renesis removal/rebuild [Archive]

RotaryResurrection

05-16-2008, 03:16 PM

rear rotor housing off.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4241.JPG

Not bad looking once I wipe it off a bit. Mild wear, light chome flaking on the rearmost edge of the housing. This area is where the short triangle assist piece of the apex seal rides, and due to it's sharp tip, it digs out a groove on that rear edge and causes the chrome coating to flake off over time. All used rotary engine rotor housings with more than 30-40k miles will have some wear/flaking here.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4242.JPG

Damn, those are some deep ass cracks at the plug hole orifices. These cracks are normally only seen on 3rd gen rx-7 13b-rew TT engines due to the heat created by them.

However on the renesis engines I have torn down I have begun seeing the same cracking as well, indicating these engines have localized cooling issues. This supports the findings of other renesis builders who have developed special waterpumps to try and combat the issue.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4243.JPG

Intake/compression area of the housing, looks good, no chatter, light wear.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4244.JPG

More shots of rear edge chrome flaking. This is VERY mild wear, and is reuseable. But, every builder has their own opinions, and some builders flatly refuse to reuse housings that have any wear whatsoever. I am not one of them. I would love to build new parts engines all day long, but with the cost of parts being what they are ($1200 for 2 rotor housings alone) I will not force the customer to pay for something they cannot afford.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4245.JPG

RotaryResurrection

05-16-2008, 03:18 PM

Man, that's some killer wear on those stationary gear bearings. What oil have you been using?

Not my engine. Customer's engine. I am a rotary rebuilder, google the username. I assumed that much would be clear, but I suppose not since I am not a heavy poster on this forum.

Please try to wait for me to finish all the posting until you make comments or ask questions. It will make the thread more organized for later reading.

RotaryResurrection

05-16-2008, 03:24 PM

okay, so where were we.

Ah, intermediate iron. You can still see some coolant residue on the face.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4246.JPG

Intermediate iron off...front face.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4247.JPG

Shaft resting in place after pulling the INT iron off. It's a tricky job with the engine mounted on the stand facing up.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4248.JPG

Won't be needing that eccentric shaft any more...

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4250.JPG

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4251.JPG

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4252.JPG

Front rotor/housing...

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4253.JPG

Front rotor out. That's a lot of carbon there...

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4254.JPG

Front rotor housing off.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4255.JPG

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF42.JPG

RotaryResurrection

05-16-2008, 03:27 PM

Front rotor housing is in about the same shape...

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4256.JPG

Blurry pic, but the same cracks are on this housing too.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4257.JPG

And then you are left with the front iron still mounted on the stand.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4258.JPG

Both main bearings were chewed due to oil starvation.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4259.JPG

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4260.JPG

RotaryResurrection

05-16-2008, 03:33 PM

On the rotor housing where the cracks are at the plug holes, you see a thick stripe of carbon buildup on the housing. The reason for this is that the cracks expand under heat, and push out into the combustion chamber. Since the apex seals ride over this, that means they get pushed up off of the housing for a split second in that one spot, over and over. Since the cracks are only in the center of the housing, the rest of the housing in that spot remains flat, and blowby occurs there while the seal is lifted off of the housing.

This is further detrimental in that the apex seal is constantly riding over a "bump" on the housing, and so the center of the seal is going to wear more due to this. So, even when the seal is over on another part of the housing that is flat, the "bump" has worn a bit of material out of the center of the seal, and so blowby can still occur everywhere. This means a loss of compression and power.

There are only a couple of things you can do about this. 1) replace both rotor housings with new ones or used ones with less wear, at a significant cost, anywhere from a few hundred for a used set to over a grand for a new set. 2) grind down the cracks lightly so that they will not expand when the housing is put back into use, and the seal will not skip over them. Compression will not be lost elsewhere on the housing, and compression loss due to blowby at the plug hole itself will be minimized.

RotaryResurrection

05-16-2008, 03:43 PM

So, here are the cleaned rotor housings, ready to be put back into service. I have doctored the cracks as best I could. I would obviously have preferred to use new housings, but with a bill in the mid 2500 range (installed w/warranty) already, the customer did not see fit to replace them for another $11-1200.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4263.JPG

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4264.JPG

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4265.JPG

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4266.JPG

Also, cleaned and painted irons. Irons should almost always be reuseable in the renesis. They do wear slightly on the faces at the 3 and 9 oclock positions, but this is always negligible and will not significantly affect how the engine runs. And since there are no longer any coolant seal grooves/walls to crack and break on the renesis like the old rotaries had, that will not be a point of failure either. The only way irons will not be reuseable on the renesis is if 1) you break apex seals and the fragments damage the irons, or 2) you run out of oil and continue to drive the engine in such a way to scorch and crack the iron faces.

I am disturbed by the way mazda cast the irons to prevent any significant porting or reshaping whatsoever. I know others have already posted about this on the forum so I will not comment further, other than to say that these engines are basically going to be what they were in stock form, there is not much at this time that can be done to improve them for a stock or mildly modded street car, without making significant compromises.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4267.JPG

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4268.JPG

RotaryResurrection

05-16-2008, 03:51 PM

Here are all the small misc parts and hardware for the shortblock, now cleaned and inspected and ready for reuse. Note the new main bearings in the stat gears. I also use new front and rear main seals, rear stat gear o-ring, and the aftermarket solid thermal pellet replacement piece that eliminates the oil thermostat in the front of the e-shaft.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4270.JPG

Here are all the seals and springs laid out. Some are being reused, some are new. Side seals are labeled with their individual "letters". In previous rotaries, side seals were cut extra long by mazda, and hand ground to proper fit/length/clearance one by one by the builder. With the renesis, the rotors have a stamp by each of the side seal slots with a letter. This letter matches the side seal that is to be used in that slot, and you order the seals by letter instead of getting universal ones and cutting them to fit.

One thing I dislike about the renesis, mazda runs a VERY loose side seal clearance, 2-3 times what was acceptable in the previous versions. This causes blowby, carbon buildup on the sides of the rotors, and a bit of compression loss. I am pondering on trying a couple of things to run less sideseal clearance and perhaps improving efficiency. To do this I will use the "extra long" renesis side seals that are available by special order, and hand fit them as per previous versions.

I am using aftermarket viton oil o-rings instead of oem mazda, just like in all my other builds. These should hold their form longer than the stock ones, to prevent excess smoking later in life.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4269.JPG

RotaryResurrection

05-16-2008, 03:57 PM

Cleaned rotors. I use walnut shell to blast the carbon off mine, without harming the coated faces of the rotors and without making a mess all over me and the rest of the garage. You can now see the small bevels cut on the sides of the rotors to help exhaust gases escape.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4271.JPG

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4272.JPG

Rotors with seals and springs installed, plus a used replacement e-shaft.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4274.JPG

RotaryResurrection

05-16-2008, 03:58 PM

enough for now, will get to assembly later. :)

nycgps

05-16-2008, 04:14 PM

AHHHHH ! NICE FREAKING PICTURES !!!!

The wear is all the way down to copper, the e-shaft is no longer reusable, bad.

In your opinion, does this have something to do with the 5w20 that Mazda/Ford *recommends* ?

shaunv74

05-16-2008, 04:30 PM

Excellent stuff! Expo1 had the same bearing wear as well. One more data point that points to an oiling problem with the bearings either too thin or not enough being injected into the bearing area.:(

BMonkey

05-16-2008, 04:45 PM

Edit: removed due to excessive stupidity.

RotaryResurrection

05-16-2008, 06:02 PM

center housing...bearings? :scratchhe

BMonkey

05-16-2008, 07:03 PM

center housing...bearings? :scratchhe

Don't mind me, I'm just the local idiot :confused: Sorry bout that.
I was at work and trying to talk to my boss and respond at the same time.

This might be alittle more relavent now that I'm home and paying attention...
How much information do you have about this customer's mods, driving habits, milage, etc?

RotaryResurrection

05-16-2008, 07:13 PM

Moderate amount of info.

Bought with 8k, had 81k when brought to me. He is a young guy so I would assume he drives it hard. I had rebuilt his 93 rx7 a few years ago but he sold it to buy an 8, something newer with fewer electrical issues and rattling interior plastic. I knew for a fact that he beat on his rx7 so I assume he beat on this as well.

BMonkey

05-16-2008, 08:36 PM

olddragger

05-16-2008, 10:49 PM

Jesus that is a LOT of bearing wear. Why are we getting so much front bearing wear on this engine---i have seen several.?
Those heat cracks around the lead plugs--why is that happening?
oil weep holes need to be larger?
olddragger

RotaryResurrection

05-16-2008, 11:34 PM

Even if the oil injection holes were larger, it would not matter, because the OMP and PCM control the oil injection amount being fed to those holes. The volume of oil is very small...flow through the orifice is not the issue, flow supplied to them is.

The reason they want to make the hole as small as possible is so that there is very little compression loss or blowby. The same reason the trailing plughole is smaller than the leading, to minimize compression loss as the seal sweeps over the hole.

nycgps

05-16-2008, 11:57 PM

Im gonna quote myself

AHHHHH ! NICE FREAKING PICTURES !!!!

The wear is all the way down to copper, the e-shaft is no longer reusable, bad.

In your opinion, does this have something to do with the 5w20 that Mazda/Ford *recommends* ?

Oh also, do you know what kind of oil he has been using?

Any opinion RR ? :)

Mazurfer

05-17-2008, 12:12 AM

Yes, please ask what specific oil weight has he been using if you don't know?

RotaryResurrection

05-17-2008, 12:30 AM

All I can say is that I have always, and will always use at least 10-40 or 20-50 in all my rotaries, and have never had issues on engines making as much as 450rwhp. Other armchair engineers may debate back and forth about the merits of the thin versus thick oil, but this is what I have found to work for me and it is what I recommend. I'm not saying I know more than mazda or engineers about the situation, but I would suggest that they had a side motivation to recommend such an inadequate grade of oil for anyone except those in very cold climates...such as emisions or efficiency concerns.

If I get an opportunity to speak to the guy again I will inquire about his oil habits, but he has already paid and taken the car back home 4-5 hours away so I doubt I will talk to him again.

GAMBEAN

05-17-2008, 01:04 AM

+1

nice write up. KL

alz0rz

05-17-2008, 01:18 AM

amazing pictures and documentation.. alot to be learned.

RotaryResurrection

05-17-2008, 02:40 AM

Okay, back to the action.

Front iron mounted on engine stand.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4275.JPG

Stat gears with pretty new main bearings...

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4277.JPG

Rotor housing w/coolant seals and dowelpin orings installed...

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4276.JPG

Drop it on...

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4278.JPG

Drop the rotor in, install apex springs.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4279.JPG

install coolant seals, lube bearings, drop in e-shaft...

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4280.JPG

drop on intermediate iron...

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4282.JPG

Install coolant seals and dowelpin orings on rear rotorhousing...

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4283.JPG

Lube rear rotor bearing and drop rotor in, install apex springs...

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4284.JPG

Install coolant seals on rear rotorhousing...

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4285.JPG

Install rear main seal into stat gear, rear stat gear o-ring and rear stat gear into iron...

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4286.JPG

Lube rear main bearing...

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4287.JPG

Drop it on, install and torque tension bolts in sequence.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4288.JPG

Flip it over, start on front stack. Thrust plate, thrust washers, spacer installed.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4289.JPG

Oilpump, counterweight, OMP drivegear, thermal pellet replacement, etc. installed.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4290.JPG

install front main seal in front cover, install front cover gasket and front cover, pulley hub, loctite and torque front hub bolt. Shortblock is now complete. Note my proprietary, baller-status black and gunmetal metallic paint scheme. :D

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4291.JPG

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4292.JPG

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4293.JPG

Flip it over, clean bottom mating surfaces one last time, install oil pickup.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4294.JPG

Completely assembled longblock, ready to drop back in and fire up. I had this bad boy in and running approximately 2.5 hours after I took this picture.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/builds/lynskey/DSCF4295.JPG

alz0rz

05-17-2008, 02:45 AM

oyy pure sex, amazing job.. you do all this at home?

RotaryResurrection

05-17-2008, 02:55 AM

Yes, I have worked from home building rotaries full time since 2001.

MazdaManiac

05-17-2008, 03:49 AM

Quality thread!

Would there have been (in your opinion) any merit in having those irons surfaced before reassembly?

RotaryResurrection

05-17-2008, 04:06 AM

None, in my opinion. But, I have never been a builder that favors lapping/surfacing of irons.

We all know of the factory hardness treatment that the iron faces receive. It keeps the irons from wearing prematurely from the side and corner seals, rotor oil seals, and in the case of the renny, the cutoff rings. It is only a few thousandths deep into the surface. Almost any lapping will remove most or all of this hardness.

I dont know how other builders run their operations, I know some of the larger operations lap housings on a semi regular basis. Maybe they are just grinding them flat, maybe they are retreating the housings for hardness after the process. I would say that the latter is the only "right" way to do it, but if it works for them, fine.

I have taken apart a few "recent rebuilds" of rotaries that were built by other shops, with documentation that they were built by them, and lapped. On these engines the customer complains of compression loss and severe smoke and oil consumption, a few thousand miles after the build.

When I tear them down (this has happened several times) I see extreme wear into the iron face...we're talking more than 1/8 of an inch. It looks like a brake rotor that someone let a bare pad backing run against. This in turn chews up the rotor side seals and costs a ton of compression, and causes smoke and oil consumption.

The ONLY time I see this is on recent rebuilds from certain shops. I can only assume that the lapping is the cause of the extreme wear, as I have NEVER seen anything remotely similar on any of the other 400+ cores I have torn down since 2001.

As far as the wear on the iron housings, it is always negligible at worst. We're talking 3-4 thousandths of step wear at 3 and 9 oclock on the face, in about a 2 inch area. There is normally no wear anywhere else on the housing, including the oil seal track. Because of this, I consider the wear to be moot, since compression and oil control will not be significantly sacrificed even when using 100k+ mile irons.

In my mind, I do not like the idea of spending 3-500 dollars (including shipping) for a service that may significantly decrease the life of my rebuild, when I know for a fact that I can save that 3-500 dollars, run the parts I have as-is, and be guaranteed a good running engine with minimal compromise to quality. There are several professional, individual, and armchair builders who agree with my view, and then there are those who would rather lap every iron in every engine they build. IF they can make it work, then good for them. I see no need to take the risk and spend the money.

The rotor housing chrome surface is a MUCH more important area to focus your attention and concerns, IMO. It is almost entirely responsible for the startup, and final compression that the engine will generate.

FWIW, the irons in this build had less than 1.5 thousandths of wear anywhere on the face. They were almost perfect.

MazdaManiac

05-17-2008, 04:17 AM

Good to hear.
There is a reason everything that rides on those irons has springs.

What spec are you shooting for on the side seal clearance?

RotaryResurrection

05-17-2008, 04:22 AM

I would like to run 4-6 thousandths instead of the 12-16 that mazda seems to want to run, using the seals in the standard manner.

paulmasoner

05-17-2008, 04:42 AM

+1 on excellent thread and documentation.

i am from NE tennessee. bout 2 hours from you, i will be home for a month in august en route to honduras. i'll have to swing by and say hello/talk shop(meaning, i hope i learn something from you :))

Shrapnel

05-17-2008, 06:46 AM

That's the best set of pics I've ever seen - thanks heaps for your efforts. How many miles would you expect the owner to get out of that particular rebuild?

TS

RotaryResurrection

05-17-2008, 02:31 PM

IT's hard to say. Most of my builds leave and are not heard from again, so I have no real way to track their progress. The rx-7s tend to change hands fairly rapidly, every couple of years in some cases, so there is no way to know for sure. My best guess would be somewhere in the 50-100% of the original mileage range depending on how it is cared for and driven. Obviously, if an all-new-parts engine straight from the factory lasted X number of miles, then an engine with mostly used and some new parts is *probably* not going to equal the original mileage, unless there was some unusual or catastrophic failure of the original at low mileage.

There are also other factors that will make a rebuild less likely to last as long as the original. Here is an excerpt from my DIY rotary rebuild CD/writeup. Parts of it were written with older rx-7s in mind as you can tell, but you still get the idea.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I developed my build method my examining real world failures of running engines. Ever hear of someone have a legitimate blown engine from a "worn side seal"? What about "yeah, my engine stopped running because my rotorhousings had too much chrome flaking on them"? Or "yeah man, I was driving along and the car died, and my mechanic took it apart and told me I had too much step wear on the side of my iron housings"? Not likely.

Bottom line, exceptional circumstances aside, 3 things go wrong with 95% of all rotary failures: worn or broken apex seals, worn oil control rings, or leaking coolant seals. The other seals and springs wear little to none. You replace those main wear items and reuse the other stuff after close evaluation and you will have a good engine that'll last indefinitely.

As long as the original? Almost certainly not. As long as most people need it to? Almost certainly...these cars are rarely daily driven, and 5-10k/year is the average mileage. So what if you only get 50k out of the rebuild...it's still 4 or 5 solid years! So if the basic $1000-1500 rebuild gets you 50k, and you haven't sold/wrecked the car by the time you need another, you can always go for another basic build, probably get another 60k or more out of it, and STILL be under the cost of ONE "new part" rebuild. You can also do one budget build and apply the savings into mods and make far more power than you otherwise would with the "new parts" engine.

Let's look at the "will it last as long as the original" side of things. When a car is new, people pay a lot for it, they have high financing and insurance to pay. Even though the car was under warranty from the dealer, obtaining proper service could be a pain, so they would rather not tear it up. SO they treat that baby right for 3 or 4 years. Nobody modded these cars when they were new either. This means that all original engines had an easy first few years/50-100k miles, so it's not fair to ask a rebuild to compete with that. In this day and time, most all the owners are younger guys that raise hell and modify their cars. Even if a rebuild is done as good as the original, there's no way it'll last as long as the original did. Add to that that almost all rebuilds have some used part content, and of course it won't be quite as good as new.

Kane

05-17-2008, 03:03 PM

Fantasic write-up!

Weird side question - about how much would it take to build a show/race renisis as a backup for when if mine fails?

Powdercoated housings, anodized pulleys; good high end stuff. When mine goes; I'll likely be due to an apex seal - so I might as well have a baller longblock ready to go in; and just hand off my original Renny as a core.

RotaryResurrection

05-17-2008, 04:03 PM

Well, I dont know about other rebuilders, but I don't sell any outright, or have any pre-built. I do buy cores as they present themselves, but I don't have enough spare stuff to put together a whole engine most of the time. And even if I did, the whole "core exchange" thing never worked out well for me when I tried it. I either got back boat anchors as cores, or had trouble getting people to return them at all. This placed an extra burden on me to continually hunt down more useable core parts, and I had to adjust pricing to cover the junk parts that were coming back in. I was sending out blocks with 10 major reuseable parts, and getting back cores with 4-6 reuseable parts, and those parts aren't free. But, I can't charge the customer for the parts until I see inside the core, but by that time it was already too late anyway.

Instead I decided to do everything based on the customer's exact core instead of doing any exchanging. This leads to longer turnaround but a fairer and easier overall procedure. You have a good core? Your price stays low, and you get to keep all your original parts. You have a boat anchor core? You are held responsible for it's condition with the price of replacement parts. If something comes off of my shelf, it gets paid for right then, no guesswork about what core parts are going to come in on exchange, and no need to raise prices to average in for some people's junk cores.

What would need to happen, for me at least, is for you to obtain your own core and send it to me. IF you want some mods done to the longblock stuff, then you'd need to buy and send in all that stuff too, if the engine you bought doesn't come as one. With exception to internals, any parts you want installed (pulleys, water pump, thermostat, etc.) would need to be purchased by you and sent in for me to assemble.

If you want powdercoating I do offer that service, but not ceramic coating or anodizing, polishing or anything along those lines.

So assuming you sent me a longblock, and I am to tear it down, rebuild it, and reassemble all the longblock accessories again for you, you'd be in the $1500 range if everything in the core were reuseable and it just needed seals/springs. IF the core were like this one and needed bearings, etc. then the price could go up a few hundred.

Powdercoating prices depend on what is getting done. ONly bare metal parts can be coated. The UIM for instance cannot be powdercoated. IF you want something complex like a lower intake manifold, or an alternator coated, they have to be completely disassembled and all the electrical and moving internal parts left out, and the case gets coated. It's really all this disassembly/prep/reassembly that costs when doing powdercoating, the actual act of blasting and coating the parts is not bad at all. To do a few pullies, an alternator case, etc. is 50-100 bucks, if I am doing a whole motor's worth of brackets and manifolds, cost goes up around $250-400 depending on how much stuff. There is not that much on a renesis that can be done, really. Lower intake, alternator, a few brackets, pullies, that's about it, the rest is plastic. I guess you could do the front cover/waterpump housing too.

I have done a set of rotor housings in powdercoat before and they looked awesome when they were done. But after they ran in an engine for several months and hundreds of heat cycles, they looked worse. Aluminum tends to outgas a lot. During the coating process I try to preheat large aluminum parts for at least half an hour to outgas as much as possible before applying the coating and curing. This works well for manifolds and stuff that don't get too hot. BUt the rotorhousings appear to have outgassed after the engine was built, causing lots of small bubbles under the coating. Painted housings don't do this, so I am guessing that the paint allows the outgassing to "breathe" without disturbing the paint too much, so it looks better for longer.

Bottom line, I can powdercoat rotor housings, but I would not really go around recommending it to people based on what I've seen. Front covers and iron housings seem to do fine...the iron doesnt outgas much, and the aluminum front cover doesn't see as much sustained heat as the rotorhousings.

Just for shits and giggles, here are some pics of powdercoated parts I have done.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/klinternetfiles/PCwork/DSCF3345.JPG

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/klinternetfiles/PCwork/DSCF3344.JPG

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/klinternetfiles/PCwork/DSCF3526.JPG

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/klinternetfiles/PCwork/DSCF2855.JPG

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/klinternetfiles/PCwork/DSCF2828.JPG

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/klinternetfiles/PCwork/DSCF2749.JPG

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/klinternetfiles/PCwork/DSCF2025.JPG

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/klinternetfiles/PCwork/DSCF2040.JPG

My engine bay in my FC, though I have since redone my alternator in black and red:

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/klinternetfiles/PCwork/DSCF3270.JPG

Kane

05-17-2008, 04:11 PM

Interesting; thanks for the info - seems like it still might be worth it when I get back to the States.

Shipping from HI to CONUS is just too much $$$ to make it worth it; but I would love to get a nice fully dressed show ready engine to go into my car when/if my current one goes or I just want to swap them and rebuild my current Renny.

Too bad about powdercoating the housings; that would look cool. I guess just some good high temp paint would be the way to go.

RotaryResurrection

05-17-2008, 04:13 PM

refresh your page to see pics of powdercoated housings...

MazdaJeff

05-17-2008, 04:32 PM

That was awesome!

Thanks.

Shrapnel

05-18-2008, 12:33 AM

In your picture titled...

"Intake/compression area of the housing, looks good, no chatter, light wear."

I can see marks on the surface that do look a bit like the chatter marks I have seen in books on the rotary engine's development. You can clearly see what appear to be ripples on the surface of the metal. Are these the beginning of chatter marks (a problem I thought had been totally eliminated), or something else?

Cheers
TS

RotaryResurrection

05-18-2008, 01:45 AM

Maybe I should have said "no significant chatter". All rotor housings will have a very minor amount of chatter as shown there. It is insignificant, though. The chatter talked about as "the devil's teeth" in books and documents about early rotary development challenges, are much more severe, and look like you took a grinding wheel to the housing in 1/4 inch increments.

rotalution

05-19-2008, 12:23 AM

thanks for those excellent pictures

Looking at the coolant seals, its failure got to do with localize cooling problem ?

rx8convert22

05-19-2008, 06:52 PM

These types of posts are starting to scare me more and more. My engine only has 14000 on it now so I feel I still have some hope. I am going to move to 10W-40 oil and go to 3000 mile changes rather than 5000 like I was doing.

Also I am hoping the updated 2009 water pump fits our cars if not I am going to buy the aftermarket one I have seen others using.

XRX8X

05-19-2008, 07:24 PM

great work from someone who truly enjoys the product made overseas.i am very pleased to know that you took the time to answer questions i did not need to ask.
again great work and hats off to you!thank you.(i'm still learning about my rx8 after four years of ownership)

ASH8

05-19-2008, 07:30 PM

nycgps

05-19-2008, 07:36 PM

These types of posts are starting to scare me more and more. My engine only has 14000 on it now so I feel I still have some hope. I am going to move to 10W-40 oil and go to 3000 mile changes rather than 5000 like I was doing.

I've been using w30 oil since 5K miles. I never believe in 5w20 bs. you still have hope.

Also I am hoping the updated 2009 water pump fits our cars if not I am going to buy the aftermarket one I have seen others using.

trust me, REmedy water pump is the best water pump u can find.

olddragger

05-19-2008, 11:01 PM

ok RR --looking good. I run a pettit s.c build and it is sorted out pretty good. I still have a core engine--blown #1 that took out the housing AND rotor(deep gouge all the way to the seals edge)--blew a corner and then apex of course. My "good" housing from number #2 has the usual things present, lead sparkplug cracks, some chatter marks and the two mysterious grooves above the trailing sp hole.
Big mystery to me is on one rotor the leading exhaust port edge is 42 cm from the trailing edge of the intake port and on the other housing it is 44. I have a 6 port engine by the way. Ok whats up with that?:)
?s--is there any work on the exhaust sleeves---any exhaust sleeve insert available? Can you close the gap between the edge of that exhaust sleeve and the housing? Can you get the exhaust port coated and the gap in the lead plug area coated and put a better bevel on it? Or am I chasing fleas?
On tear down my exhaust ports were occluded approx 10% on my 50K engine.
Good write up and pics--appreciate it---i am in ga.
olddragger

RotaryResurrection

05-22-2008, 02:14 AM

Big mystery to me is on one rotor the leading exhaust port edge is 42 cm from the trailing edge of the intake port and on the other housing it is 44. I have a 6 port engine by the way. Ok whats up with that?:)

Believe it or not, mazda's port castings have never been symmetrically laid out when you really look close. I never noticed this until I began porting engines on the regular. Differences of 1-2mm in runner diameter, port bowl shape and placement are not uncommon on the same part/casting. You'd also be surprised at some of the rough protrusions I have seen left in stock castings. Sometimes I have to spend an hour extra to clean up a rough set of castings.

?s--is there any work on the exhaust sleeves---any exhaust sleeve insert available? Can you close the gap between the edge of that exhaust sleeve and the housing?

I am not aware of anything being made by the aftermarket. There is not too much of a gap there, about 2mm or so, which is the same they have carried in previous exhaust port setups. With the angle that the air is coming in at on the renesis, I don't think it is much of an issue to worry about personally, but there are those who are always looking to try new things so I could be shown wrong at some point.

Can you get the exhaust port coated and the gap in the lead plug area coated and put a better bevel on it? Or am I chasing fleas?
On tear down my exhaust ports were occluded approx 10% on my 50K engine.
Good write up and pics--appreciate it---i am in ga.
olddragger

You could definitely coat the sleeves, but since they are already isolated from the iron housings pretty well I don't see what the point would be. I dont think there would be a way to coat JUST the bowl of the exhaust port while leaving the rest of the iron untouched, but I am not that familiar with the coating processes so I could be wrong again.

You could bevel the plug holes more as they meet the chrome surface, but you would lose a bit more compression as a result. That is the reason that the trailing plughole has a smaller orifice on the chrome surface, to minimize compression loss/blow-around as the seal sweeps over it. The same would go for enlarging the leading plughole orifice, to a lesser extent. I have never heard of anyone doing this, but if these setups continue to reveal a major problem with cracking it may be something I might try to make a part of my builds to relieve stress there. I think that would be more along the lines of putting a band aid on a bullet wound though, I'd rather find a way to prevent the heat that is leading to the cracking.

Some builders sell a "coolant port modification" that supposedly helps bring down localized hot spot temps. I know how to do it, but it seems fairly time consuming for a minimal gain. Perhaps that is something I might give a shot as well once I get to building renesis' on the regular. Right now I have only torn down a few cores and can't make solid generalizations yet. What I know from previous generations of rotary, comes from tearing down 3-400 cores, so I know exactly what is and is not common. It will take a while to get to that point on the renny.

Go48

05-22-2008, 07:50 AM

WOW! Thanks for the the time and effort it took to put this thread together. This is definitely sticky material that will help forum for years to come.

Jedi54

05-22-2008, 04:41 PM

wow RR, you really did one hell of a job on this thread!! Great pictures, great analysis.

I recently switched to 5w-30 in preperation for summer, might need to consider future changes.

Sleepy-z

05-22-2008, 06:07 PM

Good write up, nice to see someone on the outside doing it.

RotaryResurrection

05-22-2008, 06:20 PM

on the...outside? :scratchhe

You in the state pen or something?

GAMBEAN

05-22-2008, 06:25 PM

on the...outside? :scratchhe

You in the state pen or something?

lol thats great!

Go48

05-22-2008, 06:33 PM

on the...outside? :scratchhe

You in the state pen or something?
He is employed as an engine builder at the new Mazda rotary engine reman plant near Richmond, VA.

RotaryResurrection

05-22-2008, 06:47 PM

That's awesome...maybe he can help clean up the shitty rep that mazda's reman program has generated for itself over the last 7-8 years or so going back to the california plant closure.

Go48

05-22-2008, 06:58 PM

I suspect that's the idea in this case with Mazda taking control of the reman process from an apparent contractor operation.

BTW, check out his recent initial posting:
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=145558

nucleus

06-01-2008, 12:31 AM

Wow, when I look at those pictures it looks to me like this engine may have been run low on oil. I would encourage you guys who want your engine to last to put synthetic premix into your gas, you can get it from the rotary engine section at your local Walmart. Clearly they can't program enough oil injection to keep these engines gong a long time. The premix being atomized with the fuel will distribute itself inside the engine much better than the oil injection anyway.

Nucleus

StealthTL

06-01-2008, 12:35 AM

Yeah!

^^^^What he said!

Rotary.

Premix good!

Mix.....Synthetic......ME LIKE!

Echo?

S

nycgps

06-01-2008, 12:42 AM

the wear u're seeing has something to do with thin oil. not premix.

but premix does help tho. other areas that is

yeaaa premix baby !

TeamRX8

06-01-2008, 02:43 AM

don't fill up without it

https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atp.aspx

ASH8

06-01-2008, 06:48 AM

Agree, the Amsoil Saber Pro is the only and best Pre-Mix to use.

Just not in the ratio's they suggest for a 2 stroke engine ..BUT.

olddragger

06-01-2008, 10:20 AM

paulmasoner

06-01-2008, 05:06 PM

well i tink mazda figured something out finally when the added the extra oil jets

shaunv74

06-01-2008, 05:29 PM

Do yall think it makes a difference WHERE the oil comes into the engine at. The actual physical location---at tdc, on the intake, before the trailing? Think about it---Pre mix doesn't stay in the engine long unless you mix in a concentration that is large enough. So unless that is done--we need a better lube source.
olddragger

I do think it does make a difference where longitudinally and port frequency. More ports across the housing should allow for more complete coverage while using less oil. I think if pre-mix as a brute force method due to inadequate lubrication because there aren't enough ports or they are poorly located.

As stated above the additional port in the '09 seems to be consistent with this theory.

RotoRocket

06-17-2008, 11:58 PM

1st, thanks for taking the time to post this thread and attach those amazing pics.

2nd, this is depressing a little bit.

3rd, it looks the great oil weight controversy continues, unabated.

CnnmnSchnpps

06-30-2008, 10:47 AM

great thread, thanks for sharing your experience...

one thing i've always wondered - when you put a rotor into the housing, how do you keep the seals on the underside of the rotor (side, cutoff, that corner bit of the apex, etc) from falling out?

shaunv74

06-30-2008, 12:26 PM

I think they hold them in with a light adhesive that will burn up quickly like a grease or something.

CnnmnSchnpps

06-30-2008, 02:11 PM

gotcha, thanks

Kane

06-30-2008, 02:24 PM

I believe the key is Vasoline.....

RotaryResurrection

06-30-2008, 02:55 PM

I usually build my rotors 'dry", without coating everything with a slop load of vaseline etc. like some builders. Not that it would be detrimental, it just seems messy and wasteful to me.

The seals usually just kind of sit there unless you are moving the rotor around quickly or shaking it. Before I had ever built an engine, I wondered the same thing...but once you handle the parts, you will realize it is not really an issue. Sometimes you find a particular seal that wants to fall out of it's slot, and in this case yes I do use a small amount of vaseline to help hold it in place until the engine is assembled. This happens on maybe 1 out of 20 engines, though.

CnnmnSchnpps

06-30-2008, 02:58 PM

ah, the many applications of vaseline..

shaunv74

06-30-2008, 03:18 PM

It's the wonder Jelly!!:lol:

Vasichko

07-09-2008, 12:58 PM

So the pellet for the e-shaft, is this a mod worth doing?

What benefits will it bring?

RotaryResurrection

07-09-2008, 01:24 PM

So the pellet for the e-shaft, is this a mod worth doing?

What benefits will it bring?

It's a reliability mod, it eliminates the oil thermostat in the front shaft. They rarely fail, but if it were, poor oiling to the internals could result. It's purpose is to accelerate oil temperature increase on a cold engine to promote better cold emissions. IT's a 10 dollar part that should be replaced while the engine is apart.

Sleepy-z

07-10-2008, 05:33 AM

Thats pretty interesting about the pellet, never knew about that. BTW the 09 rx8 is doing away with the MOP(metering oil pump) below the thermostat housing, it has a new electronic way of handling it, supposedly they solved the cold start issue.

nycgps

07-10-2008, 05:59 AM

Atilla

08-27-2008, 10:21 AM

I know this thread has been dead for a month or so - but i felt like it was damn good read...Props to the OP.

quazmosis

08-27-2008, 11:29 AM

Subscribed. - Nice write up.

smitht0789

09-30-2008, 12:11 AM

awesome pics!!!

olddragger

09-30-2008, 10:23 PM

to put in an 09 in
you would just need the ecu and the wiring harness.
olddragger

PTY RX-8

10-14-2008, 07:36 PM

Excellent Pics and Rotary lesson 101. I am new at this Rotary Family, and loving it every second. I am from Panama, and here there are at most, 10 RX-8. I bought one from a young fella, he had the car sitting in a Whouse for almost 2 yrs, I bouhgt it real cheap, it wouldnt start, but It did finally but had temp. problems, I order housing gaskets and rotors bearings, and thats it.
Have not started the engine yet, will post comment once I do.

L8tr

10-16-2008, 04:11 PM

Thanks for the great show & tell, it was very interesting and informative!

Targatheory

10-30-2008, 04:04 AM

So is this procedure possible for the average enthusiast who has never worked on a motor before? All that's really needed is the gasket kit, some oem seals and a lot patience is what I would assume.

Charles R. Hill

10-30-2008, 09:51 AM

Keep in mind that those who are really good at what they do will make it appear as if anyone can do it..........

I am by no means an Elitist when it comes to modding the RX-8/Renesis but rebuilding an engine isn't, as Joe Biden might say, "conducive to on-the-job training". The removal/replacement might not be so bad, thanks to ISO9000, but the engine is a different story.

bse50

10-30-2008, 09:57 AM

I am by no means an Elitist when it comes to modding the RX-8/Renesis but rebuilding an engine isn't, as Joe Biden might say, "conducive to on-the-job training". The removal/replacement might not be so bad, thanks to ISO9000, but the engine is a different story.

Right but...
a common 4stroke engine is way harder to rebuild imho, and with the informations provided around the web and the right tools a mechanically inclined folk can succeed taking its time :)

Charles R. Hill

10-30-2008, 10:00 AM

........ for the average enthusiast who has never worked on a motor before?

Giorgio, I hope you read Italian Law better than you read other peoples' posts! Further, website information provides no means to instruct others on the touch and feel required in order to know if the apex seal springs have been installed properly. This is learned only from guidance and experience.

bse50

10-30-2008, 10:08 AM

Yes, but i was\am the average enthusiast and before my first rebuild i never worked on an engine. In fact, i'm not able to work on 4cycle engines (only a bit of rotaries, and 2strokes).
Remember when i asked you confirmation about the tolerances? for sure i'm not afraid of exploding the stuff i test\do , but with some instructions i think that a common guy might try and succeed. Obviously not needing the stuff you work on is a must, just in case something goes wrong.

RotaryResurrection

10-30-2008, 02:19 PM

So is this procedure possible for the average enthusiast who has never worked on a motor before? All that's really needed is the gasket kit, some oem seals and a lot patience is what I would assume.

Possible? Yes. Likely to get everything 100% correct the first time? The odds are not in your favor.

I'd say that a first timer with no significant mechanical experience would stand about a 25% chance of being able to do this job from start to finish without either losing patience and paying someone else to take over, or missing a few critical details here or there that result in a non running (or non properly running) car that, again, they lose patience with and pay someone else to re-do the entire job.

Also if you've never gone through the job with someone else more experienced prior, you won't know what to look out for, how to handle the parts, etc. If you've worked with someone who can show you what to expect and certain critical aspects of the work, then it is certainly plausible that you could then do the job yourself with very few issues.

HeavyMetal699

10-30-2008, 02:53 PM

Possible? Yes. Likely to get everything 100% correct the first time? The odds are not in your favor.

I'd say that a first timer with no significant mechanical experience would stand about a 25% chance of being able to do this job from start to finish without either losing patience and paying someone else to take over, or missing a few critical details here or there that result in a non running (or non properly running) car that, again, they lose patience with and pay someone else to re-do the entire job.

Also if you've never gone through the job with someone else more experienced prior, you won't know what to look out for, how to handle the parts, etc. If you've worked with someone who can show you what to expect and certain critical aspects of the work, then it is certainly plausible that you could then do the job yourself with very few issues.

I second everything RR said. First engine I did a rebuild on was a 302 out of a mustang. I ended up rebuilding it twice the first time around because of critical steps I missed(not even in the book actually). Simple things like marking pushrods(if you reuse them) by cylinder number and which end is which is very critical. And for the first time noob you wonder why the hell are you doing that anyways, it doesn't make sense.

If I would of paid someone else to do it the first time around it would of ended up saving me alot of money.

rotorhead335

11-16-2008, 03:38 PM

Not bad looking once I wipe it off a bit. Mild wear, light chome flaking on the rearmost edge of the housing. This area is where the short triangle assist piece of the apex seal rides, and due to it's sharp tip, it digs out a groove on that rear edge and causes the chrome coating to flake off over time. All used rotary engine rotor housings with more than 30-40k miles will have some wear/flaking here.

On the rotor housing where the cracks are at the plug holes, you see a thick stripe of carbon buildup on the housing. The reason for this is that the cracks expand under heat, and push out into the combustion chamber. Since the apex seals ride over this, that means they get pushed up off of the housing for a split second in that one spot, over and over. Since the cracks are only in the center of the housing, the rest of the housing in that spot remains flat, and blowby occurs there while the seal is lifted off of the housing.

This is further detrimental in that the apex seal is constantly riding over a "bump" on the housing, and so the center of the seal is going to wear more due to this. So, even when the seal is over on another part of the housing that is flat, the "bump" has worn a bit of material out of the center of the seal, and so blowby can still occur everywhere. This means a loss of compression and power.

There are only a couple of things you can do about this. 1) replace both rotor housings with new ones or used ones with less wear, at a significant cost, anywhere from a few hundred for a used set to over a grand for a new set. 2) grind down the cracks lightly so that they will not expand when the housing is put back into use, and the seal will not skip over them. Compression will not be lost elsewhere on the housing, and compression loss due to blowby at the plug hole itself will be minimized.

I am disturbed by the way mazda cast the irons to prevent any significant porting or reshaping whatsoever. I know others have already posted about this on the forum so I will not comment further, other than to say that these engines are basically going to be what they were in stock form, there is not much at this time that can be done to improve them for a stock or mildly modded street car, without making significant compromises.

One thing I dislike about the renesis, mazda runs a VERY loose side seal clearance, 2-3 times what was acceptable in the previous versions. This causes blowby, carbon buildup on the sides of the rotors, and a bit of compression loss. I am pondering on trying a couple of things to run less sideseal clearance and perhaps improving efficiency. To do this I will use the "extra long" renesis side seals that are available by special order, and hand fit them as per previous versions.

I have already thanked RR in a PM (two, actually) for his generous expenditure of time and effort to bring us this superb post. Please note that ALL bold highlights in his quoted text are by me. Now, here is my question for anyone who cares to answer: It appears that what RR's observations reveal is that Mazda has given us, after "10 years in development" (RX-8), is an engine that is inherently problematic, if not doomed to failure, and cannot easily be improved after the fact (again, all statements are mine, not his). Uh, this doesn't feel too good. Anyone care to weigh in on this? :eyetwitch :

alz0rz

11-16-2008, 03:54 PM

Lube.

ASH8

11-16-2008, 04:02 PM

I have already thanked RR in a PM (two, actually) for his generous expenditure of time and effort to bring us this superb post. Please note that ALL bold highlights in his quoted text are by me. Now, here is my question for anyone who cares to answer: It appears that what RR's observations reveal is that Mazda has given us, after "10 years in development" (RX-8), is an engine that is inherently problematic, if not doomed to failure, and cannot easily be improved after the fact (again, all statements are mine, not his). Uh, this doesn't feel too good. Anyone care to weigh in on this? :eyetwitch :
With dues respect to the OP (great thread BTW)..
Mazda have been making and developing the rotary for over 40 years, I think they know what they are doing.
The RENESIS was not designed or built to be modded whatsoever. OK.
Everything (side exhaust porting) was done to pass emissions, because it can't be modded does not represent failure.
The future of the Rotary is from an alternative fuel (hydrogen), we all know that.
I really doubt that we will see the 16X anytime soon, if at all.
Series II Rx-8 sales have unfortunately been appalling, I think this is the last rotary we will see for some years.
Until the alternative fuel is mainstream.

ASH8

11-16-2008, 04:10 PM

What Mazda have recognised is the poor lubrication of the centre area of the Apex seals, hence the 3rd (middle) oil injector for series II RX-8's.

I am disappointed that they did not discover this before the RENESIS release as a poor reputation is hard to shrug off.
Mazda was relying on a new generation of rotary fans (youth) to re-lite a revolution.

RotaryResurrection

11-16-2008, 04:25 PM

For what it is, I think it is great. It makes more power and drives more smoothly than the last non turbo rotary.

I think that if you buy this car, you buy it for what it is, and not what you can build it to be. That is the opposite of older rotaries and rx7s...those cars were not all that awesome in stock form, but were easily modified for power and appearance. So you bought those cars for their potential and not their stock performance.

Usually manufacturers engineer a car to X performance level, and then subtract some of that, and release the car to the public with (X - Y) level of performance. And then to get more power the aftermarket simply makes some tweaks to add Y again, and you have a strong car. What mazda did here is to engineer the car for X, and released it basically still with X, meaning that there is not much more to be added by the aftermarket safely without making compromises.

I do not share the opinion of some of the renesis elitists here on this forum, that think the renesis is a quantum leap ahead of previous rotaries. I think what it does in stock form is impressive, but I think it is slightly under-engineered given that mazda had 10 more years of R&D to put into it since development of the FD in 1992-1993.

I think the irons are made from a lower grade material as they seem to crack and corrode very easily under the right circumstances, compared to older irons. The way they are cast also makes any significant porting impossible. I think the rotor housings still wear just like the older ones did in spite of developments in metals and coatings that could have improved the sealing surfaces. I think the apex seal lubrication is still a sore spot and I think the side seals are left too loose, allowing extra blowby.

I think they also could have made the ignition a bit stronger, as this has always been a strong point of previous rotaries. Ignitions on 2nd gen rx7s could support 500+hp in stock form. The stock ignition of rx8s cannot support stock hp reliably.

I also think they could have gotten better mpg out of it by changing the gearing a little bit and not running it as rich. Even twin turbo FD's could do as much as 24-25 on the highway at 75, yet I have never gotten more than 20 out of an rx-8 (at 60-65mph) or 18.5-19 (75mph).

Again, bottom line the car is fine for what it is, and there are not many cars that are as nice or as smooth in the price range of today's market. To get better performance yo have to buy a higher price newer car, or a lower priced older car and then build it up.

olddragger

11-16-2008, 06:16 PM

every engine has its limits. Not that many people are working on major mods for the renasis through corporate funded research.
WOuld keeping this engine cooler help with the plug cracks?
OD

RotaryResurrection

11-17-2008, 12:24 PM

WOuld keeping this engine cooler help with the plug cracks?
OD

I believe it would, yes. As the rotary was set up to make more power and meet tighter emissions, mazda has run them hotter and hotter through the years, mainly starting in 93 with the FD.

Coincidentally, this is also when the plug hole cracking became an issue. This problem was NEVER seen on pre-FD rotaries that tended to run cooler on average. Why? They had a larger radiator, mounted almost perpendicular to the ground for good airflow. They had a big clutch fan that pulled lots of air consistently. And they had a massive oil cooler as well, and that oil cooler was fed through the main grille opening in the front bumper, and not through a small opening in the corner of a bumper with a plastic duct behind it.

Then with the FD (the rx-8 is set up identical to an FD for cooling purposes) they put in a half-size radiator with 2 small e-fans, and further they only turn those e-fans on when the temp gets pretty high. I dont know the fan turn-on spec for the rx-8, but the factory fan turn on spec for FD was 220-225. Then you had either one or 2 small oil coolers depending on model (same for the rx-8), and the both of them put together are not as efficient as the one large, thick FC rx-7 cooler.

MazdaManiac

11-17-2008, 12:56 PM

RX-8 OE fan-on temps are 207 and 214 (low/high).

RotaryResurrection

11-17-2008, 01:08 PM

morkusyambo

11-17-2008, 08:43 PM

Great thread! Thanks for the info.

rotorhead335

11-17-2008, 11:22 PM

What Mazda have recognised is the poor lubrication of the centre area of the Apex seals, hence the 3rd (middle) oil injector for series II RX-8's.

Let's see, the Renesis was released in 2003, the Series II car in 2009. So are we saying that it was in the 41st year, or the 46th, that Mazda pooled nearly a half-century of learning to realize that a 3rd oil injector was necessary?

I am disappointed that they did not discover this before the RENESIS release as a poor reputation is hard to shrug off. They've earned it.

Mazda was relying on a new generation of rotary fans (youth) to re-lite a revolution. I don't think they were going after the youth market with a 4-door, 4-seat car. They were going after Yuppies with kids: "Hey, you can have a family and a career and a midlife crisis (sports car). But that's beside the point. RR is right. I first had an RX-7 (two, actually) as a daily driver beginning in 1984. It was fun, quick if not fast, nimble...and reliable. I think Mazda has seized defeat from the jaws of victory with our car. Yes, I do love driving it and, lucky for me, I have needed only a water pump in 70k miles. However, I doubt that many drive the car as gently as I (uh, most of the time).

This is my fourth Mazda, so I think I have demonstrated a fair amount of brand loyalty. And I have had very few problems. So why am I carping? Because we sports car fans need every reasonably priced product we can get, and how many auto companies have been willing to even get involved? ($Half-million doesn't count.) And now we have Global Warming and The Great Depression, Part II. How many more affordable, mainstream enthusiast automobiles are we likely to see in the next decade? I do not think Ford is going to look too kindly on this chain of events.

We have needed every model we could get, and not only affordable ones, but reliable and economical ones (within reason). We need them even more now.:rant:

ASH8

11-18-2008, 04:01 AM

Good info. I have to believe that for whatever reason the average 8 runs consistently warmer than 207, to see the amount of cracking at the sparkplug holes that I have seen in the engines I have thus far. Either something about the quality of the rotorhousing has changed (for the worse), or the temps in that area are higher than those in previous rotaries (including the aforementioned hot-running FD which sees 10psi boost in stock form), because of the severity of this issue at relatively low mileage.

All the series II RX-8's now have two oil coolers (Australian spec, auto and manuals only had one) with larger intake area and a larger radiator air flow intake (hence the larger grille), I am not sure yet if the actual oil coolers and radiator are larger in size, or if Mazda have adjusted the electric fan(s) on/off temp range.

As far as spark plug/housing cracking goes, we know that rotaries generate a lot of heat around that plug area, could the Iridium spark plugs generate more heat then previous NGK's?

Also on the subject of heat, I would like your opinion on all the plastic engine/battery (etc) covers in the engine bay. I wonder how efficiently heat is extracted away, rather than "hanging" around particularly when the car is stationary.

ASH8

11-18-2008, 04:17 AM

I don't think they were going after the youth market with a 4-door, 4-seat car. They were going after Yuppies with kids: "Hey, you can have a family and a career and a midlife crisis (sports car). But that's beside the point. RR is right. I first had an RX-7 (two, actually) as a daily driver beginning in 1984. It was fun, quick if not fast, nimble...and reliable. I think Mazda has seized defeat from the jaws of victory with our car. Yes, I do love driving it and, lucky for me, I have needed only a water pump in 70k miles. However, I doubt that many drive the car as gently as I (uh, most of the time).

This is my fourth Mazda, so I think I have demonstrated a fair amount of brand loyalty. And I have had very few problems. So why am I carping? Because we sports car fans need every reasonably priced product we can get, and how many auto companies have been willing to even get involved? ($Half-million doesn't count.) And now we have Global Warming and The Great Depression, Part II. How many more affordable, mainstream enthusiast automobiles are we likely to see in the next decade? I do not think Ford is going to look too kindly on this chain of events.

We have needed every model we could get, and not only affordable ones, but reliable and economical ones (within reason). We need them even more now.:rant:

First, there are (in the US) many very young new RX-8 owners (17-25), who were 8 and 16 years of age when the last FD RX-7 was sold in the US, so for the US a new rotary generation was and is born. Here in Australia we pay 40% more for the same car so there is a older demographic of RX-8 owners.
Remember around 50% of all RX-8's are sold in North America.

Yes, I totally agree with you on wanting affordable enthusiast cars, and am very concerned on the future of Mazda and the Auto Industry now we have this "Financial CRISIS", aren't you sick of hearing about it..already!..

Personally, and sadly, I am almost certain Mazda will be shelving any new RX-8 or rotary for some time until alternative fuels (hydrogen) becomes mainstream.
Why, the face lift RX-8 sales have been very disappointing, 355 a month in the US and 40 a month in Australia, 150 in Japan, and I am guessing about the same in Europe, so we are talking about 9000 units a year, not enough to warrant a new model, unfortunately, and again the high gas price has almost killed any type of new fuel guzzler.

olddragger

11-18-2008, 12:04 PM

well at least i live in a part of the country were i am able to get the temps to 180F and never cooler than 165F ---even on track with ambiet of mid 70's. Street temps are that even in the high 90's. Just takes a few little mods to do it.
Nice info--thanks .
following with interest
OD

auzoom

12-22-2008, 10:08 PM

Well, I bought myself a second hand engine as a backup for my tired, low compression current engine. The "new" engine is supposed to be off an '04 model that was pulled with 10,000km's on the clock due to low compression. I bought in from someone interstate so had a rotary shop check it out. Their opinion was the engine was fine, it was just carboned up (especially the apex seals).

Here are some pics I took of the rotors. I haven't yet taken the housings out of the packaging.

Curious what people think.

Cheers

Andrew

auzoom

12-22-2008, 10:09 PM

some more.

auzoom

12-22-2008, 10:22 PM

robrecht

12-22-2008, 10:47 PM

What causes the "tappering" of the carbon build up on the outsides towards the tip?I think that's where the MOP 'injectors' have been oiling the rotor. Damn that's a lot of carbon build-up.

Nubo

12-23-2008, 12:46 AM

Last one and I have a few questions on it.

Is the flame front moving from left to right in this picture?

What is the "hole" right near the tip?

What causes the "tappering" of the carbon build up on the outsides towards the tip?

Cheers

Andrew

Here's my wild guess -- The tapering is from oil that wept past the apex seal; enough to keep carbon from sticking there. This would indicate the direction of rotation would have that rotor rotating from left to right as it sits on the table. The little hole in the carbon in the center of the rotor face just past the seal would be from a puff of hot compressed gas exiting the spark plug recess, being released as the seal moves past.

olddragger

12-23-2008, 09:26 PM

i dont think there is enough oil there to cause a difference in carbon deposits like that. that hole is from the leading sparkplug.
the patterns of the carbon is almost exactly like the different heat ranges on the rotor face during combustion?
that is a lot of carbon for that many miles--the sides are more interesting to me.
look and see how much carbon is in the lead sparkplug area on the housing.
i wonder what compression that engine ended up having!
it sure could have used a water meth system
OD

Nubo

12-24-2008, 04:40 PM

Clean that thing up already! What are you trying to do, make me sick!?

http://www.thebiographychannel.co.uk/images/biographies/main/787_bio_homepage_main.jpg

ASH8

12-24-2008, 04:54 PM

Andrew are you positive that RENY has only done 10,000KM (6,000 miles) ?
That is a lot of carbon for a very low mileage.

What did the owner do, stay under 2500 RPM all it's life, is it a 6 or 4 port, I guess a 4 from an Auto.

Most dealers here are throwing away the old engines and or give them away if you know the right person.

bse50

12-24-2008, 04:57 PM

Most dealers here are throwing away the old engines and or give them away if you know the right person.

Afaik, in italy they SAY that they still send them to japan. Strange enough, i have a couple of engines here :p I'm just getting ready, our 5 years warranties are coming to an end, and 9 or 12000€ for a new engine is way too much.
We will just try to help each other out ;)

auzoom

12-24-2008, 07:24 PM

Ash, as far as I know it was 10,000km. At worst it was 20,000km.

Its a 6 port and in the early days, all engine pulled HAD to go back to Mazda Australia for "research".

bes50, what are you picking the engine up for? If they are cheap I would definately be hoarding them because they are rare as hens teeth in most places.

I will hopefully get a chance to pull the housings out next week and post some pics up.

Cheers

Andrew

bse50

12-24-2008, 07:28 PM

I'm picking them up to help the italian community. If they break an engine i give them a freshly rebuilt one and they give me their broken one + cash to rebuild it.
With 0 income and such it is not a business, but you realize that paying something between 9000 and 12000€ for a new engine makes rebuilds pretty cheap!

mysql

12-24-2008, 07:50 PM

I think that's where the MOP 'injectors' have been oiling the rotor. Damn that's a lot of carbon build-up.

exactly. omp injects on the sides, so thats where it's clean. Here's mine with 50k miles:

http://img.ircimages.com/ircimages/1/1/116402743c19baedbee028555e9ccb40.jpg

http://img.ircimages.com/ircimages/e/9/e910f9b832f84a89e79871b7fa81434f.jpg

PotatoSoup

12-24-2008, 09:14 PM

mysql

12-24-2008, 09:17 PM

the rotors will always have carbon. mine likely have less than yours.

olddragger

12-24-2008, 09:32 PM

those actually look pretty good.
OD

G3tR3DDY2GR3DDY

12-24-2008, 09:51 PM

yea if you think about it those are all the uneven pressure points on the apex seals and springs. Its sprung in a bowl shape so you have the two edges and the contact point of the spring... makes some sense

ASH8

12-24-2008, 10:16 PM

exactly. omp injects on the sides, so thats where it's clean. Here's mine with 50k miles:

http://img.ircimages.com/ircimages/1/1/116402743c19baedbee028555e9ccb40.jpg

http://img.ircimages.com/ircimages/e/9/e910f9b832f84a89e79871b7fa81434f.jpg

YES Mate, your rotors look very clean for an engine that has done nearly 90,000KMS (50,000 miles)..

Do you mind me asking what was your regime of ownership...like
1.Did you pre-mix..and if so what ratio.
2.What engine oils did you use.
3.Type of Gas and Octane.
4.How did you drive it what were you rev ranges.

Was the re-build because of low compressions or other?

Look forward to your reply,
Ash

mysql

12-24-2008, 10:49 PM

YES Mate, your rotors look very clean for an engine that has done nearly 90,000KMS (50,000 miles)..

Do you mind me asking what was your regime of ownership...like
1.Did you pre-mix..and if so what ratio.
2.What engine oils did you use.
3.Type of Gas and Octane.
4.How did you drive it what were you rev ranges.

Was the re-build because of low compressions or other?

Look forward to your reply,
Ash

30,000 miles NA
20,000 miles turbocharged (9-12 psi, so 280-350 whp range)
-------------------------------
50,000 miles total

Rebuild done because of mazsport ignition coils + detonation cracking the front iron (See rebuild thread for details (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=148395)). Engine still ran fine, had normal compression. When it was being rebuilt, I expected further damage, but everything was OK besides the cracked front iron, which wouldn't even be an issue if it wasn't for the fact that oil was leaking from it. I had already bought all new parts, and with 20% restocking fee for most of it, I decided to use the new parts even though the engine didn't need them... so my engine is pretty much brand new. Only the center and rear iron, and rotors were retained from the old engine. All new seals, all new gaskets, all new rotor housings.

I premix at 4-6 oz per tank. FP+ and Idemitsu.

I use the sohn adaptor, and run synthetic oil in the engine. I used to use 10w30, I now run 10w40.

I change coolant, transmission oil, spark plugs, and coils once a year.

oil is changed every 2500-3000 miles.

I now use the accessport and increased omp flow rates, but that came after the rebuild, so it doesn't count.

only 93 octane due to the turbo. I boost all the time with it.

see my sig for the photos and rebuild threads.

rebuild video, including what the cracked iron looked like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDgJZA0aI5E

I dare say that most people do not take care of their rx-8 like I do. :)

mysql

12-24-2008, 10:55 PM

btw, I didn't mean to throw this thread off topic. RotaryResurrection does great work and I was actually very close to having him rebuild my engine. We ran into some logistics issues and so it wasn't meant to be.

RotaryResurrection

12-24-2008, 11:10 PM

yeah bro, my wife would have bitched us both out if I tried to work while on vacation, since I work so much the other 51 weeks of the year. :rofl:

ASH8

12-25-2008, 01:51 AM

30,000 miles NA
20,000 miles turbocharged (9-12 psi, so 280-350 whp range)
-------------------------------
50,000 miles total

Rebuild done because of mazsport ignition coils + detonation cracking the front iron (See rebuild thread for details (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=148395)). Engine still ran fine, had normal compression. When it was being rebuilt, I expected further damage, but everything was OK besides the cracked front iron, which wouldn't even be an issue if it wasn't for the fact that oil was leaking from it. I had already bought all new parts, and with 20% restocking fee for most of it, I decided to use the new parts even though the engine didn't need them... so my engine is pretty much brand new. Only the center and rear iron, and rotors were retained from the old engine. All new seals, all new gaskets, all new rotor housings.

I premix at 4-6 oz per tank. FP+ and Idemitsu.

I use the sohn adaptor, and run synthetic oil in the engine. I used to use 10w30, I now run 10w40.

I change coolant, transmission oil, spark plugs, and coils once a year.

oil is changed every 2500-3000 miles.

I now use the accessport and increased omp flow rates, but that came after the rebuild, so it doesn't count.

only 93 octane due to the turbo. I boost all the time with it.

see my sig for the photos and rebuild threads.

rebuild video, including what the cracked iron looked like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDgJZA0aI5E

I dare say that most people do not take care of their rx-8 like I do. :)

Thanks man,
What a great Video, and superb job by Charles (how is your back! sore) In just 3 days.
Your old engine looked in great condition and well cared for.
Gee that side seal in the old engine was very short/loose!
Did you replace the rotor housings for any specific reason (mileage)?.
I for one agree, if you can afford to you are better off replacing them as now you virtually have a complete brand new motor and no chance of having warped rotor housings in the rebuild because you renewed them.
Side housings (irons) were also in terrific condition (the 2 good ones), clean and mirrored surface...well the video shows that.

Fantastic job Charles , here is a man that is a do-er and has the experience and knowledge, a man of similar age to myself...great job again guys...

Merry Christmas too...I have just got home from our family dinner/turkey.

ASH8

12-25-2008, 01:57 AM

Forgot to ask,
I take it the rotor and stationary gear bearings were all OK, as the eccentric shaft also looked brand new with no wear marks...

Benjamz

12-25-2008, 02:30 AM

Started new thred to stop my re-post which I unconsciously love to do.

MazdaManiac

12-25-2008, 02:39 AM

2004 (2003) is the first "generation".
2005 is the first minor change.
2006 - 2008 is the second "generation".
2009 is the third "generation", but since it is the first re-tooling, it would probably be considered the second "generation" by most.

If you use past models as an indicator, we are really still in the first "generation" since the design really hasn't changed and the production code is still SE3P (VIN FE).
The next "generation" RX-8 would be FF.

Minotavr

12-25-2008, 03:14 AM

swoope

12-25-2008, 03:51 AM

...so if I had an engine change in the summer of 2006 on my 2004 RX does that mean that the engine is a bit upgraded ?

nope.

beers :beer:

mysql

12-25-2008, 07:06 AM

Gee that side seal in the old engine was very short/loose!

That's how they come from Mazda, and why some people like to cut them to fit instead of using precut.

Did you replace the rotor housings for any specific reason (mileage)?

No reason. I already had the parts. There was a 20% restocking fee @ $650 per housing. So I used them rather than return them.

Side housings (irons) were also in terrific condition (the 2 good ones), clean and mirrored surface...well the video shows that.

Yes, it's like a mirror. The photos don't show the condition nearly as well as the video.

PotatoSoup

12-25-2008, 10:36 AM

the rotors will always have carbon. mine likely have less than yours.

I'm just a prospective RX-8 owner. I've never owned a rotary, which is why I asked. Still learning.

DOMINION

12-30-2008, 09:40 AM

Where can one find this "REmedy water pump"?

Charles R. Hill

12-30-2008, 11:20 AM

Where can one find this "REmedy water pump"?

You're joking, Gil..... aren't you?

auzoom

12-30-2008, 07:58 PM

Where can one find this "REmedy water pump"?
Just in case you weren't joking MazMart (http://www.mazmart.com/remedy.html).

I still have mine to fit 4 months later :|

Cheers

Andrew

KostasNK

01-16-2009, 02:42 AM

30,000 miles NA
20,000 miles turbocharged (9-12 psi, so 280-350 whp range)
-------------------------------
50,000 miles total

I use the sohn adaptor, and run synthetic oil in the engine. I used to use 10w30, I now run 10w40.

I change coolant, transmission oil, spark plugs, and coils once a year.

oil is changed every 2500-3000 miles.

I now use the accessport and increased omp flow rates, but that came after the rebuild, so it doesn't count.

only 93 octane due to the turbo. I boost all the time with it.

see my sig for the photos and rebuild threads.

rebuild video, including what the cracked iron looked like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDgJZA0aI5E

I dare say that most people do not take care of their rx-8 like I do. :)

How much increased omp flow rates are you using with the accessport? I am using +20% NA. Just curious how much you are using for a FI car.

arghx7

02-01-2009, 02:03 AM

question for Rotary Resurrection about side seal clearance: you said the Renesis uses coded side seals that do not need to be clearanced by hand (although you have done it before using extra long ones).

What is the range of side seal clearances in thousanths of an inch that you have been seeing on motors you tear down? Are we talking 6-7 thou here? I believe the max acceptable clearance on the older 13B's was 6 thou. And what did you clearance the side seals to on the 6 port you built for your own car? 2-3 thou ?

Does everyone else here who builds these motors (and I know there are only a few) just use the factory coded seals?

Charles R. Hill

02-01-2009, 02:08 AM

Does everyone else here who builds these motors (and I know there are only a few) just use the factory coded seals?

Nope.

RotaryResurrection

02-02-2009, 12:15 PM

I have not actually measured clearance on the engines I have torn down, half the time the side seals fall out of the rotor before you can even get it out of the engine anyway. The ones I have checked by hand, feel about 5-10 thousandths to me.

I was in a little hurry when I built my own engine so I just threw it together with the longest used oem side seals I had on hand (I saved the ones from the cores I tore down). My engine is basically 100% bone stock, built with the best parts out of all the core parts I had at the time.

teknics

02-08-2009, 03:00 PM

random somewhat offtopic question here, just wondering something.

how long does it take to pull the motor out from the top? dropping the subframe with the trans and engine is how i do it and it takes almost no time (i do it almost twice weekly), so i was just wondering the amount of time the other side of the coin takes.

kevin.

RotaryResurrection

02-08-2009, 11:49 PM

teknics

02-10-2009, 12:37 PM

I'd say a couple hours out the top, give or take depending on how hard you are working.

For those of us without lifts it is really the only option...how else are you going to elevate the body 4 feet off the ground to clear the engine/subframe assembly?

LOL, not hating on you (BTW i'm the same teknics form rx7club, dealt with you a few times, had a big problem with those canada guys doing the ceramic coating a few years ago etc). I was honestly just wondering for my own reference.

you should just invest in a lift, sell your denali, if you still have it :), you'll save yourself tons of time pulling motors.

see ya,
kevin.

RotaryResurrection

02-10-2009, 05:07 PM

LOL, not hating on you (BTW i'm the same teknics form rx7club, dealt with you a few times, had a big problem with those canada guys doing the ceramic coating a few years ago etc). I was honestly just wondering for my own reference.

you should just invest in a lift, sell your denali, if you still have it :), you'll save yourself tons of time pulling motors.

see ya,
kevin.

I dont have room for a lift...my work area only has a 10 foot ceiling. Plus it would take up valuable room. I have no problem doing it the way I do now, I am quite efficient at it. If I can get an rx7 engine out in 2 hours and an rx8 in 2-3 then I dont think I'd gain too much using a lift, especially since I am only doing about 1 install per month these days.

If things dont change in 2009 I will be forced to walk away from the rotary game anyway.

robrecht

02-10-2009, 06:42 PM

If things dont change in 2009 I will be forced to walk away from the rotary game anyway.Wow, that would suck!

teknics

02-10-2009, 06:49 PM

I dont have room for a lift...my work area only has a 10 foot ceiling. Plus it would take up valuable room. I have no problem doing it the way I do now, I am quite efficient at it. If I can get an rx7 engine out in 2 hours and an rx8 in 2-3 then I dont think I'd gain too much using a lift, especially since I am only doing about 1 install per month these days.

If things dont change in 2009 I will be forced to walk away from the rotary game anyway.

wow really? Didnt know you'd been affected so heavily, last I knew your business was pretty busy.

Hope the best and that things pick up for you asap, warm weather (on the east coast) is right around the corner, hope you see a boost.

kevin.

ASH8

02-10-2009, 07:06 PM

If things dont change in 2009 I will be forced to walk away from the rotary game anyway.

I guess Mazda's (US) 8 Year Warranty would not help your business.

Sad, as you appear to be a reliable and trusting repairer.

Has your local economy "switched" off that greatly since the "financial meltdown".

Good luck to you.:)

RotaryResurrection

02-10-2009, 08:50 PM

wow really? Didnt know you'd been affected so heavily, last I knew your business was pretty busy.

Hope the best and that things pick up for you asap, warm weather (on the east coast) is right around the corner, hope you see a boost.

kevin.

Dont get me wrong, I am still getting by. But I am not really making anything...just keeping my personal bills paid with enough to eat comfortably and that is about it. Not enough to put anything into savings, cover unexpected issues that arise in life, or splurge on any major toys or projects.

I normally average 44-50 engines per year which breaks down to right at 1 per week, accounting for 2-3 vacation weeks and holidays. We are now in the 6th week of the year and I have done 2 engines thus far.

The only thing keeping me afloat since October has been small part sales on ebay stores which has done well beyond my expectations, thankfully.

mid/late Feb until early summer is usually the very busy season for me, and it looks like a couple of jobs will be incoming in the next 2 weeks so that looks promising. But I still have to be concerned about the 2nd half of the year, if I am unable to save up enough funds from the busy part (first half) like I have in years past.

That, combined with all the BS as of late in the rx7 community and my falling out with 7club, makes me almost ready to just look for something else to hang my hat on, and maybe just do rotaries part time or not at all.

RotaryResurrection

02-10-2009, 08:59 PM

I guess Mazda's (US) 8 Year Warranty would not help your business.

Sad, as you appear to be a reliable and trusting repairer.

Has your local economy "switched" off that greatly since the "financial meltdown".

Good luck to you.:)

Actually the warranty really f'd me pretty hard. I was starting to get a few requests for renesis rebuilds and installs. I spent probably 4-6 grand this year on renesis core engines and internal parts to stock my shelf in anticipation of the coming need for replacement parts. I put a large part of this year's profits back into buying renesis stuff.

Then the warranty came out. Dont get me wrong...it was a great step by mazda for their original owner/customer base. But it was a bitch slap across the face to me...now I have all these parts on my shelf that are nearly useless (and valueless) because everyone is getting free mazda remans so no one is going to need any internals or pay for any private rebuilding service.

I have had no requests for rx8 work since the warranty extension. I actually lost a job right when the letters were mailed. I'd gotten a call from a local used car dealership who sold an rx8 and a few days later the buyer complained of engine failure and threatened to sue his dealership. He inquired about getting me to go through the engine for him, he was going to split the costs with the buyer as a show of good faith, and I can already do the job for half of mazda's cost to begin with, so it was going to help him out a lot. Well, the letter came to me, and the next day the guy called back asking when I could start on it for him. I was too nice of a guy to take advantage of him, so I explained the warranty letter would be coming to him or his buyer any day, and that he can now take the car back to mazda and get all the work done for free. Well, that and, I knew if I took the job and did the rebuild for him and THEN he/his buyer got the warranty letter, they'd bitch about having to pay me and it may cause unnecessary problems. Or if they got the letter right after I finished the job, they would bitch because mazda probably would not reimburse them for the work they paid me for.

I will still be able to recoup my investment from these renesis cores I have bought, but it will just take 2-3 years longer than anticipated because no one needs any of it right now. Just look at the guy with the NEW set of renesis engine rotors in the classifieds for less than half of what ONE new rotor would cost at retail, and no bites.

Most of my work is actually not local...in fact excluding the one "distributor" that I use to sell my engines through (who is local to me), I do 90% of my work for customers outside the state of TN.

But yes, the local economy has taken a hard hit. This is an industrial town and about half of the factories have laid off, the other half have stopped hiring altogether. My wife's aunt works at a Sea-Ray plant where they build boats. She was temporarily laid off between mid October and early January of this year along with about 50% of the work force. When she returned to work in January they told them that they had 90 days of employment before a permanent layoff.

elysium19

02-10-2009, 09:27 PM

Damn...
Building rotaries seems like such an art, it's really sad for me to hear about someone with your experience being on the brink of running an unsustainable business. Good luck to you....

robrecht

02-10-2009, 10:09 PM

That really sucks. what's the deal with the rx7 community?

RotaryResurrection

02-11-2009, 12:23 AM

That really sucks. what's the deal with the rx7 community?

A lot of the long time owners have sold their cars and moved on to other newer platforms. A lot of the cars are getting parted or wrecked. A lot of guys are buying perfectly good cars that need just a few things, and parting them out for money instead of putting them back on the road like they should be. Many of the long time owners are at odds with each other due to business or technical disagreements and so there arent as many big meets and clubs as there used to be.

The people who do buy and own them are largely young and dumb, thus they just tear things up on the cars even worse than they were. Being young they rarely have the funds to rebuild and modify the cars properly. They "come into the game" and want those of us with knowledge to simply tell them what to do, instead of them doing their own research and figuring out how to do what they want. Then these people get mad when we refuse to spoon feed them, and say we are "hating on" them. People are hacking the cars up for drift cars and piston engine swaps, and halfass "street race" cars.

Just this month a local guy located a rare 89 turbo II rx7 in the backwoods of east TN. The car ran and drove but did need an engine refresh to be reliable. The 89-91 turbo models are the most desireable and rare 2nd gens, especially in good condition. Some of them fetch as much money as 3rd gen FD's.

So what does this guy do with this rare and desireable car? He promptly starts hacking the car up for an iron block v8 swap. :banghead:

It's not the fact that he's doing the swap. It's the fact that he chose the rare model to hack up instead of using a run of the mill, dime-a-dozen non turbo body to hack on to his heart's content. I told him he is doing the equivalent of hacking up a stock buick grand national, instead of buying a shitty regal body to hack up instead. The end result would perform the same for him, but one less rare car is on the road now for everyone else.

Rx7club has done it's best in the last 12-14 months to alienate every major vendor and parts seller who refuses to pay their ransom and do things they way they want them done, even if those ways are completely back assward. They have split the community in doing so, and continue to cover this up and lie about it. They have forced their forum members to buy from lesser known and lesser trustworthy sellers because all the good ones are no longer there. The forum is no longer a center of technical information because there is so much bullshit posted on a daily basis that few questions get answered, the archives pile up with useless threads, and the knowledgeable posters have mostly given up on the cause and no longer contribute routinely.

nycgps

02-11-2009, 12:45 AM

hmm ... I know what you mean, I saw all these "rx7 with LS1 swap" on ebay, with that ugly ass intake going thru the hood ... I mean, wow ... what a total jerk.

sorry to hear about the 7 community turned into like this.

ASH8

02-11-2009, 03:33 AM

Actually the warranty really f'd me pretty hard. I was starting to get a few requests for renesis rebuilds and installs. I spent probably 4-6 grand this year on renesis core engines and internal parts to stock my shelf in anticipation of the coming need for replacement parts. I put a large part of this year's profits back into buying renesis stuff.

Then the warranty came out. Dont get me wrong...it was a great step by mazda for their original owner/customer base. But it was a bitch slap across the face to me...now I have all these parts on my shelf that are nearly useless (and valueless) because everyone is getting free mazda remans so no one is going to need any internals or pay for any private rebuilding service.

I have had no requests for rx8 work since the warranty extension. I actually lost a job right when the letters were mailed. I'd gotten a call from a local used car dealership who sold an rx8 and a few days later the buyer complained of engine failure and threatened to sue his dealership. He inquired about getting me to go through the engine for him, he was going to split the costs with the buyer as a show of good faith, and I can already do the job for half of mazda's cost to begin with, so it was going to help him out a lot. Well, the letter came to me, and the next day the guy called back asking when I could start on it for him. I was too nice of a guy to take advantage of him, so I explained the warranty letter would be coming to him or his buyer any day, and that he can now take the car back to mazda and get all the work done for free. Well, that and, I knew if I took the job and did the rebuild for him and THEN he/his buyer got the warranty letter, they'd bitch about having to pay me and it may cause unnecessary problems. Or if they got the letter right after I finished the job, they would bitch because mazda probably would not reimburse them for the work they paid me for.

I will still be able to recoup my investment from these renesis cores I have bought, but it will just take 2-3 years longer than anticipated because no one needs any of it right now. Just look at the guy with the NEW set of renesis engine rotors in the classifieds for less than half of what ONE new rotor would cost at retail, and no bites.

Most of my work is actually not local...in fact excluding the one "distributor" that I use to sell my engines through (who is local to me), I do 90% of my work for customers outside the state of TN.

But yes, the local economy has taken a hard hit. This is an industrial town and about half of the factories have laid off, the other half have stopped hiring altogether. My wife's aunt works at a Sea-Ray plant where they build boats. She was temporarily laid off between mid October and early January of this year along with about 50% of the work force. When she returned to work in January they told them that they had 90 days of employment before a permanent layoff.

Well mate you sound like a really honorable and decent bloke.

YOUR GOOD KARMA will come back to you.

If you can hang onto your gear there will be a time when the warranty runs out and I know in the future Guys here (US) will support you...but alas,, it is a LONG wait.

This melt down is very scary, we here in Australia are yet to see the HARD hit, but they are happening and we will be in the same position as the US very soon.

This is going to take years to bounce back, when all the debt is paid off.IMO.

Take care man!

robrecht

02-11-2009, 08:02 AM

RR, you sound like a true master craftsman who truly loves his art. I almost wish I needed a rebuild.

rotarygod

02-11-2009, 10:34 AM

Rx7club has done it's best in the last 12-14 months to alienate every major vendor and parts seller who refuses to pay their ransom and do things they way they want them done, even if those ways are completely back assward. They have split the community in doing so, and continue to cover this up and lie about it. They have forced their forum members to buy from lesser known and lesser trustworthy sellers because all the good ones are no longer there. The forum is no longer a center of technical information because there is so much bullshit posted on a daily basis that few questions get answered, the archives pile up with useless threads, and the knowledgeable posters have mostly given up on the cause and no longer contribute routinely.

While I agree that it's tough for vendors now based on the new ownership, and the same is true here too, I actually don't miss most of the people who left that forum. For the most part I think the 7club forum is better now than it has been in a very long time. It's much nicer. That forum has gone uphill while this one has gone down a bit. Many of the people who were perceived as "knowledgable", I always thought were complete idiots and I for one don't miss them. The sad thing is that I can really only name one person off the top of my head as the rest were so insignificant in the rotary world as far as I'm concerned that I've completely forgotten who they are. All I know is that people aren't as mean there as they used to be and there is alot less bad advice going around that these so called "knowledgable" people were spouting off as fact. Some of the "smart" people over there gave out the absolute worst advice. It was those same people who were the most argumentative and who were the biggest pricks about things so I'm not really sad to see anything change over there. It was needed. The only regret is the way vendors are treated but that's beyond moderator control and lies in the hands of the forum ownership.

teknics

02-11-2009, 01:10 PM

rotaryres: as im sure you know, there's more then one side of the rx7 neighborhood, rx7club simply happens to be the biggest. there are plenty of people out there keeping heritage alive and respecting what the rx7 is/was.

you should hop over to "the other forum" and wander around, some really good guys there, they muck around a bit but thats cause most longtime guys are straight carguys and so we share carguy-esque convos.

kevin.

RotaryResurrection

02-11-2009, 02:31 PM

I am on the other forum...in fact I am the vendor admin there. It is a great place to hang out and discuss things with reasonably intelligent people, but there simply is not enough traffic to help from a business standpoint at this time.

teknics

02-11-2009, 06:52 PM

which other forum are you talking about?

kevin.

rotarygod

02-11-2009, 07:51 PM

ASH8

02-11-2009, 08:07 PM

teknics

02-11-2009, 09:09 PM

The sad thing Kevin is that as these cars get older and older and slowly disappear, there's going to be less and less business which sucks. Many of the RX-8 owners aren't the fanatics or experimenters that the 7 people are but there are a few here and there.

Yea on a business side it looks gloomy, basically narrowing itself down to a few good specialty shops in centralized areas, but i think everyone in the 7 world saw that coming. thats why im happy i work for mazda and get parts cheap and can do anything my car needs from building the engine to doing interior work, except paint it.

I think thats the way the core of the community, the "hardcore" real rotorheads, are going. the rest will see themselves to the door :)

thats the general rule of thumb for communities. start small, explosion of new/"odd thinkers", return to small, rinse, repeat. Unfortunately the cars are of limited quantity, parts are limitless with japan's supply though, well not limitless but you know. That and the replica makers who "kill" the originals, will continue making and rechurning, until new originals tired of the "cheap" replica makers will come out with some new crazy shit everyone wants and replica makers dont catch onto and tool up to quick enough.

kevin.

RotaryResurrection

02-11-2009, 09:37 PM

Depending on whether Mazda continues the RX-8 (just a model name) with another generation, which is sadly not looking very positive I believe you will see a growing market of young guys buying 9 year old RX-8's (Gen 1) and modding..like they do with the RX-7.

I really don't see much difference as there are many fanatic 8 owners out there.

The problem is the 8 is considerably more difficult and more expensive to modify for power, especially for big power, than the rx7s. I am of the opinion that you buy an rx7 for what you can build it into, not for what it is, because in stock form they are relatively tame and nothing special, but there are so many ways to build them to the power level that you want. And that you buy an rx8 for what it is and not what you can build it to be, for the reasons stated above.

I mean, look at what you spend trying to get 20-30rwhp...intake, pullies, catback, midpipe, AP/other PCM adaptation, you're well into the $2000 range. You want to get more than 235rwhp, you need boost, which will likely cut the (already questionable) engine's longevity in half and cost 4-10 grand.

Some might say, give it time, and more mods for the rx8s will come out and price will come down. We are now 5.5 years into the platform and development of significant modifications is still lagging and (for most) prohibitively expensive. In contrast it only took, what...1-2 years for twin turbo 350Z's and such to hit the market, with much better results in both power and reliability?

Sure, there will be rx8 work coming in at some point. It will be more stock rebuilds than modifications. I think lots of engine swaps will be done when the cars get cheaper. When a renesis breaks seals it will likely damage 4 of the 8 major parts in the engine and so the rebuild costs will be higher than the average for the older rotaries. When faced with a 2-4 grand minimum for stock power output and the likelihood of another 40-75k mile longevity and some people will either get rid of the car or do an engine swap rather than do a rebuild.

robrecht

02-11-2009, 10:20 PM

mazdaverx7

02-11-2009, 10:29 PM

Just this month a local guy located a rare 89 turbo II rx7 in the backwoods of east TN. The car ran and drove but did need an engine refresh to be reliable. The 89-91 turbo models are the most desireable and rare 2nd gens, especially in good condition. Some of them fetch as much money as 3rd gen FD's.

So what does this guy do with this rare and desireable car? He promptly starts hacking the car up for an iron block v8 swap. :banghead:

It's not the fact that he's doing the swap. It's the fact that he chose the rare model to hack up instead of using a run of the mill, dime-a-dozen non turbo body to hack on to his heart's content. I told him he is doing the equivalent of hacking up a stock buick grand national, instead of buying a shitty regal body to hack up instead. The end result would perform the same for him, but one less rare car is on the road now for everyone else.

i agree with you 100% on this Kevin. i buy more rusty 7's than i should. i only part 7's that are wrecked or rusted beyond repair. in my tenure of 11 years of RX-7 ownership and 30 RX-7's bought over that time frame, only two have been parted and one sent to the scrapper. every usable part, nut, bolt, and wire was stripped from the car. the people that hack up a perfectly savable 7 have every right to do so because, inevitably, they own the car..it is however an act of selfishness i feel in that as you stated, there are far less desirable examples to gut and cut. i personally will not sell someone a 7 if they have plans to tear the car to pieces and hack it. i had a man offer me $1500 for an 85 S that i bought for $200. i had close to $800 in the car when it was all said and done and the rockers still needed a lot of work and it needed paint and tires. i did not sell it to the man because he wanted the car for a 302 swap..just couldnt bring myself to do it.

arghx7

02-11-2009, 10:58 PM

RotaryResurrection

02-11-2009, 11:01 PM

40-75k longevity? I know there's been lots of problems but I'm still thinking a well cared for Renesis will do a lot better than that. Frequent oil changes with proper weight oil, premix, proper warm-ups, etc. Ask me again in 50k miles, I might not be singing the same tune. But we definitley need a new 7 for a better performance platform. Rotaries should be light weight.

Sure, SOME have gone well over 100k and SOME have failed in under 25k. On average from what I can tell, longevity of a normally driven rx8 is in the 40-75k range. If you doubt this, stroll down to your local mazda dealer and ask about the mileage of the 8's in for engine replacement. The last one I rebuilt for a customer had 81k on it.

Some of the guys here sackride the renesis design, and don't get me wrong, I do like the engine. However, when you stand back and look at it from a more objective point of view, the engine is a failure in terms of advancement of the cause and general public perception.

Mazda had 11 years worth of research/development plus the benefit of newer and better materials and control systems now available to use to build their new rotary. Yet we still find a rotary producing less power than the previous version (232 vs 255). The benefit of this is compromise is supposed to be better MPG and better longevity. Yet we see a rotary making the same or lower MPG as the last one (FD's can obtain 24-25mpg on the highway in flat areas, rx8's struggle to obtain 21-22) and we see one with just as many, if not more, warranty and engine replacement issues as the previous version.

Mazda seems to do everything right up to a certain point in engineering the engine and car, and then shoot themselves (and us) in the foot at the last minute. I dunno why, maybe they rush the product before it is really fully tested?

This is the same company that put a pulsation damper that failed quickly and caused engine fires on 2nd gen rx7s, and an ecu programmed with too much cranking fuel injection that caused consistent flooding of older models. The same company that put 70-some vacuum hoses and a plastic coolant tank in an FD engine bay that stayed 300 degrees, and alas, the same company that decided it would be a good idea not to inject oil on the center area of the apex seals in the renesis. All of these issues cause us to lose engines and cause the cars to have bad reputations.

RotaryResurrection

02-11-2009, 11:12 PM

I've met Kevin a couple times actually, though he wouldn't remember me. It was once at the 05 NOPI nationals when he had his silver FD and then at the 06 Deal's Gap meet briefly. Those were much better times. The NC rotaries crew has been in steady decline since 06 due to personal issues among some members (split in the major Raleigh group) and people's cars falling apart. The whole car scene has deteriorated, and all the people who got in when it was a fad are getting out fast. Most of my "car friends" have either moved up in the game (a few have gotten a newer and nicer car) or gotten out of project cars altogether.

I think people are going to look back at 01-06 as a sort of golden age of the car scene, like the late 60s. It may come back again but at this rate it could be half a lifetime away. Everybody's too broke to spend money on their cars. I know I've spent too much over the years and now I need to just get my 7 running again and not do a whole lot of modding for a while.

I would consider the 97 to early 01, and about 03 untill 06 period the "golden age" as well. Many new parts were introduced during that time and people started to figure out the "formula" for making good power with turbo rotaries and having an engine last more than a year at a time. With exception to the brief economic downturn surrounding 9/11, the economy was strong and people had money to resurrect these great cars and modify them. There were still enough good and unmolested examples around to find a good platform to build from with no major problems, but they were old and cheap enough to get them for a reasonable amount. There were plenty of people buying and selling parts and it was pretty easy to figure out the trustworthy sellers from the scammers.

Now most of those cars are hacked up or allowed to deteriorate. There are no longer very many "mid grade" rx7s...you either find a really nice one and pay out the yin-yang for it, or you find a piece of shit that someone still wants too much money for considering what you'd have to do to make it roadworthy again. Most of the reliable sellers have quit or gone out of business, or been run away for other reasons, and so old aftermarket parts are harder to find in good condition now. Scammers are more abundant and have filled the void left by the good sellers.

robrecht

02-11-2009, 11:22 PM

Some of the guys here sackride the renesis design, and don't get me wrong, I do like the engine. However, when you stand back and look at it from a more objective point of view, the engine is a failure in terms of advancement of the cause and general public perception.I don't disagree at all. As much as I love my RX-8, it has been a market failure at this point. I'm very glad I have one, but it isn't a car for a large market. I'm not an engineer but I think a few relatively simple design changes, however, would allow it to survive and even to thrive in a more narrowly defined niche as a true sportscar. 2-seater, very light weight, Sohn adapter, ceramic seals maybe ...

Nemesis8

02-16-2009, 12:38 PM

There will be lots of Renesis rebuilds in the near future I believe, so the business should be there for the RX8. I have 75K on my low compression motor, and I am opting to rebuild my block rather than fight Mazda for a reman.

morkusyambo

02-16-2009, 03:34 PM

I just purchased an 04/MT motor with 110000 miles. The owner had it compression checked and it was low, so he stopped driving it untill he could get another motor.

Any ideas where I can get the best prices on parts for a rebuild?

Charles R. Hill

02-16-2009, 04:00 PM

Best prices or easiest to order?

Charles R. Hill

02-16-2009, 04:01 PM

zoom44

02-16-2009, 04:40 PM

Yet we still find a rotary producing less power than the previous version (232 vs 255). The benefit of this is compromise is supposed to be better MPG and better longevity. Yet we see a rotary making the same or lower MPG as the last one (FD's can obtain 24-25mpg on the highway in flat areas, rx8's struggle to obtain 21-22)

these are misleading statements and show a lack of understanding on your part that i find astonishing for all your experience

First the 232 vs 255 is NA vs Turbo. look at the increase this engine vs the last non-turbo 13b AND compare the emissions- this is CLEARLY a better design. Take in to account as well that star mazda cars and others racing the Renesis are putting 245-260 out at the crank STILL NA and that puts the end to that comparison.

Second many many of us here have shown time and again that this car is capable of 24+ mpg Highway. The reason many don't is simple gear selection. This is in a car that weighs considerably more than the car you compare it to. Its at least a 20% improvement in mileage over that car when the weight of the cars are considered.

As far as longevity- The number of Renesis failures is from my understanding still under 5%. I believe 3rd gen failures in the states was something akin to 90%? Thats probably exaggerated and the Renesis could be 10% and there is no denying the Renesis failures- but to suggest it is any where near the level of 3rd gens is just ridiculous