Hey guys, I am starting to do some serious research into going FI, but haven't been able to come to an educated decision concerning the different turbo kits available. I am also seriously considering a custom build (by myself with forum/book/mechanic assistance). Before I do any discussion, I will state my goals for the upgrade:

1) Power - very simple goal: 300rwhp
2) Powerband - not as simple: I want a smooth buildup of power, essentially like stock but with a lot more oomph, all the way to 9000rpm. In other words, I don't want to be driving and suddenly loose control of the vehicle because my boost hits in the middle of a maneuver. I want the boost to hit quickly (super fast spool-up time) and to develop a relatively flat torque curve for 4000-4500rpm onwards. I intend to tune it myself (regardless of whether I buy a kit or build a custom system) with the Int-X. I know this category is picky, but it's one of my most important goals.
3) Reliability - pretty standard: after finishing the installation and nailing down the powerband where I want it, I don't want to have anything blow up on me. This basically means I want to keep boost low, but still high enough for 300rwhp. I also want to maintain the lowest engine temperatures possible to prolong component life and improve performance.
4) Appearance - simple aesthetics: I would like the turbo to be visible when I open the hood and to be able to hear a beautiful BOV sound while driving. From staticlag's review of the Esmeril Kit (great thread), he mentioned that an external wastegate also sounds very aggressive and enjoyable.

Applications of vehicle: my car is currently a daily driver, but that will change within the next year and it will become a weekend/project car. At that point, it will be used for joyrides, occasional autocross, and very occasional tracking. Essentially, the car will not be pushed to the limit on a regular basis, but it will happen occasionally.

So...what are your opinions? Are the available kits suitable for my goals? I've read many, many discussions of the various kits, but very few of them go into the complete detail that I'm curious about. Should I look into a buying kit components and modifying them? Or go all the way and build a kit from the ground up?

On a more specific note, do you believe that a fuel upgrade is necessary (from my readings, I think it will be)? How about an ignition upgrade (like the upcoming Esmeril model)?

Time is not a serious object for this project; I would prefer to work on it for two years and have it be amazing than go FI in six months and be disappointed. Thanks in advance for your input.

The Petit Supercharger sounds like your best option. Check out this thread:

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=132628

The orange line is the petit supercharger, flatly increasing power all the way to 9,000, ending up just a hair above 300hp :):):)

Sounds perfect for you. No BOV sound, but as far as your performance requirements go it's spot on what you're looking for. An ignition upgrade is not necessary unless you plan on pushing your hp over 340 or so, at that point you get spark blowout, but nothing a mazsport ignition solution can't handle.

Good call! I hadn't thought about supercharging. There seems to be a lack of torque relative to the turbos of similar horsepower, though. Do you think it would translate into a significant difference in drivability? I definitely think, however, that the Pettit has a beautiful powerband. Thanks for pointing it out.

mazdmaniac version of the greddy turbo.

cant go wrong.

mazdmaniac version of the greddy turbo.

cant go wrong.

Not visible from the top, which is one of his design criteria.

Really, the only proper choice is the MazSport type 2.

Yep, or a custom build.

on the sound side of things, with a Pettit kit, you wont get the BOV whoosh, but you would get supercharger whine....

whoosh or whine, eh, choices choices.... 8)

The Pettit doesn't really "whine".
It kinda grumbles.
Its not like an Eaton.

I just noticed this part of the original post:

3) Reliability - pretty standard: after finishing the installation and nailing down the powerband where I want it, I don't want to have anything blow up on me. This basically means I want to keep boost low, but still high enough for 300rwhp. I also want to maintain the lowest engine temperatures possible to prolong component life and improve performance.

Good luck with that.

^ for number 3.
lol Challenging project! Basically you are asking for a solution that will double the engine output and reliability. :)

And #2, you sure a hell won't get there with Esmerils kit.

Not visible from the top, which is one of his design criteria.

Really, the only proper choice is the MazSport type 2.

Wait until you see Type2 Ver 2:Eyecrazy:

supercharger. if you turbo a car, you are going to get more lag than you seem to want (lag/response is all in your head, everybody has a different tolerance for it), unless it is some bullshit turbo that isn't worth the gazillions you spent on the whole setup.

the Pettit crew was talking about discontinuing the S/C so might not be the best option. (I could be mistaken, check the Pettit thread)

Mazsport 2 or Esmeril are your only options that fit MOST of your criterias. (#3 is a doozy)

I would pick the Pettit SC, but I have a G8 GT now..............

Good call! I hadn't thought about supercharging. There seems to be a lack of torque relative to the turbos of similar horsepower, though. Do you think it would translate into a significant difference in drivability? I definitely think, however, that the Pettit has a beautiful powerband. Thanks for pointing it out.

Yes, 60 extra pound-feet of torque is going to feel VERY different.

Wait until you see Type2 Ver 2:Eyecrazy:

Wait...WHAT?

Wait until you see Type2 Ver 2:Eyecrazy:

yeah, wtf?

he wants to see the snail from the top?

the piping would be more than enough for me... hell, the 300whp would be enough for me. if i could get 300whp n/a i would. :lol: different strokes..

管道疏通 (http://www.bjgdstgs.cn/gdst.htm)高压水射流清洗技术有如下优点：应用范围广，不但可以对管道进行清洗，疏通管道 (http://www.bjgdstgs.cn/stgd.htm)还可以用于工业设备（如换热器、锅炉、塔、疏通管道 (http://www.bjgdstgs.cn/stgd.htm)储罐等）的清洗；对管道设备无腐蚀，疏通管道 (http://www.bjgdstgs.cn/stgd.htm)不污染环境，管道疏通 (http://www.bjgdstgs.cn/gdst.htm)产生的污水易于处理。中拓公司引进德国URACA公司高压水射流清洗设备，其卓越的性能 以及良好的清洗效果受到广大客户的青睐

uhhh!

WTF?

Wait until you see Type2 Ver 2:Eyecrazy:

you let the cat out of the bag!! on your own.. funny..

speaking of cats!? ;)

beers :beer:

u simply bought the wrong car, ive spoken to people with the mazsport, and greddy turbo kits and the car simply doesnt run as good as stock, and goin FI def. wont increase ur reliability status

yea wait till you see the price tag!! 12k ftw!!

u simply bought the wrong car, ive spoken to people with the mazsport, and greddy turbo kits and the car simply doesnt run as good as stock, and goin FI def. wont increase ur reliability status

You are brilliant!

u simply bought the wrong car, ive spoken to people with the mazsport, and greddy turbo kits and the car simply doesnt run as good as stock, and goin FI def. wont increase ur reliability status

You've spoken? :lol:
I just laughed for 2 minuts straight!

http://www.catwack.com/pics/423.jpg

thanks for the feedback. a few issues seem to have arisen, though. first, performance and powerband are my biggest priorities, and i would easily compromise aesthetics for a better-performing vehicle. second, i know that reliability will not improve and will always be an issue with such a significant modification, but i just don't want something that is notorious for engine trouble.

so...the mazsport type II turbo kit and pettit supercharger seem to be the current front runners. i'll search posts concerning both and continue researching. thanks again for your contributions.

Yes, 60 extra pound-feet of torque is going to feel VERY different.


Imagine if it had a turbo installed, that's another 60+ ft/lb more torque on top of that.

Haha, the Mazsport turbo and the Pettit blower are my front runners as well :):) I'm torn completely just like you, I guess I'll keep watching this thread seeing as how nobody will reply to mine :(

Imagine if it had a turbo installed, that's another 60+ ft/lb more torque on top of that.

Yes, when I said that I was referring to the gap between the torque of the Pettit kit and the Mazsport turbo, which upon more careful math is actually 66lb-ft. I figured that was what the OP was asking about as well.

the Pettit crew was talking about discontinuing the S/C so might not be the best option. (I could be mistaken, check the Pettit thread)

Mazsport 2 or Esmeril are your only options that fit MOST of your criterias. (#3 is a doozy)

what thread(s) are you referring to? i hope they don't discontinue the s/c; it seems to have been very well received.

another caveat with the pettit kit: the reflashing of the stock ECU. is the kit still compatible with an Int-X? i read a thread where it was discussed, but i think it was before the kit's actual release. ultimately, i'd like to be able to modify the engine timing myself and i'm not sure (correct me if i'm wrong) how that works with the stock ECU setup.

The Petit Supercharger sounds like your best option. Check out this thread:

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=132628

The orange line is the petit supercharger, flatly increasing power all the way to 9,000, ending up just a hair above 300hp :):):)

Sounds perfect for you. No BOV sound, but as far as your performance requirements go it's spot on what you're looking for. An ignition upgrade is not necessary unless you plan on pushing your hp over 340 or so, at that point you get spark blowout, but nothing a mazsport ignition solution can't handle.

i read the thread and it had some of great info. the mazsport kit dyno posted is type I, though. what about the numbers for type II and III? i've searched and could only find a dyno for type III ("slavearm's mazsport turbo kit dyno"), which has some good information. do you guys think that the type II would make that much more power with its shorter tubing and snazzy liquid-to-air intercooler? enough to justify $1500? just a thought.

i almost feel that the mazsport kits, or at least the size of the turbo used, are almost TOO much, particularly given their price. i'd prefer a beautifully delivered, reasonably reliable 300rwhp to a rough, prone to failure 380rwhp (i really would). on the other hand, a very conservative tune on a mazsport kit might accomplish all goals if the response/spool up time is nice and quick. any thoughts?

EDIT: the thread i discussed from Falken's post contains the dyno for the mazsport type III kit, not the type I kit. however, the type I kit dyno is (I think) on this post:

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=115447

what thread(s) are you referring to? i hope they don't discontinue the s/c; it seems to have been very well received.

another caveat with the pettit kit: the reflashing of the stock ECU. is the kit still compatible with an Int-X? i read a thread where it was discussed, but i think it was before the kit's actual release. ultimately, i'd like to be able to modify the engine timing myself and i'm not sure (correct me if i'm wrong) how that works with the stock ECU setup.



i read the thread and it had some of great info. the mazsport kit dyno posted is type I, though. what about the numbers for type II and III? i've searched and could only find a dyno for type III ("slavearm's mazsport turbo kit dyno"), which has some good information. do you guys think that the type II would make that much more power with its shorter tubing and snazzy liquid-to-air intercooler? enough to justify $1500? just a thought.

i almost feel that the mazsport kits, or at least the size of the turbo used, are almost TOO much, particularly given their price. i'd prefer a beautifully delivered, reasonably reliable 300rwhp to a rough, prone to failure 380rwhp (i really would). on the other hand, a very conservative tune on a mazsport kit might accomplish all goals if the response/spool up time is nice and quick. any thoughts?



It's amazing, your thinking is exactly the same as mine. Conservative tune on the mazsport kit. The mazsport kits all use the same turbo, whats different is that type I and type III have an air-air intercooler and type II and IV have an air-water intercooler. That and where the turbo is mounted. It's not going to make much more power...each kit claims to be able to generate 400whp but no one has yet confirmed that, and if you managed to boost to those levels don't expect your engine to live very long.

Also, remember that the stock 8 only puts out 175whp or so, so 300 to the wheels is a lot already.

Superchargers are much easier to tune than turbochargers

And how is that exactly? Air, Fuel, Temp.... 6 of one 1/2 dozen of the other.

And how is that exactly? Air, Fuel, Temp.... 6 of one 1/2 dozen of the other.

OOh :banghead: I was doing some research and I posted that before I realized I was on a supercharger enthusiast website :):) my bad.

OOh :banghead: I was doing some research and I posted that before I realized I was on a supercharger enthusiast website :):) my bad.

I have 2 turbo's (and built 2 more)..... that is "my bad number 2". :rofl:

I think I should make a car powered by ethanol and nitrox - then I can talk smack abut everyone else.

I was reading through the thread again and noticed this post:

^ for number 3.
lol Challenging project! Basically you are asking for a solution that will double the engine output and reliability. :)

And #2, you sure a hell won't get there with Esmerils kit.

rotorocks (or anyone), why could these goals not be achieved with the Esmeril kit? It's not as all-inclusive as the Mazsport kits, but it still seems like a viable option.

I was reading through the thread again and noticed this post:



rotorocks (or anyone), why could these goals not be achieved with the Esmeril kit? It's not as all-inclusive as the Mazsport kits, but it still seems like a viable option.

I think he was referring to reliability. You get what you pay for in the FI business, and frankly a more complete kit is less likely to break every day. Unless of course you are forcing a 1.3 to vomit out 400whp, in which case it will break fairly quickly.

Pettit = Reliability!! You'll have less to worry about with the SC an u'll have better TQ at lower rpm... I went to pettit for them to put in my turbo, But if u want to install, or have someone else install ur FI go with the SC from pettit. NO boost creep,leak, or spool time. An less heat

Pettit = Reliability!!

Please explain with details to back up your claim.


You'll have less to worry about with the SC

Because more moving parts is less to worry about?


an u'll have better TQ at lower rpm...

Show me proof of this. I haven't seen the Pettit SC power band under 3k. But at 3k and above, my turbo makes far more torque.


NO boost creep,leak, or spool time.t

Why is it that I see the SC dyno results showing an increase of PSI as the rpms rise? No spool time? I reach 12 psi at 3,200 rpm on the GT3071R. You'd be eating my dust from the start line.


An less heat

Uhhh, because liquid intercoolers are so much more efficent than air to air, right? lol. You are a jokester.

Pettit = Reliability!! You'll have less to worry about with the SC an u'll have better TQ at lower rpm... I went to pettit for them to put in my turbo, But if u want to install, or have someone else install ur FI go with the SC from pettit. NO boost creep,leak, or spool time. An less heat

:icon_no2: <-Pokes self in eye with pencil...

Edit: Just so you can't say I am not being helpful.
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=122645

at least he's consistent. He didn't get anything right.

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/misc/rx8club_hp.jpg
http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/misc/rx8club_tq.jpg

Show us where the Pettit is beating anything.

In Ti Carbon's defense, the Pettit curve does have a very desirable shape, even if the other kits have higher numbers. It also reaches a high portion of its maximum torque very quickly. I think the ideal solution would be to try to replicate its shape by flattening a turbo curve through engine tuning while keeping the numbers higher.

I think the ideal solution would be to try to replicate its shape by flattening a turbo curve through engine tuning while keeping the numbers higher.

You can just set your boost controller to adjust how soon boost comes on and how long it takes to peak. Easy to replicate, but people usually want the target boost level to hit as soon as possible, and keep it till redline.

Correct me if this is irrelevant or just plain wrong.

I will post this in the other section too. I am a novice at this so I'm not sure if this matters, but I thought it might be helpful to include hp/psi and tq/psi with the graphs.

Note that I did the calculations by dividing PSI into the amount of horsepower and torque increased from stock, not into total horsepower and torque. Rounded to nearest tenth.

Greddy Turbo - - - - - - - - - - 10.7hp/psi and 11.2lb-ft/psi, 21.9 total
SFR Turbo - - - - - - - - - - - - 15.6hp/psi and 11.4lb-ft/psi, 27.2 total
Pettit Supercharger - - - - - - 17.3hp/psi and 8.3lb-ft/psi, 25.6 total
MazdaTrix Supercharger - - - 15hp/psi and 9.8lb-ft/psi, 24.8 total
Mazsport Turbo - - - - - - - - - 13.5hp/psi and 9.5lb-ft/psi, 23 total
PTP Turbo - - - - - - - - - - - - - 11.9hp/psi and 9lb-ft/psi, 20.9 total
MM Greddy Upgrade - - - - - - 14.4hp/psi and 13.7lb-ft/psi, 28.1 total

From the looks of those figures it seems that the Pettit blower gives the best boost/hp ratio but the worst boost/torque ratio. The best boost/torque ratio is MM's turbo which also has respectable boost/hp ratios, and is actually overall the most efficient.

I'm at a loss as to how boost/hp and boost/torque correlate. I see no pattern, I figured that better boost/torque options had good boost/hp ratios as well but the Greddy does not, and than I figured that good boost/hp options had good boost/torque ratios, but the Pettit supercharger does not.

EDIT: The superchargers have worse boost/torque ratios because they rob the engine from crank power, correct? So assuming that the supercharger was powered by an ideal external source, it would produce better torque numbers? Or does the crank power really matter that much?

EDIT3: Thinking about it now there must be many more variables to consider when finding a correlation here, i.e. exhaust obstruction, inducer diameter, intake volume, etc. Thus the calculations above can be taken as rough at best.

In Ti Carbon's defense, the Pettit curve does have a very desirable shape, even if the other kits have higher numbers. It also reaches a high portion of its maximum torque very quickly. I think the ideal solution would be to try to replicate its shape by flattening a turbo curve through engine tuning while keeping the numbers higher.

I'm very eager to see MM's input on this, apparently shape does not matter as much as "volume under the curve". MM can you expound upon this? Would a mazsport turbo running under lower boost have a flatter curve?

EDIT2: Can someone explain why some lines end before 9,000rpm? The behavior of the turbo beyond 8,000 is fairly important I would say.

psi is a real rough idea of power, but it's not directly comparable between systems because flow rates differ. You want high flow, with low psi - which will result with cooler charge temps.

Given the same psi and flow rate, the turbo would produce more power than a SC because it's going to be more efficient. How much more efficient depends on the blower type and other things, but generally speaking this should be a true statement.

psi is a real rough idea of power, but it's not directly comparable between systems because flow rates differ. You want high flow, with low psi - which will result with cooler charge temps.

Given the same psi and flow rate, the turbo would produce more power than a SC because it's going to be more efficient. How much more efficient depends on the blower type and other things, but generally speaking this should be a true statement.

If that's so than flow rate should definitely be included with those graphs.

you going to buy each kit and measure the flow rates for us? :)

you going to buy each kit and measure the flow rates for us? :)

Haha wouldn't THAT be nice. I would hope that the vendor could obtain that data from the manufacturer considering its relevance. If not I will make the proper E-mails and phone calls myself if I can obtain the model numbers.

cool. Good luck with it. The flow rates for the greddy and mm upgrade are already known (jeff posted charts a while back)

Green is the stock greddy turbo.

Blue is the GT3071R upgraded turbo with custom trims.

I believe red is what the greddy turbo would do with an upgraded wheel.

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/misc/compress_comparo_20g_18g_3071.jpg

rotorocks (or anyone), why could these goals not be achieved with the Esmeril kit? It's not as all-inclusive as the Mazsport kits, but it still seems like a viable option.

Your requirement: "super fast spool-up time"
It won't happen. They'll tell you it does, but it wont'
That turbo they use is just not cut out for that. Too heavy and unresponsive. You might Like it from at the beginning, but will get used to and think that it is slow, because it feels very lazy until you hit at least 4-5K rpm, and even after that it is far from "super fast spool".
Read this thread entirely (starting with post #45 and on), and you'll see what I am talking about: http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=146281

Kit in itself is nice (manifold, downpipe, battery relocation kit, fuel pump, injectors... But 6K without EMS? Pricey! If you decide to get it, consider throwing out the cheap piece of iron they use for the turbo and replace it with a decent unit right off the bat. (another $1000) However that will instantly put you on the same price range as MazSport, so I don't see what you are winning here. For that much might as well go MazSport from the start.

Also look at the dyno curves?
No one has it down purtier than MM Upgrade.
And you don't have to worry about loosing your traction. You will stay on the road firmly unless you want to go sideways.

Also look at the dyno curves?
No one has it down purtier than MM Upgrade.
And you don't have to worry about loosing your traction. You will stay on the road firmly unless you want to go sideways.

Define "purtier"

The power and torque curve, it is the most aggressive, and yet smooth and predictable of them all. From the very beginning, it makes more than anyone else and just keeps on going.

When you install a $8000+ worth of power upgrades, that last thing you wanna do is downshift into 4th gear while driving 80mph on a freeway to pass a Civic.

The power and torque curve, it is the most aggressive, and yet smooth and predictable of them all. From the very beginning, it makes more than anyone else and just keeps on going.

When you install a $8000+ worth of power upgrades, that last thing you wanna do is downshift into 4th gear while driving 80mph on a freeway to pass a Civic.

What makes a power curve aggressive? Sorry I'm a newbie.

I'm curious as to how the MM turbo behave after 8,000rpm. The only thing I'm worried about is if it takes a tremendous dive like the Mazsport turbo, because I definitely don't stop at 8,000rpm.

I'm curious as to how the MM turbo behave after 8,000rpm. The only thing I'm worried about is if it takes a tremendous dive like the Mazsport turbo, because I definitely don't stop at 8,000rpm.

The motor begins to stop breathing after 8000 RPM. It has nothing to do with the compressor.

The only thing I'm worried about is if it takes a tremendous dive like the Mazsport turbo, because I definitely don't stop at 8,000rpm.

Look at the stock dyno. The engine loses power after 8k. That's just the power curve the engine has. Even if you stuff it with air, you still have the same engine. That's why every turbo kit graphed has similar lines.

I can't speak for the Pettit graph - the chart used in the dyno comparison was taken from a small print out that someone scotch taped to a car window, then someone took a photo of the printout with a camera and posted it online. So for all I know it was hand drawn and pulled out of thin air..

The motor begins to stop breathing after 8000 RPM. It has nothing to do with the compressor.

Sorry :scratchhe :tear: :tear: I don't know what you mean by stop breathing.

Sorry :scratchhe :tear: :tear: I don't know what you mean by stop breathing.

Oh, the die hard supercharger fans :)
Unfortunately, this is beginning to turn into a circus :uhh:

Oh, the die hard supercharger fans :)
Unfortunately, this is beginning to turn into a circus :uhh:

It's an honest question, no need to be forum-ish. I am not a supercharger fan or a turbocharger fan because I don't know enough about either to "decide" which is better.

Hows abouts answering my question? :p /endthreadhijack

i agree with rotorocks that of the turbo dynos, the MM Upgrade is the "purtiest" (still awaiting definition :) ), except for its drop-off in torque (loss of 50 lb*ft) starting around 6,000rpm. Could that be corrected by modifying engine timing or do you think it's inherent to turbo used?

i agree with rotorocks that of the turbo dynos, the MM Upgrade is the "purtiest" (still awaiting definition :) ), except for its drop-off in torque (loss of 50 lb*ft) starting around 6,000rpm. Could that be corrected by modifying engine timing or do you think it's inherent to turbo used?

Watch the drop in torque in the SFR, PTP, Mazsport, and MM turbos. They are all at the same exact angle. Really, the only differences is where the powerband starts, and that just shows you how quickly the TC kicks in.

i agree with rotorocks that of the turbo dynos, the MM Upgrade is the "purtiest" (still awaiting definition :) ), except for its drop-off in torque (loss of 50 lb*ft) starting around 6,000rpm. Could that be corrected by modifying engine timing or do you think it's inherent to turbo used?

It looks to me like they all do that to some extent, except the superchargers, but those never really produce that much extra torque in the first place.

EDIT: Damn, mysql beat me to it.

OK
Think of it this way: Past 8K the demand for air begins to exceed the supply. And the supply is limited by the volume that can be efficiently flown through the ports (in and out) at the given pressure. At some point the motor simply becomes inefficient.

Because more moving parts is less to worry about? Yes it has more moving parts but i was meaning its fiting. Im sure u do make more TQ but now its back to psi and cfm. And like he asked on page 1 hes looking for smooth Hp and Tq. I don't think liquid intercoolers are much better then air to air.. what ever works best for your mods and what ur looking to get out of it is best. Im not pro SC or turbo. what ever is best for what ur looking for..go 4it. Ive owned 2 other tubo cars an luv'd them. Theres always going to be a turbo or sc battle. It does take power to make power with SC, but it seems that sc car run longer with out having to replace or fix the SC then turbo's. An that goes for all FI cars.(just not VW g60)

rotorocks,
i read that whole discussion on the thread you pointed out to me and i must say i was surprised! esmeril did seem reluctant to directly address the issues you pointed out; i hope that chris does and proves his kit to be good.

in the meantime, how do we get around the issue of the slow turbo? do you know if a particular turbo model exists which can reach 300rwhp while being light enough and small enough to maintain lightning spool times? do any of the existing kits use a similar turbo? what about buying an existing kit and upgrading the turbo, as has already happened with Greddy?

regarding the mazsport kit, their dyno seems to have the worst lag of all. i know that the different mount of the type II would use less piping distances and then theoretically have faster spool times. would it be noticeably different on a dyno chart?

also regarding engine response: how does a high-flow cat decrease spool time? what about the FEED 4.77 final gear ratio? they were both mentioned in the thread rotorocks referred to previously (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=146281&page=3) as being detrimental to turbo response.

so many questions! this makes me feel the need to contact a turbo manufacturer to ask his/her opinion about picking a turbo unit and starting from there! it would be oh so much easier if a kit exists that can do this though :) i guess we'll see....

rotorocks,
i read that whole discussion on the thread you pointed out to me and i must say i was surprised! esmeril did seem reluctant to directly address the issues you pointed out; i hope that chris does and proves his kit to be good.

in the meantime, how do we get around the issue of the slow turbo? do you know if a particular turbo model exists which can reach 300rwhp while being light enough and small enough to maintain lightning spool times? do any of the existing kits use a similar turbo? what about buying an existing kit and upgrading the turbo, as has already happened with Greddy?

regarding the mazsport kit, their dyno seems to have the worst lag of all. i know that the different mount of the type II would use less piping distances and then theoretically have faster spool times. would it be noticeably different on a dyno chart?

also regarding engine response: how does a high-flow cat decrease spool time? what about the FEED 4.77 final gear ratio? they were both mentioned in the thread rotorocks referred to previously (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=146281&page=3) as being detrimental to turbo response.

so many questions! this makes me feel the need to contact a turbo manufacturer to ask his/her opinion about picking a turbo unit and starting from there! it would be oh so much easier if a kit exists that can do this though :) i guess we'll see....

Chrises kit is good.
Very clean, and estetically well put together. It just not a fast spooling kit.
If you like driving agressively all the time, keeping your revs at 5K and above, you are gonna get a kick out of it. But if you are in the streets of a city, and want to suddenly switch lanes before the space is closed, don't expect it to give you that well needed push..

My hi flow cat is gone as of yesterday.
I was taking off the dump pipe, to make some anti rattle adjustments, and accidentaly droppd it from about 3 feet hight onto a conctete floor. Ding!!! ...there goes the cat. :(
I hammered the remains out, and now it is just a straigh pipe again.
I saw no notisable increase in spool up time on the turbo I currently have. I hope that sort of answers the question.

To be honest, I never looked at Mazsport dyno until just now, so I guess I effed up on that one :)

FEED 4.77 ect, blah blah... Just like he's pointing to the dyno with "look, no lag" while it realtively clearly shows no indication of full boost produced for almost 700 revs range, or him telling me that 3' longer charge pipe can be the reason... He is really grasping at straws.
That turbo has a heavy wheel and shaft, and is not sized to spool as fast as he claims.

300 WHP is not that difficult to achieve anymore, and there are plenty of turbos that will get you to that mark while giving you an excellent low end.

Take a look at Turbonetics T3/T04E - T04B series turbochargers. They have a few differently trimmed units that can flow plenty of air, and yet give you an excellent spool up.

hey guys new to the forum, and just read threw this entire thread. I just picked up a RX-8 and new to the hole rotory thing. I have been a fan of SC my self more then Turbos but i will be doing alot of rallys and a lil over 300rwhp will be more then enough for me to do those. My question is there any one on here with a SC installed? and how do they like it?

hey guys new to the forum, and just read threw this entire thread. I just picked up a RX-8 and new to the hole rotory thing. I have been a fan of SC my self more then Turbos but i will be doing alot of rallys and a lil over 300rwhp will be more then enough for me to do those. My question is there any one on here with a SC installed? and how do they like it?

Don't do anything if your still "new to the whole rotary thing"

I wasnt going to throw one on tommarow lol. but does any one on here have the SC system.

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=127674


86 pages of design and engineering gone wrong, and end users attempts at fixing it.

all in all not a bad product once you get it all going properly

is it feasible to do something like buying a large quantity of parts from a kit (like Esmeril, for example) and omit the turbocharger itself with the intention of replacing it with a better unit capable of spooling faster? would the internals of the setup still operate properly (besides having to make a new map for the ECU) if the new turbo had similar physical dimensions?

is it feasible to do something like buying a large quantity of parts from a kit (like Esmeril, for example) and omit the turbocharger itself with the intention of replacing it with a better unit capable of spooling faster? would the internals of the setup still operate properly (besides having to make a new map for the ECU) if the new turbo had similar physical dimensions?

From what I hear, correctly sizing turbo is a touchy practice that it's easy to screw up and do damage with. I don't see why it's not possible but I wouldn't do it without some expert help.

I'm looking into an expensive but perhaps perfect solution to the turbo spooling problem but no one should expect any word on it for a while.

I'm looking into an expensive but perhaps perfect solution to the turbo spooling problem but no one should expect any word on it for a while.

Care to elaborate?

Care to elaborate?

:) :) I have two ideas both of which are in different stages of patent so I can't talk about it yet. Ask me in a few months.

Look into the new MM/BHR kit. It isn't even out yet but considering the reputation of both developers it's a safe bet this will be a great turbo kit.

From what I hear, correctly sizing turbo is a touchy practice that it's easy to screw up and do damage with. I don't see why it's not possible but I wouldn't do it without some expert help.

I'm looking into an expensive but perhaps perfect solution to the turbo spooling problem but no one should expect any word on it for a while.

There is no problem with spooling a turbo, as long as it is a correctly sized one.
Properly sized or not with incorrect tune you will pop a motor. And expecting OEM like reliability from an after market turbocharged vehicle is foolish. Want a turbo? Accept the risk, or stay away.

Yeah I did look at the MM/BHR kit and it seems like a wonderful option. I'm curious to see how much its numbers/powerband deviate from the MM upgrade to the Greddy kit. I imagine they will slightly, but I haven't cross-checked the parts to list to see what's different.

One thing did confuse me though: the use of Access Port vs. Interceptor-X. I've searched the threads but don't really understand the fundamental differences between the systems. From what I've gathered (which is probably wrong: please correct me!), the Access Port is a means of remapping/modifying/extracting data/etc. the existing ECU device via a laptop and external software, whereas the Interceptor-X is a complete replacement for the ECU computer with its own control software. Is that correct? I also couldn't find any distinct advantages and disadvantages of either (besides the price). Any feedback would be awesome since it affects engine control for the turbo.

There is no problem with spooling a turbo, as long as it is a correctly sized one.
Properly sized or not with incorrect tune you will pop a motor. And expecting OEM like reliability from an after market turbocharged vehicle is foolish. Want a turbo? Accept the risk, or stay away.

There is a problem with quickly spooling a turbo that delivers high power all the way to redline, that's why we have TT, that's what my little machine seeks to address.

But more on that later.

I can't imagine that MM and CRH have not dynoed their kit yet. I suspect they will release a curve when they release their kit, although I wouldn't mind seeing it earlier.

I can't imagine that MM and CRH have not dynoed their kit yet. I suspect they will release a curve when they release their kit, although I wouldn't mind seeing it earlier.

uhh.... anyone who has a greddy kit + MM's GT3071R upgrade kit has essentially put together the same kit piecemeal.

It works great. Quick spooling, doesn't have random peaky points or random boost spikes like the greddy did for many of us. There's really no issue that I can think of, and it can provide more power than you're going to want to use.

Yeah I did look at the MM/BHR kit and it seems like a wonderful option. I'm curious to see how much its numbers/powerband deviate from the MM upgrade to the Greddy kit. I imagine they will slightly, but I haven't cross-checked the parts to list to see what's different.

One thing did confuse me though: the use of Access Port vs. Interceptor-X. I've searched the threads but don't really understand the fundamental differences between the systems. From what I've gathered (which is probably wrong: please correct me!), the Access Port is a means of remapping/modifying/extracting data/etc. the existing ECU device via a laptop and external software, whereas the Interceptor-X is a complete replacement for the ECU computer with its own control software. Is that correct? I also couldn't find any distinct advantages and disadvantages of either (besides the price). Any feedback would be awesome since it affects engine control for the turbo.

Their dyno has been posted along with all the rest on the dynos thread long time ago, and while we're at it - reposted on your thread. Pay attention! :lol2:

come on now...i know perfectly well that the MM Upgrade to the Greddy Kit dyno has been out for a little while and i have looked at it more than once. i think that this new, complete kit is not simply the MM Greddy Upgrade in different packaging; doesn't it have some new and different parts? as i'd said before: Yeah I did look at the MM/BHR kit and it seems like a wonderful option. I'm curious to see how much its numbers/powerband deviate from the MM upgrade to the Greddy kit. I imagine they will slightly, but I haven't cross-checked the parts to list to see what's different. what i want to know is how this new product will differ from the older dyno i've already seen. pay attention ;)

Manifold is the same, just made with proper flange to fit the Garrett turbo. Turbo is the same. Pipes are the same. Well they added CAI.
The flow characteristics have not changed.

int-x is a piggy back ecu. the ap remaps the current ecu.

Manifold is the same, just made with proper flange to fit the Garrett turbo. Turbo is the same. Pipes are the same. Well they added CAI.
The flow characteristics have not changed.

The problem I have with that and what mysql posted is if thats true than this is nothing more than the same kit with a BHR logo on it. Is it really the same kit? Than why buy this one over the MM upgrade alone?

Doesn't make any sense. Something has to be different. There is a new turbo, likely a better turbo, which will hopefully have a better curve, or theres simply no reason to buy it.

The problem I have with that and what mysql posted is if thats true than this is nothing more than the same kit with a BHR logo on it. Is it really the same kit? Than why buy this one over the MM upgrade alone?

Doesn't make any sense. Something has to be different. There is a new turbo, likely a better turbo, which will hopefully have a better curve, or theres simply no reason to buy it.

Duh... BHR and MM are working together. they are the same peoplez :)

MM upgrade is an upgrade. meaning you have to have a greddy kit to install the upgrade :)

They will likely to continue the MM upgrade for those who already have the Greddy kits, but will sell a full and complete BHR kit to those who are NA and want to go FI.

what's there not to understand?

The problem I have with that and what mysql posted is if thats true than this is nothing more than the same kit with a BHR logo on it. Is it really the same kit? Than why buy this one over the MM upgrade alone?

Doesn't make any sense. Something has to be different. There is a new turbo, likely a better turbo, which will hopefully have a better curve, or theres simply no reason to buy it.

You'd want this kit over the greddy kit + MM turbo upgrade, because if you buy the greddy kit, you end up with two turbos, and the greddy ultimate, which you also wouldn't want. The greddy kit comes with a hot air intake which isn't usable for the accessport too. Add in crappy couplers you have to replace, fuel injectors you also need to buy, and the list goes on.


So long story short:

IF you have the greddy kit, you can get MM's turbo upgrade. It's less than 2k upgrade cost.

If you don't have anything yet, you'd want the BHR turbo kit instead, as it has all the proper "greddy fixes" already done, upgraded couplers, fuel injectors, etc. You get what you need the first time around without paying double for crappy components that you wouldn't be using.

You'd want this kit over the greddy kit + MM turbo upgrade, because if you buy the greddy kit, you end up with two turbos, and the greddy ultimate, which you also wouldn't want. The greddy kit comes with a hot air intake which isn't usable for the accessport too. Add in crappy couplers you have to replace, fuel injectors you also need to buy, and the list goes on.


So long story short:

IF you have the greddy kit, you can get MM's turbo upgrade. It's less than 2k upgrade cost.

If you don't have anything yet, you'd want the BHR turbo kit instead, as it has all the proper "greddy fixes" already done, upgraded couplers, fuel injectors, etc. You get what you need the first time around without paying double for crappy components that you wouldn't be using.

Duh... BHR and MM are working together. they are the same peoplez :)

MM upgrade is an upgrade. meaning you have to have a greddy kit to install the upgrade :)

They will likely to continue the MM upgrade for those who already have the Greddy kits, but will sell a full and complete BHR kit to those who are NA and want to go FI.

what's there not to understand?

Ahh I was under the impression that MM sold both his upgrade and the greddy kit to use with his upgrade. I get it now.

yea MM did offer to sell the GReddy kit together with his upgrade for $5900 before, but injectors were optional and you used whatever ECU you had previously or was included with the GReddy. The new BHR is a complete kit; i just thought it might have slightly different characteristics. i guess we'll see once it's released.

back to thread topic...i'm going to look at some of the turbochargers rotorocks mentioned and see if they present any super-exciting options. if they do, i'll look at some applications.

Ii'm going to look at some of the turbochargers rotorocks mentioned and see if they present any super-exciting options. if they do, i'll look at some applications.

Jeff spent a lot of time researching turbos and their flow characteristics, before selecting the turbo in his kit. You're not going to do some internet searches and come up with something that will magically work better by pure luck.

Jeff spent a lot of time researching turbos and their flow characteristics, before selecting the turbo in his kit. You're not going to do some internet searches and come up with something that will magically work better by pure luck.

I'm sure he did, because he's clearly put together a very successful product with performance results that I would very happily add to my car. I do, however, have somewhat different goals and am still considering developing my own kit to suit them. As such, I'm going to look at turbos to meet my own conditions, not to attempt to improve Jeff's high-quality product.

Jeff spent a lot of time researching turbos and their flow characteristics, before selecting the turbo in his kit. You're not going to do some internet searches and come up with something that will magically work better by pure luck.

Well you should keep in mind that Jeff was looking for the best turbo for the particular application - given the space limitations and what not. But that turbo is pretty sweet. :mdrmed:

Well you should keep in mind that Jeff was looking for the best turbo for the particular application - given the space limitations and what not. But that turbo is pretty sweet. :mdrmed:

heh. It's true this is as big a turbo that can fit by the manifold, however if you think about it from a power output point of view, anyone who has no goals to exceed 400 whp isn't likely to find a faster spooling turbo. I haven't seen anyone hitting 400 on pump gas, and don't expect to see it for quite some time, if at all. So I don't see how a larger turbo would do anything besides increase spool time.

but i'll be looking at smaller turbos and targeting 300-310whp with no intention of going higher, so increasing spool time should be viable. although MM's number on the dyno from the previous post is 316whp, i was under the impression that it was in the mid areas of its boost capacity and that it was designed to potentially go higher. i don't really want to go higher, so i'd keep the top end at 310 instead of the mid end.

i am new to the details of forced induction: i understand how it works, what each component does, how they work together, etc., but i'm still learning about characteristics of turbochargers, estimating boost to achieve certain whp, assessing turbo characteristics to match with exhaust flow rates....the small but critical details needed to pick a great turbo and build a great kit. as such, i have a question: is what i said in the previous paragraph viable as far as using a smaller turbo than in MM's GREddy upgrade to still achieve 300-310whp?

please correct any statements i've made if they're totally wrong

greddy turbo is quite a bit smaller, and can only realistically go to 280-290 whp, and it doesn't spool any faster than MM's. Part of that is due to the greddy being journal bearing.