400 HP RX 8, Can it ever live up to the RX7 in acceleration?
This may come as a surprise to many RX8 owners but the RX8 will probably
never match what an RX7 was capable of in acceleration, unless you have real
deep pockets. I say this because the weak link here is the driveline, it is
physically weak compared to the RX7's and on top of that it has more weight
to push. I think many people either do not realize this or just don't think
it applies to them!
We have already seen some transmission failures with stock power so if you
plan on 400hp and 11-12 second 1/4's, plan on changing some driveline parts.

The RX 8 with 260-270whp
Now this is coming from someone who won Racing Championships with RX7's,
owns several RX7's and even makes a living from RX7's, For daily driving I
feel the Super 8 is a better choice than the aging fd RX7, the instant
response and bottom end torque from our forced induction kit works well with
the close ratio gears. Its so snappy and responsive that it actually feels
quicker than the average 7. Around town I hardly ever rev past 5000 and I'm
still way ahead of the crowd. The 8 is more of an all around car than a 7
ever thought of being, it rides better, handles better, has much more room,
it's much tighter and quieter, things work better etc,
Recently a good friend of mine and fellow enthusiasts drove my RX8 it right
after a test drive in a $150k Aston Martin, he was blown away and couldn't
get over the fact that the RX 8 felt quicker and all around better than the
Aston, his comment, this is like driving silk, It just feels right

Super 8 Stage III
As for our Super 8 Stage III for manual cars, the kit will be an upgrade to
the Stage II Kit. We've seen 338whp on the dyno with the stock injectors at
max duty, so stage III will hopefully be around 300-310 whp and bigger
injectors won't be needed. From what we've seen up to 310whp has been very
reliable and until more R&D is completed we won't know how far to go with
Stage IV. More info soon as it comes.

drool....

So it will be possible to get the stage 2 kit and simply upgrade to the stage 3?

This is why I started taking weight off the Rx8 before adding any real power. Based off all the topics I've read the only drive line week point is the Transmission.

I wonder how much a chrio treament would cost...


Anyways...WAIT 2 GO PETTIT! I would love to have the stage 3 or 4. :rock:

I wont really need any more power than that...especially if I put the 8 on a bigger diet. :shocking: This would definately make me more competitive in autocross.

so theoretically stage 2 should still allow the driveline(or most parts in general) to last a good amount of time/miles, correct?

Driveline life is largely a result of how you use your left foot. If your going to be drop launching the car, your going to have issues, doesn't matter if its stage II, III, IV or X.

A good clutch combo will help, but even RX7 trannys had weaknesses.

^ sorry I should have been more specific...

I have a lead foot, but I don't launch my car. If i were to do this it would be redlined often(no change from now), but not dropping the clutch. I am sure I will have to replace the clutch just due to my driving/teaching others to drive. That I am not worried about.

I am curious about other things that wouldn't naturally go out for lets say 80-100k miles if the car is driven responsibly. again, this is a theoretical question, I am not expecting a detailed plan of what will and won't break.:) obviously with fi comes more wear, I am just trying to get an idea of how much and if it would be worth it for me eventually.

I have to say that having had the opportunity to go for a test ride in Cams SC RX8 test mule(with Cam at the wheel) a couple of months ago, the most memorable thing was how seamless the added power of the SC comes on when under throttle. I am used to modded turbo cars with lag, and the Pettit SC solution just rips without impacting overall driveability at all. I am not sure what "stage" Cams car was in when I took that ride, but he had just re-installed the stock exhaust and commented that he wanted to see what the car was like on an otherwise stock car, but knew the exhaust was limiting the power some. Even in that trim it was a great feeling rush of power.

My hats off to Pettit on this one, and hopefully we will start seeing more first-person feedback on the system by customers in the near future!

Jeff

I would only be worried about the Tranny in extreme instances. I.E. 400 wHP +...even then I dont think the tranny will break.

Most people having issues with our transmission were due to factory defects I think. So far I have 30k miles on mine the transmission seems to run great. :Peace:

I really dont think you or many others will be going beyond that mark (HP I mean) so a simple clutch + flywheel combo would be all I would do.

However, I plan to race (road course and auto-x) and would probably need to chrio treat the internal tranny gears to be on the safe side (I could probably get away with not doing so and not suffer any damage).

Dragracing is a whole different story but as you mentioned you will not be doing that style of racing/driving.

As for our Super 8 Stage III for manual cars, the kit will be an upgrade to
the Stage II Kit.

Does this mean you won't be doing a stage III AT or does it mean that you're forcusing on the manual first? I can totally understand the manual first, but boy do I ever want stage III for my AT. :)

Also, way to hit 338whp!

Don't forget that at 338 wHP the turbo guys were also runnig out of spark so ignition system would need an upgrade as well. :D:

yup, thats the limit for stock components.

But hey, tossing a fuel system and better ignition in isnt a big deal if you want the big #'s

me like

when will the kits be available for export ?

You have my attention. If you buy the stage 2, will it be easily upgradable to stage 3 ( ie just a smaller pulley and and injectors and all that) and then to stage 4 or will it be a totally different kit?

hmmmm.......yum yum give me some...:D:

I would imagine what is needed for an upgrade is the following...

Bigger injectors
Smaller pulley
Re-tune maps

:wiggle: :worship:

yeah, thats likely what will be planned

Kinda what i ment was that is it a base kit that over time you can add parts and upgrade via stages? Is it at any point a different blower and pipes and all that jazz. Basically i dont want to buy one kit and then have to buy a totally different kit when i want to upgrade the kit.

the stage 2->3 transition will be like an upgrade package, stage 4 will likely require alot of part swapping, meaning a new kit.

Although its a new kit, im sure we can work something out for the stage 2/3 owner who wants to upgrade!

Ok, i gotcha. Sounds like a good deal

I thought moon was talking about stage 3 having different gearing entirely.

the stage 2->3 transition will be like an upgrade package, stage 4 will likely require alot of part swapping, meaning a new kit.

Although its a new kit, im sure we can work something out for the stage 2/3 owner who wants to upgrade!

That's what we like to hear!

Of course, like everyone else I'm interested in driveline longevity, or ways to add parts to ensure it. I don't drag race, but I do go to road courses so the tranny see's a lot of high rpm heel/toe downshifting before corner entry, etc...

This should be very interesting when it is finally released. It will make a decision very difficult.

Bindon, at what point are you guys recommending the radiator be upgraded? And does the car seeing time at track events affect this?

I'm also inferring from everything that the OEM fuel pump is more than adequate to flow for StageII with no worries, even at extended high rpm track driving?

Hey Bindon I would be interested to see the torque curve of the supercharger vs. Turbocharger

Do you still have the dyno graph from your last run at "338 WHP"

is there any issues with supercharging the engine? i heard that there was a problem with the engine being a six port as opposed to a 4 port.

is there any issues with supercharging the engine? i heard that there was a problem with the engine being a six port as opposed to a 4 port.


I would say if Pettit is on it, making almost 340whp, there probably isnt much of an issue. And if there is, they will probably tell you about it and how to fix it. So, please, what exactly did you hear? and from whom? did your mopar buddies tell you the motor needs to be rebuilt ever 50,000 miles or so?

We have seen 340 whp with a turbo setup we have done on track cars, not with our supercharger, although with the right size is attainable via supercharging.

We have used the car on the track with the supercharger and the temps have been good.

We do reccomend upgrading the radiator though, as it will definately help with cooling.

Mazports fan mod is also a good idea.

I would say if Pettit is on it, making almost 340whp, there probably isnt much of an issue. And if there is, they will probably tell you about it and how to fix it. So, please, what exactly did you hear? and from whom? did your mopar buddies tell you the motor needs to be rebuilt ever 50,000 miles or so?
HA! mopar buddies? where did that come from? no, i just thought that because the rx7 engines are similar (im refering to the 2nd gen. engines here) and i know that the NA rx7 are having problems when there being turbo'd or SC'd (something about the port wall because there a 6 port and not a 4 port) but then again i really havent thought about pettit fixing the problems, really i was just rambling or thinking out loud. i was really just curious, and wanted to know if there were problems.

The engines still differ. The 13B used in the 2nd gen had peripheral exhaust ports, whereas the Renesis has Side exhaust ports

HA! mopar buddies? where did that come from? no, i just thought that because the rx7 engines are similar (im refering to the 2nd gen. engines here) and i know that the NA rx7 are having problems when there being turbo'd or SC'd (something about the port wall because there a 6 port and not a 4 port) but then again i really havent thought about pettit fixing the problems, really i was just rambling or thinking out loud. i was really just curious, and wanted to know if there were problems.


From what I have read the similarities stop at rotary displacement and Mazda.

ok thanks for the info.

Will Automatic develop to 300WHP for 4 speed in stage 3?

Or will automatic stop in Stage 2 @ 250whp?

Thanks Pettit!

I doubt you will see 300, let alone 250 with the 4 port AT.

We are currently getting around 200 with the 4 port stage 2 kit on the At's

I doubt you will see 300, let alone 250 with the 4 port AT.

We are currently getting around 200 with the 4 port stage 2 kit on the At's

210 on just under 6 psi

Bindon - Maybe you should change up your signature to get a S/C in there.

210 on just under 6 psi

Sweet mother!!!!!

I want:) When might this be available guys?

Binden, you are local to me (well, I guess when you ARE in Toronto), any chance at having a look at what is transpiring?

Cheers,

Ed

Will Automatic develop to 300WHP for 4 speed in stage 3?

Or will automatic stop in Stage 2 @ 250whp?

Thanks Pettit!

Im shooting for 280 but im going to have to mod the tranny first. If I see more HP great. I have a good friend in MD that builds outrageously strong automatics. Im planning on heading up there soon and letting him take stab at it. I wouldnt go past 250 HP with the stock auto, thats my oppinion. Like I say if it can be broken ill do it. Im going to let him do mine up and when its done ill post how to get in touch with him for other auto owners that want there tranny reinforced. I havent seen one apart but im pretty sure the bands will take more of a beating causing slippage and im not sure how big the pins in the planaterys are. He will also now about the valve body. I dont have the time or id do it myself and im sure it will take him less then 4 days. Hes never done this perticuler tranny but after mines done his turnaround will be 2 days. He builds them for a living and has stock rebuilds done in less then a day including removal and instal by himself.

Im shooting for 280 but im going to have to mod the tranny first. If I see more HP great. I have a good friend in MD that builds outrageously strong automatics. Im planning on heading up there soon and letting him take stab at it. I wouldnt go past 250 HP with the stock auto, thats my oppinion. Like I say if it can be broken ill do it. Im going to let him do mine up and when its done ill post how to get in touch with him for other auto owners that want there tranny reinforced. I havent seen one apart but im pretty sure the bands will take more of a beating causing slippage and im not sure how big the pins in the planaterys are. He will also now about the valve body. I dont have the time or id do it myself and im sure it will take him less then 4 days. Hes never done this perticuler tranny but after mines done his turnaround will be 2 days. He builds them for a living and has stock rebuilds done in less then a day including removal and instal by himself.

Keep me apprised as I am having some issues with my tranny already. I figure it will be a big issue in just a few more days.

I understand the possible need to rebuild the Auto transmission for above 250whp, but why are the Auto RX-8 guys not using 3rd party Auto Transmission Fluid Coolers and better Auto transmission fluid already?

Its a kind of cheap $300 more or less mod.

^ Is there a DIY or a link to where/how this is done?

Benefits, cost, ease of install?

Cheers,

Ed

I understand the possible need to rebuild the Auto transmission for above 250whp, but why are the Auto RX-8 guys not using 3rd party Auto Transmission Fluid Coolers and better Auto transmission fluid already?

Its a kind of cheap $300 more or less mod.

I am using a tranny cooler and RP trans fluid. My problem is shifting my AT at higher RPMs. The tranny does not seem to like RPMs above 7800-8000 for shifting. Hell it will not shift at 9000 RPM and at 8000 thru 8500 is not stable during the shift. My s/c will be installed on June 9th by Charles R. Hill and I expect real problems after that unless I go back to shifting at 7800. Ray is going to have a look at the tranny when he's here so I'll leave further comment to after he looks at it. If your are aware of a company that offers upgrades for the AT please send me a PM or post it.

Your best bet is to go to a true trans shop and see what they have to say about it. All the talk around here is that the trans itself is pretty bulletproof but the torque converter just can't take spinning up that high which is why you are having problems.

And like Al said, the TCU doesn't like full load redline shifts, you will just have to ease off the gas.

I am using a tranny cooler and RP trans fluid. My problem is shifting my AT at higher RPMs. The tranny does not seem to like RPMs above 7800-8000 for shifting. Hell it will not shift at 9000 RPM and at 8000 thru 8500 is not stable during the shift. My s/c will be installed on June 9th by Charles R. Hill and I expect real problems after that unless I go back to shifting at 7800. Ray is going to have a look at the tranny when he's here so I'll leave further comment to after he looks at it. If your are aware of a company that offers upgrades for the AT please send me a PM or post it.

I'm intrigued by your shifting problem. I don't seem to be having a problem shifting at 8,000 to 8,500 RPM. But, I also had my ECU flashed (by Re-Amemiya), in addition to the tranny cooler and Red Line AT fluid. Re-Amemiya gives you the choice of making 8,500 or 9,000 rpm the MAX. I choose 8,500 RPM, but it appears to go past that anyway (not sure if they did not listen or some other factor like ECU based delay). Contrary to popular belief, it does appear to make a noticeable difference to have the higher shift point in 0-60 and the 1/4 mile. Around 8,000 RPM or a little more appears to be some type of sweet spot.

Also, I'm not clear on what specifically your shifting problem is. Do you mean that it appears to stick a bit before letting you shift? That there is a delay between you manually shifting and response?

As far as "stickiness" is concerned, I noticed that it appears to shift when you release. I don't know how to describe it. The faster you attempt to shift and let go, the better the results seem. If you attempt to shift slowly, it seems to "stick" a bit before changing the gears. At lower RPMs, "stickiness" is less noticeable, but at higher RPMs you need to use a faster technique.

I agree that you may need to take it to a transmission expert. Hopefully, someone that might have seen RX-7 and/or RX-8 transmissions before. Sorry, but I can't recommend anyone for you at this time.

Also, there may be something to looking the AT ECU more. I think it gets ignored as many pro-tuners are focusing on the MT and don't care to dig into AT issues. Charles Hill had mentioned doing this before on this board in one of the topics related to this issue. Since you have his services, you should bring it up again.

It would be great to look at how the the Automatic Transmission is being controlled to see if there is any tweaks possible. I just don't hear of anybody using the Int-X in this way for the RX-8 Autos. Maybe it can be done and was just not looked into. Hopefully when the Cobb AccessPort comes out, we may be able to dig into the AT ECU more too.

I'm looking forward to yours and Charles report on the RX-8 Auto install.

I won't be able to make any mods to Phil's tranny while I am there but I will get a chance to observe the tendencies of the transmission, itself. Most high-perf. trans work involves modifying the internal pressures the various systems operate under, which is controlled by the valve body(i.e. "shift kit" like those offered by TCI and B+M) as the bands and clutches are usually able to handle abuse they would endure on a street car. In the case of the Phil's 4sp. auto, this issue may be either electronic control-related or an accumulator valve that could stand a little tweaking.

Am I correct in understanding that the '07 models have the 6-port and a 6 speed auto in them? If so, I may be very interested in driving one of those models.

i do know that the new ATs have the 6 port...not sure about the 6 sp tho.

Yeah they have a 6 port and 6 speed auto tranny

Also, I'm not clear on what specifically your shifting problem is. Do you mean that it appears to stick a bit before letting you shift? That there is a delay between you manually shifting and response?
"Quote sosonic"

0-7800 RPM: mostly solid shifts - occasionally seems to slip (just a little) when at 7800
7800-8500: few solid shifts - seems to slip into gear most of the time
8500-8700: does not want to shift until I let off and the rpm reaches 8000 then seems to wants to slip into gear.
8700-9000: will not shift period - when rpm drops lower than 8000 then seems to want to slip into gear.
Slip: an extended time between asking for a shift and the reality of the shift without seeming to be in any gear. This varies with the RPM at the time of shift. Yes there is always the chance of "operator error" but the AT/4 even leads itself to compensate for that.

Now I would be worried that my tranny was failing if not for the solid shifts at and below 7800 RPM. I checked the Royal Purple tranny fluid and while not scientific, it does not smell burned and is at the recommended level. Ray will look at the tranny when he's here installing the s/c.

I think that with the install of the s/c and the interceptior X that this is a week link and needs addressing now.

it woke up my car and I love it
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y271/MUNCHE187/PIC/rx8supercharged.jpg

please tell me there would be a stage III for a 6 speed AT in about 5 months from now that would cost about 5-7k? pls?

I doubt you will see 300, let alone 250 with the 4 port AT.

We are currently getting around 200 with the 4 port stage 2 kit on the At's

What about the 6spd's??

Sorry if this has been asked before, but I'm seriously leaning toward getting a freakin' loan :spank: to get this thing before the end of the year haha

I'd only be interested after the Access Port comes out...the whole FI "revolution" for the RX shall gain momentum once that is released...

there will be releases of stage III kits for AT's but im not going ot give any timelines, because we all know that they change

Also, I'm not clear on what specifically your shifting problem is. Do you mean that it appears to stick a bit before letting you shift? That there is a delay between you manually shifting and response?
"Quote sosonic"

0-7800 RPM: mostly solid shifts - occasionally seems to slip (just a little) when at 7800
7800-8500: few solid shifts - seems to slip into gear most of the time
8500-8700: does not want to shift until I let off and the rpm reaches 8000 then seems to wants to slip into gear.
8700-9000: will not shift period - when rpm drops lower than 8000 then seems to want to slip into gear.
Slip: an extended time between asking for a shift and the reality of the shift without seeming to be in any gear. This varies with the RPM at the time of shift. Yes there is always the chance of "operator error" but the AT/4 even leads itself to compensate for that.

Now I would be worried that my tranny was failing if not for the solid shifts at and below 7800 RPM. I checked the Royal Purple tranny fluid and while not scientific, it does not smell burned and is at the recommended level. Ray will look at the tranny when he's here installing the s/c.

I think that with the install of the s/c and the interceptior X that this is a week link and needs addressing now.


How is the install coming? I'm totally into what's going on for the 4AT.

Also, I'm not clear on what specifically your shifting problem is. Do you mean that it appears to stick a bit before letting you shift? That there is a delay between you manually shifting and response?
"Quote sosonic"

0-7800 RPM: mostly solid shifts - occasionally seems to slip (just a little) when at 7800
7800-8500: few solid shifts - seems to slip into gear most of the time
8500-8700: does not want to shift until I let off and the rpm reaches 8000 then seems to wants to slip into gear.
8700-9000: will not shift period - when rpm drops lower than 8000 then seems to want to slip into gear.
Slip: an extended time between asking for a shift and the reality of the shift without seeming to be in any gear. This varies with the RPM at the time of shift. Yes there is always the chance of "operator error" but the AT/4 even leads itself to compensate for that.

Now I would be worried that my tranny was failing if not for the solid shifts at and below 7800 RPM. I checked the Royal Purple tranny fluid and while not scientific, it does not smell burned and is at the recommended level. Ray will look at the tranny when he's here installing the s/c.

I think that with the install of the s/c and the interceptior X that this is a week link and needs addressing now.


Once you get the SC you will probably find you will be happy with the stock shift rpms .......

How is the install coming? I'm totally into what's going on for the 4AT.

The install is going slowly. Charles R. Hill was here over the weeked doing the install but was not able to complete it.

Sosonic, I'm not sure that you have answered this question before but does the RE-Amemiya flash allow for different shift points? What I'm looking for here is being able to down-shift the AT into 1st at a speed greater than 29 mph.


......."Once you get the SC you will probably find you will be happy with the stock shift rpms" Quote Brettus

You could be right. With the low end power increased my problem may be moot.

Now I have two more weeks to wait - god, the wait is near unbearable.

Phil

The install is going slowly. Charles R. Hill was here over the weeked doing the install but was not able to complete it.



Did you guys run into some sort of difficulties? I thought the Pettit guys said this was an easy install?

Did you guys run into some sort of difficulties? I thought the Pettit guys said this was an easy install?

I was thinking the same thing.
the turbo install i did took longer than planned but thats for a different thread.

Easy install...funny......going FI and easy install typical shouldn't be in the same sentence

Easy install...funny......going FI and easy install typical shouldn't be in the same sentence

Why? It's a bolt-on kit, little to no fabrication required. Unless something was missing, I'm curious what was the problem.

Ah, I'd say lack of directions, and a general lack of pictures, etc...as you mentioned is a major piece missing to install this properly.

It was my understanding a video was going to accompany the kit? Maybe that just isn't ready yet?

I'll probably host a thread on the whole thing and engage in shameless self-promotion like I do with everything else.:)

good info.

I'll probably engage in shameless self-promotion like I do with everything else.:)

I for one approve of your methods...shameless self-promoters unite!

Um...except do it in separate threads to prevent cross-promotion...and conflicting promotions...and try not to perform any holiday promotions...other than that, let's unite and get to shameless promoting...separately...of course...

Since I was unable to have Cam install my s/c, I feel that I would have had many problems if others with less attention to details was installing it. Yes it's not running yet but I know that when it does it will be right. I think Ray's work will be his self promotion and it will be shameless (just like his impersonations). Now off that soap box..................Too bad for Vegas that Phoenix will get him.

It's a great kit and everything is there with it (except instructions). I'm sure that Cam's guys can do one quickly but they must have been part of putting it together.

Wow... The video is really important and should be easy to produce. In fact, the video really should have already been produced since a number of people got the SC installed.

It does not have to be a professional level video. Just show the parts, installing them, and some brief comments. A newer and more professional video can also be done in the future.

^dibs on the the first instructional video that comes out

I have a few questions...
1. I own a 2004 AT (4 speed, 4 port) what would be my max HP achievable?
2. I really don't like the way my car shifts from 2nd to 3rd, it has sort of a delay in between those 2 gears, even manually shifting... It has done it since new. Is there a fix for this?

Wait, you want to figure out a transmission issure - AFTER - you add ~50whp?

Hey, check out:

http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/bulletins.html

Look for HESITATION / IDLE VIBRATION DUE TO CRACKED ENGINE MOUNT

I had this same problem and it was a cracked engine mount. You'll notice when you floor it in 3rd - check the TSB pdf.


I have a few questions...
1. I own a 2004 AT (4 speed, 4 port) what would be my max HP achievable?
2. I really don't like the way my car shifts from 2nd to 3rd, it has sort of a delay in between those 2 gears, even manually shifting... It has done it since new. Is there a fix for this?

Just to throw a little good word into this mix, the s/c is completely installed. To my way of thinking, this is the way it should have come from the factory. CRH install and MM cleaning up the tune has produced what I wanted from the start. All cars are different and the tune that came with the s/c got it running but needed " straighting out" (my words not Mazda Maniac's). I'm not one for dyno runs as I drive on the street not a dyno. I'm happy with it, it's what I hoped for and will let MM and CRH talk about the mechanics and theory of the unit.

:) Glad its running well, and you are pleased with it phil!

there will be releases of stage III kits for AT's but im not going ot give any timelines, because we all know that they change

I saw on the Pettit website that this will be CARB certified, is this still true for the Stage II kit?

:) Glad its running well, and you are pleased with it phil!

I think "pleased" is a little to sedate of a word in relation to the Pettit s/c. Ecstatic would be a better word. Yes it does every thing as advertised and more. I'll be looking forward to the 8psi pulley.