Hi All,

I'll try and cut a loooong story short.

I took my car in yesterday to have the baffles in the sump changed..i recieved a call a few hours later to some bad news.

My dealer told me that there was a problem with my engine and they would have to keep the car until next tuesday or there abouts.. i kept asking q's until they finaly told me that for some reason my engine had been leaking coolant through the housings which were cracked. My car is 1 week old and has 1400kms.

Basicly the engine was shot through..

In return they have offered to replace my engine with a brand new replacement and thats about it...

At this stage I am utterly disgusted with the ordeal and wish i'd never have purchased the only seemingly existant dud.

After talking with a Mazda customer service manager, i requested my car be replaced and/or a refund issued. They have said no no no.

They did initialy offer me an extended warranty and a hire car to which I am not satisfied. Having dealing with them throughout the day I have managed to negotiate an extended warranty and 2 free services (10k - 20k) no hire car.

I personaly feel that i've wasted my 60+ thousand dollar purchase and have lost complete satisfaction with my car. confidence in reliability has sunk to an all time low and only time can tell what the outcome will be..

If anyone can help me here i'd be most appreciative. I do want a replacement car knowing that my car is only a WEEK OLD! However there is still a sour sour taste lingering in my mouth.

This is my 5th mazda car, hows that for goodwill.

KAS
The only way mazda will get you a brand new car and not just a replacement engine is if you have a determined plan .
1ST contact a solicitor ask about your rights , and get solicitor to writte letter to mazda head office ,
2nd Do not negotiate with them only use your solicitor and keep everything in writting , verbal agreements are woth jack shit especially from car dealers .
3rd contact comsumer affairs as to your rights .
Only by yelling long and loud enough will mazda get you .a new car .
contact MALCOLM GOUGH (ceo mazda australia ) let him know your problem use solicitors letter .

Threaten to go public to car magazines etc place adds in newspapers re your experience ,the last thing they want is bad publicity on a brand new car .

If you want a brand new car you have to fight for it , use all types of mediam to discredit the dealer and insist on new car not just the engine .
GOOD LUCK.

Thanks L&L, I have contacted them to reject their petty offer. I went down to see my car (in bits). Its not looking healthy.

I'm awaiting a call from senior management which should be tonight.

Please make note, all readers.

Mazda has been extremely helpfull throughout the process and rest assure this is a one off ocurance. I love the car i really do, i woulnt have sold my s6 for it otherwise.

I dont want to give the car a bad name, all i want is proper justice. Mazda is obliged to fix the problem under warranty, however the car WAS given to me in this condition sold AS NEW NOT demo or 2nd, NEW.

Kas

Really bad luck, mate :eek:

As L&L says, you need to have a carefully thought through strategy on this, and work closely with a solicitor who is well versed in consumer affairs issues. Avoid playing for publicity too early -- it sometimes backfires.

In practice, I have seen cars replaced but this has tended to occur where there has been a series of often unrelated faults -- used to go by the classic 'Monday' or 'Friday' car description -- an obvious lemon.

I am not sure you can make that claim yet. And you need to consider the consequences of making such a claim: it will be a very protracted process, and my bet is that at the end of it, if you were to be successful, they will say "OK, you have now been put on the list for the first available unsecured car, which we expect in Jan 2005 -- after all, we can't hijack someone else's pre-order, can we!"

Perhaps better to play reasonable and get as much support in terms of warranty and servicing, and cost of motoring while your vehicle is off the road -- and I think you need a better deal on all of this than you have thus far -- extended warranty to at least five years, full service costs met through until 100,000k, rental car. I would think Mazda (not the dealer) would ultimately be prepared to agree to something in this space, to avoid any adverse publicity for their no 1 hit just now.


As an aside, a friend of mine had a Range Rover replaced -- about 15 years ago, after a litany of faults and breakdowns (like, 5 pages of them, in the first 9 months). It was a true lemon -- the motor didn't motor, the transmission didn't transmit, and then, of course, it was beset by Lucas, Prince of Darkness! The last straw was when it broke down on a dirt track in the Hunter Valley -- not particularly challenging. Just dumped its transmission fluid out of pure petulance. That was after dumping coolant etc on previous occasions. All photographed

The persuasive factor (apart from my friend being a barrister) was the full page ad he mocked up for insertion in the Financial Review, showing the poor bleeding RR on this dirt track, with text covering the litany of faults. This was sent to the MD of RR Aust, at the end of a series of unhelpful exchanges, accompanied by the note, "this is booked for next Monday's paper!" Not an urban myth -- it really happened!

Unfortunately, you are not in that position and I hope you never are.

Please keep us updated.

Timbo

timbo, thanks for the write up, you really did put some effort into it.

My mazda dealer just called me back and said that after speaking with the customer service manager that I wont get too much further and in-fact they said they should'nt have offered me the extended warranty in the first place. However I will not let this sway my opinion. They are smarter than me and I guess more experianced in this. I'll try stick to my initial idea of a replacement car as I will not be signing any release forms for my current dud.

Any lawyers wanna lend a hand. I'm a 21 year old thats worked hard to save every cent thats gone into this car, i really cant afford legal costs.

Kas - got to say I really second timbo's comments.

This is a great car, and with a new engine it is likely you will once again be happy.

In my experience, legal proceedings never have a happy outcome for either party. It drags on and the resentment and stress just keep on growing.

I recommend driving the best deal you can get from Mazda...and then put it behind you and enjoy the car.

Either way, I think you're right to not sign anything until you've thought it through... good luck !

Thanks for the support.

Still thinking..

Kas,

I'm not sure what I would do in your position and I hope it doesn't happen to me or anyone else.

Take a deep breath. Think about how you want to get out of this situation. You need to decide what you want to do yourself to solve this issue and be firm once you've made your decision.

Let me play devils advocate here for a second though and paint a worst case scenario.

Your engine is a dud - cracked housing - your car is off the road. You yell at the dealer and Mazda -- I want a new car. But, it's not in their financial interests to give you a new car as they'll lose thousands selling it used or as an ex-demo. They're prepared to fight and lets assume they don't care about the publicity, this is a once off.

You go through a long protracted debate, involving lawyers and letters back and forth and hundreds if not thousands of dollars in legal fees. It takes you weeks if not months to sort this out. Meanwhile, your car sits in a garage, unfixed, and depreciating. After a number of weeks or months you end up in in a tribunal and the judge says Mazda was reasonable in their offer to replace your engine, but they don't have to do it - they only need to replace the cracked housing. You get your car back with new housing only.

You're bitter, you're twisted, you want to love the car, but you hate it because of all the pain you've gone through. You sell the car and lose thousands in the process.

Now this is the worst case scenario, but a possible scenario.

Is a new engine with compensation, like what Timbo is suggesting a reasonable outcome, given that you'll be on the road again quickly, with "as good as new"?

Again, I don't know what I would do in your shoes. You need to decide what is your minimum acceptable outcome and work towards ensuring you get at least that. What solution will you be least unhappy with when you look back in three years time at the whole affair?

HTH

sco

Kas Legal aid is wothwhile approach as it is free , talk to them , if all else fails send a mock up copy of a draft add that you will place in every newspaper in australia if your problems arent resolved , the last thing mazda wants is bad publicity , the rx8 is a great car but at1400km to have your problems they should replace your car. often a scarry bluff will get upper management wooried , send a copy to the ceo (malcolm gough )then he will be forced to step in and sort out your problem , dont deal with junior management go straight to the top.

sco, i see your point.

I may be prepared to take up the extended warranty + free servicing for the life of the warranty. Mazda can service their engine as mine is on its way back to japan.

As a worst case thats about it. As far as personal feelings go, the car will never be the same, however over time reliability may make me zoom zoom again.

L&L,

Legaly, Mazda is obliged to fix the problem under warranty, wether it be the housing or a seal. Instead thay have been generous enough to offer a replacement engine, however that car should'nt have been put on the road in the first place.

Its tricky, as mazda is doing what they are obliged to however i'm seeking goodwill and loyalty being my 5th mazda car, and my first brand spanker i really do expect more.

I will be getting a call in the morning from senior management as requested and will see what they have to say. I've heard some horror stories from rx7 owners and their dealings with un-qualified mazda technitions. I'd rather take my 8 to MazTech of melbourne and have them do the work.

KAS

Talk to the horses head and not its tale , senior management will be embaressed if you present your views to the ceo of mazda , because he then will be made aware of the situation and will then tell senior management to resolve things quicker , i have spoken to Malcolm GOUGH and he is a reasonable bloke if you can not speak to him e-mail him , often middle management are restrained in their decisions , and have to play by the rules
malcolm can overide anything appeal to his human nature .

eg ;; 21years old ,1st new car , worked hard to buy dream car , owned 5 other mazdas etc .
Best of luck.
michael

Will do Mike, Thanks heaps for your help!!

"The shell is for you and the shell is for me, the pearl is but the lawyer's fee".

Keep is personal, honest and passionate.

The Japanese are known for their pride in their deevelopments and the products they produce. I believe that you will receive the best possible service and gain the right outcome if you make the effort to contact and discuss your problem with the right people in an open and sensible manner.

On the "lemon car" issue, engines are not built on the same line as the car. If your car is good and your engine is bad, your existing car and a new engine is a good thing, don't stress on the offer of an engine replacement.

Things go wrong and warranties are there to protect you. I know the engine is a major component - but it's not the whole car.

Mazda Australia will do everything to protect their local profitability, A quirk with a bad engine, replaced and a happy customer is good press - a drawn our legal wrangle is bad press....

If you go for the gun, get ready to be shot. There are better solutions.

My 2 cents, Kev.

Kev, i read ya.

Who knows, the engine may out-preform most others..

My point is, if the car had been fixed prior to selling it wouldnt have been sold as new.

Trouble is, the only thing we can't change is history :D

Of all of us, you'll probably have the opportunity to get to know more useful people inside Mazda personally and end up with a car that's been checked over far better than any pre delivery wizz through.

I know it's a crap feeling to be dealt a bad hand, but there's a set of rules in place that ensure that you'll come out on top as long as you play the game the right way.

Me? I'd just say "Looks guys, I could be your best advert or your worst nightmare - just do a fair thing by be and I'll be happy and I won't hesitate when it comes to singing your praises."

Nobody can afford a bad customer these days if they have one ounce of grey matter. (or is it gram these days?)

Kas,

I agree with those posters who have advised caution. I can understand your disappointment, but they have offered to rectify the problem. These things will happen - that's what statistics is all about. 99.99% fault-free means 0.01% problems. That's what the warranty is there for. It's not a lemon like the Range Rover mentioned previously. I note you are 21. You won't remember the days when quality control in the automobile industry was non-existent. This is one of the reasons for the dominance of the Japanese in the car game.

By all mans try and negotiate a few sweeteners on top of the new motor, but don't get lawyered up about this. It really is a no win situation. There are those who have sufficient time and money to enjoy the legal argy bargy, but the rest of us would rather chew broken glass than associate with lawyers.

Do what others have suggested: sit down, decide what you want (NOT a new car - you have a duff motor - the rest of the car is presumably OK), and work hard to get your car with replacement engine back on the road as soon as possible, plus get a few extras on the side. A sensible Mazda dealer will want your car back for servicing (they make lots of money out of their service department), so as long as you are reasonable in your demands, you'll get something out of it.

I'll speak to Mazda ceo tomorrow, and make my decision based on what they have to say.

I dont want this to drag on, however by the sounds of it, i've purchased the worst rx8 yet.

I've got an idea as to what I want in return, and yes its realistic. Extended warranty and free servicing, i do think thats fair concidering the history that the car has obtained in its first week.

One other bit of leverage you may have with them. In america, when you have repairs done, you have the right to keep the old parts that were removed if you so request in writing. If that's true where you live, request to keep the old engine. They will freak and say you can't, which will be bogus (if your laws are like ours.) I know they'll wanna send your old engine back to the factory for a post mortem. Use this as leverage to get what you want. Best wishes and sorry 'bout the bad deal.

KAS you keep saying things like "they shouldn't have sold it as new." do you have reason to believe that this car was a demonstrator and they failed to tell you this? if you have some kind of proof of this than you should use it. how many Kilometers were on the odometer when you picked it up?

The Car had 2.1kms on the clock, i was very specific about this when I ordered it.

I spoke to mazda ceo earlier, he said they they cant offer a replacement car for a few reasons, and I guess a main reason is the fact that they dont have any here which is bullsh*t, however I did say that an extended warranty and free servicing for the life of the warranty would put a sweeter taste in my mouth about the situation.

I dont think its that much to ask for.

Kas

Stick to your guns with that request:

Extended warranty
Free servicing for the life of that warranty
Free loaner car while yours is off the road and at all service points.

I think we all agree that is fair and reasonable, whereas a replacement car is asking too much -- it's just the motor -- and persisting on that will just bring the shutters down.

I also liked the idea about access to your old parts -- am not sure of the situation in Australia but I have certainly had the old parts given to me in the past (BMW did this) and it seems logical as they are yours.

I would say that reasonable compensation and the cost of them not giving you back the original motor -- which is your property and which, presumably, Mazda want (and we all want them to have, for research) is the warranty, service and loan car.

Get firm in your mind what you want, be resolute and stick to it -- they can't just take your motor back without your permission, at the very least.

Timbo

Yeah, I feel my new request is realistic and fair to both parties.

I want Mazda to take the engine for research for the benefit of all our cars. It may be a problem in the making that others have overlooked. The reason the problem was found was when I had the sump removed and some coolant was noticed, the car however was still running fine..

Exactly Kas, it's in all our (and Mazda's) interests, and what you are seeking is fair and reasonable compensation.

Now, mine is getting done tomorrow, and I hope there are no nasty surprises :eek:

Timbo

Yeah, it may be worth a mention to get them to check. I even had coolant on the top of the engine let along in the sump!

My dealer has told me that there has been alot of calls to them from other dealers concerned with the problem and seeking a possible reason/solution.

KAS my motto is to always negotiate softly but always carry a big stick .

The Car had 2.1kms on the clock, i was very specific about this when I ordered it.



Kas -- I just saw this. Interesting. The 8 is my 6th *new* Mazda. From memory, I have never picked one up from the dealer with less than 20k on the clock because I am sure they are all supposed to have undergone at least a 10k test at factory before shipment. If your car missed that test.....!

Anyone else with views on this or similar experience with new Mazdas?

Timbo

My RX8 had about 7~9km I think at pickup time.

I'm not certain about 20km being the norm though.

My wife's Mazda 6 had over 50km on the odo. The car was sourced from a dealer in or near Gosford/Central Coast (NSW). I know my local dealer didn't take it joy riding - yes, I am casting doubt on the ethics of the Central Coast dealer.

Personally, I think the "throw on the trade plates and go for a whirl" game should be banned. It's not at all fair to the new car buyer. Who's to say a goon didn't drive KAS's car round the block and redline it cold? Hmm?

Kas

My sympathies go out to you.. its a crappy situation but it seems that your approach is wise.

In the art of negtiation its wise to position your first claim so that there is some room to scale down your request to get what you really want but at the same time, not too big so as to provoke the other party to think you are greedy.

In this case, if you want free maintenance and loan cars for the life of the warranty then you would be best served asking for a bit more (window tinting, strakes, rotary accents or whatever). As the negotiations roll, you can show you are 'reasonable' by giving back a bit to show you will compromise.

The important part is to ensure that all parties are satified by 'leaving some cake on the table'

Greed is not good in negotiation

Good Luck Mate

Rob

Ok, a decision has been made.

In respect to confidentiality between Mazda and myself all I wish to say is that the result has been excellent and my two thumbs up to all involved at Mazda for their speedy and understanding approach.

Go Mazda! Zoom Zoom =)

Good shot, kas -- hope it is all making you feel good again about this great car

Timbo

This is what we like to hear!

Congrats kas

only don't tell us they shut you up by offering you a new engine with a super charger :D :D :D

haha I Wish.

I was actually talking to them how I will/would be doing the turbo conversion when the car hit 10,000kms and they insturcted me that the engine will not be able to handle that and it was never designed for it. They also said that the new RX-7 in 2005-2006 will be a tripple rotor 1.5lt making around 245Kw..

All in all, the result was great. Lets hope yours is with your car also Kev.

Kas
Good to see your problem has been resolved , but why is mazda gagging you from telling us what happened to your engine.

They'd prefer confidentiality with the dealings we have had.

Hint: what engine?

Good news... glad you are happy with the result. How soon will you be back on the road?

Originally posted by Kas
. They also said that the new RX-7 in 2005-2006 will be a tripple rotor 1.5lt making around 245Kw..


Sorry that sounds wrong somewhere.

Current renasis is 2 rotor , 1.3 litre, 3 rotoes @ rx-8 size would be 2lt.

I heard it was going to be a 2 rotor, but slightly bigger - which may explain the 1.5ltr.

Thats arguable. You see, some call each rotor to be 1.3 lt, therfor a 13b would in theory be a 2.6 lt. However being a 1.5, would mean that its actually 4.5lt..make sense?

So will your refreshed RX8 make it to the meet on Sunday or are we going to see you fang around in a Mazda 2?

You can always "admire but dont touch" all our cars.

I also have an extra red leather coming as well as my poor blue one. I think that is 7 now

Nope, I wont be there. No car whatsoever at the moment.

I will wait for the next cruize scheduled for november/december when the new rx8 owners take delivery of the new shipment*

Hooray for Consumer rights !!!

One tip, if they ask you to sign a release of any sort, its best if you doesn't impose any llimits on you re further and future claims.


The one nagging question this situation poses is if there were any symptoms of trouble in your 1400 km.

Rob

PS How long will you wait for your new car, I hear the current queue is 4 months long!

Originally posted by Kas
Thats arguable. You see, some call each rotor to be 1.3 lt, therfor a 13b would in theory be a 2.6 lt. However being a 1.5, would mean that its actually 4.5lt..make sense?

IT is very wrong Kas. Each rotor of the RX8 only had 654 cc. Make it 1.3L in twin rotors. In fact it has 2 equv piston cycle to each rev. that equal to the capacity of 2.6L.

The way I think about that is one part of the rotary is exhausting - one piston action and on the other part of the rotary is injecting fuel - another piston... Am I right?

Each cycle is how much ? On erach cycle there is 3 explosions.

Don't forget there's a rotor spin to crank spin ratio.

So lets ask...

A) How many combustion cycles occur per actual crank revolution in a four cylinder 4 stroke engine???

I think it's 2

B) How many combustion cycles occur per actual crank revolution in a 2 rotor engine???

I think is 2 also (if the rotor to crank ration is 1 to 3.

Then the rotary uses all of it's displacement for every crank revolution, where the four stroke only uses half. So the scaling factor should be "2". (This relieves on the assumed 3 to 1 crank to rotor ratio)

Help me here, this is applied thinking, not acquired fact.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: You are confusing me..> It is only an academic excercise.

How can a piston has 2 combustion per cycle?... anyhow. I go and read the RX8 book again to understand the engine as people will ask me about how rotary engine works when they see my car

Imagine a triangle. It has 3 sides. Each side of the triangle has an action before completing a round trip. Meaning there is 3 explosions before a cycle is completed. Making sense?

Originally posted by takahashi
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: You are confusing me..> It is only an academic excercise.

How can a piston has 2 combustion per cycle?... anyhow. I go and read the RX8 book again to understand the engine as people will ask me about how rotary engine works when they see my car

A 4 stroke engine only produces power during the combustion stroke (induction,compression,combustion,exhaust)
or down,up,down,up - in this time, the crank shaft has turned twice.

A rotary goes bang,bang,bang in one revolution of the rotor and the crank shaft has been turned 3 times.

This is when I start turning to the white board :(

So for each bang (using the displacement of a "piston" area) one rotor in a rotary effectively turns the crank once, while a four stroke piston only gets a "bang" at the crank once every two revolutions.

Clear as mud?

Originally posted by Kev


A rotary goes bang,bang,bang in one revolution of the rotor and the crank shaft has been turned 3 times.

So for each bang (using the displacement of a "piston" area) one rotor in a rotary effectively turns the crank once, while a four stroke piston only gets a "bang" at the crank once every two revolutions.

Clear as mud?

So how come people say the RX8 equv to a 2.6L four stroke then?

Originally posted by takahashi


So how come people say the RX8 equv to a 2.6L four stroke then?

Because the maths works out that way.

Try imagining a four rotor wankel next to a four cylinder piston engine.

Both engines cranks are turning at the same speed. A stand alone piston fires once every two revolutions of the old four stroke, but on the rotary - each rotation of the crank shaft is only a one third movement of the rotor and one combustion.

Put simply, with the 3:1 rotor to crank ratio - the wankel is giving you twice as much use of your engine's displacement.

Hey, I'm not particularly good at explaining things - that's why I write software...

Originally posted by timbo
The 8 is my 6th *new* Mazda. From memory, I have never picked one up from the dealer with less than 20k on the clock because.....

Anyone else with views on this or similar experience with new Mazdas?

Timbo

This is my 5th new Mazda, and none of them have had more than 10km on the clock. The first drive they get is out of the factory onto a ship. The second drive they get is off the ship. The marvels of modern quality production!

Cheers,
Hymee.

The displacement thing...

This is all complex as the accpeted way of measuring the displacement of a piston engine is by looking at the volume of all cylinders. I.e. 4 cylinders of 250cc each = 2 litres, or 8 cylinders of 712.5cc = 5.7L.

So Mazda say there are 2 combustion chambers of 654cc each = 1.3L displacement. The difference is in how often the 654cc of mixture is inhaled, and burned to make power.

Think about a single cylinder (reciprocatin) 4 stroke engine of 654cc. The "displacement" of 654cc of air/fuel mixture produce one "bang" or power pulse for every 2 revolutions of the output shaft.

Compare this to a SINGLE ROTOR rotary engine with a chamber volume of 654cc, and look at the attached animation.

The rotor turns at 1/3rd the speed of the output shaft. Each time the output shaft has turned 1 full revolution, there has been one power pulse from a 654cc volume of air/fuel mixture.

Therefore, the rotary engine produces twice as many "bangs" per engine revolution as an equivalent capacity 4 stroke. Or think of it this way - for 2 revolutions of the output shaft of the single rotor - we get the "effectiveness" of 1308 cc of air/fuel, compared to 654cc in the piston engine.

(It is a little bit like comparing a 654cc 2-stroke with a 654cc 4-stroke.)

So - we take our single rotor 654cc, and put another rotor on it - that makes it into a 13B. For each revolution of the output shaft, we get 2616cc of air/fuel burning.

So a twin rotor rotary of 654cc displacement (per chamber) is "equivalent" to a 4 stroke of 2.6L

Comparing the 2 rotor to a multi-cylinder piston engine... Our 2 rotor gives 2 power pulses per revolution. With a 4-stroke piston engine you get one power stroke per 2 revolutions per cylinder. So to achieve the same number of power pulses/revolution as the rotary, the piston engine needs to have 4 cylinders ( = 4 power pulses for 2 revolutions, which is equivalent to 2 power pulses / revolution).

A 2.6L four is a bit "big" to have a nice reving engine though, (due to the large pistons/reciprocating masses) :)

The other thing that makes it a little more complex, is that the tourqe fluctuations in the rotary produce power for more degress of crankshaft revolution than in a piston engine. So the torque fluctuation (smoothness) is more comparable to a 6 cylinder 4-stroke piston engine.

There you go. I write software, and now I think I can explain things as well :p

insert :teacher: smilie here ;)

Cheers,
Hymee.

And Kas,

Great news, whatever it is... :cool:

I would have been happy for a free new engine (or a free condensor in my case).

Cheers,
Hymee.