Let me first state that this is my opinion and is not directed to any specific manufacturer of forced induction kits for the rx8. Although I might use names for specific instances I do not mean any disrespect to your company or your products. I applaud these shops for the work they have done and their contribution to the community. This is just some constructive criticism.

I have been reading about FI kits for the rx8 for the last 4 years on this forum. As a multiple business owner I see so many things wrong with advisement of these kits. Because of the lack of information I see tons of these ridiculous threads that are virtually all the same pop up every day, and the same questions being asked repeatedly about specific parts and details.

So if I were going to manufacture a turbo or sc kit for the rx-8 this is exactly how I would present it to the community.

1. The first thing would be don’t release a kit until it is complete. As funny as it sounds there are instances of it happening almost every where.

2. Don’t talk about items that may or may not be included in the kit weather it is an item that might be different or not be there at all. Again this goes to issue number 1.

3. After you have spent all that time with development and putting the pieces together and the kit is ready for sale be as descriptive and informative as you possibly can (WITHOUT GIVING AWAY THE FARM) This means detailed information of every part! When you release this kit you don’t want to be answering questions all day, and the consumer would be more inclined to buy a kit that has all their questions answered up front rather than having to ask a million questions about what’s in the kit how it runs ect.

4. This goes back to number 3. When I say without giving away the farm give as much detail about every single part included in the kit without telling the person enough to where they could go out and buy every part in the kit to recreate it at a lower cost. If you have a part that is a replica of another for example a waste gate, show the specs of both and detailed pictures or the replica part vs. that of the real thing internals and all. I would assume that if you are using a replica you already bought the real thing for testing purposes.

5. The install. This is an extra bonus for the consumer. Once all of the production pieces are ready for sale do a write up of the install with detailed pictures from start to finish. Don’t just include this for the people buying the kit but show it to the public so they can see everything that’s involved.

6. Power numbers. Don’t release a kit if you don’t have dynos of the actual production kit. This just creates more questions. When releasing the dyno sheets. Explain and list any upgraded performance parts on the test car that do no come with a kit so there is no question when someone buys the kit and does not produce similar results. So when your kit is done strap it to the dyno DO A FULL RUN WITH THE MAP IT COMES WITH. This shows people exactly what they are getting out of the box. No questions no headaches. Explain that it is the base map prior to tuning.

6. Now if you are claiming the kit can produce X amount of hp/torque with proper tuning SHOW IT. For example if your kit out of the box will put down 300whp 240torque and you say it can hit 350whp and 400whp with specific tuning. PUT UP DYNOS WITH THESE NUMBERS and explain what was done to achieve these number be it boost increase added performance parts. Better yet release your kit with stage options for power all at once. So when people buy it right away they will have the options now rather than later.

I fully believe if any manufacture followed these basic steps it would increase sales greatly. Some may say it’s easier said than done, or time is money and this take more time. Put it this way you have already spent countless days and money in development of this kit. Do you really want to sit there and have to defend your product, answer questions for days/weeks/months before the kit is actually selling well or someone buys the kit does it for you? Taking care of all possible questions first will result in higher sales, faster sales, and more time to work on other projects.

Flame me if you want but I think most people would agree with me that when kits are release more definitive information needs to be released.

Cogent, but unrealistic given the nature of the product and the people that would sell them.
Nearly every manufacturer of aftermarket stuff for the '8 would be labeled "fly-by-night" in a normal business market. Nearly everything is hand-made and the target is a moving one, especially in light of the large variability in the end result from a multitude of influences.

OTOH, the GReddy system is a good example of how a plan executed to your specifications will still go horribly wrong. They did exactly what you suggest and they still bear the brunt of an overwhelming amount of criticism here because those that bought the kit were not subsequently touched by god.
Everyone that bought that system immediately attempted to turn it into something it was not designed to be and "customized" it out of its usable range.

Cogent, but unrealistic given the nature of the product and the people that would sell them.
Nearly every manufacturer of aftermarket stuff for the '8 would be labeled "fly-by-night" in a normal business market. Nearly everything is hand-made and the target is a moving one, especially in light of the large variability in the end result from a multitude of influences.

OTOH, the GReddy system is a good example of how a plan executed to your specifications will still go horribly wrong. They did exactly what you suggest and they still bear the brunt of an overwhelming amount of criticism here because those that bought the kit were not subsequently touched by god.
Everyone that bought that system immediately attempted to turn it into something it was not designed to be and "customized" it out of its usable range.

I understand exactly what you are saying MM and I agree with most of it. With regards to the greddy kit they did do some things right but their quality control was absolute shit. They did how ever say the kit was designed for I believe a 70whp gain? And for the most part this was true. Had greddys quality control been much better and spent more rd on the maps they provided I believe they would have been much more successful.

Greddys representation of the kit was for the most part accurate. The advertising was fine. Their product development and quality control was shit though. I believe it was you who said “the greddy kit was rushed to the market to beat competitors developing FI solutions for the rx8” something along those lines.

Proper advertising and representation of product is one thing. Proper quality control, research and development are a whole other ball game.

For the people who bought the kit and thought they could get 400whp out of it. Well that was their mistake.

Even for those that tried to get anything more than 6 PSI out of it.
It was designed as a low boost, bolt-on kit with modest goals.
No one was satisfied with that.

yea i know no one was satisfied but greddy never advertized more than what it was. Once the bugs were fixed for what it is and for the price it is actually a good kit.

Now if they had better qc, spent more time on r and d they would have been able to come up with something that made more power was more adjustable slightly higher priced but sold more kits.

again greddys problem wasnt really in advertizement and representation as it was quality control and r and d.

They actually sold an enormous number of kits - far more than any competitor has or will in the near future.
Though there were/are bugs, they did provide solutions that fit the existing parameters of the kit. What they didn't provide is hand-holding, but very few manufacturers are able or willing to do that.

true

Basically for these fly-by-night companies all I would want to see is detailed list of exact parts.

A base dyno run of the map provide. List other performance parts that were on the car that are not included in the kit.

If the kit it capable of producing higher hp/torque say and show it. Give us a dyno from the same car. Say “we achieved x amount of hp and torque by tuning and adding these specific part require for higher power numbers”

By telling people what other parts/factors were involved in achieving those numbers will give better representation and understanding of the product they are selling. Granted just getting a kit and having the same parts does not guarantee the same numbers. But with so many people just wanting the power and not understanding how it’s made. Detailed explanation would probably help.

Also MM that I am very disappointed in your choice of avatar. Compared to the others you have had this is just not as good haha

Also MM that I am very disappointed in your choice of avatar. Compared to the others you have had this is just not as good haha

You discriminating against redheads? mmm..

and on the topic, I do agree- a full parts list and REAL dyno numbers for the 'bolt on' results would be nice. Excuses are easy.

Also MM that I am very disappointed in your choice of avatar. Compared to the others you have had this is just not as good haha

Different strokes for different folks. That one is dear to my heart, anyway.

Now sure how to tell you or Jeff this, but we live in an imperfect world. There is nothing built or released that is "fully tested" to the extent that you are refering to. Hell the Pharmaceutical business can't even get their act together. I purchase millions of dollars worth of equipment for my clients from "reputable" manufactures and 95% of the equipment we get is not in working order. I am forced to write an extra 5% into each purchase for after sale service to correct mistakes. Humans are not perfect (except for MazdaManiac:) ) and mistakes are going to be made. In the rush to be first or deliver on schedule, small corners are cut that come back to haunt the manufacturer but if he does all the testing that should be done then he will loose because someone else will release with little of no R & D or will release within the schedule. I actually hear about less with this "cottage" industry than in the real industrial world. A least in this world they will answer the phone and give you answers.

I agree. That was partially my point. The OP has some very high expectation for the industry.

IMO, everything aftermarket no matter who it is from should always be considered caveat emptor. Anyone with different expectations is due for serious disappointement sooner or later.

In certain worlds thank God for the gatekeepers---this is fun stuff--- in other worlds this is actually life and death. I have a thousand stories.
olddragger

I agree. That was partially my point. The OP has some very high expectation for the industry.

Now sure how to tell you or Jeff this, but we live in an imperfect world. There is nothing built or released that is "fully tested" to the extent that you are refering to. Hell the Pharmaceutical business can't even get their act together. I purchase millions of dollars worth of equipment for my clients from "reputable" manufactures and 95% of the equipment we get is not in working order. I am forced to write an extra 5% into each purchase for after sale service to correct mistakes. Humans are not perfect (except for MazdaManiac:) ) and mistakes are going to be made. In the rush to be first or deliver on schedule, small corners are cut that come back to haunt the manufacturer but if he does all the testing that should be done then he will loose because someone else will release with little of no R & D or will release within the schedule. I actually hear about less with this "cottage" industry than in the real industrial world. A least in this world they will answer the phone and give you answers.

In response to both of you in regards to new FI kits.

I honestly do not see what is so hard about giving a detailed parts list.

Showing a dyno with the base map the engine management comes with.

Showing a dyno of a proposed number by the company and listing other parts that helped reach that goal. Every one should know that with the high number gaining similar results will require tuning.

No one buying an FI kit should think it will run perfect out of the box and that tuning is required for optimal performance. And that even with proper tuning result will vary but at least we would get some sort of idea of real world capabilities. rather than just throwing a number out there and expecting people to believe it.

This is little to no extra work. Basically this is 2-4 pulls on the dyno and some typing. Oh forgot uploading a few pictures. =D

I just though if a manufacturer did this he would reduce the amount of time need to defend and explain the product to multiple people and multiple times. And better inform the community they wish to sell the product too.

There is one person on this forum i believe to be doing what i am talking about. that man is Richard Paul. crossing all the Ts and dotting all the Is.

Also MM I like your new avatar :)

I wish I had the time/money/know how to build a turbo kit for the masses so I could back everything up that I have talked about. But it is only an opinion of mine. Maybe some day. haha

as much as i hate to say, isnt there less perceived demand for rx8 parts? from what i see nowadays most companies make parts of nissans, STIs and evos and a few odd parts for hondas here and there. it seems like if the money is there, then the major manufacturers go there to make parts, leaving very few to make parts of the 8.

I'd think if there is more rx8s in the racing scene, or more heavily modded rx8s running around without switching engines to 20b or 13b-rew then maybe we can hook their interests to serve our community better. But since theres no parts, theres not that many cars, its a vicious cycle :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Now sure how to tell you or Jeff this, but we live in an imperfect world. Humans are not perfect (except for MazdaManiac )

I agree.

Hehehehe :)