I am seriously upset. I know I drive my car hard, but I also drive every single rotary engine that I build harder and my engines don't break this easy. When I first purchased the Rx8 my rear was humming on deceleration. I figured Ill take it back later when I had time. Later my tranny broke 3rd and 4th gears. I still needed the car for everyday use so I got by. meanwhile I called the dealer and told them to give me a date for me to drop the car of. later on that day I was driving normal not even pushing the engine hard and the engine broke and apex seal. I took the car back to my shop and I did a compression test and the rear rotor was dead. previosly to all this failures I notice hesitation on initial start up. From day 1 the tranny was making a loud input shaft bearing noise at idle in neutral. Like I said I drive the car hard but I also have pushed many rotary engines to the point of no return and no engine damage was caused. I'm talking about 44lbs of boost and up to 250plus shot of nitrous on some Non turbo engines and no damage. to the contrary the power that is created at this levels of boost and nitrous is pure heaven. I'm seriously upset with the the Rx8.

Have you been running racing fuel in this engine? I'm not suggesting that as the cause, just curious.

When I tested the car 3 weeks ago at the drag strip I used higher octane to prevent detonation. Only because I had tested and seen alot of timing advance under a load. Meanwhile weeks later Im using regular octane and doing my regular driving. and when I least expected snap,crackel, pop apex seal gone.

that sucks
sorry

Oh boy... sorry to hear your misfortune - but at the same token, I sure wouldn't let you drive my car :p

Originally posted by Judge Ito
I am seriously upset. I know I drive my car hard, but I also drive every single rotary engine that I build harder and my engines don't break this easy. When I first purchased the Rx8 my rear was humming on deceleration. I figured Ill take it back later when I had time. Later my tranny broke 3rd and 4th gears. I still needed the car for everyday use so I got by. meanwhile I called the dealer and told them to give me a date for me to drop the car of. later on that day I was driving normal not even pushing the engine hard and the engine broke and apex seal. I took the car back to my shop and I did a compression test and the rear rotor was dead. previosly to all this failures I notice hesitation on initial start up. From day 1 the tranny was making a loud input shaft bearing noise at idle in neutral. Like I said I drive the car hard but I also have pushed many rotary engines to the point of no return and no engine damage was caused. I'm talking about 44lbs of boost and up to 250plus shot of nitrous on some Non turbo engines and no damage. to the contrary the power that is created at this levels of boost and nitrous is pure heaven. I'm seriously upset with the the Rx8.

WOW! I really want an RX-8 but with so many failure stories I'm begining to be worried. I owned 2 rotaries before, a 12A and a 13B both non turbo. I drove them as hard as I could and they never failed on me.

Are you taking it for warranty repairs? I wonder what they'll say when they find all of your drivetrain main components broken! :eek:

By the way, how do you know an apex seal went out and not a side seal like some other reported engine failures?

is the renesis using the same 2mm apex seals as earlier 13b's, E.G FD?

Originally posted by neit_jnf
WOW! I really want an RX-8 but with so many failure stories I'm begining to be worried. I owned 2 rotaries before, a 12A and a 13B both non turbo. I drove them as hard as I could and they never failed on me.

Are you taking it for warranty repairs? I wonder what they'll say when they find all of your drivetrain main components broken! :eek:

By the way, how do you know an apex seal went out and not a side seal like some other reported engine failures? Apex seals are responsible for the engines main compression. When the apex seals break the engine will read no compression to very little compression. The side seals are in the side of the rotors and not responsible for the type of compression that the engine lost. Yes back for warranty repairs.

I am seriously going to look into the mis-firing problem that has been reported and try to fix that problem. Because my Rx8 is going to get some mod's and before I go further I want to fix this engine issues.

Originally posted by Kas
is the renesis using the same 2mm apex seals as earlier 13b's, E.G FD? The renesis is using a new type of 2 piece 2 mm apex seal designed to seal better at higher rpm's

Wow! Just when I thought some boost would be nice. Must be that dreaded oil injector failure that I've heard others talk about.

Judge Ito wrote.

From day 1 the tranny was making a loud input shaft bearing noise at idle in neutral.

mine too. so does that mean my engine is doomed too? as soon as i push the clutch in it goes away. sorry to hear about your misfortune.

No offense but ever since I bought the RX-8 I noticed right away, this was by no mean a replacement for the RX-7. It handles great, and has killer brakes as well, but I bought the car knowing full well it was not a newer RX-7. The car is very weak imo. The car just doesn’t make enough HP let alone TQ, it shares the same weak tranny as the mita and S15, and the engine design is just not that much of an improvement. Moving ports to the side and adding an extra injector or two (which is basically all Mazda really did) really hasn’t done shit to make it any stronger, last any longer, or get better mileage. If I had it my way, they should have just left the 13B alone and gave it a simpler twin turbo set up. If I’m going to blow the motor anyways, Id like to at least have the power to make me feel like it was worth it. And the mileage is worse then my FD with 1600 secondary injectors, which is just ridiculous. Don’t get me wrong, I love the RX-8, but it’s just not at the level Mazda promised, and makes me think how much the Renesis sucks compared to the FD motor. Now that I think about it, the RX-8 feels more like a Cosmo replacement minus a rotor :) .

so if you knew all this why the heck did you still buy 1?

If you felt straightaway that it was weak, did you jump at the chance to return the car?

Judge Ito wrote.

From day 1 the tranny was making a loud input shaft bearing noise at idle in neutral.

mine too. so does that mean my engine is doomed too? as soon as i push the clutch in it goes away. sorry to hear about your misfortune.


Crap mine does the same thing...Now I am nervous...I don't even drive her that hard

Later my tranny broke 3rd and 4th gears.

How many miles did you have on your car when this happened? And how many miles were on it when the seals broke?

Originally posted by RX-GR8
so if you knew all this why the heck did you still buy 1?

I bought it cause I needed a daily driver with 4 seats :D . And its a great looking car with potional never the less. Plus I'm patrial to the rotary either way :) .

Originally posted by Fab 8
If you felt straightaway that it was weak, did you jump at the chance to return the car?

actually believe it or not I waited till after the buy backs, so I didnt get that option. If mazda were to re-release the most current J-spec FD again however, Id drop the RX-8 in a heart beat. But with what is currently still out there, I dont think I would. Like I said I still love the car, but I just knew it wouldnt be as easy to make it as fast as compared to the FD. And Im mailny just dissapointed in mazda crapping out on design of the motor and transmission, it could have been so much better. However, everything else on the car minus the OBD2 couldnt have been better :) .

I personally do not see a design flaw with the powertrain of the RX-8.

While I have not taken mine to the dragstrip like some, I am certainly enjoying every speed accelerating opportunity, and running through the gears.

As a matter of fact, lately I have been able to break the tires loose more often. Not sure if the tire rubber is getting stiffer from the cooler weather, or the RENESIS is loosining up some more power, or I am just doing a better job of hooking up the tranny.

I refuse to baby a Sports Car, unless of course it is 20+ years old.

the tranny whine is supposedly normal, so make of it what you will. probably nothign to get this excited over.

simply 'cause Ito broke it doesn't mean that the engine is weak. he's one of the baddest mofo's in the rotary tuning community, this isn't the first engine he's busted up (i'm quite sure).

it's a new engine, and there are so many "maybe's" and "what if's" that you can't start making snap decisions about the reliability of the 13B-MSP from this one failure.

relax.

wakeech, thanks for the snap back to reality. People underestimating mazdas long history of over engineering their parts must be playing havoc with peoples minds.

Originally posted by Crashunit
it shares the same weak tranny as the mita and S15

I'm not so sure the Miata/RX-8's tranny is inherently weak. I was running an FM II turbo Miata with about 230 RWHP and 220 ft lbs. of torque, 12 PSI and 100 octane unleaded, and my tranny held up fine.

Flyin' Miata has probably sold around 75-150 of these turbo kits, or maybe even more (?), and I haven't heard of too many Miata trannies blowing up. (Instead, the diffs can blow on the 1.6 Miatas and wheel hop can kill the diffs on the 1.8s). As far as I can tell, the Miata tranny is quite robust and normally can handle more power than a stock RX-8 could ever dish out.

I think Judge Ito just got a defective car, which is a bummer, but not out of the realm of reason for a new model car with a revised 13B engine.

I'm also curious why you bought an '8 if you are so critical of it. I love mine!

There are a few Miata's running around with 400+ HP and the stock tranny.
At least one full time drag car that I know of still use the stock trans.

The tranny is quite robust.

Originally posted by Zonker04
I'm not so sure the Miata/RX-8's tranny is inherently weak. I was running an FM II turbo Miata with about 230 RWHP and 220 ft lbs. of torque, 12 PSI and 100 octane unleaded, and my tranny held up fine.

Flyin' Miata has probably sold around 75-150 of these turbo kits, or maybe even more (?), and I haven't heard of too many Miata trannies blowing up. (Instead, the diffs can blow on the 1.6 Miatas and wheel hop can kill the diffs on the 1.8s). As far as I can tell, the Miata tranny is quite robust and normally can handle more power than a stock RX-8 could ever dish out.

I think Judge Ito just got a defective car, which is a bummer, but not out of the realm of reason for a new model car with a revised 13B engine.

I'm also curious why you bought an '8 if you are so critical of it. I love mine!

Im critical of it, because cause I really care about it :) . If I didnt care, I wouldnt have voiced my opinion. And about your mita putting out 230 rwhp thru that tranny and diff is exactly what I am talking about. 230 rwhp is not much, My FD put out 350 rwhp at 12 psi on 91 octane, and most FD tranny's can hold up to 450 rwhp fine. Where as I dont see the RX-8 tranny holding more then 300 rwhp without problems. Most Mita's dont put down power like that, and most S15 owners swap out there 6 speed for the older 5 speed once they get over 400 rwhp. They just dont hold up. As for the RX-8 diff. , im not too sure about it yet, but so far Im not too impressed.

Most likely its probably just me tho, since at heart I still think like an RX-7 owner and expect more from the car. If any of you had own an RX-7 like the FD, you would probably know why Im so critical with the RX-8.

Originally posted by rxphink
There are a few Miata's running around with 400+ HP and the stock tranny.
At least one full time drag car that I know of still use the stock trans.

The tranny is quite robust.

Well there are always exceptions, but I wouldnt be suprised if they were rebuilt or reinforced.

Mine has the throw-out bearing noise ("rattle"?) at idle in neutral that goes away when putting the clutch in. Don't think it has a thing to do with apex seals, or 3rd or 4th gear or the rear diff. Have about 9300 miles so far, no tranny problems. Any single tranny could have a problem, but it stands to reason that the harder it's driven and how frequently it will wear any involved component more than 'average' or the norm. And break-down can occur at any time after the damage was initiated - even during normal usage. Think a 84 y/o man having all-night sex w/ a 21 y/o nymph. Then he dies during breakfast the next morning. It wasn't the breakfast that did him in...

Originally posted by Crashunit
Well there are always exceptions, but I wouldnt be suprised if they were rebuilt or reinforced.

I know one of them quite well an it was not reinforced in any way other than a 3 puck clutch and a HD pressure plate.

And my FD was putting out plenty of HP and was quite fast, but I am in no way upset with the RX-8. It rides and handles better than my RX-7 ever did, and I had some awesome suspension components attached to it. The RX-8 is more predictable and definately more tractable. It's amazing what the engineers can do with a bit of R&D. I bet if I upgraded my suspension on the RX-8 as I had on the RX-7 my opinion would change. you cant just throw parts at a car and make it handle better, as I found out. It takes a bit of research and lots of tuning to get the setup right after you change even one simple component.

Originally posted by Crashunit
If any of you had own an RX-7 like the FD, you would probably know why Im so critical with the RX-8.

Uh huh...

I still own an FD (and an FC) and I think my '8 handles as well as the FD does. It's most certainly not as fast and the engine power comes on completely different, but hey - it's not the same car and so I don't expect it to be the same. The brakes rock, the handling is precise and very predictable and it's more comfortable to be in. It doesn't excite me quite as much as driving the FD does, but I enjoy driving it just as much.

So the main reason I'm not critical of the '8 is because I stopped comparing it to the FD, it's not one and I don't expect it to be one. It's a different car and I enjoy driving it as much as the FD but for different reasons.

So there you go.

Simon.

Originally posted by GooOnYou
How many miles did you have on your car when this happened? And how many miles were on it when the seals broke? 3000 miles when the 3rd and 4 gear broke and 3780 miles when the engine let go.

Sounds like Judge got himself a lemon

What I am doing is comparing an old 6 port engines vs the new renesis 6 port engine. The old 6 port engine never had this many failures at the beggining of their sales back in 85 to 91. A matter of fact we still have many second gen.'s running around with original engines and well over 130,000 miles on the engine. My nephew has a 1986 GXL running the original engine that I recently installed an intake,Racing Beat headers and pre-silencer. We took the Rx7 to our local drag strip and beat the living crap out the engine and the car ran 15.3 all day with a rookie driver.

Because the exhaust ports are now located on the side housings instead of the rotor housings, the engine has no overlap(intake and exhaust ports opened at the same time) what Mazda did was increase the intake port opening up to 30% larger since the engine has no overlap. When this is done the SIDE SEALS of the rotors are exposed to the opening and closing of the intake ports and any slight vibration of the rotor could cause the SIDE SEALS to crash right into the closing part of the intake port itself and creat some SIDE SEAL damage and lost of power. Many people with Rx8's are saying that after their engine was replaced, Mazda told them that it was a SIDESEAL problem. A large port could be made, that is not a problem, but careful attention needs to be paid to the closing part of the intake port.

Originally posted by RacerX7FB
Sounds like Judge got himself a lemon Sorry to say but it seems like theres alot of lemons around and I think we could make some lemonade and feel better about the whole situation.

Judge Ito:

I'm sorry to hear about the problems you're having with your car. I am wondering though, do we know for sure how many Renesis engines have failed, and how many 6PI 13b engines in the 2nd gen. RX7's failed?

Forums like these give us a place to immediately report problems with our cars; something we didn't have the luxury of doing back in 1986 to 1991.

Originally posted by rx8daniel
Think a 84 y/o man having all-night sex w/ a 21 y/o nymph. Then he dies during breakfast the next morning. It wasn't the breakfast that did him in...

I sure wish I was to die this way..... :D

I just got the car back. feels back to normal with no diff. noises. Tranny and engine working fine.

Originally posted by Judge Ito
I just got the car back. feels back to normal with no diff. noises. Tranny and engine working fine.

Good... will you have new 1/4 times tomorrow?;)

Judge Ito:

I hope things hold together for you from now on. I know you'll feel better, but we may all feel a little better too!

Originally posted by Rick
Good... will you have new 1/4 times tomorrow?;) I made a decision to still drive the car hard and race it. When something breaks next time I'm not going to take it back for warranty. I'm going to upgrade what ever breaks, Make it stronger. I want to make my Rx8 run 12 seconds all motor and I just realized that the factory equipment is not up to my challenge.

Wow!
You certainly got your RX-8 fixed quickly. How long did the dealership have your car?

Originally posted by Judge Ito
I want to make my Rx8 run 12 seconds all motor

That will be awesome. Good luck

Originally posted by Judge Ito
I made a decision to still drive the car hard and race it. When something breaks next time I'm not going to take it back for warranty. I'm going to upgrade what ever breaks, Make it stronger. I want to make my Rx8 run 12 seconds all motor and I just realized that the factory equipment is not up to my challenge.

maybe this time you should leave the tranny/diff break-in for a few thousand miles before beating the hell out of it...

Just out of curiosity, what type of engine oil were you running in your car? and have you added any tpe of performance parts in your vehicle since you bought??

I'm surprised nobody commented on the video of the judge's car doing it's fascinating burnout with the dealer tags still on it.
There's a difference between driving a vehicle 'hard' and attempting to break stuff.It's unfair IMHO to compare the old 6ports being abused to the brand new Renesis.For one thing the rpms at which the rev limiter comes on are increased.There are more critical things taking place in this zone.I could be wrong but if the older ones were capable of running there you would see similar failures.The judge's car was definitely bouncing off the rev-limiter.
I'm not excusing Mazda who may have more bugs still to be worked out.I don't think those gearbox noises sound normal or acceptable but I'd give them time to get it all sorted.
The cars seem to do what they were designed to do and warranties are not meant to cater to abuse.I'm glad Mazda will not be unfairly burdened with the expense of replacing more of his tortured components.

Doing burn outs, driving an brand new RX8 at over 100 MPH, driving it like there is no tomorrow are just a few of the things brand new rotary owners are doing and expecting the car to last forever...
I guess nobody told about the breaking in time frame, in rotary engine should be taking very seriously as they are very delicate engines.

I swear MAZDA before selling their cars, they should give a Rotary Engine 101 class to all the new owners who come from pistons engines and think they can do anything to their cars and missthreat the poor FE's...Why????Gee...

Originally posted by RX7FD3
Just out of curiosity, what type of oil were you running in your car? and have you added any tpe of performance parts in your vehicle since you bought?? were you abusing the car before letting the engine break in?

Originally posted by pr0ber
maybe this time you should leave the tranny/diff break-in for a few thousand miles before beating the hell out of it... Yes parts need to be broken in for a few different reasons, But like I said, I haven't done anything different that I haven't done to other rotaries that I have build. When I assemble a differential I drive it for about half an hour, let it kool off then another half hour run, change the gear oil and beat the crap out the rear end with no damage. I think Mazda might have changed to a different bearing company and we are starting to see the effects with the tranny noises and the diff. noises.

Originally posted by CERAMICSEAL
I'm surprised nobody commented on the video of the judge's car doing it's fascinating burnout with the dealer tags still on it.
There's a difference between driving a vehicle 'hard' and attempting to break stuff.It's unfair IMHO to compare the old 6ports being abused to the brand new Renesis.For one thing the rpms at which the rev limiter comes on are increased.There are more critical things taking place in this zone.I could be wrong but if the older ones were capable of running there you would see similar failures.The judge's car was definitely bouncing off the rev-limiter.
I'm not excusing Mazda who may have more bugs still to be worked out.I don't think those gearbox noises sound normal or acceptable but I'd give them time to get it all sorted.
The cars seem to do what they were designed to do and warranties are not meant to cater to abuse.I'm glad Mazda will not be unfairly burdened with the expense of replacing more of his tortured components. I agree no more comparisons, it doesn't matter to me anymore. I made my decision to upgrade and modify what ever needs to be done.

Originally posted by RX7FD3
Just out of curiosity, what type of engine oil were you running in your car? and have you added any tpe of performance parts in your vehicle since you bought?? My car is bone stock making 196.5rwhp and ran 14.5 @ 94mph using the original engine oil the car came with.

Originally posted by Judge Ito
My car is bone stock making 196.5rwhp and ran 14.5 @ 94mph using the original engine oil the car came with.

Thats why you blew your engine. Running it a track without even waiting to breaK IN YOUR ENGINE>

Originally posted by RX7FD3
Thats why you blew your engine. Running it a track without even waiting to breaK IN YOUR ENGINE> My engine was fully broken IN when I race it at the drag strip had over 2000miles. It seems like you don't have the slightest Idea who you are talking to. I build and race rotary engines all day. When an engine is properly built no break in is needed(exmaple I'll build a nitrous oxide engine that runs well over 11,000 rpms this engine has no break in and takes everything that we give it and stays together. Mazda builds them correctly but anything could happened in the assembly line. I have taking engines apart with low miles burning coolant. When I tear the original rebuild apart I have found that during assembly by mazda the coolant seals did not seat properly against the rotor housing and side housing. When this happened the coolant seal was crushed and allowed coolant to lean into the combustion chamber. Stuff like this happens back in the assembly line.

Originally posted by Judge Ito
My engine was fully broken IN when I race it at the drag strip had over 2000miles. It seems like you don't have the slightest Idea who you are talking to. I build and race rotary engines all day. When an engine is properly built no break in is needed(exmaple I'll build a nitrous oxide engine that runs well over 11,000 rpms this engine has no break in and takes everything that we give it and stays together. Mazda builds them correctly but anything could happened in the assembly line. I have taking engines apart with low miles burning coolant. When I tear the original rebuild apart I have found that during assembly by mazda the coolant seals did not seat properly against the rotor housing and side housing. When this happened the coolant seal was crushed and allowed coolant to lean into the combustion chamber. Stuff like this happens back in the assembly line.

Damn! So factory is producing some crappy cars. There isnt really way of knowing which ones are the good ones and which ones had issues like your car.
Sorry to hear that about your car dude.

Make that 12 sec car happen.

man he didn't even tell me....... atleast its fixed already

Originally posted by vosko
man he didn't even tell me....... atleast its fixed already between all the work that I have and trying to keep the shop running it slipped my mind. Yes fixed.

Originally posted by Judge Ito
between all the work that I have and trying to keep the shop running it slipped my mind. Yes fixed.

yeah yeah leave me out of the loop!

Judge, i see your point with the side seal failure however there is many 13b owners that have ported out to 30%+ and still dont have trouble. I guess the seals see 2 times as much outside the housing than before. Could the seals be flexing enough during shock to be caught in the ports?

http://www.rx8.co.nz/Rotary/images/renesis08popup.jpg

The seals are not flexing but the rotor itself could slightly vibrate at high rpms. When the rotor vibrates, the sideseal could crash into the upper edge of the port(closing edge) and create some damage. I'm sure Mazda researched the port closing and has it covered, but when some early engine damage is due to sideseal failure it makes me think. Many engines builders including myself have used double sideseal springs behind the sideseal to try and stabilize the rotor at high rpms from moving side to side. I myself have ported large street ports more then 30% intake opening and had great results, but I payed close attention to the edge where the side seal is introduced back into the side housing.

Originally posted by sferrett
Uh huh...

I still own an FD (and an FC) and I think my '8 handles as well as the FD does. It's most certainly not as fast and the engine power comes on completely different, but hey - it's not the same car and so I don't expect it to be the same. The brakes rock, the handling is precise and very predictable and it's more comfortable to be in. It doesn't excite me quite as much as driving the FD does, but I enjoy driving it just as much.

So the main reason I'm not critical of the '8 is because I stopped comparing it to the FD, it's not one and I don't expect it to be one. It's a different car and I enjoy driving it as much as the FD but for different reasons.

So there you go.

Simon.

Very well said! :) I had a BMW 328Ci in 2001 that was much faster than the RX8, had superb road feel, very flat and predictable handling, stability control, awesome brakes, and even a back seat (which was very hard to get into and out of).

I still like the RX8 better, for different reasons. Here are a few:

Design & Aesthetics

1) Its looks
2) The interior space and layout of same
3) The rear doors
4) The lighting - interior blue on the cluster is so cool, the design of the rear taillights, the front headlights
5) Use of the rotor design element

Sportscar-like issues

1) 50:50 weight distribution
2) Great out of the box handling
3) Excellent road feel and connectedness to the highway

Lots of others as well.

im assuming your beamer was stock velocityred, but correct me if im wrong.

i don't think your 2001 328ci was that much faster than your current rx-8. a 5-spd 2002 330ci pulls about 6 flat according to most publications, the 328i has to be slower, which would put it at about the same pace as the rx-8. also, im fairly sure that your rx-8 could outbrake your beamer even though bmw is famous for their strong, has-to-be-german made brakes. not flaming at all, just some comments i had.

Ito knows what he is talking about....and I think I agree that he just got a bad one from the assembly line....

As soon as I get the funds, Im sending my 89 TII to him for a rebuild..:D

I just want to know how to make my 8 as fast as his....:confused:

Thread closed and Judge Ito's user ID were locked at his request. No rules were broken, we did it out of respect for his wishes. End of topic.