Hey, I ran across it today at Mazdatrix.com

http://www.mazdatrix.com/8forcedinduction.htm

The stage 2 (which anyone would want) is running $8K. Pretty steep, I like the kit a lot, it dosen't put the power down low but it seems to be a pretty simplistic and reliable design. Too bad it wasn't around the $5K mark :(

I've seen pretty much the same kit for other vehicles (350Z and Integra) for$6K but I guess not for the RX-8. Good idea but I just don't think it can be competitive at that price.

A centrifugal supercharger is the wrong choice for an engine like the Renesis that has a large dynamic range and a fairly steep HP line.
A centrifugal will simply amplify the slope of the HP line and provide very little power in the lower RPM range.

It should be of concern that the radiator is blocked by the I/C

http://www.mazdatrix.com/8pics/RX8_Cooler.jpg

A centrifugal supercharger is the wrong choice for an engine like the Renesis that has a large dynamic range and a fairly steep HP line.
A centrifugal will simply amplify the slope of the HP line and provide very little power in the lower RPM range.

Not only that but it will more than likely produce LESS power than a factory n/a car up to a certain point. On the Dyno graph provided it looks like that point is ~60-80KPH

I like the mounting location and the fact that it has self-contained oil. I just think it's a good design but you guys are right about the power band. Some people like that though, a huge boost in power at 5-6K rpms, it does keep a pretty linear power curve though. It's probably better for daily driving but it just seems too expensive for the benefits to the renesis. I will say that it tooks to be one of the easiest installs of any FI kit.

I like the mounting location and the fact that it has self-contained oil. I just think it's a good design but you guys are right about the power band. Some people like that though, a huge boost in power at 5-6K rpms, it does keep a pretty linear power curve though. It's probably better for daily driving but it just seems too expensive for the benefits to the renesis. I will say that it tooks to be one of the easiest installs of any FI kit.

I have to disagree with you. I think it would be worse for daily driving. In your lower RPM's you are using the motor to spin the s/c yet you are not receiving any power from it. At that point all you get is a parasitic loss and no gain. A twin screw s/c or appropriately sized turbo will be a better choice on a daily driver.

If it is extreemly efficient from 6-9k this would be a good choice for a track only (or mostly ) car but you could just do a larger turbo for that application as well.

I also don't really understand the implication that this pro charger can somehow deliver more cfm of airflow without increasing the pressure ratio. It somehow defies the laws of physics.

I have to disagree with you. I think it would be worse for daily driving. In your lower RPM's you are using the motor to spin the s/c yet you are not receiving any power from it. At that point all you get is a parasitic loss and no gain. A twin screw s/c or appropriately sized turbo will be a better choice on a daily driver.

If it is extreemly efficient from 6-9k this would be a good choice for a track only (or mostly ) car but you could just do a larger turbo for that application as well.

I also don't really understand the implication that this pro charger can somehow deliver more cfm of airflow without increasing the pressure ratio. It somehow defies the laws of physics.

From the standpoint of less airflow at low rpms would require less fuel. I'm assuming this would result in better fuel efficiency (compared to other FI). I guess for the small passes it wouldn't be good but most of the time you get on the car it's going to be above 5K rpms anyways. (My theroy is if I don't have power down low, I won't speed around and get on it a lot unless I'm down some backroad and really get on it) I agree a larger turbo would put out more power and be cheaper but like I said it's pretty hassle free and easy to install. All in all like I said I think it would be a good deal if the price tag was around $5K. I'm not going to jump on this kit, from the looks of it the hymee or aflow kit will be a better buy.

It should be of concern that the radiator is blocked by the I/C



That IC is barely blocking the ad since it is so small.
My IC completely blocks the rad and my cooling concerns have been mostly caused by total flow through the engine bay, not just the presented area.
In 110°F ambient temps, 6% humidity and full boosted power, cooling is an issue, but addressable.
In most "normal" places, it won't really be a problem if the entire cooling system is addressed as discussed in numerous places on this site.


I also don't really understand the implication that this pro charger can somehow deliver more cfm of airflow without increasing the pressure ratio. It somehow defies the laws of physics.

Its a trick of adiabatic efficiency. The implication is that it is somehow above the nominal 75% or so of a typical turbo.
I don't think this is actually the case, however.

this thing looks very simple and should be easy to install, but am I wrong or does the low end power look worse than a stock rx-8?

also, 247whp for 7k?

this thing looks very simple and should be easy to install, but am I wrong or does the low end power look worse than a stock rx-8?

also, 247whp for 7k?

yes, a stock rx-8 would whoop it's ass under 5k rpm.

first time I am right.....then wtf......... this kit doesn't make sense

yeah, I'm saying "NO" to this kit already. I just dont' see the logic behind such a system on a Rotary! I tried asking these questions at SS but I got the "deer in the headlights" response from the Mazdatrix ppl.

yeah, I'm saying "NO" to this kit already. I just dont' see the logic behind such a system on a Rotary! I tried asking these questions at SS but I got the "deer in the headlights" response from the Mazdatrix ppl.

I'm sure whoever buys one will get the same response if they run into a problem. Does the word "Greddy" come to mind.

I haven't heard anything bad about the Mazdatrix people. Don't put them down unless you have concrete issues to tell us about.

Hell I thought they told me 274 ponies...

With RB race flash or Cobb flash we can get near 225 HP

7k plus install is not worth 20 more HP.

I haven't heard anything bad about the Mazdatrix people. Don't put them down unless you have concrete issues to tell us about.

I'm not putting them down at all. Heck, those guys are only 15 minutes from me and have been great in the past. Just when it came to asking questions at SS....

No one is saying anything bad about Mazdatrix. Centrifugal superchargers on small high revving engines on the other hand...

The 10lb pulley buts down 303whp (stage 2 kit)

I bought a flex plate from them, they were really nice and the guy knows the part number like the back of his hands or something..........

however, this supercharger just doesn't make sense to me.........fail

yeah, you should be able to do 300 on that kit, but it just happens to be 300 whp that aren't as useful as 300 whp on other kits :)

so the stage 2 (8k) for 300whp? where teh dyno....

so the stage 2 (8k) for 300whp? where teh dyno....

it's on 'teh' site.

ok, this one is right up my alley since my last car before the 8 was 1993 mitsubishi 3000GT (SL) .... yes, I waded thru with that car for over 6 years with all the jokes, the continuous beatdowns from 4cyl eclipses/toyota camrys etc etc etc. even a grand am GT schooled me... blah blah, but I did get a centrifugal unit put in my car, granted the 3.0 is big V6 compared to the renesis, but I'd say torque wise they were close as mine was only giving around 170LB... what I had was a total devastation of hope below 3000rpm, car was still as slow as before, but when going after 45-50 I'd get a rush of power that was undescribable, so I understand how this mod works, it's not for low end but will increase your acceleration from a certain point, a twin screw would be better, granted I am comparing two different animals here, but I'd expect this mod to work similar in any situation, besides mine only gave me around an extra 54hp according to dyno in 2001, I was gonna go forged pistons/rods and all of that but then I saw the 8... had to get it, will never go back to FWD, even though I am on my 3rd set of coils on this thing in under 60k miles

A centrifugal supercharger is the wrong choice for an engine like the Renesis that has a large dynamic range and a fairly steep HP line.
A centrifugal will simply amplify the slope of the HP line and provide very little power in the lower RPM range.

Just out of curiosity, isn't the centrifugal supercharger essentially a belt driven turbo? If so, from a theoretical standpoint, wouldn't it be possible to emulate a fast-spooling turbo by manipulating the gear ratio and the wastegate threshold?

10psi dyno shows horsepower always above stock (and thus torque as well). The lower-than-stock low-end torque at ~5K is with the 6psi kit. 8psi dyno doesn't list the stock HP directly, but if you look at that 5K RPM area, it's definitely higher than stock.

One of the Mazdatrix guys (@SevenStock) said that this kit is essentially "invisible." The torque curves are similar to stock, you just have more power. Also he said that if he had to do it again, he could probably install the entire kit in 4 hours (and the install doesn't require lifting the car).

So, a supercharger kit that feels stock, but with more power, with an uncomplicated install, and delivers a 70% increase at 8psi is not something that I would qualify as "fail" or "does not make sense." Plus it's available now.

Lazi and I got them to start this sucker up at SSX.. it is a LOUD kit.. the blowoff is insane

Lazi and I got them to start this sucker up at SSX.. it is a LOUD kit.. the blowoff is insaneI can attest to that... it was also shrill, as shrill as it sounds in the online video (granted, that's with the hood opened).

That's sad...

I had a procharger C-1 on my sentra at 4,5psi I made 240whp and 220ft-lb of torque from 2000rpm-6200 (redline) that was on a mustang dyno, that reads ~10-15% lower than other mustang dynos. So easily 260whp-270whpish on a dynojet.

It also contained many more pieces, and came with EVERYTHING, and was 5K USD.

I'm not sure what's driving the price much higher than that.

Yes prochargers amplify the stock curve, but also gives you much more top end, but it's gradual, it's a very linear powerband, and VERY nice.

I see, the higher price would probably be that this car is very new and everyone's jacking up the price on it

I'm not sure how much the powermod costs, but the cost of fabbing a bracket, buying the procharger at cost, and getting all your IC piping done (including intercooler), injectors, spark plugs, filter, belts, a recirc-bov, lines, wiring, walbro fuel pump, would be no more than ~$3200 USD (even that might be a little high, but the most expensive part should be the procharger which is $2000USD at cost, well something like $1950 USD.

I'm not sure how much the powermod costs, but the cost of fabbing a bracket, buying the procharger at cost, and getting all your IC piping done (including intercooler), injectors, spark plugs, filter, belts, a recirc-bov, lines, wiring, walbro fuel pump, would be no more than ~$3200 USD (even that might be a little high, but the most expensive part should be the procharger which is $2000USD at cost, well something like $1950 USD.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, there must be a hell of a mark-up on this kit. I think the powermod is only $600-700, not sure, but I thought I saw it somewhere for that price.

Just out of curiosity, isn't the centrifugal supercharger essentially a belt driven turbo? If so, from a theoretical standpoint, wouldn't it be possible to emulate a fast-spooling turbo by manipulating the gear ratio and the wastegate threshold?

You could put on a much smaller pulley and bascially overboost the system...but once you hit that peak X pressure ratio, you'd have to put in a pop off valve to vent the excess...kind of complicated, imo.

Also looking through some dyno's of stock/minor bolt ons the RX8 seems to make about 120-125whp @ 5K rpms, the Procharged @ 10psi is making about 145whp. So it appears that you do get a small improvement under the peak area.

Also looking through some dyno's of stock/minor bolt ons the RX8 seems to make about 120-125whp @ 5K rpms, the Procharged @ 10psi is making about 145whp. So it appears that you do get a small improvement under the peak area.Keep in mind that those dynos are DynoDynamics dynos, which read low (notice stock 8's dynoing in at ~160whp)

Keep in mind that those dynos are DynoDynamics dynos, which read low (notice stock 8's dynoing in at ~160whp)

Yeah that's a strange power curve for a stock RX8, guess we will see a better objective dyno when someone installs the kit. I don't doubt the 303WHP @ 10psi.

You could put on a much smaller pulley and bascially overboost the system...but once you hit that peak X pressure ratio, you'd have to put in a pop off valve to vent the excess...kind of complicated, imo.

That won't work. First off consider the internal gearing in the supercharger. You have to spin it a whole lot faster to get appreciable boost down low. This would mean you overspin it up top. If you set it up so you reach the superchargers max rated speed at engien redline and bleed off boost if it's too high, you've got another problem. Heat. It doesn't matter if you bleed off pressure or not. You had to compress the air in the firstplace which heats it up. You may get rid of excess pressure but you won't get rid of the heat.

That won't work. First off consider the internal gearing in the supercharger. You have to spin it a whole lot faster to get appreciable boost down low. This would mean you overspin it up top. If you set it up so you reach the superchargers max rated speed at engien redline and bleed off boost if it's too high, you've got another problem. Heat. It doesn't matter if you bleed off pressure or not. You had to compress the air in the firstplace which heats it up. You may get rid of excess pressure but you won't get rid of the heat.

Its not ideal by any means but I've seen it done on other motors. A wastegate was used instead of a pop off valve though.

That won't work. First off consider the internal gearing in the supercharger. You have to spin it a whole lot faster to get appreciable boost down low. This would mean you overspin it up top. If you set it up so you reach the superchargers max rated speed at engien redline and bleed off boost if it's too high, you've got another problem. Heat. It doesn't matter if you bleed off pressure or not. You had to compress the air in the firstplace which heats it up. You may get rid of excess pressure but you won't get rid of the heat.

That makes sense, regarding the excess speed.

It momentarily escaped me at the time of postulation that with turbos you can control the incoming exhaust to limit the speed (boost). That's not the case with a belt driven impeller. I was concerned more about incoming charge air to the engine and less about the turbine's max rated speed.

Then it sounds like the centrifugal supercharger can benefit from variable vanes for our application huh? :)

Thanks for the explanation.

Actually I think the stock power band is perfect, and something that only enhances it further would be a benefit.

As a previous pro charger owner, I can attest without a doubt that the first thing you will notice when putting it on is the throttle response is a little slower due to the extra pully/gears you need to turn. But honestly once you are moving, and you romp on the gas, it's completely different, you don't' really care, once you are in boost it's fast.

Personally I think it's pointless to have 6.5 psi of boost on a procharger over 9000 rpm range, as it'll do 6.5 at 9000 and 0 at 0 and it's a linear curve, I would expect at least 10-12 psi for 'good' performance to fatten up the power band. Yes I know what I'm saying is simplistic, sorry.

Vortech blowers are not linear.

Centrifugal superchargers are exponential.
Technically, so are turbos, but since their drive speed is tied to load and not RPM, they end up behaving in a linear fashion.

centrifugal superchargers have always been ridiculed (i'm not a gigantic fan of them either)... but the fact of the matter is if you keep the revs up (and all of us have no problem with that when we are trying to have fun), they can add a whole lot of bang for your buck and are great for drag racing since you get awesome top end and still be able to launch the car easily

centrifugal superchargers have always been ridiculed (i'm not a gigantic fan of them either)... but the fact of the matter is if you keep the revs up (and all of us have no problem with that when we are trying to have fun), they can add a whole lot of bang for your buck and are great for drag racing since you get awesome top end and still be able to launch the car easily

centrifugal blowers are great for high displacement motors that already make a good amount of torque down low in N/A form. That should be self evident.

Centrifugal superchargers are exponential.
Technically, so are turbos, but since their drive speed is tied to load and not RPM, they end up behaving in a linear fashion.

Exactly :)

Here is a dyno for my old car @ 4.5 psi on a Pro charger PSC-1

http://members.shaw.ca/daemos-/4.5psidynochart.jpg

That won't work. First off consider the internal gearing in the supercharger. You have to spin it a whole lot faster to get appreciable boost down low. This would mean you overspin it up top. If you set it up so you reach the superchargers max rated speed at engien redline and bleed off boost if it's too high, you've got another problem. Heat. It doesn't matter if you bleed off pressure or not. You had to compress the air in the firstplace which heats it up. You may get rid of excess pressure but you won't get rid of the heat.

Yes, it will work. The idea is to overspin it up top, but if you have sized the SC appropriately to handle the excess boost, and maybe even stay within good efficiency than that's not an issue. I've seen it in person on a Mustang a few years back. Naturally you are generating more heat because you're compressing more air - so get a larger intercooler, and play with the engine's timing.

I'm not claiming by any means that I'd do it, or even that I like the idea. Simply that I've seen it performed effectively. Using the pop off valve basically as a wastegate seemed way too risky to me.

I joined so i can post on this and another thread about this SC kit and FI in general on the renesis.

You guys with all your collective knowledge, just keep going in circles. :banghead:

There is a reason no other Jap tune house has not released a serious turbo kit, appart from the "excuse for a turbo kit" GReddy makes.

BECAUSE IT IS INEFICIENT WITH THE RENESIS ENGINE. MAZDA engineers said it them selves, turbos are a waste of time. They engineered the damn thing, im sure they know.

How many turbo chargerd 600HP renesis engined RX8's are there out there > 0
geeeeee i wonder why ?

There are many Series 6 13B conversions in RX8 pumping big power. Yes also the nutters that some how managed to shoe horn a 20B in one.

I'm blown away that intelligent people can't see that the ProCharged kit is the best on the market. It's the only one that keeps making power to 9,000 RPM. And is reliable. And if you think it's too expensive, then just buy your self a cat back system that does nothing for your power out put, BUT is sure sounds COOL.

Nitrous is easiest.

The whole business of i want more torque down low, buy a GTO. 5.7 liters should make you happy. Man the thing I love about the renesis is the fact that it revs to 9,000. And the powerband is 5-9k, what other car on the planet has a powerband of 4000RPM, NONE that i know of.

I know i'm going to rub some people up the wrong way, but that is life. Don't be too hard on me. :)

There is a reason no other Jap tune house has not released a serious turbo kit, appart from the "excuse for a turbo kit" GReddy makes.

BECAUSE IT IS INEFICIENT WITH THE RENESIS ENGINE. MAZDA engineers said it them selves, turbos are a waste of time. They engineered the damn thing, im sure they know.

How many turbo chargerd 600HP renesis engined RX8's are there out there > 0
geeeeee i wonder why ?

I'm blown away that intelligent people can't see that the ProCharged kit is the best on the market. It's the only one that keeps making power to 9,000 RPM. And is reliable. And if you think it's too expensive, then just buy your self a cat back system that does nothing for your power out put, BUT is sure sounds COOL.

Thanks for the education professor. Everything you wrote that I kept above is wrong or inaccurate.

Thanks for the education professor. Everything you wrote that I kept above is wrong or inaccurate.

Please correct me.

Also would love you too show me a 600HP turbo Renesis engine. Id consider changing my current RX8 setup if i can make 600Hp all day.

No need to. The information to explain why your thoughts are inaccurate, or misguided, are everywhere on this forum.

And 600hp "all day" in a 2 rotor...right. I've seen 600+hp two rotors, there is nothing "all day" about them.

Please correct me.

Also would love you too show me a 600HP turbo Renesis engine. Id consider changing my current RX8 setup if i can make 600Hp all day.

Yes, actually he is right, you're basically wrong on all counts. Rather than trying to reexplain it, you should do some reading up.

Please correct me.

Also would love you too show me a 600HP turbo Renesis engine. Id consider changing my current RX8 setup if i can make 600Hp all day.

Please show me a 600hp Procharged Renesis.

I would also like to see a turbo charged car that makes less than stock power anywhere in the power band on any amount of boost.

Yes, it will work. The idea is to overspin it up top, but if you have sized the SC appropriately to handle the excess boost, and maybe even stay within good efficiency than that's not an issue. I've seen it in person on a Mustang a few years back. Naturally you are generating more heat because you're compressing more air - so get a larger intercooler, and play with the engine's timing.

I'm not claiming by any means that I'd do it, or even that I like the idea. Simply that I've seen it performed effectively. Using the pop off valve basically as a wastegate seemed way too risky to me.

No it will not work. Not well enough to justify it. You do NOT want to overspin the blower. You will absolutely destroy your bearings. On top of that, you may as well run a blowtorch through your intake as well as the heat generated will be so hot that even a roots blower would seem like a refrigerator by comparison at that point. How is that a good thing? You really want to compensate for that with a larger intercooler? That's a bandaid solution at best. It would be far better to just use something other than a ghetto rigged centrifugal setup that is sized properly. You'll walk all over this all day every day. Do it properly. Don't rig it just for the sake of using a centrifugal. They are pure and simple crap superchargers for small high revving engines. It is physically impossible to change that fact. That's just the way it is.

You can not size it properly down low and then still have any advantage up top. The internal gearing is too extreme. You absolutely have to size it for max efficiency up top and take what it gives you. Centrifugals work one way and one way only in regards to sizing and gearing. If you don't want it to be efficient up top then you should lower your rev limit to account for this. If you try to size it for more flow at lower rpm's, you'll just run into surge issues. It won't work. The 2nd generation RX-7 used to have a supercharger kit for it that used a Paxton Novi 2000 supercharger. That is a supercharger that has the ability to flow enough air for hundreds and hundreds of horsepower yet on the RX-7 the best anyone could get was about 220 rwhp. That's it. It was in surge through the entire rpm range. The only way you can change that is to redesign the impeller. Waste of time.

Using what some Mustang owner ghetto rigged on his car isn't exactly a credible argument in this setup's favor. You may as well have told me that Billy Bob once raced his trailer home in a figure 8 destruction derby and therefore it's a fantastic setup to run at the track. There are far more terrible setups out there than there are good ones.

I understand what you are saying and in theory it would seem to be possible. It just isn't from any usable standpoint.

Using what some Mustang owner ghetto rigged on his car isn't exactly a credible argument in this setups favor. You may as well have told me that Billy Bob once raced his trailer home in a figure 8 destruction derby and therefore it's a fantastic setup to run at the track. There are far too many terrible setups out there than there are good ones.

I understand what you are saying and in theory it would seem to be possible. It just isn't from any usable standpoint.

Ok, that's pretty funny.:lol2:

As I wrote before, I wouldn't think of it myself, but again have seen it done to some degree of success. I saw the car drive around, and heard the blower going - that was about it. As far as it's practicality, using a pop-off valve like a wastegate was enough to convince me otherwise.

No it will not work. Not well enough to justify it. You do NOT want to overspin the blower. You will absolutely destroy your bearings. On top of that, you may as well run a blowtorch through your intake as well as the heat generated will be so hot that even a roots blower would seem like a refrigerator by comparison at that point. How is that a good thing? You really want to compensate for that with a larger intercooler? That's a bandaid solution at best. It would be far better to just use something other than a ghetto rigged centrifugal setup that is sized properly. You'll walk all over this all day every day. Do it properly. Don't rig it just for the sake of using a centrifugal. They are pure and simple crap superchargers for small high revving engines. It is physically impossible to change that fact. That's just the way it is.

You can not size it properly down low and then still have any advantage up top. The internal gearing is too extreme. You absolutely have to size it for max efficiency up top and take what it gives you. Centrigugals work one way and one way only in regards to sizing and gearing. If you don't want it to be efficient up top then you should lower your rev limit to account for this. If you try to size it for more flow at lower rpm's, you'll just run into surge issues. It won't work. The 2nd generation RX-7 used to have a supercharger kit for it that used a Paxton Novi 2000 supercharger. That is a supercharger that has the ability to flow enough air for hundreds and hundreds of horsepower yet on the RX-7 the best anyone could get was about 220 rwhp. That's it. It was in surge through the entire rpm range. The only way you can change that is to redesign the impeller. Waste of time.

Using what some Mustang owner ghetto rigged on his car isn't exactly a credible argument in this setups favor. You may as well have told me that Billy Bob once raced his trailer home in a figure 8 destruction derby and therefore it's a fantastic setup to run at the track. There are far too many terrible setups out there than there are good ones.

I understand what you are saying and in theory it would seem to be possible. It just isn't from any usable standpoint.

I think we are all in agreement that it is not a wise idea. The fact remains that this type of setup is used and has worked before.

I also think if you are using a procharger, sizing it for production down low is stupid, so throw that out of the equation. Size it to deliver 60lbs on the top end and waste gate it down to 45-ish then spin the thing as fast as the bearings will reliably allow to make up for its low end deficiencies.

It's far from ideal and would never recommend it to anyone but it could be and has been done.

I joined so i can post on this and another thread about this SC kit and FI in general on the renesis.

You guys with all your collective knowledge, just keep going in circles. :banghead:

There is a reason no other Jap tune house has not released a serious turbo kit, appart from the "excuse for a turbo kit" GReddy makes.

BECAUSE IT IS INEFICIENT WITH THE RENESIS ENGINE. MAZDA engineers said it them selves, turbos are a waste of time. They engineered the damn thing, im sure they know.

How many turbo chargerd 600HP renesis engined RX8's are there out there > 0
geeeeee i wonder why ?

There are many Series 6 13B conversions in RX8 pumping big power. Yes also the nutters that some how managed to shoe horn a 20B in one.

I'm blown away that intelligent people can't see that the ProCharged kit is the best on the market. It's the only one that keeps making power to 9,000 RPM. And is reliable. And if you think it's too expensive, then just buy your self a cat back system that does nothing for your power out put, BUT is sure sounds COOL.

Nitrous is easiest.

The whole business of i want more torque down low, buy a GTO. 5.7 liters should make you happy. Man the thing I love about the renesis is the fact that it revs to 9,000. And the powerband is 5-9k, what other car on the planet has a powerband of 4000RPM, NONE that i know of.

I know i'm going to rub some people up the wrong way, but that is life. Don't be too hard on me. :)

Yeah I'm pretty sure there are a few turbo kits with higher output and a low price that run good. I like the kit but I don't want to pay $3-4K extra dollars for it to be in one pretty box. R&D, I just don't want to pay for that, they say over "100k" miles. I use to sell intakes and downpipes for RX7s and said the same shit, it wasn't true haha. I'd buy the kit for $5k!

You guys with all your collective knowledge, just keep going in circles. :banghead:

No we aren't. It's called debating a topic. That's how people learn.

There is a reason no other Jap tune house has not released a serious turbo kit, appart from the "excuse for a turbo kit" GReddy makes.

BECAUSE IT IS INEFICIENT WITH THE RENESIS ENGINE. MAZDA engineers said it them selves, turbos are a waste of time. They engineered the damn thing, im sure they know.

Which engineer do you know at Mazda? Give me a name and we'll ask him. Keep in mind several of us see the top rotary engineer every year. Turbos are not a waste of time on a rotary. Far from it. Rotaries respond very well to turbos. That's why they made turbo rotaries for over 20 years. If it was a waste of time, they'd have given up pretty quickly. The reason why they aren't using turbos now is twofold. The first is that they have advanced the engine enough without turbos to make the power they want. It doesn't mean it's the power level that everyone else wants of course. The second reason is that the 3rd generation RX-7 had an extremely unreliable track record. This was due to shortcuts in cooling design not to mention an overly complex twin turbo system that used 70+ vacuum lines and small turbos that spun up to 150,000 rpm at times. This was a design error. It had nothing to do with the fact that the engine itself does or does not like boost. It loves it but like any engine, if the entire system was designed like crap, reliability will suffer too. I assure you, they do know this.

How many turbocharged 600HP renesis engined RX8's are there out there > 0 geeeeee i wonder why?

There are many Series 6 13B conversions in RX8 pumping big power. Yes also the nutters that some how managed to shoe horn a 20B in one.

Wonder no longer. Here's your answer! HIGH COMPRESSION! How many 10:1 compression 600hp 13B's do you see out there. Of the 600 hp engines you do see, what type of fuel are they running. NONE of them is running pump gas. How can you lower the compression on a Renesis since there are no other rotors that can be used?

I'm blown away that intelligent people can't see that the ProCharged kit is the best on the market. It's the only one that keeps making power to 9,000 RPM. And is reliable. And if you think it's too expensive, then just buy your self a cat back system that does nothing for your power out put, BUT is sure sounds COOL.

I'm blown away that an intelligent person would think a centrifugal blower is a good match for a small high revving engine. It's just about the single WORST option out there in terms of average power. A turbo system designed to provide good boost at 9000 rpm would STILL make more power everywhere else in the powerband than a centrifugal supercharger does and it doesn't have to cost more to do it.

Nitrous is easiest.

Nitrous is cheapest up front. In the longterm just remember that nitrous costs money. Air is free. Nitrous still needs to have some form of tuning but with the nitrous computers out there today I will agree that it doesn't have to be difficult to get more power with it. Show me a 600hp rotary running on nitrous!

The whole business of i want more torque down low, buy a GTO. 5.7 liters should make you happy. Man the thing I love about the renesis is the fact that it revs to 9,000. And the powerband is 5-9k, what other car on the planet has a powerband of 4000RPM, NONE that i know of.

The Renesis is a great engine in terms of high powerband. As a small engine it needs to be higher in the powerband. Good port timing and intake design have allowed it to have a wide powerband. Many new engines today have a flat torque curve now though due to good design. That's engine evolution. There's nothing wrong with wanting more power down low on a small engine. If you are going to install a boost device that makes more power up top, why not just install one that also makes more power down low? That's a pretty good use of investment if you ask me. If low end doesn't matter at all, why not just idle the engine at 5000 rpm? F1 engines idle higher than that and they don't care about low end either.


I know i'm going to rub some people up the wrong way, but that is life. Don't be too hard on me. :)

You aren't rubbing me the wrong way. Im just pointing out all of the flaws in your logic.

I think we are all in agreement that it is not a wise idea. The fact remains that this type of setup is used and has worked before.

I also think if you are using a procharger, sizing it for production down low is stupid, so throw that out of the equation. Size it to deliver 60lbs on the top end and waste gate it down to 45-ish then spin the thing as fast as the bearings will reliably allow to make up for its low end deficiencies.

It's far from ideal and would never recommend it to anyone but it could be and has been done.

Just because it HAS worked before doesn't mean it worked good.

If you design it to supply 60 psi up top, it will surge down low. Now you have no efficiency advantage anywhere.

Yes it CAN be done. It can't be done well and this means there is zero advantage to using it over any other system design.

Just because it HAS worked before doesn't mean it worked good.

If you design it to supply 60 psi up top, it will surge down low. Now you have no efficiency advantage anywhere.

Yes it CAN be done. It can't be done well and this means there is zero advantage to using it over any other system design.

Agreed.

But since when has something being the worst possible option stopped some people from using it anyway?

Very true!

If this kit was 1/2 the price I would buy it before I would get the Greddy turbo - even knowing that it has big shortcomings at low rpm .....
Why - its good quality ,it is easy to fit ,it will last ,my motor will last and it has the bling factor .

If this kit was 1/2 the price I would buy it before I would get the Greddy turbo - even knowing that it has big shortcomings at low rpm .....
Why - its good quality ,it is easy to fit ,it will last ,my motor will last and it has the bling factor .

if I sold you a chromed dog turd, you'd also buy that before buying the greddy. So that isn't saying much :P

If this kit was 1/2 the price I would buy it before I would get the Greddy turbo - even knowing that it has big shortcomings at low rpm .....
Why - its good quality ,it is easy to fit ,it will last ,my motor will last and it has the bling factor .

I agree! Very easy install, self-contained oil, reliable set-up, great mounting location, great power (top end), and it seems to be reliable on other applications. But the bottom line as said is just the price. I know other kits are better but this seems to save a lot of headaches, if it were $4-5K it would be a good buy!

^ really.... how many of you REALLY think you'd be happy with something that makes less power than stock until 5,000 rpm, and no real power increase over a stock car till it's over 6,000 rpm?

^ really.... how many of you REALLY think you'd be happy with something that makes less power than stock until 5,000 rpm, and no real power increase over a stock car till it's over 6,000 rpm?

For a real track junkie...not too much of an issue. Then again, I'm a budding track junkie and I wouldn't tolerate that since I drive the RX-8 every day.

^ really.... how many of you REALLY think you'd be happy with something that makes less power than stock until 5,000 rpm, and no real power increase over a stock car till it's over 6,000 rpm?only the 6psi kit makes less power than stock until 5K.

if I sold you a chromed dog turd, you'd also buy that before buying the greddy. So that isn't saying much :P

correct - where can I get one of those chromed dog turds ?

^ really.... how many of you REALLY think you'd be happy with something that makes less power than stock until 5,000 rpm, and no real power increase over a stock car till it's over 6,000 rpm?

You miss the fact that there have been several reports from people who have actually driven it who could not notice any difference at all down low - not exactly a problem . I think most would agree that it's not the optimum solution - all I was saying was that at the right price it would be worth having for a lot of people .

Just for the sake of argument lets say we were running one at 6 psi. If in fact it doesn't make anymore power than stock (less) until 5000 rpm, how many people here daily drive and shift higher than that? I guarantee that it's very few. Now saying that, in normal everyday driving you are getting no benefit. In fact you are losing power and gas mileage. I know there are some that don't mind this and that's their choice. However if I were going to spend thousands of dollars on an upgrade for my car, I'd want something that I notice all the time. I want a forced induction kit that feels like I've always got a bigger motor under the hood. If my gas mileage is going to suffer, I want the powergain to show for it. A twin screw supercharger could kill this everywhere in the powerband and match it up top. I just don't see the argument for not using one as opposed to a centrifugal.

like I said - if it were cheap enough .... It's not cheap so I have agree with rg and mysql

Here is my 2 cents about the DNA/Mazdatrix procharger kit.
$8000 is a little high but the parts are expensive, a c-2 blower is $2500, a powermod is $800, injectors $300, headers $700, so $3700 for an intercooler piping and brackets and R&D. I would like to see the price come down by about $1000.

There seems to be alot of talk about the lack of low end power. I have talked to the DNA techs, procharger techs and procharger users. Everyone agrees that at 2psi+ the engine will make more power then the blower will steel. Also, under normal driving conditions, the procharger should not drasticly decrease fuel millage. The parasitic load on the procharger is very low and the boost increases the efficency of the engine and therfore yields almost no change in fuel economy. Under identical driving conditions, I would expect to see a 1 MPG maybe 2 MPG decrease which is consistant with all the mustang/camaro procharger users I have talked to.

I do not agree/trust with the dyno comparision charts shown. If you look at the 303HP 10PSI chart on the mazdatrix and dna websites it shows 100HP at 4K rpm not 4700 like the dyno comparision thread. Also the dyno charts were with a australian RX8 which makes less power stock, I am not sure if it matters once a vehicle is boosted but I am waiting for mazdatrix to make there own dyno runs.

I think you could safely run this kit at 14-16PSI. It has been doen with turbo's and the procharger runs much cooler so it should not be a problem. If you ran 16 PSI I think this kit would start making serious power at 3500-4000 RPM at probably get to 375-400HP.

Ultimately it comes down to performance and reliability. I think everyone agrees that the kit should be reliable but before we can judge the kit on performance we need to see dyno charts from mazdatrix. The charts they show on the website are from DNA and only up to 10PSI.

I think that this kit has its pros and cons. I am waiting for all the facts before I make up my mind.

Here is my 2 cents about the DNA/Mazdatrix procharger kit.
$8000 is a little high but the parts are expensive, a c-2 blower is $2500, a powermod is $800, injectors $300, headers $700, so $3700 for an intercooler piping and brackets and R&D. I would like to see the price come down by about $1000.


The wholesale cost of a procharger is dirt cheap. Compare it to a twin screw, they are not even playing the same game let alone in the same ballpark.

There seems to be alot of talk about the lack of low end power. I have talked to the DNA techs, procharger techs and procharger users. Everyone agrees that at 2psi+ the engine will make more power then the blower will steel. Also, under normal driving conditions, the procharger should not drasticly decrease fuel millage. The parasitic load on the procharger is very low and the boost increases the efficency of the engine and therfore yields almost no change in fuel economy. Under identical driving conditions, I would expect to see a 1 MPG maybe 2 MPG decrease which is consistant with all the mustang/camaro procharger users I have talked to.


You apparently don't know how a centrifugal blower works.



I think you could safely run this kit at 14-16PSI. It has been doen with turbo's and the procharger runs much cooler so it should not be a problem. If you ran 16 PSI I think this kit would start making serious power at 3500-4000 RPM at probably get to 375-400HP.




16 psi....and 400whp. yea, ok.

do you know what the static compression of this motor is?
have you looked at the compressor maps for this blower compared to the lyshom units?
Have you seen what kind of parasytic drag is created by spinning this blower at that speed?


obviously not.

Ultimately it comes down to performance and reliability. I think everyone agrees that the kit should be reliable but before we can judge the kit on performance we need to see dyno charts from mazdatrix. The charts they show on the website are from DNA and only up to 10PSI.



There is a reason for that. And its the same reason there are no other kits on the markt that are going to go beyond 12psi without auxiliary injection.

the more boost you run at the red-line with a centrifugal the better. it will improve the lower rpm directly. although they are defiantly better with low rpm range cars. you can always gear a centrifugal SC to hit the same max boost lower in the rpm range 8-8.5k and use another rev limit. this would improve the boost threshold.

the over-spinning argument is crap. fit a bigger SC that can handle the flow/PR at the rpm.

over-heat the air? only if you have chosen the wrong SC and your pushing it off the map.

isn't surge a light throttle issue? and moving the throttle body is the solution?

The c-2 has a max out-put of 1100CFM and 24PSI, correct me if I am wrong but that should be more then enough for the RX8.

Can an turbo RX8 handle 12PSI? If so, a procharger can run 14PSI-16PSI (No where near max PSI) because the inlet temp is much cooler.

I do not think you are going to over spin a c-2 at 14-16PSI the question is what other upgrades must you do to handle the power. Can someone explain why they think a c-2 is going to produce too much heat at 14-16 PSI? It will still be much cooler then a turbo at 12PSI.

Who actualy know what the parasytic drag of a c-2 compressor is? I have tried to find the statistics but the best I can come up with is that a centrifical supercharger has less drag then positive displacement supercharger.

I will say it again, Ultimately it comes down to performance and reliability. You must look at what you want your car to do. For me, I want more power, but if I can not take my car to the track because it overheats then it is not worth it for me. The astralians have been road racing there DNA equiped RX8's and I have heard about no problems, that is why this kit appeals to me.

I still don't think the overspinning thing is setting in. If you spin it to provide good boost down low, due to the internal gearing and the rate at which boost rises with rpm (it isn't linear), you'll be WAY high in boost up top. Then to limit the amount of boost you want to bleed off pressure to bring it back down to a lower level? If you spin it to give 15 psi of boost at max rpm but then bleed off pressure to hold boost at lets say 8 psi, you do have 8 psi but at the air temperature of 15 psi out of the blower. This is far less efficient than 8 psi out of the blower without bleeding it off. The efficiency would be bad enough that now you may as well use a roots blower with no intercooler. Why would you do that? Then you want to compensate for this with better intercooling? Come on! How about better intercooling with a properly designed system.

I guarantee that anyone that does this type of setup, I can beat with almost any other alternative at less boost. Now why is that a good idea again? Get over the centrifugal crap. They only belong on large engines that have lower redlines. That's what they match well to. A turbo can be made to match up with any engine and have a nice powerband so can other forms of supercharging. This particular type is just terrible for a small high revving engine. Don't get caught up on peak numbers on a dyno. That's great for selling product but not too useful in the real world.

I agree the bleeding off of boost is a band-aid fix. it will heat the air and would get to a point very quickly where it isn't worth the power loss at high rpm.

still there is an argument for a centrifugal set-up even if it isn't the same as a PD sc or turbo.

A centrifugal SC will deliver more power up to than a PD SC. just look at the peitit. great down low but pathetic up top.

it will do the same as a turbo up top if not better and can rev to the limit not a cut back level like the turbo kits.

it's delivery will be smooth and predictable akin to the mazda engineering ideals of why they left the rx-8 NA in the first place.

while the DNA sc may not be bang for your buck a centrifugal sc isn't so bad if you understand what you will get. don't expect the world but you will get a motor that feels more powerful than std at mid to high revs.

Don't judge a pd blower solely on Petit's kit. I have my opinion of it but needless to say it's not the be all end of of PD supercharger kits and wasn't meant to be. My money would say the DNA will have nothing on Hymee's when it gets done. If it does it'll only be on the extreme top end right before the shift point which would be irrelevant as it would be staring at tail lights long before then anyways. A centrifugal has NO business being on a small high revving engine when there is another alternative available. DNA couldn't convince me of it and neither could a ride in one. I'd basically say that was fun but next time use something better and I'd make no reservations of telling that to the creator. That's the whole truth and nothing but the truth. A centrifugal can never get cheap enough (free) to justify it's existence on a small high revving engine. IF you could somehow find a race series that only allowed centrifugal supercahrgers and nothing else, then it would be viable.

so just so i'm 100% sure here RG - the Centrifugal SC would not be your first choice for the RX8 ? :lol2:

Don't judge a pd blower solely on Petit's kit. I have my opinion of it but needless to say it's not the be all end of of PD supercharger kits and wasn't meant to be. My money would say the DNA will have nothing on Hymee's when it gets done. If it does it'll only be on the extreme top end right before the shift point which would be irrelevant as it would be staring at tail lights long before then anyways. A centrifugal has NO business being on a small high revving engine when there is another alternative available. DNA couldn't convince me of it and neither could a ride in one. I'd basically say that was fun but next time use something better and I'd make no reservations of telling that to the creator. That's the whole truth and nothing but the truth. A centrifugal can never get cheap enough (free) to justify it's existence on a small high revving engine. IF you could somehow find a race series that only allowed centrifugal supercahrgers and nothing else, then it would be viable.

I guess you should add a T-70 to the list of no business on a small, high reving engine. It produces the bulk of it's power up top. However is used commonly amoung rotaries, I think a GT-35R would be a great turbo for this car but it seems to me that the Procharger kit makes power like a huge turbo, a lot but all up top. I think 303WHP has business being on a 1.3 renesis, however for the sake of Bob Barker, the price is wrong.

Don't judge a pd blower solely on Petit's kit. I have my opinion of it but needless to say it's not the be all end of of PD supercharger kits and wasn't meant to be. My money would say the DNA will have nothing on Hymee's when it gets done. If it does it'll only be on the extreme top end right before the shift point which would be irrelevant as it would be staring at tail lights long before then anyways. A centrifugal has NO business being on a small high revving engine when there is another alternative available. DNA couldn't convince me of it and neither could a ride in one. I'd basically say that was fun but next time use something better and I'd make no reservations of telling that to the creator. That's the whole truth and nothing but the truth. A centrifugal can never get cheap enough (free) to justify it's existence on a small high revving engine. IF you could somehow find a race series that only allowed centrifugal supercahrgers and nothing else, then it would be viable.

I think any of the DP SC's are going to disappoint up top. they heat the air more than a centrifugal compressor (turbo or sc) so at the same psi your going to have less mass flow.

if you set a centrifugal sc to peek at 8.5k rpm like all the turbos you would get a better set-up IMO.

WOW

Rotarygod im prety sure if you read back, that nowhere did i say that turbos are no good on the rotary engine. ONLY on the RENESIS !!!!!! Type less and READ more.
Also the fact that you bag centrifugal superchargers for rotary engines makes question your understanding of thr RENESIS and forced induction in general. An interesting bit of data on a PD SC is the temp curve on the compressor maps, look up the Lysholm/Autorotor data. The temp is very important because the screws of the SC heat up, expand and rub. AND THIS IS A FACT, just ask any drag racer using Autorotor, Whipple or Lysholm. And they dont like the high revs due to this fact. Not to mention the high inlet temps. So the only sensible option for a small capacity high reving engine that a turbo is not suitable for, is a centrifugal SC.

Reading back through all the related posts, the whole problem here appears that mysql101 fuddged the dyno graphs, and appears to have no idea of how much injustice he has done to the SC kit. I can guarantee that at no point does the engine make less power than standard, that just shows me how little you guys understand on how a chassis dyno works and the effect of ramp rates. Any engine that has the pumping losses eliminated, by a forced induction system, at the very low RPM's will make more power than NA. You dont need positive manifold pressure to make some power, you can just reduce the vacuume at low RPM. An NA engine is an air compressor in simple terms, it has to work to ingest the greatest volume of air to compress it with the fuel mixture. You make it easier for the engine to breath at low RPM, you make power, especially if your engine has port timing with zero degrees of overlap. Where you CAN NOT take advantage of cylinder/rotor scavenge.

The Hymee kit will never come close to the procharger kit, because the PD is no good on a rotary, many have tried from street cars to drag cars and failed. This is not rocket science guys. This is all very simple, you do your calculations on making a match up of SC/turbo, you figure out what engine management you will use, you bolt it all up and see where you are. Many iterations and design changes latter you come up with the best option, it may be a comprimise. But in simple terms, it either works or NOT. I read that the DNA/Rotormaster had a turbo kit at tried different turbo configs, and in the end they went with the procharger. Hmmmm im thinking that is the case becasue it worked the BEST !!!!! I may be guessing here, but surley if the turbo kit was cheaper and worked the best they would be selling them. They would be crazy not too.

If the PD SC would have worked, Im sure that with a Motec and all the other gear and knowledge base, that Hymee would have got it up and running. I take my hat off to them for trying because that is the frist step.

The Pettit kit is in the same books, these people have the resources and the knowhow to make it work. But it dont look all that good to me. The procharger kit is the only one that makes power all the way to 9k, as they ALL should. Because that is how the Mazda engineers intended the engine to behave.

Its good to see that there are some sensible people on this forum.

WOW

Rotarygod im prety sure if you read back, that nowhere did i say that turbos are no good on the rotary engine. ONLY on the RENESIS !!!!!! Type less and READ more.
Also the fact that you bag centrifugal superchargers for rotary engines makes question your understanding of thr RENESIS and forced induction in general. An interesting bit of data on a PD SC is the temp curve on the compressor maps, look up the Lysholm/Autorotor data. The temp is very important because the screws of the SC heat up, expand and rub. AND THIS IS A FACT, just ask any drag racer using Autorotor, Whipple or Lysholm. And they dont like the high revs due to this fact. Not to mention the high inlet temps. So the only sensible option for a small capacity high reving engine that a turbo is not suitable for, is a centrifugal SC.

Reading back through all the related posts, the whole problem here appears that mysql101 fuddged the dyno graphs, and appears to have no idea of how much injustice he has done to the SC kit. I can guarantee that at no point does the engine make less power than standard, that just shows me how little you guys understand on how a chassis dyno works and the effect of ramp rates. Any engine that has the pumping losses eliminated, by a forced induction system, at the very low RPM's will make more power than NA. You dont need positive manifold pressure to make some power, you can just reduce the vacuume at low RPM. An NA engine is an air compressor in simple terms, it has to work to ingest the greatest volume of air to compress it with the fuel mixture. You make it easier for the engine to breath at low RPM, you make power, especially if your engine has port timing with zero degrees of overlap. Where you CAN NOT take advantage of cylinder/rotor scavenge.

The Hymee kit will never come close to the procharger kit, because the PD is no good on a rotary, many have tried from street cars to drag cars and failed. This is not rocket science guys. This is all very simple, you do your calculations on making a match up of SC/turbo, you figure out what engine management you will use, you bolt it all up and see where you are. Many iterations and design changes latter you come up with the best option, it may be a comprimise. But in simple terms, it either works or NOT. I read that the DNA/Rotormaster had a turbo kit at tried different turbo configs, and in the end they went with the procharger. Hmmmm im thinking that is the case becasue it worked the BEST !!!!! I may be guessing here, but surley if the turbo kit was cheaper and worked the best they would be selling them. They would be crazy not too.

If the PD SC would have worked, Im sure that with a Motec and all the other gear and knowledge base, that Hymee would have got it up and running. I take my hat off to them for trying because that is the frist step.

The Pettit kit is in the same books, these people have the resources and the knowhow to make it work. But it dont look all that good to me. The procharger kit is the only one that makes power all the way to 9k, as they ALL should. Because that is how the Mazda engineers intended the engine to behave.

Its good to see that there are some sensible people on this forum.

You really seem to be confusing application with intention. Also, you seem to assume everyone must only want what you want.

As for you statements regarding Lysholm/Autorotor and "The temp is very important because the screws of the SC heat up, expand and rub. AND THIS IS A FACT." I spoke with Lysholm engineers extensively a year ago and have seen all the compressor maps, efficiencies, parasitic losses, etc...I've also spoken with Mustang owners of the lysholm units that push upwards of 1 bar, and ZERO mention of what you claim to be "FACT". These are guys with NASA racing licenses, so not drag racing. But drag racers will push significantly more boost than a street application. So even if what you're claiming is true, it's a non factor for a RX-8 running at most a 1.82 pr.

Instead of guessing Pettit's intentions - maybe try asking them what they were. Many of us, myself included, have spoken with Pettit and get very clearly their intentions.

We're all aware there is no overlap/scavenging in the Renesis. This is why the RX-7 crowd can use straight T4 turbos, and we're using smaller T3 turbines...and with the high compression/low boost, it really doesn't appear to be a factor.

Oh and your statement: "Type less and READ more" is very entertaining.

Before you bash me you would have done well to have at least looked at the dyno charts posted by mazdatrix.

Http://tinyurl.com/2b6gvf

They show less power and cut off the sc graph so a clear view of how much less isn't shown. You can take their dyno charts and plop them over a stock graph and verify for yourself.
I have no desire to make any kit look bad as its extremely easy to validate my results using the charts that have been posted.

WOW
Reading back through all the related posts, the whole problem here appears that mysql101 fuddged the dyno graphs, and appears to have no idea of how much injustice I can guarantee that at no point does the engine make less power than standard, that just shows me how little you guys understand on how a chassis dyno works and the effect of ramp rates. Any engine that has the pumping losses eliminated, by a forced induction system, at the very low RPM's will make more power than NA. You dont need positive manifold pressure to make some power, you can just reduce the vacuume at low RPM. An NA engine is an air compressor in simple terms, it has to work to ingest the greatest volume of air to compress it with the fuel mixture. You make it easier for the engine to breath at low RPM, you make power, especially if your engine has port timing with zero degrees of overlap. Where you CAN NOT take advantage of cylinder/rotor scavenge.

The Hymee kit will never come close to the procharger kit, because the PD is no good on a rotary, many have tried from street cars to drag cars and failed. This is not rocket science guys. This is all very simple, you do your calculations on making a match up of SC/turbo, you figure out what engine management you will use, you bolt it all up and see where you are. Many iterations and design changes latter you come up with the best option, it may be a comprimise. But in simple terms, it either works or NOT. I read that the DNA/Rotormaster had a turbo kit at tried different turbo configs, and in the end they went with the procharger. Hmmmm im thinking that is the case becasue it worked the BEST !!!!! I may be guessing here, but surley if the turbo kit was cheaper and worked the best they would be selling them. They would be crazy not too.

If the PD SC would have worked, Im sure that with a Motec and all the other gear and knowledge base, that Hymee would have got it up and running. I take my hat off to them for trying because that is the frist step.

The Pettit kit is in the same books, these people have the resources and the knowhow to make it work. But it dont look all that good to me. The procharger kit is the only one that makes power all the way to 9k, as they ALL should. Because that is how the Mazda engineers intended the engine to behave.

Its good to see that there are some sensible people on this forum.

So RedDevil, from being chummy with the Lysholm engineers and reading the compressor charts what conclusions have you come too????
Which Autorotor is suitable for the Renesis and why????

The fact that the rotors do rub is not the only reason that a PD blower is not suitable. However to get any worthwhile performance on a rotary with a Autorotor you would need to overdrive it too much. There was a 3 rotor 20B drag car here in Australia with an Autorotor, they tried three different models from what i heard. The boost levels were in excess of 40 psi, and the engine power output was less then 600HP and was cooking the engine non stop. Yet the turbo version makes over 1300Hp on the engine dyno with less boost. http://youtube.com/watch?v=RomCIKez7Lw

So what is Petits intent? Please would like to know. Its quite clear what the intent of the procharger kit is. Before you jump, their aim was to complement the factory power output and delivery. It's obvious.

So zero inlet/exhaust port timing has little effect on forced induction, interesting. Very interesting. Please explain your self !!!!

mysql101, dude you need to understand that the dyno runs are not made back to back. And that different ramp rates would need to be used, also the different ambient conditions would also effect the graph. Also the RPM the engine load was applied on would also vary the graph, a 500 RPM difference would alter the graph signinficantly. So either way you are WRONG. Worst still you are comparing graphs from different chassis dynos, that alone is crazy.
In this case data is not translational, one variable that you cant account for is engine load. Engine load is what determines how much power you make, and the shape of the power curve, the reason that free revving an engine too 9k will not yield the same power output. You need to put load on the engine, the rate and type of load applied will vary the graph, even tyre temp will vary this. So plotting the graphs like you said is plain CRAZY. You are just pulling figures out your, you know what.

Stop quoting posts. Wasting space. LOL

mysql101, from looking at that graph it is obvious that the load was applied at different engine rev rates, roughly 1000RPM difference. I don't know why. It would seem like they didn't expect that people would make such a big deal out it. So this makes your analysis using this graph even more useless. Dude if you made this type of assumptions in the real world as an engineer you would be looking for new employment at McDonalds.

Hell I'll go even further, I think you them an apology. LMAO :spank:

So RedDevil, from being chummy with the Lysholm engineers and reading the compressor charts what conclusions have you come too????
Which Autorotor is suitable for the Renesis and why????

The fact that the rotors do rub is not the only reason that a PD blower is not suitable. However to get any worthwhile performance on a rotary with a Autorotor you would need to overdrive it too much. There was a 3 rotor 20B drag car here in Australia with an Autorotor, they tried three different models from what i heard. The boost levels were in excess of 40 psi, and the engine power output was less then 600HP and was cooking the engine non stop. Yet the turbo version makes over 1300Hp on the engine dyno with less boost. http://youtube.com/watch?v=RomCIKez7Lw

So what is Petits intent? Please would like to know. Its quite clear what the intent of the procharger kit is. Before you jump, their aim was to complement the factory power output and delivery. It's obvious.

So zero inlet/exhaust port timing has little effect on forced induction, interesting. Very interesting.

Off the top of my head, the 2300 series from Lysholm. Since it was a year ago, I don't specifically recall. I also sized from anywhere in range from 5-6psi to as large as 1 bar.

No on cares about 40psi on a Renesis. That application has nothing to do with what works and doesn't on a streetable engine. That you are comparing such an extreme application as that to street cars is misguided.

Take your own advice, "Type less and READ more". The answers are everywhere on here, or you can simply write them. Why does anyone have to spoon feed you? You've come to the forum professing you know so much, and everyone else knows so little...so why take our word for it? Ask them.

Where did I claim it had "little effect"? If anything, I acknowledged it was having implications by stating the use of T3 turbines on the Renesis as opposed to the usual T4 that has been so widely matched to previous 13B applications.

RedDevil, my comparison of the 40psi is to show you the difference of using a Autorotor vs a Turbo on a rotary engine. To demonstrate that it is not a good match up at all. They are crap on a conventional rotary and yet you are under the impression that it will do something magic on a Renesis, WAKEUP will you. The laws of thermodynamics don't change because you wish it so.

If your so confident in your choice with the Autorotor why not do it, would love to see your results. Bet they will be the same as all other attempts. You will make some power down low and thats it, noting worth while in the mid range or top end. Wasted effort.

Before you jump back on me, i do own one of the procharger kits, I was the sixth or so to have it fitted when it come out. Love it. Have blown away guys with GReddy kits and other custom turbo kits in RX8's. So as far as the procahrger kit is concerned, I'm speaking from experience.

Had a new diff ratio fitted to the RX8 some time ago. Now there is not many cars that can keep up. You want more down low, change your diff ratio.

When the kit first came out there was so much talk on this and other forums. I read most of the crap people were posting then upto now. And one thing has not changed, the over whelming majority of people who were bagging this and that and waiting for something new to come out still have not made a commitment. And i belive they never will, unless it costs $50 and makes 500Hp. I just cant belive you guys are still talking crap about something that works, and works so well. People allover the world are using this kit for rally cars, circuit cars street cars. But yet the people on this forum are oblivious to the fact.

I try and stay off these forums because they drive me nuts. :rant:

*popcorn* = yummy.

The Don:

This is going to come across as harsh and for that I apologize. If you think a twin screw is a poor match for a Renesis, you really don't know much about them or how they work. Sorry. Just because you own a centrifugal really only means that you've got money and nothing else. Lots of people think that because their wallets are big enough to buy into a hyped up product that all of a sudden their experience means alot. Supra guys are a good example and most of those cars, as high as their power numbers are, are not done very well. You can have all of your buddies and even Procharger engineers come on here and proclaim all they want but at the end of the day I'm going to laugh at it. Centrifugals are a poor choice for small high revving engines and no one anywhere can prove that wrong. There has never been a single centrifugal in the past that has worked well on these engines and simple physics would dictate that this isn't about to change unless of course you get a variable internal gearing on one.

If someone had an autorotor on a 3 rotor and it was running at 40 psi and only pushing 600 hp, it was too small!!!!! That's easy to explain. Stick a Renesis Greddy turbo on a 3 rotor and push 40 psi and see what you get. You'll get crap because the turbo is too small!!!! Duh?

The Pettit kit was never designed for more than 300 hp. It's designed to augment the powerband for the street to make it feel like the engine is larger everywhere and not only at redline. It does that. They are working on a kit with a larger supercharger that will be intended for more power. All they need to do is set a goal and hit it. They don't need to have a unit that is capable of twice that much. That's a wasteful design.

Hymee is still working on his kit. He hasn't failed. If you had been at Sevenstock and seen his presentation you'd realize where he is with the project and why things are being done the way they are. He is not a shop. He has a day job and it isn't designing supercharger kits. That is a hobby that he is trying to share. Can he really be faulted for taking so long? He also has addressed some pulley issues that the Procharger has done wrong but that's because he thinks like an engineer and not an accountant. He will be happy if his kit hits 330 hp or so. If his hits that and the Procharger hits 330hp, the Procharged car would be so far behind in a race that it wouldn't even be funny. That's average power for you.

When you see it displayed you whine and complain that they dyno charts must have been fudged because someone doesn't understand how chassis dynos work? WTF? I think you're in denial because you see what is actually happening but you don't want to believe it. The info presented backs up my personal opinion of these expensive hairdrying paperweights. FWIW: I never said a turbo was a bad match for the Renesis. I said a centrifugal supercharger is but that's only because it's true.

If you want low end power change the rear end ratio? Are you serious??? How about just using a form of forced induction that works everywhere rather than only up high? That makes far more sense. Now you want to bandaid performance back in due to deficiencies in other areas. Wow!

You tell me to read more and type less and I find that funny considering the source of that statement. I'm not the one that needs to do any homework here. You are. You are flat dead wrong on almost every account. Take your own advice. Spend some of money on homework material. If I could make alot of money selling a pile of dog crap just by convincing people that they needed it, I probably would too!

Please don't refer to the 6psi kit because no one in their right mind would use the 6spi pulley, refer to the 10psi dyno.

RedDevil, my comparison of the 40psi is to show you the difference of using a Autorotor vs a Turbo on a rotary engine. To demonstrate that it is not a good match up at all. They are crap on a conventional rotary and yet you are under the impression that it will do something magic on a Renesis, WAKEUP will you. The laws of thermodynamics don't change because you wish it so.

If your so confident in your choice with the Autorotor why not do it, would love to see your results. Bet they will be the same as all other attempts. You will make some power down low and thats it, noting worth while in the mid range or top end. Wasted effort.

Before you jump back on me, i do own one of the procharger kits, I was the sixth or so to have it fitted when it come out. Love it. Have blown away guys with GReddy kits and other custom turbo kits in RX8's. So as far as the procahrger kit is concerned, I'm speaking from experience.

People allover the world are using this kit for rally cars, circuit cars street cars. But yet the people on this forum are oblivious to the fact.

I try and stay off these forums because they drive me nuts. :rant:

Who is trying to change the laws of thermodynamics? And why is the power that I'm looking for the same as you? Your expectations are not the same as others.

So why don't I have it, because I decided I didn't want the complication of FI at this point. And I'm not really all that interested in an air to water IC. And if my results were in line with Pettit, I'd be perfectly happy with that. I've seen the compressor maps and done the engine calcs...I know what to expect and Pettit is in line perfectly with what those compressors can offer. You questioned if I've seen the maps and data from Lysholm and what size I'd pick. Yet it's clear you haven't.

And so it comes out...you have one of these kits. Good for you...clearly it is not an application many of us agree with. Also, if you'd look through my post history and I think even on THIS thread - you'll see that I said for a track car this kit would be perfect. For a daily driver, I don't agree with it at all.

Please don't refer to the 6psi kit because no one in their right mind would use the 6spi pulley, refer to the 10psi dyno.

No one would use a 6 psi pulley because the kit has no low end and driving it would absolutely suck. A turbo or a positive displacement blower on the other hand would be very fun at 6 psi.

The Don ,
thanks for coming on here and giving us your point of view .
Instead of trying to argue with these guys how about giving us a review of the supercharger as you are the first person to come on here who has one and is willing to talk about it . I would be interested to hear what your experience has been .

The Don ,
thanks for coming on here and giving us your point of view .
Instead of trying to argue with these guys how about giving us a review of the supercharger as you are the first person to come on here who has one and is willing to talk about it . I would be interested to hear what your experience has been .

Good idea...what kind of 1/4 mile times, maintenance, install, a review of the Powermod...lots of good info to be had...

there is a guy in Sweden? with one; he normally posts in the racing forum. he seems happy with his.

When i had the kit fitted first there was no 10 or 12 psi kit available. Only option was the 6psi. I already know that RG will kick up a stink, none the less, the procharger kit at 6psi was a huge improvement over standard. I live in a very hilly area, Wollongong for other Aussies. I had no longer to down shift to 3rd gear for one of the steepest and longest inclines in the region, the car was very happy cruizing in 4th and accelerating at a very slow rate. So at 6psi there is significant increase in torque and obviously power. 8k take off's, smoking rubber, its a rotor mate. Mid to top end it was so much fun when it was first fitted, it took me just over two months to get used to it. And then it felt standard, not slow like NA, but if felt like this is how that car come out of the factory. And they should. Which i found quite awesome, because it is exactly what the DNA guys told it would be, and it made so much sense to me. They never intended to alter the power delivery, just compliment it. Even at the 6 psi level i did have to upgrade the clutch, mainly due to the fun I was having, also installed a lightened flywheel. A month and a bit later later I changed my diff ratio, which was on order for over three months, i was hoping it to be my first big mod but things don't always work out. A new car again, fantastic. Awesome for the track, I did a few track (circuit) days with the car, what an amazing chassis when it has some go. I do own a series1 13B bride port club car, handles like a go kart. Have to admit the RX8 is a very tight package on the track, very happy. But it does need more brakes, thats next.

The 12 psi kit went on, also put the standard diff ratio back in, i had the other diff fitted with the new ratio so i can swap when ever i want. If you intend on a diff ratio swap best way to go, worth the extra cost. 25 min swap over when ever you want. At 12 psi it made 312 Hp at the treads with the standard ratio. If you intend on a procharger kit, go for this one it rocks. But a few people that went for a spin in the car would prefer a little less power, each too their own. With the new ratio it made 5 more Hp insignificant, could have been just the difference in ambient or engine temp. With the 12 psi and the 5.2 in the rear, now this how they should have come out of the factory, LOL. Power slides come standard, loving it. A bit hard to put into words, but will try. It is more like an exotic super car than a modified new car. Smooth power delivery, wide power band and 9k comes quickly.

I did no 1/4 runs to date, i did race a turbo R33 Skyline that has run low 11 sec pass apparently, with semi slick tires. By fourth gear i had half a car length on him, just a street drag, and held the slight lead to the end. TO be honest i don't belive that in street trim the Skyline would run anything better than a mid 12. If i had to guess I'd say mid 12, with 230Kw at the wheels. Maybe with semi slick rubber only. It's just a stab in the dark, could be better or worse. No plans to take it down the quarter, I couldn't care much as long as it goes round the track like a demon.

Maintenance is easy, i change oil every 3000km's in the blower and the engine. DNA recommends 5000km's, but I cane the ass off it so 3000km's I'm happy with since i don't drive it every day.

I didn't do the install, it was all done at DNA. But it does look quite simple.

The Powermod is brilliant, first and fore most it is so simple to tune. The guys at Powermod gave me the software after talking to them, usually only a tune shop will have the access. Very simple to tune, and so many options for a piggy back. People have tried all sorts of ECU's on the RX8 yet this little known unit is flawless. The Powermod is a very logical unit, i have the benefit of talking to the design engineer of the ECU. It controls the injectors and ignition independent of the standard ECU.
It uses the OEM ECU injector output for injector timing input for the Powermod, the same as for timing. It uses this info as a base map, BRILLIANT. Slap it in and everything is as standard, then tune away. Some so called piggy backs you cant alter the ignition in the negative direction (ie. retard). It has also a NOS option, both injectors and timing for a dry setup. Too many options to list, a great unit.

I see that Brettus also has a Powermod, what do you think? And have you tried any other units?

The guys at DNA and Powermod do all their engineering design, r&d and some fitting at the one unit. They do all their work on CAD all 3D modeled with some FEA (google it too lazy to explain to those that don't know), prior to CNC machining. They were kind enough to show me all this when I was there. They also do lots of engineering design for drag and circuit racing teams, some of the stuff they could show me was very impressive. A professionally designed and engineered kit, hmmm. Being a mechanical engineer my self, this was a no brainer for me.

I'm wrapped with my SC setup, i love how the car drives and responds. 10/10 from me. To this date haven't seen anything that comes close, or delivers what it promises.
I have been for a drive in a custom turbo RX8 build by a rotary shop, that was meant to be quick. Very average. Between 6000-7000k rpm you can feel the power roll off, and he shifts at 7500rpm, WTF. Beat him by three car lengths before he backed off, apparently it needed more tuning or something, but that info come out after I beat him. Before that is was the best thing ever, after he lost the excuses come out.

Nice write-up. Sounds like it is a blast at the track where you keep the RPMs on a boil.

And a 5.2 in the rear...holy crap is that agressive!!!

5.2 in the rear is awesome. Initialy it is a bit agressive. But with the legs the car has it's awesome being a hoon on street and track.
Even with the 4.44 don't need to keep it pegged at 9k.

what kind of boost do you see at 4000 and 5000 rpm?

I see that Brettus also has a Powermod, what do you think? And have you tried any other units?

.

Many thanks for the awesome write up The Don . It just goes to show that theory and reality do not always translate to the same thing . I always liked this kit from when it first came out but like I said earlier it seems very pricey for what it is .
Re the Powermod - it's been brilliant on my N/A. About a year ago ,while everyone on here was busy trying to get their Interceptor x's to work I did a write up on how good the Powermod was that was largely ignored . I don't think the americans could believe that an aussie company could do it better .....

This is one American that believes very deeply that an Aussie company can and has done it better. I have been a MoTeC owner since 1994. Aussies rule when it comes to engine management.

Now that is a legit support from someone that I know --that knows what he is talking about (that is what i am putting in mine Chas, different name but same company).
Good write up Don, but a mid 12(?) 1/4 estimated of course, rx8? Damn. I would like to see that.
Personally I like the PD SC for the low end grunt. And personally,I dont need 9K--high revs add to temp probs on the track, more strain on driveline components etc
8k-to 8.5 is good for me.
Lower ration does make the car rock. I just put smaller wheel/tire combo on for the track (est 4.78 or so final drive ratio) and man--it does change her. Course i havent been to the track yet with the s.c kit so I am sure other changes will have to be made.
once the theory discussion was out of the way--really enjoyed the read.
olddragger

My buddies own Sportbikes which redline at like 15-16k. No usable power <5k. They'd feel right at home with a kit like this installed on an RX8... except they'd be hitting the 9k limiter an awful lot.

I wonder... could you still hear the little 8.5k "beep" over the whine of the turbo... I need to hear that thing sometimes??? :)

It isn't a 12 psi kit, sorry about that, it's actually a 10 psi kit that makes a little over 11psi at just over 9k, my car just loves to rev, I just round it up.

Next time i go for a spin will see what the boost is at 4000-5000rpm. Never took much notice.

Mid 12's does sound a bit optimistic doesn't it, low 13 maybe. LOL I have no idea.
It is deceptively quick, having had a few real quick quarter mile cars I still can't pick this one. I might take it down the quarter one day maybe. :Eyecrazy:

I haven't had temp issues with my car on the track yet, many people say they do. My car even has an intercooler in the way, still fine. Have been thinking about a custom radiator and a large engine oil cooler for the insurance. But need brakes more than anything.

From 6k onwards i hear nothing. LOL

Don't like to boast, but Aussies do make the best ECU's. A long list, Motec, Autronic, Haltech, Microtec, EMS, Wolf 3D and the Powermod. I'm sure i missed a few.

Well there is a video on google of a guy with 265whp using the greddy kit who ran a 13.1@107mph. So a mid-high 12 isn't that far fetched. I'm guessing a 12.7-12.8 is possible with a good launch.

yea low 13's I agree with--- MID 12's that would be exciting with a street driven car(no drag radials, 1/4 mile suspenion setup and the whatnot etc)
I agree also---what damn buzzer?!
Don you are right even low 13's is pretty dang good--have fun driving her like she is supposed to be driven!
Olddragger

A little info on the ProCharger.
Went for a ride in the Mazdatrix demo car with Dave.

Power
This system makes power right from the start all the way to the rev limit. Never does it make less power than stock anywhere in the rev range.

Drivability
Runs like a turbo but no lag.
Linear power curve.
Your wife can drive it no problem. (No coming in and out of boost)

Tuning
Runs out of the box on base maps just fine.

Heat
No big heat buildup under the hood (Not like turbo setups, no flipping the hood up, no turbo timers)

The construction is high quality and the install is easy.
This thing runs great and is a good match for the linear power output of the rotary.
The performance of this system is nothing like what has been described in this thread.

Mazdatrix put dyno numbers up for the stage 1 kit (6PSI). They claim it is not tunned and should make more power after some work. I was told that the vehicle was basicly stock prior to the procharger, so an exhaust upgrade should help. The numbers look good, a nice HP and TRQ curve and it makes power the whole pull. I am intersted to see what the stage 2 makes but they told me that they wont be doing the stage 2 for a while.

http://www.mazdatrix.com/8forcedinduction.htm

Drama! n da r-x-8 clubbbbbb. lol

Man, this read was better than watching a murder-she-wrote marathon!!!!

How many new people have gotten this kit since 2007? Did the hymee kit ever come back to be better? is the drama over? will the action continue? FIND OUT ON THE NEXT POST!!!


I hope....

Drama! n da r-x-8 clubbbbbb. lol

Man, this read was better than watching a murder-she-wrote marathon!!!!

How many new people have gotten this kit since 2007? Did the hymee kit ever come back to be better? is the drama over? will the action continue? FIND OUT ON THE NEXT POST!!!


I hope....

Mazdatrix went away from the recharge in favor of a custom in house turbo.

I don't think they ever sold a kit.

The kit biilders DNA motorsports of Australia l changed the kit and is now using a D1SC blower which is capable of even more power and has a better track record of reliability.

The kit has 2 main issues.
1- Belt slippage. With the 12psi pulley on the original C2 compressor, the belt would slip over 9-10 psi. New tight belts were Always required unless you install an optional cog tooth belt. The new D1SC blower should be better.

2- Cooling. Like every FI kit with a giant FMIC, radiator air flow wasn't good and keeping ECT's down on the track required modifications.

Power- Made the claimed HP from DNA but not Mazdatrix. Remember the blower stealspower to the tune of maybe 10-15%.

Tuning- Mazdatrix didn't like the powermod and went with a more expensive standalone for their race car. You can modify the intake tube and tune with the Cobb AP.

Price- Price was always a bit high plus it was made in Australia and the exchange rate sucks for us right now, with so many hard kits on the market and 2 or more companies making top mount kits capable of much more power, no reason to pick an overpriced, power stealing procharger.

Hymee made a few kits, never took off. Production and price issues I believe but I'm out of the loop on that kit. I don't think it made as much power as everyone hoped either. Rotarys just like turbos. With a 9k rpm motor, spinning a blower that fast steals too much power.

I have a procharger on my 8 so I can talk bad about it, but after all the headache and self Inflicted issues, it will make a solid 300-325 rwhp. So I got what I wanted but it is taking longer and costing more then I planned. Thats life, thats rotarys.

Thats life, thats rotarys.


:werd:

Btw -- The Procharger kit we took off our Time Attack RX8 is for sale.

No intercooler (stayed on the car for the turbo).

Procharger, mounts, belts, various pulley combos, powermod, injectors?, etc.

I had it on the car on the street and really liked it.

Not sure what it is worth? Somebody make me an offer.

Dave @ Mazdatrix

562-426-7960