11lb braille battery. Working with Vorshlag on coilovers, undecided on sway bars as of yet, waiting to see how things feel with the coilovers first. Currently trying to figure out what do for the seat. Mine is a GT so I need to swap seats both for weight and head room. I bought some used seats on craigslist for super cheap and then ordered the Bride low max seat rails. The seats were too wide, so I ordered a 15" Kirkey seat. That just showed up today. Haven't had a chance to test fit it yet, but it looks like it will barely fit. I hope it does I really don't want to spend the money for the Bride seats that I know for sure will fit. Yesterday I took a bunch of measurements off my wheels and found that the RacingBrake big brake kit will fit, but that will be a ways down the road. Money's starting to run low and I still need to buy the coilovers, tires, and passanger seat and rails. I'm not going all out with the build, but I think this should be a pretty competitive setup.

Arrrrex which ST rule does that violate?

The way the rule book works is unless it says you can do it, you can't. Since both Mazda and SCCA consider this panel to be for the radiator and not the intake and we don't have an allowance to modify the radiator or any shrouding, we cant remove or modify this panel.

I don't see anything about it in ST in the October fastrack or minutes:

What I was referencing is tech bulletin #2 on page 46. The issue with the this intake and panel on the CSP MX-5 is exactly the same as with our cars. I'm going to double check but I think it might even be the same panel on both cars.


There's something in the '08 rule book on pg 248 regarding changing parts not specific to the intake to allow for an intake. That it?

I hadn't seen that before. I have no idea what partitions they are taking about with the Mini, but if a radiator shroud is considered part of the structure of the car than this also says we cant remove or modify it.


And am I wrong or doesn't every intake but RB (w/o the duct) require the removal of that piece?

As far as I know only cold air intakes or intakes utilizing a ram air duct require the removal of that panel. The K&N V.2, and the racing beat with out the duct don't require the removal of that panel. I've seen other intakes also, but don't remember which ones they are.


Oh and whoever mentioned the rear wing I thought limit is 5sq feet?

The 5 square feet includes the splitter. And this is how I think SCCA has determined what significant aerodynamic function is.

I'm going to double check but I think it might even be the same panel on both cars.

Yep, 56-181L on both the RX8 and MX-5.

I bought CodingParadox's exhaust off his BS car, custom single exit. I have RX-7 store high flow cat. 17X9 Weds Sport TC005. Probably going to run the new bridgestones when they come out, but might try the new kuhmo, its 3lbs lighter than the REO1R, start spec, and ADO7. Access port, getting custom tuned by mazdamaniac on the 17th. Agency power pulley. 11lb braille battery. Working with Vorshlag on coilovers, undecided on sway bars as of yet, waiting to see how things feel with the coilovers first. Currently trying to figure out what do for the seat. Mine is a GT so I need to swap seats both for weight and head room. I bought some used seats on craigslist for super cheap and then ordered the Bride low max seat rails. The seats were too wide, so I ordered a 15" Kirkey seat. That just showed up today. Haven't had a chance to test fit it yet, but it looks like it will barely fit. I hope it does I really don't want to spend the money for the Bride seats that I know for sure will fit. Yesterday I took a bunch of measurements off my wheels and found that the RacingBrake big brake kit will fit, but that will be a ways down the road. Money's starting to run low and I still need to buy the coilovers, tires, and passanger seat and rails. I'm not going all out with the build, but I think this should be a pretty competitive setup.
Interesting parts selection. The Vorshlag stuff should be pretty pricey but quite nice.

The current list of stuff I'll be ordering next Fall is as follows:

1) Fluid Motorsports headers & RX-7 store mid-pipe w/ high flow cat
2) Bilstein PSS9's coilovers
3) Cobb AP (will get a custom tune)
4) Adjustable rear swaybar
5) Wheels & tires

I'm probably going to start with an alignment around -2.5 front, -2 rear and make adjustments front there. I know on A-arm cars you don't need as much static negative camber as the McStrut cars do.

Interesting parts selection. The Vorshlag stuff should be pretty pricey but quite nice.

The current list of stuff I'll be ordering next Fall is as follows:

1) Fluid Motorsports headers & mid-pipe (will add the RX-7 store high flow cat)
2) Bilstein PSS9's coilovers
3) Cobb AP (will get a custom tune)
4) Adjustable rear swaybar
5) Wheels & tires

I'm probably going to start with an alignment around -2.5 front, -2 rear and make adjustments front there. I know on A-arm cars you don't need as much static negative camber as the McStrut cars do.

Forgot about the header, I'll probably do that too. Haven't decided between Fluid Motorsports or Racing Beat yet.

The price isn't set in stone yet for the coilovers, but it sounds like it is going to be pretty reasonable for what you get.

Haven't figured out what I want to do for alignment yet. Need to start researching that. It's definitely nice having a good suspension design. I was talking with a friend that drives an STU evo the other day about tires. He asked if I was going to trailer my wheels and tires, I said no I'll drive on them. He asked if I was concerned about tire wear, I reminded him that one of the nice things about a proper suspension design is we don't need to run crazy alignment settings.

He asked if I was going to trailer my wheels and tires, I said no I'll drive on them. He asked if I was concerned about tire wear, I reminded him that one of the nice things about a proper suspension design is we don't need to run crazy alignment settings.
I'll be driving on mine as well. I need to pick up a pyrometer and figure out what works. I'll probably pick up some cheap all-season Kumho ASX's (treadwear 420 iirc) to use as street tires. They'll wear like bricks even with over -2 degrees of camber.

I drove on my Azenis between events a lot this past season, and by the end of the year they were hard as rocks. Then again, they were also three years old when I bought them. I wish I'd checked that when I picked them up. Live and learn.

I already have a trailer from my r-comp seasons, I just need to put a hitch on the car. I've avoided doing it, hoping somebody makes one that doesn't bolt to the trunk floor. Doesn't look like that's going to happen, so I guess I'll have to bite the bullet.

Anyway, I like towing the tires because it gives me another place to put all my crap. It means I have to tow more crap with me, but it's nice to have a locked place to put everything.

You'll have to forgive my ignorance here, but my recent racing background is with a CSP Miata and not an RX-8. Can you give me a rough idea of the gains to be realized by the Cobb AP? I'm unfamiliar with what kind of potential can be unlocked or what can be optimized through a reflash. (In the Miata, for instance, there was little to be gained unless you had significant power adders or forced induction. A piggyback setup was your best bet to cope with additional fuel needs if you went very far into modification.)

Can somebody give me a brief summary of what we're looking at here?

Can somebody give me a brief summary of what we're looking at here?
Here's my $0.02...

Stock RX-8's vary greatly in terms of what they make at the wheels on the SAME dyno. Some dyno as high as 185-190whp others dyno around 170-175whp. With this said, the first step you should take before modifying the car would be to replace all four spark plugs and coils. On a car with older plugs/coils, doing this can result in a gain of up to 10 whp (note: this is not an increase over stock, just a step in the right direction BACK to stock).

From reading the Cobb AP development thread both on this site and on cobbtuning's forum, it was found that RX-8's lost power with most aftermarket intakes, and they actually recommend using a high flow panel filter in the stock airbox. Their base tune can also be used with a high flow catback exhaust. Mods beyond these require a protune.

With all of this said, a well-maintained RX-8 could see gains up to +5.5%hp & 6.7%tq (according to Cobb). See the dyno graph below:

http://www.cobbforums.com/forums/images/rx-dyno1.jpg

The Map Notes have a better graph which shows actual whp: http://www.accessecu.com/accessport/mazda/US_RX8M_04/Map%20Notes/Stage1%20MTv100.pdf

If headers, midpipe w/ high flow cat, etc are added to the car, AND you get a protune, power & tq should increase even more. TeamRX-8 made ~220whp on his STU car which had a custom intake, exhaust, Speedsource pulleys, etc.

Sounds like this is going to be the tire to have (borrowed from another forum). Any comments Mr. Harvey?

http://www.potenza. jp/lineup/ re11/imgs/ topL.jpg

"The new Bridgestone Potenza RE-11 Extreme Performance Summer tire has
arrived.

I will have more info in the near future but, I can tell you that this
is a North American-spec tire, which is different than the original
version already available in Japan. But, before you think that we are
getting an inferior product, know that Bridgestone North America has
done extensive testing, and has developed a spec that is faster at
street tire autocross competition (where the RE-01R has already been
very competitive) than both the Potenza RE-01R and the JDP-spec RE-11.

The Potenza RE-11 is an Extreme Performance Summer tire developed for
enthusiastic sports car, sports coupe and performance sedan drivers.
The Potenza RE-11 is designed to combine traction, handling and
driving control with good noise and ride comfort. The Potenza RE-11 is
tuned for dry and wet conditions but like all summer tires, it not
intended to be driven in near-freezing temperatures, through snow or
on ice.

The Potenza RE-11 is the first Potenza street tire to incorporate
Bridgestone' s 3D Seamless Stealth technology originally introduced in
their Formula 1 and GP2 racing tires. The Potenza RE-11 features an
asymmetric tread pattern that combines massive outboard independent
shoulder blocks interlocked with a notched circumferential
intermediate rib that provides the lateral stiffness needed to enhance
steering response and increase dry cornering traction. Inboard, a
continuous intermediate rib and notched shoulder rib are separated by
wide, straight circumferential grooves that provide water evacuation
to resist hydroplaning and enhance wet traction.

The tire's internal structure features a custom designed asymmetric
shape that helps distribute footprint pressure more evenly by keeping
the straighter outboard sidewall from "falling down" while helping the
more rounded inboard sidewall resist "falling away" during aggressive
cornering. Two wide steel belts reinforced by spirally wound nylon
provide strength, uniform ride quality and high-speed capability.

Bridgestone Potenza RE-11 tires feature black letter styling and are
available in selected 55-, 50-, 45-, 40-, 35-, and 30-series V- or
W-speed rated sizes for 15" to 19" wheel diameters."

/discuss

Hi Eric -

I have a RE11 sitting about 10ft from my desk....it certianly looks the part ! The Tire Rack will be testing these tires along with the new Kuhmo XS and Yokohama AD08 as soon as the weather cooperates in South Bend. I will post some results and impressions as quick as I have them. Best guess right now would be late April or early May. The test track is buried under 18" of snow right now :icon_no2:

Chris H

Hi Eric -

I have a RE11 sitting about 10ft from my desk....it certianly looks the part ! The Tire Rack will be testing these tires along with the new Kuhmo XS and Yokohama AD08 as soon as the weather cooperates in South Bend. I will post some results and impressions as quick as I have them. Best guess right now would be late April or early May. The test track is buried under 18" of snow right now :icon_no2:

Chris H

Send them to me... We are testing next week. :lach: HEY, I know in South Bend you are still learning in a one-room school house.... But for the billionth time it is KUMHO. ;)

Send them to me... We are testing next week. :lach: ;)

We may be testing in the rain...ya got a "plan b", Jason? :eyetwitch





(no way I'm running on the OEM 400 tread wear M+S tires...)

Send them to me... We are testing next week. :lach: HEY, I know in South Bend you are still learning in a one-room school house.... But for the billionth time it is KUMHO. ;)

i always thought it was kuhmo.

kum-ho just sounds a bit.. off.. to me.

:lol:

i always thought it was kuhmo.

kum-ho just sounds a bit.. off.. to me.

:lol:

it sounds right to me ... :eyetwitch

Send them to me... We are testing next week. :lach: HEY, I know in South Bend you are still learning in a one-room school house.... But for the billionth time it is KUMHO. ;)

I'm not sure how much you will learn by mounting one RE-11 on the test car, but you have my digits if you want to give it a shot :)

Repeat after Jason:

KUMHO :whipping: KUMHO :whipping: KUMHO :whipping: KUMHO :whipping:

Chris "the whipping boy"

We may be testing in the rain...ya got a "plan b", Jason? :eyetwitch





(no way I'm running on the OEM 400 tread wear M+S tires...)

Think happy - dry - thoughts. :uhh:

I'm not sure how much you will learn by mounting one RE-11 on the test car, but you have my digits if you want to give it a shot :)

Repeat after Jason:

KUMHO :whipping: KUMHO :whipping: KUMHO :whipping: KUMHO :whipping:

Chris "the whipping boy"

Where is the confusion? It is clearly spelled out for you in tiny white letters.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_YnIg5-aPG5k/R-BmS3XapjI/AAAAAAAAAag/Ip2xltwYnoQ/DSC_0058.JPG

Think happy - dry - thoughts. :uhh:

If it is dry for only half the day, that will be enough, right?

btw, the tires were delivered today, I'll probably go down to my buddy's shop (where we keep the Corghi) tomorrow and mount them up. :)

If it is dry for only half the day, that will be enough, right?

btw, the tires were delivered today, I'll probably go down to my buddy's shop (where we keep the Corghi) tomorrow and mount them up. :)

Yeah, half a day should still do it... You know me, two runs and I am spent. :lol:

We got ours as well. :biggthump

It is clearly spelled out for you in tiny white letters.


What white letters? :Drooling_ :hitit:

Got room for another?

What white letters? :Drooling_ :hitit:

Got room for another?

One more:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2140/1527752957_1a9217a1ec.jpg?v=0

One more test slot :slap:

One more test slot :slap:

We are just using a Cal Club practice day, bought multiple entries. They have space left, but it is in a small lot inside the speedway, so expect a short (30ish sec) course - good for our test, but hardly worth the drive.

I haven't even touched the car since getting it off the trailer following Nats, just getting a bit antsy

I need an autox fix, but based on that report will probably wait for the SFR event on 2/1

I haven't even touched the car since getting it off the trailer following Nats, just getting a bit antsy

I need an autox fix, but based on that report will probably wait for the SFR event on 2/1


Yeah, good idea. "Testing", in this case, isn't going to be about working on set up, but is going to be about getting data for ULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOSE's use. If it all comes together, you'll be able to read all about it...

SFR #1 (Boondoggle) will, once again, probably be in the 300 entry range, so expect the usual clusterfark. Still, Oakland has really become a very good surface to run on and, weather permitting, it should be fun.:)

From the February, 2009 issue:


What's the Diff?
by Per Schroeder From the Feb. 2009 issue

There’s one key factor when it comes to on-track success: efficiently getting the power to the ground. That’s a pretty easy task when the road is straight, as a set of ring and pinion gears turning a solid drive axle will do the job just fine. Difficulties arise when the going gets curvy.

As a car rounds a bend, the outside wheels have to travel farther and faster than the inside wheels. This difference in both distance and speed must be managed. Why? If the car simply used a solid, locked axle, the inside wheels would have to drag the outer tires—kicking and screaming—along for the ride. The result? Lots of scrubbing and binding. Clearly this setup isn’t a recipe for stable or predictable handling.

Enter the differential. This assembly avoids scrubbing by allowing two wheels on a single drive axle to travel at different speeds. It uses a series of gears to manage this differential in speed while still transmitting power, hence its name.

A standard automotive differential—commonly referred to as an open unit—is found in most production cars. This type of unit does have a shortcoming, as it can allow for excess wheelspin under power delivery if one of the wheels becomes unloaded. The power of the engine will essentially seek the path of least resistance, and if that means lots of smokey wheelspin from the inside tire, so be it.


From Slip to Grip

Alternatives do exist for those who crave an extra dose of performance. Limited-slip and other performance differentials are designed to allow each wheel to travel at its own pace while preventing excess wheelspin from the unloaded side when the hammer is dropped. There are four common performance differential designs: clutch, locker, viscous and gear. Viscous units are rare in racing, so we can cross that option off the list.

The clutch type uses friction discs and springs to preload the differential gears so they don’t spin as freely as they would in an open unit. As the axles try to move at differing speeds, the discs or clutches slide against each other, resisting this action. The result is a partially locked-together axle that still allows differential wheelspin, especially as the clutches wear.

A locker differential is activated and deactivated by the gas pedal: Under power, it locks the wheels together; when the driver lifts off the accelerator, the wheels are unlocked. These actions are accomplished by a series of gears and plates within the unit, and the result is much like an on/off switch. The unit is either locked or unlocked, which can create some instability as power is added in mid-corner. On the plus side, there is nothing to wear out and the units can lead long lives.

Gear differentials, like those marketed by Quaife or Torsen, use a series of parallel worm gears to distribute power to the wheel that has the most traction. The gear differential is typically more expensive than the other types, but it also has nothing to wear out or adjust. There is a downside, however: If one wheel is completely unloaded, the differential can act in the same manner as an open differential, thus making these units less than ideal for bumpier tracks and off-road use.

Finally, as with any attempt at categorizing the world, there are many variations of the three types—all different ways to skin the same cat. Some of the more popular aftermarket units are hybrids of the clutch and locker types. These units provide the benefit of solid lockup on hard acceleration, but the transition from locked to unlocked is generally smoothed out by a series of internal friction plates.


Reality Check

Choosing a differential seems easy enough. Just pick the type that best fits your needs, right? While this approach works for cars like the Mazda Miata and Honda S2000, reality often plays a bigger role in the selection process: Not all differentials are available for every make and model. The Dodge and Plymouth Neons, for example, only leave owners with one option: Get the darn Quaife and go racing.

Longtime GRM friends Peter Lier and Ian Stewart were two drivers searching for that ideal setup, and they were fortunate to have a few available options. Following Ian’s national Solo title in 2007, the pair turned their attention to road racing, specifically the SCCA’s Touring 3 class. They felt that the Torsen unit originally fitted to their Honda S2000 was allowing too much wheelspin. Luckily, class rules allow cars to run any differential. So, which one would they choose?

Knowing a product test opportunity when we see one, we pooled our resources to make this a scientific exercise. We all wanted to accurately compare the stock gear-type unit against the clutch-type Kaaz and OS Giken differentials. Our test site would be the tight and twisty confines of Central Florida’s Ocala Gran Prix. This track is really tough on differentials and would highlight any differences between the three units. Wheelspin, even with the grippiest of tires, will usually rear its head in four of the track’s nine corners.

We ran the stock differential for five laps, followed by the Kaaz and OS Giken units. The conditions throughout the day were quite consistent, and we verified that fact with control runs in a second car. To facilitate rapid swaps, each differential was fitted in its own housing along with the stock ring and pinion gears.


Torsen LSD (stock gear-type)

list price: comes stock
fast lap: 36.79 sec.
mean time: 36.97 sec.

The Honda S2000 uses a fantastic Torsen gear-type differential that has served many autocross and track drivers well. This piece of equipment has many things going for it, including the fact that it comes with the car at no charge. It also has no real bad habits, as it works well and will never wear out. It does, however, leave something on the table. It promotes understeer in tighter corners that eventually leads to wheelspin as the inside tire becomes unloaded. The Torsen also doesn’t lock up the rear axle to the point where a driver can use power oversteer to bring around the tail. Unfortunately, the Torsen’s behavior cannot be changed—it is what it is. Ian liked the Torsen’s high-speed manners. He also found that he could maintain a good arc through the track’s decreasing-radius, high-speed sweeper.

The Torsen-equipped S2000 turned consistent laps in the low-37-second range, with one flyer at 36.79. The average was 36.97 seconds. Now we could move on to the aftermarket units.


OS Giken Super Lock LSD

list price: $1390
fast lap: 36.45 sec.
mean time: 36.61 sec.

The OS Giken Super Lock LSD is a newcomer to the U.S. market, but that hasn’t stopped this unit from establishing a rabid following. Like the Kaaz, the OS Giken is a 1.5-way differential that locks fully under acceleration and only partially while braking. However, the OS Giken uses more clutch plates than the Kaaz; OS Giken says that reduced wear and even more progressive locking action are the benefits.

On track, Ian loved how the OS Giken allowed for part-throttle understeer, then progressively led to oversteer as more throttle was added. The car was easy to modulate and remained consistent from lap to lap.

Essentially, the OS Giken provided the best of the two other differentials: Like the Torsen, the OS Giken was quiet and composed during the high-speed sections; like the Kaaz, the OS Giken allowed Ian to hang out the tail in the slower stuff.

Ian’s times backed up his impressions, as he posted the fastest lap of the day when running the OS Giken: 36.45 seconds. He also clocked very consistent laps that yielded our fastest average of 36.61 seconds. Like the Kaaz, the OS Giken is also tunable for a variety of speeds and degrees of locking. However, we were very happy with the unit as delivered. Its very progressive lockup was just what our duo desired.


Kaaz 1.5-way LSD

list price: $895.50
fast lap: 36.73 sec.
mean time: 36.93 sec.

The Kaaz limited-slip differential is a variation on the clutch-type theme. When the vehicle is coasting, the internal clutch plates rotate freely without any preload, allowing the differential to act like an open unit. However, applying torque to the differential through either acceleration or braking causes a cone-shaped pressure ring to gradually lock the plates together.

The Kaaz is considered a 1.5-way limited-slip differential because it exhibits more lockup under acceleration than braking. A 1-way differential, by comparison, only locks under acceleration, while a 2-way unit exhibits the same amount of lock under both braking and acceleration. Generally speaking, a 1.5-way differential is easier to drive than a 2-way, as braking and turn-in are both smoother.

As expected, Ian found that the Kaaz offered very good exit speeds through the slower corners. “It’s very effective for rotation,” he noted. He also added that it responded almost immediately to throttle application.

The abrupt transition between understeer and oversteer did make for some exciting laps, as he found the Kaaz to be a little dicey during higher-speed maneuvers. For example, a turn that was stable and controlled with the Torsen became an exercise in knife-edge cornering with this unit; the car wanted to quickly transition to oversteer whenever Ian lifted off the throttle.

Despite the sketchiness at higher speeds, the predictable and welcome oversteer in the slower spots helped Ian really lay down some fast sessions. He initially scared himself a bit in that first, fast corner, landing a slow lap time of 37.44 seconds. After that, however, a string of high-36s flashed on the timer. His 36.93-second average was probably a tenth higher than it should have been thanks to that first-lap bobble.

A final word on this unit: While it’s possible to tune the Kaaz, doing so requires tearing down the differential and reconfiguring the clutch discs.This job can be accomplished in a home shop, but it’s probably not feasible trackside.


Two-Wheel Peel
The variety of available performance differentials is immense, each with its own positives and negatives. In this case, our on-track winner was the OS Giken, as it was both the fastest and easiest to drive. The OS Giken did come away with one strike against it, however, as it costs nearly $500 more than the runner-up, Kaaz.

Despite the higher price tag, Ian and Peter ran the OS Giken differential during the season-ending SCCA Runoffs. While Ian finished where he started—ninth out of 18 cars—the results don’t show one important fact: During the race’s opening moments, an overzealous overtaker spun Ian off course and to the back of the pack.

That spin put Ian into catch-up mode for the bulk of the race, and he discovered something else while making up those lost positions: His tire wear was significantly better than expected. “I caught several Kaaz-equipped S2000s that had simply run out of tire on the rear,” Ian noted. “We are very pleased with this differential.”

http://m.grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/whats-diff/

And FWIW, OS-Giken (http://osgiken.net/) has a super lock LSD application available for the RX-8.

From the February, 2009 issue:

http://m.grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/whats-diff/

And FWIW, OS-Giken (http://osgiken.net/) has a super lock LSD application available for the RX-8.

Good article.

Is the 370z one of the few cars using Viscous that would be considered 'trackable' off the line?

Is the 370z one of the few cars using Viscous that would be considered 'trackable' off the line?Elaborate on what you mean by "trackable"?

P.S. I was found Stewart's comment about the Kaaz lsd to be quite interesting as Team used that diff on his STU RX-8 and had mentioned many times that his car was quite loose on course. He attributed part of that to his stiff spring rates...I wonder how much of it was due to his Kaaz lsd???

Elaborate on what you mean by "trackable"?

Cars that come off the assembly line and can perform well on the track with no major modifications. Generally what tend to be good stock autocross cars. Vettes, RX8, Mazdaspeed, Zeds, Evos, etc. are all models that seem to handle well right off the line and have at least some track testing or expectations in their model development.

Cars that come off the assembly line and can perform well on the track with no major modifications. Generally what tend to be good stock autocross cars. Vettes, RX8, Mazdaspeed, Zeds, Evos, etc. are all models that seem to handle well right off the line and have at least some track testing or expectations in their model development.
Anything at this point about the 370Z is just conjecture - a few magazines have tested them - but they can be unreliable sources. Also, when Isley drove one, it wasn't the "sport model" with the vlsd, but the base with the open diff.

I would tink the 370Z would be an 8/10ths track car out of the box, but anyone looking to get into serious track driving would probably want to upgrade to a mechanical lsd pretty early on. If I was in the market for a 2 seater, it would be on my list along with the S2000 CR, pre-owned Cayman S, etc.