I've been reading posts in the Tech Garage section about the aftermarket exhaust systems and their claims that they can increase horsepower as mush as 10 hp.

Since the cost of a Borla System is being quoted at about $560 with less than an hour installation time I'm wondering why Mazda hasn't offered anything like this to us.

I'm assuming either they don't agree with the added horsepower assesments; they are concerned about how this would affect the engine or they don't want to be put in a position that would require them to provide this modification to all future cars.

The current offer would easily offset the costs for this modification if the increase is there and there are no significant downsides.

What are your thoughts?

I seem to remember something like this with a Mustang Cobra a few yrs back and Ford's remedy was to install new exhaust and intake from aftermarket sources to raise the HP to the quoted levels. I'm guessing that Mazda is letting us RX-8 owners decide how we want to deal with the issue instead of making an arbitrary decision for us. In most cases, installing an aftermarket exhaust will significantly increase not only air-flow, but noise as well. By giving us the money to modify our cars as we wish, Mazda is recognizing their error, but not dictating our resolution. Perhaps an owner is fully satisfied with the power of their RX-8 and likes a quiet exhaust....then the $500 could be used for other goodies (dressup or otherwise).

Keep the shiny side up!

if I remember correctly the HP issue was with the 99-00 Cobra. Ford placed a factory recall because cars were advertised to produce 320hp and were unable to outrun the 260hp GT. Fords response to this was to remove 2 catalytic converters and replace the other 2 with higher flowing pieces. They also removed the resonators. From what I understand Ford not only met but excceeded their previous claim of 320hp. I have a buddy who says his car is closer to 335hp. I would actually prefer the Borla system factory installed, first for warranty reasons and secondly, if I had a $500 visa card laying around my wife would use it to buy "girl-crap". This motor has a lot more to offer than 238hp. It's just going to take a bit of time to figure out what mods work best. Don't think Mazda will rest on their laurels.

I'm just glad my 500 is on the way and I look forward to exhaust, intake and header mods

First thanks for these responses. It seems I'm not the only one that has considered this.

Two issues were raised, one regarding additional noise and the other regarding warranty.

On the warranty, other posts indicate that the Mazda warranty would remain intact except on the exhaust system unless a problem were traced to the exhaust modification. Also. Borla has a lifetime warranty on their exhausts. Do you all think that a Mazda dealer could be trusted to install this? According to Borla it's a simple 30 minute job.

On the noise issue other posts on this site claim no decibel increase but instead a tonal change. The current pipe is nice but I'm not sure a lower tone would be offensive enough to offset the advantage of increased hp.

Does anyone disagree about the claimed increases?

honestly I wouldn't have mazda install exhaust
I'm in cali and there is many aftermarket tuner shops that I think will go a beter and probably less expensive install

i think the horsepower issue stems from everybody burning rich, since rotarys arent known for quality emmisions i dont think an "aftermarket" exhaust is something Mazda can do
regardless of raw numbers, its still pulling 14.5's like they said

are you saying an added 10 hp will not increase performance?

Well, Mazda DID say that subtracting 9 hp didn't affect performance... :-D

As for Mazda using the Borla (or any aftermarket) exhaust as a remedy for their power problems...I don't see it happening. There are potential for noise and emmissions issues...not that a cat-back is going to really affect emissions, but is it CARB certified yet? Well, maybe...but Mazda isn't going to want to get into dealing with all of that for some aftermarket piece. Plus, how can they deny your warranty claims due to unapproved exhaust if they're the ones who put it on? (Cynical? Me?)

jds

Mazda designed the car to be as quiet as possible. For no apparant reason, all RX-7's have also been VERY quiet stock - seems like they'd let a little noise out of the car considering it's a sports car :). I can sympathize with the '8, since it's supposed to be a more comfortable sports car for budding families.

Anyhow, Mazda does have pretty strict noise regulations they have to meet as a car manufacturer, same as emissions regulations. As a user, these regulations don't mean much - we're not held to the same standard. Makes sense, considering the majority of the cars on the road aren't modified in any way - most of the cars on the road are quiet :).

There is absolutely zero rocket science involved installing a cat-back - even with inadequate tools and doing it the first time, you're looking at maybe an hour. Fortunately this will be on a relatively new car that doesn't have an exhaust that's rusted together :). There's two nuts that hold the cat-back to the cat, then a few rubber hangers that you have to slip off - that's it, the cat-back is on the ground. Paying someone to install a cat-back should be a crime :). I could almost understand on an American car that has to have the exhaust cut and welded to remove or install new stuff, but on a Japanese car it's all bolt- on.

Dale

Thanks for the installation info. :)

This noise issue has got me going! Am I going to sound like a kid racer? I don't want to be getting fines for noise polution.

I'm going to ask Borla about the warranty, emissions and noise issues raised here.

Any further comments are appreciated.

Thanks

Peter, don't worry about borla's sound. They are arguably the best exhaust manufacturer in the world. The tone of a Brola system is very much like a snarl. Think 2003 Mustang GT without the volume and you'll get the point. I used Borla on my supercharged Contour SVT and it was AMAZING. Around 4500rpms the car almost roared at passerbys! Borlas don't make volume increases as much as tonal changes. the deep, slight burble (from a piston engine) is very nice. I'm not real sure how the rotory engine will sound, but I can't imagine Borla releasing substandard equipment.

I own a 2001 Mustang with a Borla cat-back exhaust (yes I know it isn't an 8, but just hang with me here). First off I must say that the Borla exhaust is exquisite. It is 100% stainless steel with mandrel bent piping. Second, as far as I know all of Borla's mufflers and cat-backs have a million mile warrantee. The steel will not rust over time.

The sound on my Mustang is amazing. At idle it rumbles. At WOT it rips. If you drop off after WOT it pops and sutters.... sounds great! Borla mufflers don't drone like some other performance mufflers such as Flowmasters and such and it doesn't sound fake like Spintechs (which sound annoyingly raspy) or rice-ish such as Magnaflows. You won't get pulled over for noise. It isn't like a kazoo ricer muffler.

I recently moved to California in 2002 with my Mustang. I had installed the cat-back earlier that year. Upon switching to a Ca resident, I had to go to one of the certified smog places (you know... the kind that don't cheat). Basically they made me take off my CAI because it wasn't CARB certified, but they allowed me to get tested with the exhaust. The guy didn't look twice. Additionally, it didn't change my emissions profile. If anything it had less pollutants than with my stock exhaust.

The Borla cat-backs usually consist of pipes which you bolt together. The fit is good. The exhaust hangers/brackets they provided with the kit were a little bit shotty looking, but they are much stronger than the stock exhaust hangers (your not going to see them anyway). Install on my mustang took only 2 hours (took us 1 and 1/2 hours to remove the stock exhaust).

Before I get flamed.... I am working on a deal now. I just need to get a good trade-in value on my stang.

I dont know
borla is american
Borla is good for mustang,svt,camaro
But, I think I'm gonna wait for greddy, HKS and others for my exhaust

hahaha, racist!!

most of you whining about 10hp can't even drive the full 238..

you dont even have the car

Originally posted by mikeb
I dont know
borla is american
Borla is good for mustang,svt,camaro
But, I think I'm gonna wait for greddy, HKS and others for my exhaust

Sounds like an SCC article, LOL. Ohhh ahhh, it needs to be JDM or it isn't cool.

Have any of you heard/seen the ad for spiralmax? It is a small device that fits inside of (i'm not very technical, sorry) a car's air hose and creates a vortex of air that is supposedly supposed to increase HP and gas mileage.... Anyone tried it out? They boast an increase of HP ranging from 0-11 HP or so.

Originally posted by Winning_BlueRX8
Have any of you heard/seen the ad for spiralmax? It is a small device that fits inside of (i'm not very technical, sorry) a car's air hose and creates a vortex of air that is supposedly supposed to increase HP and gas mileage.... Anyone tried it out? They boast an increase of HP ranging from 0-11 HP or so.

put on your flame suit, then seach for the vortex intake. sounds like the same thing. total joke.

think about it
How many mustangs , camaros, firebirds use apex, blitz, HKs exhaust.
They dont they use borla, flowmaster , etc

Originally posted by mikeb
think about it
How many mustangs , camaros, firebirds use apex, blitz, HKs exhaust.
They dont they use borla, flowmaster , etc

What is the relevance of your statement?

point being
most american cars use american products
most imports use import parts

Originally posted by mikeb
point being
most american cars use american products
most imports use import parts

There will be alot of aftermarket american parts for the 8. I think I will buy from the locals, that way if I need tech support it's easy to communicate.

what are you saying people that work for greddy in Irvine california can't speak english

How about buying the best performing, best quality product, be it Japanese, American, or Martian.

This thread represents the problem I see in the whole performance car scene.

The domestic guys thinks all Japanese cars are junk fit for weenies

The import guys thinks all American cars are junk fit for rednecks.

Why can't we just respect all cars and each other? Honestly who cares where does stuff are made as long as it fits your need.

Amen to that. Maybe some of you import guys are new to the rotary scene, but companies like Racing Beat, Pettit Racing, PFS, M2 Performance, SR Motorsports...the list goes on and on and on...have been supplying home-grown goodies for rotary powered Japanese vehicles for years.

jds

Borla's exhaust is very popular among the Z community, along with Stillen. They are both American companies. Both produce high-quality exhaust systems made entirely of stainless steel.

Go to any Z forum, you will find that a lot of people go to Borla or Stillen for their exhaust upgrade. The 350Z does not have a true dual exhaust, so its a popular mod for those looking to increase the Z's HP/Torque. From what I have read, typical gain is about 10+HP for the Z.

I would imagine that the RX-8 would benefit from an aftermarket exhaust upgrade as well, just like the Z.

Originally posted by mikeb
what are you saying people that work for greddy in Irvine california can't speak english

I didn't say anything remotely close to that. Your comment about Borla being American and only good for domestics seemed a bit off base. Also, buying parts from Japan are expensive and not always the best, hence jds's post:

"Amen to that. Maybe some of you import guys are new to the rotary scene, but companies like Racing Beat, Pettit Racing, PFS, M2 Performance, SR Motorsports...the list goes on and on and on...have been supplying home-grown goodies for rotary powered Japanese vehicles for years.

jds"

Originally posted by bureau13
Amen to that. Maybe some of you import guys are new to the rotary scene, but companies like Racing Beat, Pettit Racing, PFS, M2 Performance, SR Motorsports...the list goes on and on and on...have been supplying home-grown goodies for rotary powered Japanese vehicles for years.

jds

Yes, good quality products that work.

To throw some info out -

I've seen/installed nearly every exhaust system for an RX-7 you can think of. Here's my take -

Japanese exhaust manufacturers put a LOT of work into an exhaust system. You typically see very precision fit, excellent sound and performance. There's usually a range, too - quieter systems with less performance, and louder "race" systems with more performance, not a one size fits all exhaust. They spend a LOT of time with the design of the system for the best sound - Japanese are very picky on how a system sounds, and they put a lot of work into that.

Japanese exhausts are also typically better built. If the system has to be in multiple parts, they will join with a flange, and the kit will come with high-quality hardware and gaskets. Many American manufacturers use muffler clamps or the like - SUPER cheesy. I've also seen less attention to an exact fit with American systems - the tailpipe won't line up with the muffler cutout well, you have to jockey with it to keep it from hitting the frame, etc.

But, Borla does make a quality product. I've personally never cared for their "intercooled" tips - they look OK, and the finish is usually a bit lacking. But, yes, they are all stainless, and the muffler is of high quality.

Right now I think the only systems available are "local" - the Japanese have RE Amemiya, FEED, etc. which aren't typically distributed in the US. We have Borla, which isn't typically distributed in Japan. It's gonna take a little time for the "big guns" (HKS, Apexi, Greddy/TRUST, Blitz) to get their products out, and they'll be commonly available on both sides of the pond. They all make VERY high quality systems.

The "ricey" sounding systems are typically not systems at all, just mufflers. You can get cheap $100 made in Taiwan mufflers, have an exhaust shop hack off your muffler and weld it on, and you'll be buzzin' along. Get a real system, and you'll be well ahead quality-wise.

Dale

Looks to me that torque when the Borla unit is added is slightly lower up to about 5000rpm at which point it is slightly higher to redline.

Is the consensus that this in fact will reduce performance? What about the increased hp's impact?


Also, sounds to me like it is probably a good idea to wait a year or so to see more developed performance products.


Does anyone have any sense of what can be expected in performance enhancements?

Does anyone have any info on Mazda's plans to provide a means of recapturing lost hp?

Appreciate any responses.

what I want is a full titanium system in 2.5 and 3'' for less weight and higher quality, 3'' obviously for a turbo aplication

thats excatly what I'm saying Dale

At least look at made in USA performance parts.

...and what's wrong with Australian Made???

When we actually make something that is :(

Originally posted by Kev
...and what's wrong with Australian Made???

When we actually make something that is :(

You guys make an awesome KTM. Wait a second... That would be Austria. Sorry ;)

Originally posted by Kev
...and what's wrong with Australian Made???

When we actually make something that is :(

Considering the Aussies and Kiwis have the market cornered when it comes to aftermarket fuel injection (Motech, Haltech, Microtech, Wolf, et al) that's your contribution :).

Dunno what they put in the water over there that makes folks want to churn out EFI systems...

Dale

I have had the opportunity to hear a wide range of exhaust systems on naturally aspirated and turbo rotary engines alike, although most of my personal experience is on 3rd gens. I have had a few different exhaust combinations on my FD, and right now I prefer my current which is no cats, a 3" inlet/outlet magnaflow oval muffler and a Apex GT Spec Catback. Unlike FD's with a midpipe and Apex GT Catback, or even Catalytic Converter and Apex GT Catback, the sound is smooth and loud but not too loud, rather than "rattly". Originally I had an HKS turbo exhaust, which was quiet, barely louder than stock, then just Apex GT Catback and midpipe, crazy loud, then the magnaflow muffler, which quieted it down a bit and sounds better IMO. My friend has a Borla "prototype" catback that was installed on his car orginally as a testbed for a catback system that was never manufactured, and it sounds really good as well, a nice solid whoom sound. Naturally aspirated rotaries tend to have an even more rattly weed whacker like sound with open exhaust because it doesnt have a turbo to muffle the exhaust, and I think if I put an exhaust on my RX-8 its going to be magnaflow.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gr8rx
what I want is a full titanium system in 2.5 and 3'' for less weight and higher quality, 3'' obviously for a turbo aplication [/QUOTE

This comes up a lot and it's really all about price. We have the ability to make all of our products out of titanium however the price increase is very substantial. More often than not, the few benefits of titanium are greatly outweighed by the cost.

If you dont mind what would be the cost on that set up