As the owner of an '04 RX-8 GT A/T I have absoultely had it with this car. Aside from the multiple little things.... interior rattling, creaks, sunroof issues, etc. I've had multiple run-ins with the mechanical troubles of this car, everything from the no-start scenario due to flooding, weak starter, what have you.... to heavy engine vibration, stalling, lack of acceleration power, surging, etc. etc. etc.

This car has been treated like a baby.... I've used only premium fuel since day one, have changed the oil to spec. and have had every service recall to date. I've called Mazda Corporate a few times to address these issues, and while I have been covered every time to have the car looked at or repaired, the issues still remain.

According to my dealership, they have been unable to replicate these problems and I was not a candidate for the engine replacement program as they said it passed all the tests. I've had the plugs changed, the starter replaced, the coils replaced, the engine mounts replaced.... but just this morning the car stalled on a heavy traffic road while at a red light after driving the car for 20 minutes and I then spent the next 10 minutes going throught the no start scenario while scores of drivers behind me were all too eager to give me the one-finger salute, not to mention making me late to work. Immediately, I called the dealership and spoke to the service manager (who knows me on a first name basis) and he said to bring it in again.

Not sure what to do anymore..... this is becoming epidemic. I keep bringing it in, and the problems continue to go unresolved. Anyone familiar with Lemon Laws?

sorry to hear of your problems :( www.lemonlaw.com

Yikes Kid, sorry to hear you're having so many issues with your 8! I
've had some of the issues you listed (sunroof, rattles, engine mounts) but all I can tell you is that it really comes down to your local dealership and how they handle each situation that will vasty determine how you ultimately feel about your car and it's "quirks"

As for lemon laws: they vary quite a bit from State to State so I might suggest making a similar post in the Regional forum that includes Florida.

Not to rub salt in an open wound but maybe you just got a the bad apple from the bunch...it unfortunately does happen from time to time with all car manufacturers. Hope all gets resolved for you soon

sucks for u I'm sure, mysteries of life and RX-8s and all that :banghead:.....perhaps another dealer even thou this 1 tries could get to the root cause....that this 1 hasn't obviously found.... try to hang in there :sad:

good job

sorry bout your car. i had mine since 04 and i never had issues with it. but your car sounds it has never seen a good day. i hope thngs work out in the future, and maybe its time to trade in the car for something else.

I appreciate the suggestions.... the thing is, the next closest Mazda dealer is far away (especially with how often I find myself needing to go there). Additionally, this is one of the larger more acclaimed Mazda dealerships/service facilities in the area. What pains me is WHEN the car runs great, it just runs great and is a truly fun car to own. But.... these problems are intermittent and like a doctor's office, when you go in for a checkup, things suddenly are better. What I'm concerned about is what happens when this car is OUT of warranty. Am I then going to be responsible for the repair costs that I have desperately tried to correct when the car WAS under warranty?

I completely understand all cars have their quirks, bugs, etc. but the fact that is has not been remedied is getting old already. I have a service appointment AGAIN tomorrow morning.... we'll see what happens this time.

At least you have a 5yr warranty...unless you drive alot!

I have an '05, and (knock on wood) but I haven't had a single issue with it. It's only been back to the delaer for regular maintenance and the engine recall.

But I went through an ordeal similar to yours with a '97 Honda Accord. Constant surging, stalling, misfires during acceleration, 15 mpg mileage, 20 mph swings in speed with the cruise control on, etc etc. It developed these problems shortly after I purchased it (new). It went back to the dealer on 5 separate occasions. The first two times they said they had made some adjustments and it was fixed. Not. The second two times the report came back that they could not duplicate the problem and that nothing was wrong (just me and my imagination, I guess). The final time I was told that this behavior was "normal" for an Accord with a manual transmission. I had contacted Honda's division headquarters after the 3rd trip (when "no problem existed"), and they offered little help. After the 5th trip, I made copies of all the service reports, and sent them along with a letter via certified mail, return receipt to Honda North America. The letter was polite and professional, but also quite clear that if they chose to do nothing about the problem(s), I would have no choice but to begin legal proceedings. About a week after I sent the letter, I got a call from Honda corporate, and to make a long(er) story shorter, they provided me a loaner while they kept the car for about a week. At the end it was fixed, and was apparently something with the computer or the wiring to the computer that was causing all the problems.

I'm only relating this because you might give the certified letter angle a try first. Lemon law proceedings can work, but they can also be a major time sink, especially when you might have a dealer saying that they can't ever duplicate the problem(s) you're having. Hope things work out for you, man.

Best,
Bill

First mistake - You baby the car
Second Mistake - You whine too much
Third mistake - You didnt do your homework before buying
Forth mistake - You trust your dealership too much

The stuff that you've said applies to every single line-ups out there. You just having some bad luck. Have you ever thought about the problem is you ? not the car ?

^^Haha!!

It sounds like a flaky computer to me, or a short in a harness (perhaps it is jostled before each incident). Remember these cars use an electric throttle body and if the computer wants it can cut the throttle at any time. I would see if they would be willing to do something similar to what Rotario did with his Honda.

As for things you can do, watch every variable you can and try to get the car to reproduce the problems. If you have the equipment you could ohm out the plug wires as well as different sensors on the motor like MAF and throttle. If you have a screwdriver and a plug wrench you can check the spark. Creaking is probably just because the vehicle is very stiff, what are the roads that you drive on like? I would also recommend checking your oil often and watch for it to go down, this way you know that the MOP is working.

NYCGPS, Are you even worthy of a response?

NYCGPS, Are you even worthy of a response?
Well, let's look at these two at least:

First mistake - You baby the car
Forth mistake - You trust your dealership too much

I'm not being a horses ass here, He really does have two good points but maybe presented them a little harshley.

You really do need to drive the crap out of this car some. I've been shifting gears lately around 3700 RPM to try to conserve gas but i always make a point to blow it out some on the way home form work. I don't mean driving 125MPH I just mean red line in 1st, 2nd and keep it high in 3rd for a while before settling down. I try to do this several times a day at least.

As far as the dealership goes.. he is correct. Look for another one that will help you troubleshoot.

I'd look a little deeper into some post as you may find some very good advice.

I've had some of the issues you mentioned but my service department has been great at fixing them. Things like the rattle in the sun roof was covered by warranty. They replaced the moving hardware. Most of the other items were fixed with no problem.

It is possible you do have a lemon but it sounds more to me that your service department is a lemon.

NYCGPS, Are you even worthy of a response?

he does have a point about babying the car - those of us who thrash the crap out of them seem to have less issues .

A redline a day keeps the rotary mechanic away

By babying the car, as I explained in my first post, meant that it has been treated per Mazda's specs for this car by always using Premium fuel and always staying on top of oil consumption and oil changes/regular maintenence.

By babying the car, as I explained in my first post, meant that it has been treated per Mazda's specs for this car by always using Premium fuel and always staying on top of oil consumption and oil changes/regular maintenence.
Do you drive it hard some?

plus after 2000+ posts i think he has a basic idea what he's doing and it atleast shows that he's been around longer then you (kidryno) and plus he good points

yea no problems here yet....

if you dont want it ill take it off your hands...i could use another rotary.

:spank: this is such a sad story of what happens to so many who really care for there cars and the dealer will not back the person up or belieaves that the problem is there at all.i work in a dealership with new cars (ok ok they are fords)but at the same time i like the fact that i take the time to do whatever it takes to find the problem.most people won't mind if you keep there car for a short period of time to find out what the problem.this is the only way they can understand your facts is to have it happen to them.when all fails please try another dealership with better customer relations then the one your using.i have had problems with my 8 and i am very happy to say Browns Mazda has taken care of every problem i gave them to fix with out question of how it happened or if it's covered or not .the fact is they heard my complant and took care of it.shop around there are a few good places to go to yet and don't give up on your 8.it's by far a great car!!it has a few bugs that need to be shot out of it .good luck on trip to the dealer sometimes we can and other times we cannot fix it but we give it our best and thats all you can do .we have bought cars back from our customer's at time just to keep there bussiness. :ylsuper:

Sounds like you got a really bad one....the 04s seem to have more issues than the later years. Hope the problems get resolved.

KNOCK ON WOOD, I've been pretty lucky thus far with my '04. It's been in a few times, but it's been for the minimal-type stuff (headlight & tail light replacement, dipstick vent, rattles, gas cap replacement). Heck, even my gas mileage is decent!

Wow, you must have the Bizarro Eight to mine—which has been practically perfect!
Sorry to hear it.

really sounds like a lemon. stalling shouldnt really be happening. find a better dealer possibly

I'm sorry to hear of your woes. I know that once you get on the troublesome track with the 8, there definately doesn't ever seem like there would be light at the end of the tunnel.

Of all i've heard, it just sounds like the typical run of back luck with the 8 and dealerships. Also, in my experiences...if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I was never a fan of going through the book and getting every little recall on my car done. The most infamous of that being the emissions recall.

If it's really the end of the road with your tolerance, the best advice I could say would be sell it and start looking for a car to better fit you. Rather it be an 8 or another car, good luck.

One thing i've always kept in mind is that not all 8 owners seem to have all these problems. Buying another may not mean ALL of these problems again. Just food for thought.

This car has been treated like a baby....

There's your problem, never ever baby a rotary. It's designed to be revved and revved hard. :spank:

I drive the crap out of my car... 3 years and 1 more month till I'm out of warranty. My RX8 still feels like new!!! :ylsuper:

There's your problem, never ever baby a rotary. It's designed to be revved and revved hard. :spank:
I drive the crap out of my car... 3 years and 1 more month till I'm out of warranty. My RX8 still feels like new!!! :ylsuper:The OP has already stated that when he said "the car has been treated like a baby" he simply meant he's taken good care of it and done everything Mazda says you're supposed to.

"Babying your car" does NOT necessarily mean driving only at low revs like an old lady. I regularly redline mine AND I also "baby it"—meaning I change the oil every 3K, use only premium fuel, wash it every week, keep it under a car cover, etc.

Yay, welcome to "I have too much problem with my 8" club! I think I had all of your symptoms :(

I am going back to dealership tomorrow for check engine light on issue for my 8 (same year, also auto). I wonder what future holds for my exciting trip back to a dealership!

I've had many issues too. Sometimes you just end up getting a Friday car. The best thing I did was chage which dealership I go to. It is the farthest away from my hous ein town but they do the best warrany work.

As the owner of an '04 RX-8 GT A/T I have absoultely had it with this car. Aside from the multiple little things.... interior rattling, creaks, sunroof issues, etc. I've had multiple run-ins with the mechanical troubles of this car, everything from the no-start scenario due to flooding, weak starter, what have you.... to heavy engine vibration, stalling, lack of acceleration power, surging, etc. etc. etc.

This car has been treated like a baby.... I've used only premium fuel since day one, have changed the oil to spec. and have had every service recall to date.

Sounds like proof that we should use synthetic oil and 87 octane!


Not sure what to do anymore..... this is becoming epidemic. I keep bringing it in, and the problems continue to go unresolved. Anyone familiar with Lemon Laws?

Kidding aside, you should visit different dealers if the one you're using isn't cooperating. Your level of service can vary a great deal between them.

What is the mileage on your rx8?

I don't think the "you didn't do your homework" answer isn't very fair in this case. I mean no ammount of homework could've fortold that his AT would be stalling in traffic! Furthermore, he did all the right maintenances/replacements that should've fixed his issues. I mean, we can use the "homework" slap on those who are complaining about MPG, oil consuption, etc. but this poor guy's car sounds like a nightmare! And his dealership sounds incompetent!

kidryno,
I think it's time to trade-in...a car's sole purpose in life is to run at command and take you places, if it takes you there with a smile on your face--then that's a bonus. If it can't transport you consistently and no one seems capable of fixing your problem--fire it. It's not doing its job.

2 cents.

pm your vin to me

Thanks to all who have offered true advice (no thanks to those RX-8 loyalists who chant the mantra of "this car can do no wrong" and always assume operator error), you're a waste of my time - the objective of this post was to see if other 04 owners have found themselves in similar scenarios and if so, what has been done (if anything) to correct.

I have been a sports car owner/auto enthusiast for years and am not a newbie complaining about traits inherant to sports cars or rotary engines. These are mechanical issues, real issues that any RX-8 owner could face. Mazda produced a faulty car, that is all I am saying (this is why car companies issue warranties) - unfortunately, in this case the resolve has yet to be found. As we all know, I am not alone in this as Mazda US is aware of the issues that plague the '04's through scores of customer complaints.

I dropped off my car this morning and had a long talk with the Manager of the Service Facility. He is calling Mazda corporate today on my behalf to discuss the options.... I'll wait and see.

I have an '05, and (knock on wood) but I haven't had a single issue with it. It's only been back to the delaer for regular maintenance and the engine recall.

But I went through an ordeal similar to yours with a '97 Honda Accord. Constant surging, stalling, misfires during acceleration, 15 mpg mileage, 20 mph swings in speed with the cruise control on, etc etc. It developed these problems shortly after I purchased it (new). It went back to the dealer on 5 separate occasions. The first two times they said they had made some adjustments and it was fixed. Not. The second two times the report came back that they could not duplicate the problem and that nothing was wrong (just me and my imagination, I guess). The final time I was told that this behavior was "normal" for an Accord with a manual transmission. I had contacted Honda's division headquarters after the 3rd trip (when "no problem existed"), and they offered little help. After the 5th trip, I made copies of all the service reports, and sent them along with a letter via certified mail, return receipt to Honda North America. The letter was polite and professional, but also quite clear that if they chose to do nothing about the problem(s), I would have no choice but to begin legal proceedings. About a week after I sent the letter, I got a call from Honda corporate, and to make a long(er) story shorter, they provided me a loaner while they kept the car for about a week. At the end it was fixed, and was apparently something with the computer or the wiring to the computer that was causing all the problems.

I'm only relating this because you might give the certified letter angle a try first. Lemon law proceedings can work, but they can also be a major time sink, especially when you might have a dealer saying that they can't ever duplicate the problem(s) you're having. Hope things work out for you, man.

Best,
Bill

A friend in high school had the exact same problems you mentioned above with either a '98 or '99 CRV. He also had all the electrical go out at various times or come on for no apparent reason also. One night he was driving home in the rain after dark. First the wipers stopped functioning, then all the dashlights went out, and then the headlights and tail lights. Then the radio came on when it had been off. It kept having variously odd electrical "issues" like this as well as the problems you had. Eventually he got it taken care of under Lemon Law. After it was bought back from him the dealership called to let him know that they did eventually find the problem. It seems to be very similar if not the same as you have. It was mis-wired (not sure in what way exactly) and there was a malfunctioning module that caused a problem with all the electrical stuff.

I had my car since 2004 and it has never seen the dealer since ..knock on wood i have never had a single problem...

Listen to zoom44 - he is your friend here.

Zoom has powers FAR beyond that of your Service Manager....The Force is strong in him.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/Jedi54/darthfight.gif

my service mgr told me my marbles are the consequences of reving too high and that the renesis should not be rev'ed that high... :scratchhe

maybe next time he'll recommend i change my valve springs...

zoom44 - PM sent.....

Ready for this...... just got the call from the dealership. And guess what? It needs a new engine. Funny how before I mentioned legal action to remedy all these troubles, the response was "we were unable to verify the problem".

So, now I've gotta ask, who amongst this forum has (A) received a new engine, (B) has had their issues resolved because of the engine replacement.

Additionally, the service manager was unable to tell me if Mazda is replacing the engines with 07 technology or 04's or even refurbs.

kid, not to sounds like a prick but you should do a search for people who got a new engine. I know I've seen a thread or two about it, I just don't happen to know where they are at the time.

Hopefully the new engine will help fix some of these issues.

As the owner of an '04 RX-8 GT A/T I have absoultely had it with this car. Aside from the multiple little things.... interior rattling, creaks, sunroof issues, etc. I've had multiple run-ins with the mechanical troubles of this car, everything from the no-start scenario due to flooding, weak starter, what have you.... to heavy engine vibration, stalling, lack of acceleration power, surging, etc. etc. etc.

This car has been treated like a baby.... I've used only premium fuel since day one, have changed the oil to spec. and have had every service recall to date. I've called Mazda Corporate a few times to address these issues, and while I have been covered every time to have the car looked at or repaired, the issues still remain.

According to my dealership, they have been unable to replicate these problems and I was not a candidate for the engine replacement program as they said it passed all the tests. I've had the plugs changed, the starter replaced, the coils replaced, the engine mounts replaced.... but just this morning the car stalled on a heavy traffic road while at a red light after driving the car for 20 minutes and I then spent the next 10 minutes going throught the no start scenario while scores of drivers behind me were all too eager to give me the one-finger salute, not to mention making me late to work. Immediately, I called the dealership and spoke to the service manager (who knows me on a first name basis) and he said to bring it in again.

Not sure what to do anymore..... this is becoming epidemic. I keep bringing it in, and the problems continue to go unresolved. Anyone familiar with Lemon Laws?

Wow, I thought I was the only '04 A/T owner having these problems. I too have complained repeatedly to the dealer and have gotten the same "cannot duplicate" response from them. I've had the starter & battery replaced to fix the flooding issue and the engine mounts replaced several times to try to fix the non-stop vibration. I took my RX in for the engine replacement TSB and the dealer only completely half of it and signed off stating my car is perfectly ok. I swore at that moment to never return to the dealership. Only oil changes from here on out for the next 6 months until my lease is up.

I've lost power several times, the transmission is ALWAYS in the wrong gear and often freaks out, shifting from 4th to 2nd to 4th to 3rd to 2nd, when I'm flooring it. I'm just thankful my commute went from 1h 30m to 5 mins recently and I'm not in my RX as much as I was. I'm SO thankful I leased so I can turn this torque-less wonder in and buy something else.

My BMW is already on order.

NYCGPS, Are you even worthy of a response?

No, he's not. That list is irrelevant unless you are into conspiracy theory. The guy who started the thread has clearly had a series of incidents, most of which are unrelated to the other. He has mechanical issues, creaks etc.

Do you seriously expect "babying the car too much" is a reasonable explantation??? jesus, what a crock. You know, if you'd hammered your car you never would have seen these problems......ya right.

^ +1

"Do you seriously expect "babying the car too much" is a reasonable explantation??? jesus, what a crock. You know, if you'd hammered your car you never would have seen these problems......ya right."


thats exactly the problem.




funny how my car with 20k on it has no issues at all, starts when its 7 degrees out, idles smooth, revs like a bat out of hell.

this guy has an auto, babies it, yeah the thing prolly saw like 5k once by accident. theres ur prob. it dropped compression bc the old calibration had the MOP setting at 3 during idle which is too low.(on a scale from 0-60)

the recall reflash set the idle mop posiiton to 6 when idling and that helped to solve the issue but for this guy, the engine was already done. hence the stalling when idling, low idle, poor starting, etc etc etc.



9500 each day....its the only way

"Do you seriously expect "babying the car too much" is a reasonable explantation??? jesus, what a crock. You know, if you'd hammered your car you never would have seen these problems......ya right."


thats exactly the problem.




funny how my car with 20k on it has no issues at all, starts when its 7 degrees out, idles smooth, revs like a bat out of hell.

this guy has an auto, babies it, yeah the thing prolly saw like 5k once by accident. theres ur prob. it dropped compression bc the old calibration had the MOP setting at 3 during idle which is too low.(on a scale from 0-60)

the recall reflash set the idle mop posiiton to 6 when idling and that helped to solve the issue but for this guy, the engine was already done. hence the stalling when idling, low idle, poor starting, etc etc etc.



9500 each day....its the only way

Where do u get off assuming he rarely got over 5K??? He has never said anything to that effect. He has however used the word "flooring" it, so you can only assume the opposite if anything.
And as for babying it, he says himself

"...By babying the car, as I explained in my first post, meant that it has been treated per Mazda's specs for this car by always using Premium fuel and always staying on top of oil consumption and oil changes/regular maintenence...."

I'm starting to wonder if some of you actually read the first post or if you just comment based upon your "assumptions". I'll assume the latter. The RX-8 is a sports car, and as such, it will be driven like one. Mazda didn't issue an engine RECALL because one or two customers had issues. You fix those on an "as needed" basis. This has affected a large amount of 04 owners. Just look at the posts on this forum alone.

What I'm amazed at is the "lets treat the symptoms, not the problem" scenario I've been finding myself in. When the recall came out, I was having continuing issues with the car, and I thought - FINALLY - Mazda is taking real strides to correct these issues.... but I was called back that same day, and told that my car checked out fine and was not in need of anything.

Fast forward to 2 weeks ago, and I brought my car in for the same symptoms.... again, the response was, the engine is fine, but was in need of new ignition coils. Fair enough,.... but the problems persisted.

Then just yesterday, (this time I met with the Service Dept. VP) the response later in the day was "Your engine's compression is all messed up, you need a new engine".

Am I the only one here who finds this odd. Just 2 weeks prior, the engine checked out fine, despite having the same issues all along the way. BTW, I was trying to research threads regarding those who were new engine candidates, but I was unable to find anything on if the new engines are 07 technology or retooled 04's. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

My guess is the dealer didn't have a clue, was hopelessly in need of an answer to attempt to placate you as a good customer, and after discussion w/MNAO said - "new engine for you fella!"

Now if that doesn't fix it it's probably the left rear bumber lugnut has come loose and no one bothered to check :cwm27:

Good luck with it.

:) Thanks.

I think you're just unfamiliar with Mazda's special brand of customer service. It seems they don't always try to resolve the more complex issues on the first visit. Some dealerships figure that if you come back again, it's less likely to be a fluke or a figment of your imagination and they then step up their efforts. This is not the first time I've read stories here exactly like yours. Search long enough and you'll find them.

At any rate, you have a very real issue and the dealership likely did a half-assed job assessing it the first few times. If you suspected this, I'm not quite sure why you continued to take your car there. Diagnosing a car is like diagnosing a person - if you question the tech's competence, you need a second (or third) opinion.

As for the new engine, I believe Mazda has been using new as well as reman units. You won't find the answer for your specific case here.

well i was a little late to the program today . but from the research i did this morning i was prepared to tell you that you needed to get them to do the vacuum test again. i pmd you a couple of questions but the answers would be moot at this point.

from the previous notes and what had been done it was clear the wires and coil changes werent going to fix it since they had actually tried that previously when they had also "cleaned the throttle body". its unfortunate that they went thru these steps instead of doing the vacuum check etc this time before attempting the coil change- it would have saved them and you some grief.

at least now they are getting to the real issue.

makes you wonder why any service person in Mazda's employ hasnt been told of the issues that led to the latest recall and the failing engines in various places. I would think that by now any service dept in Florida when presented with a 2004 AT with repeated stalling issues would know what to look at first.

Sometimes I dont understand What Mazda is thinking, isnt it more cost effective to do a Vaccum test than replacing all Coils ?

Sometimes I dont understand What Mazda is thinking, isnt it more cost effective to do a Vaccum test than replacing all Coils ?


Yes. But, Mazda is absolutely BY THE BOOK in terms of what they will pay for. If the book says "coils could be the problem" Mazda USA will ONLY pay the mechanic's time and part order if that is the only work done.

If ALL OTHER WORK does not check out, they signal a compression test to be done. In that case, they will pay the mechanic's time and the use of the compression tester.

It's ridiculous, but it is a set list of rules, that, if not followed, will cause the automotive world to spin out of control, and mechanics will end up charging outrageous work hour fees for work THEY think is right.

No, he's not. That list is irrelevant unless you are into conspiracy theory. The guy who started the thread has clearly had a series of incidents, most of which are unrelated to the other. He has mechanical issues, creaks etc.

Do you seriously expect "babying the car too much" is a reasonable explantation??? jesus, what a crock. You know, if you'd hammered your car you never would have seen these problems......ya right.


Conspiracy theory? Are you aware of how a rotary engine works? Do you understand physics in any way shape or form? The faster an object rotates, the more pressure it will place on it's outside form/container..and will try to twist or distort it.

In our case, under heavy load, that means the apex seals will be pressed against the housing with more force than usual, and be able to effectively self-mill(or rather, self-clean) the housings of any burrs and debris.

This is a GOOD THING. This causes compression to stay up, and will generally lead to a longer lasting motor. If you will notice, people on this forum who drive the stink out of their cars tend to have much better things to say about it. They realize they will have worse gas mileage, but at least they don't have high hopes and aren't let down.

People who baby their cars have all kinds of problems with overheating, stalling, needing new engines, etc. However, they also have less problems with transmissions :)

But, it's all a conspiracy..a conspiracy that has been in effect since the day the rotary engine was born..sigh..

it was not mazda's decision to replace the coil(s) this past time - it was the dealer/tech.

Those who keeps saying redlining everyday to keep the engine clean as a definite solution must also believe in replacing water in fish tank everyday instead of fixing a water filter. Source of problem is not a driver who doesn't rev up their car everytime, but a bad engineering that leads to premature wear of engine under NORMAL operation!

Oh yeah, got back from a dealer today for check engine light problem... It was faulty gas cap and was replaced under warranty. It felt weird them not to say something major has to be replaced and ask if I will be needing a rental car, LOL. I still think Mazda has better service than Toyota or Nissan.

Those who keeps saying redlining everyday to keep the engine clean as a definite solution must also believe in replacing water in fish tank everyday instead of fixing a water filter.

How about this, why dont you try to keep the revs as low as possible, maybe no more than 3K for 3-4 years. Then you come back and tell us is your car(engine) still alive.

Source of problem is not a driver who doesn't rev up their car everytime, but a bad engineering that leads to premature wear of engine under NORMAL operation!

Source of the problem is :
Mazda *forgot* to readjust the OMP settings for 5w20 oil. The engine itself has no design problem.

Oh yeah, got back from a dealer today for check engine light problem... It was faulty gas cap and was replaced under warranty. It felt weird them not to say something major has to be replaced and ask if I will be needing a rental car, LOL.

Isnt that a good thing to know ?(that nothing major happens)

For the rental, the more service they give you, the more money the dealership will make.

I still think Mazda has better service than Toyota or Nissan.

Toyota, I dont know
Nissan, 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000% AGREED !
Z00M Z00M Z00M ~~~~~

Let me rephrase what I said in less than logical tone... Those who keep saying redlining everyday to keep the engine clean as a definite solution are STUPID.

By babying the car, as I explained in my first post, meant that it has been treated per Mazda's specs for this car by always using Premium fuel


Unfortunately Mazda's spec's are sometimes not the best way to take care of your rotary "especially the fuel choice". Even though Mazda recommends premium fuel, it's not the best fuel choice for the average persons driving situations. Does anyone here really know what premium fuel is? Some think it's "better" fuel" because they think it burns cleaner. Wrong! What makes premium fuel so special is the fact that it burns slower. That's it! It's purpose is to lower the chances of detonation in higher rpm's and high engine loads.

NA Rotarys by nature don't burn the fuel /air mixture fully like a piston engine because each combustion event per chamber is covered over a much larger area when compared to a piston engine. Think about what's happening inside your engine when it's granny driven with a slower burning fuel? The slower burning fuel and low rpm's takes longer to burn. This will leave additional carbon deposits behind therefore fouling up your spark plugs and also causing some of the internal compression seals to stick due to carbon lock. I don't care what anyone says but this is exactly why rotarys flood in the 1st place. If you have weak spark and weak compression, you will flood period.

I'm not trying to act like a hot shot, but I have over 16yrs for rotary ownership experience and have owned 4 different Rx7's to back my claims. These engines need high engine loads "which create heat" and high rpm's on an occasional basis to keep clean inside. If your not willing to race the engine from time to time, then performing some carbon cleanings twice a yr will eliminate any future flooding problems.

Now does this mean that premium fuel is bad? No! it just means that it's not the best fuel for someone who cruises around in there NA 8 all the time. Most people who drive the Auto Rx8 granny drive the car like a Cadillac. Not good!

Bottom line don't be afraid to use 87 octane in this car for normal driving. It's perfectly safe and will leave less deposits behind since this fuel burns faster. Even still the engine needs to raced every once and a while. Hell I even use 87 in my stock turbo charged 94 Rx7 and it runs great.

Let me rephrase what I said in less than logical tone... Those who keep saying redlining everyday to keep the engine clean as a definite solution are STUPID.



Then it's obvious you have a ton of knowledge and experience with the engines. Please share your personal recommended carbon cleaning strategy?

The service department at the dealer in Pensacola said that they had no manuals that needed the engine replacement, only automatics; so, I'm not surprised your automatic needed a replacement. I agree that it seems fishy that your dealership didn't think yours needed one until legal action was threatened (if I read one of your posts correctly). I think there's a thread somewhere here that discusses the engine(s) (at least, where they originate) that may be put in your car. A search might find it; not sure. Good luck.

Then it's obvious you have a ton of knowledge and experience with the engines. Please share your personal recommended carbon cleaning strategy?


My personal strategy is to pull the leading plugs, pour MMO or some carburetor cleaner in (liberal amounts), and spin the engine by hand a couple times. Let it sit over night, clean the spark plugs, and start her up! :)

That and, water injection (about a gallon) once or twice a year is never a bad idea. I've seen some plates come out beautiful (no need to be cleaned) using these procedures..

What makes premium fuel so special is the fact that it burns slower. That's it! It's purpose is to lower the chances of detonation in higher rpm's and high engine loads.




actually thats not correct. Octane does not in any way describe the rate at which the fuel burns or starts to burn or anything like that. It is only a measure of how resistant the fuel is to unintended ignition , called pre-igniton or knock. specifically whether the as yet unburned end gases will spontaneously ignite before the flame front gets to them.

Preigniton/knock can result in less complete combustion and dirtier combustion(along with otehr issues) leaving behind more carbon deposits then a properly and fully combusted fuel. this carbon build up can be the cause of even furthur problems which have been documented already.

Fuel mixes can vary enough that constanly using the lowest octane available may lead you to having less than 87 octane in your tank and very little protection against knock.

this is one of my favorite articles on octanes
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/editors/technobabble/0201scc_techno/index.html


When fuel is injected into the cylinder, compressed and ignited, one of two things can happen. It either burns quickly and smoothly, shoving the piston down with a strong, even push, or it explodes all at once, releasing its energy in a sudden burst of heat and pressure. This explosion is called knocking or pinging, and it's something engineers like to call "really bad."

Knock is usually ill timed, occurring early in the combustion cycle when the crank and rod are still straight up or even worse, still trying to complete the compression stroke. As a result, all the energy released slams into the top of the piston without actually turning the crank. When this happens under stressful enough conditions-like, 20-psi of boost in a Miata-you start breaking things. Usually the ring lands; however, if your pistons are strong enough, you might get lucky and blow a head gasket.

Octane, for those of you still on the bike, is the rating of a fuel's ability to not do this. The higher the number, the less likely the fuel is to detonate. What this means to us, of course, is the higher the number, the more boost we can throw at that Miata. High-octane gas isn't just for tuners though. Plenty of stock cars depend on the stuff, including a Celica GT-S with its 11.5:1 compression, or a turbocharged WRX or Volkswagen 1.8T.

These cars rely on high-octane gas to keep from detonating. Feed them 91 octane and they won't start breaking things, because their knock sensors will see it coming and retard the timing, turn down the boost or otherwise reduce your chances of having any fun.

Whose fault is it this time, CARB? The EPA? The CHP? None of the above. This time we're being victimized partly by the oil companies, and partly-this is the one that hurts-by ourselves.

You see, when crude oil is refined into gasoline, the refinery doesn't have all that much control over what comes out. Crude oil is full of all kinds of stuff, and a refinery simply separates it, sorting all the iso-this and hepta-that in order of density. The really heavy stuff, like tar, is near the bottom, while the really light stuff, like butane, is near the top.

Somewhere in the upper ranges of the stack are the components of gasoline. There are between 10 and 15 different blend stocks, each with a different octane rating, which are mixed together to make gasoline.

The crude oil being used and little else determine the amount of each blend stock available for mixing. Generally, if you just dump all the blend stocks into a bucket, you end up with something around 88 or 89 octane. If you're selective and only mix the good stuff, you can make 92, 93 or even 95 octane. But once you take out the good stuff, you're left with crap-something like 85 octane. Then you have to leave enough good stuff in the bucket to bring this pee-water up to at least 87 octane. This limits the amount of 95-octane gas you can make. If you make 93-octane premium instead, you use up less of the high-octane stocks, allowing you to make a higher proportion of premium fuel.

In the Midwest, where an extensive customer base of good old boys in pickup trucks consume vast quantities of 87 octane, demand for premium fuel is low enough to make genuine high-octane premium.

In California, however, Lexus-driving executives suck down premium fuel like it's Evian, so 92 was the rule.

CARB isn't entirely innocent. Many of its standards for evaporative emissions and misdirected attempts at oxygenation have raised the manufacturing cost of high-octane gas, but it doesn't seem to be behind the sudden change to 91. Instead, according my super-secret oil industry mole, it all comes back to money. Unocal, you see, has a patent on the 173 easiest ways to make California-friendly 92-octane gas. As a result, every other oil company has to pay Unocal 5.75 cents for every gallon they make using one of these techniques. They haven't actually been paying it, but that's an issue for the lawyers to sort out.

Suddenly it's pretty obvious why our gas sucks, but why doesn't Unocal still sell us 92? Because it can't. In 1997, Unocal sold off all its 76 gas stations, and with them, its ability to decide what kind of gas to make. All Unocal can do now is look for oil, suck it out of the ground, and wish it had some way to make everybody else keep using its patents. You see, not only did Unocal screw us, they screwed themselves.

Let me rephrase what I said in less than logical tone... Those who keep saying redlining everyday to keep the engine clean as a definite solution are STUPID.

Then dont do it, drive it like what you need to do to a piston engine.

Come back 3-4 years later. See what happens.

My personal strategy is to pull the leading plugs, pour MMO or some carburetor cleaner in (liberal amounts), and spin the engine by hand a couple times. Let it sit over night, clean the spark plugs, and start her up! :)

That and, water injection (about a gallon) once or twice a year is never a bad idea. I've seen some plates come out beautiful (no need to be cleaned) using these procedures..



Spoken like a true rotary maintenance specialist. : :Peace:

With my Fd, I replace the fuel filter and plugs once a year or every 12k. I also do the water thing "2 quarts per rotor twice a year". The water thing is also good for cleaning out the exhaust/cat converter as my original o2 sensor in my 91 vert is still working "152k miles". Those little things plus a good redlining in 1st and second gear underload once a week does wonders for these engine.


Rx8 owners need to be taking notes. :)

^^^^^ Sadly, I am too lazy to replace my fuel filters..aside from drastic tear-downs (like when I first acquire an FC -- no matter how well it runs, full tear down to short block, clean and inspect everything, replace all hoses, clean injectors, etc) or when I'm in that area.. :yelrotflm

There is so much absolute crap posted on this board that you really have to watch what you take to heart. Some of the stuff spewed out on the net by "experts" really amazes me.

well you're not supposed to baby the car, maybe thats your problem..... you're supposed to be a aggressive with it. but sorry about your problems!

There is so much absolute crap posted on this board that you really have to watch what you take to heart. Some of the stuff spewed out on the net by "experts" really amazes me.



To what info "Crap" are you refering too?

To what info "Crap" are you refering too?


What makes premium fuel so special is the fact that it burns slower. That's it! It's purpose is to lower the chances of detonation in higher rpm's and high engine loads.

Well, I think that is a good place to start, no?

Aren't there mod's in this forum? This is the most jacked thread I think I've ever seen. This is like some Honduh forum stuff.

So did kidryno ever get the new engine. I'm curious about what year engine he was given.

Well, I think that is a good place to start, no?

Point made.

Well, I think that is a good place to start, no?


Yes depending on your driving habits. If you run the engine as it was intended & and use the full rpm range all the time, then 91 octaine is the best fuel choice. If you granny drive around all the time, it's better to run the lower octaine. Rotary's knock mainly happens in the upper rpm ranges under load (6k and up). If your not driving your car to it's potential, then it's pointlss to run the 91. That's all I'm saying. Think about this, why run a race fuel if your just cruising on the highway? You would actually have less power because race fuel takes more spark to burn. That's a fact.

Lets not forget where talking about a NA rotary here. It's not boosted or anything. My turbo charged Fd will safely run 10psi on 87 octaine has been driven around on 87 octane for thepast year.

Point made.



Not! Mazda isn't dumb enough to program the ecu for only one specific fuel grade. 87 is perfectly safe in the Rx8 as it was for my turbo charged 94 Rx7. Do you understand anything about tuning & A/F ratios?

actually thats not correct. Octane does not in any way describe the rate at which the fuel burns or starts to burn or anything like that.



I disagree see my example below.

When I was running 91 (which is the Mazda recommended fuel for my Fd) when it's really hot out and have the A/C going, my fd sometime would struggle to idle. When the compressor would kicked on is when it happened. Sometimes the engine would even die the hotter it got and I would have difficulty starting it. When I switched over to 87, I never had this problem. The engine didn't bog down as much and it was way more responsive. I also had more power throughout the whole rpm range. This is why I believe 87 is more explosive. If this isn't the case, please explain to me why my car is more responsive? I'm always open to being educated.

Your personal examples do not override chemistry and physics... :wiggle:

I disagree see my example below.

When I was running 91 (which is the Mazda recommended fuel for my Fd) when it's really hot out and have the A/C going, my fd sometime would struggle to idle. When the compressor would kicked on is when it happened. Sometimes the engine would even die the hotter it got and I would have difficulty starting it. When I switched over to 87, I never had this problem. The engine didn't bog down as much and it was way more responsive. I also had more power throughout the whole rpm range. This is why I believe 87 is more explosive. If this isn't the case, please explain to me why my car is more responsive? I'm always open to being educated.

It depends ...

It lives....

Aren't there mod's in this forum? This is the most jacked thread I think I've ever seen. This is like some Honduh forum stuff.

So did kidryno ever get the new engine. I'm curious about what year engine he was given.

never been to axial flow?

I disagree see my example below.

When I was running 91 (which is the Mazda recommended fuel for my Fd) when it's really hot out and have the A/C going, my fd sometime would struggle to idle. When the compressor would kicked on is when it happened. Sometimes the engine would even die the hotter it got and I would have difficulty starting it. When I switched over to 87, I never had this problem. The engine didn't bog down as much and it was way more responsive. I also had more power throughout the whole rpm range. This is why I believe 87 is more explosive. If this isn't the case, please explain to me why my car is more responsive? I'm always open to being educated.


http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part3/


if your car tried to die when the load changed on a particular grade of gas then you you had a tuning issue of some kind. i would guess- never having seen your car. id like to find out tho. i ll ask around to others who may have seen this issue before.

Your personal examples do not override chemistry and physics... :wiggle:


? More info please! I'm not the only one who has used 87 octane in my fd. So it's not just "my personal examples" of why I know it's safe to run in an Rx8. I also speak of the generalized experience of others.

It depends ...


Elaborate please!

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part3/


if your car tried to die when the load changed on a particular grade of gas then you you had a tuning issue of some kind. i would guess- never having seen your car. id like to find out tho. i ll ask around to others who may have seen this issue before.



My Fd was otherwise stock except for down pipe and modified stock air box. The tuning is all factory. There were no issues with my car other than the fact that when it started to near the 100k range is when I started to see these problems. I know the older rotaries will last well into the 200k range, but the 3 peice apex seals in the 86 up models are really near their end when you get in the 100k range. Anyways the fact is 87 octane gave my car (and other Fd owners who have used it) more power in stock form. Regardless of any articles, I'm all about real world testing and experiments.

On similar tunes, as long as you can avoid detonation, lower octane will almost ALWAYS result in higher horsepower numbers. This does not say that it is SAFE to run, however..high boost and high compression applications should always run higher octane fuel, not so much to make more power, but to avoid detonation.

I would say it is fine to run 87 in the humid summer, but downright stupid to run it in a boosted or high compression application in the dense-air winter.


Again, your experience, or even the experience of a few people you know does not overcome physics and chemistry. Individual results will occur.


Discussions like this are why it was once said: The RX7club is the worst thing to ever happen to the RX7. Don't make it happen for the RX8's..

My Fd was otherwise stock except for down pipe and modified stock air box. The tuning is all factory. There were no issues with my car other than the fact that when it started to near the 100k range is when I started to see these problems. I know the older rotaries will last well into the 200k range, but the 3 peice apex seals in the 86 up models are really near their end when you get in the 100k range. Anyways the fact is 87 octane gave my car (and other Fd owners who have used it) more power in stock form. Regardless of any articles, I'm all about real world testing and experiments.


The 3-piece apex seals are NOT near the end of their life around 100k..the small end piece will generally roll out of it's groove upwards of 175k miles..IF it ever rolls out at all..

Around 100k, if your FD was like.."most"..your turbos were on the way out. Your engine was probably taking a dip in compression, due to said turbos baking away at the coolant seals. Because of this loss in compression, you would have less ignition "punch", and you could run slightly lower octane to help combat this.

I'm all about reality.

sorry to hear of your problems :( www.lemonlaw.com

one of my friends bought a 2007 4runner and had many problems with it and the dealer gave her another suv!! that was also only a few weeks after she bought it though. worth a shot...

How about this, why dont you try to keep the revs as low as possible, maybe no more than 3K for 3-4 years. Then you come back and tell us is your car(engine) still alive.



Source of the problem is :
Mazda *forgot* to readjust the OMP settings for 5w20 oil. The engine itself has no design problem.



Isnt that a good thing to know ?(that nothing major happens)

For the rental, the more service they give you, the more money the dealership will make.



Toyota, I dont know
Nissan, 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000% AGREED !
Z00M Z00M Z00M ~~~~~


i have a 1994 4runner over 200k miles and toyota did alot of recall and warranty work...i didnt even have to pull the bitch card they were very helpful. i love my rx8 but ill swear by toyota for reliabilty (sp?) as well as service. i havent had to deal to much with mazda yet and hopefully wont have to but not alot to go by to compare the two. just gotta put my .02 in for toyota :)

This is why I believe 87 is more explosive. If this isn't the case, please explain to me why my car is more responsive? I'm always open to being educated.
The octane rating is the gas's resistance to detonation. Higher the octane number, the more the air/fuel mixture can be compressed without exploding pre-maturely.

Now with most rotary engines, a lower octane (which is easier pre-ignited by things like a hot spark plug tip) will often produce more power, however you must avoid at all costs detonation (or pre-ignition).

While detonation in a piston motor is not generally destructive in short doses, in a rotary engine it can kill a motor in only a single ill timed event.

Running a boosted or high compression (anything about 9.9:1) rotary motor on low octane such as 86 or 87 RON can easily cause detonation and apex seal failure.

but the 3 piece apex seals in the 86 up models are really near their end when you get in the 100k range. , that would be incorrect. It is not the 3 piece seal that has the problem. Many 86-88 models (turbo or NA) have no issues with the seals. Where the the problem comes from, is with the lighter rotors on the 89+ models. The lighter rotors use a less dense metal, that will deform because of seal movement (often caused by minor detonation). The seal itself can be still in spec just fine... not even half worn out at 100K miles, but if the slot in the rotor has expanded, then the seal can roll out. Using too low of an octane will result in that problem.

Ahh, it always feels good to be backed up by someone with credibility!

On similar tunes, as long as you can avoid detonation, lower octane will almost ALWAYS result in higher horsepower numbers. This does not say that it is SAFE to run, however..high boost and high compression applications should always run higher octane fuel, not so much to make more power, but to avoid detonation.

100% agree

I would say it is fine to run 87 in the humid summer, but downright stupid to run it in a boosted or high compression application in the dense-air winter.

In all honesty how could you say it's stupid without your own testing? I've fully boosted my fd (11 primary spiking to 12 psi) in 40degree weather without issues with 87 in the tank. I know for a fact it's safe because, I understand how super rich Mazda's factory tuning is under full load. Because I undertsand this, I know my margin of error. Your basing your opinions on what you think is best without testing. Is it good old fashioned paranoya? I know for a fact there is a ton of that here on this forum form people who really don't know anything about rotarys and there real limitations. Don't take that the wrong way, I'm just talking about people here in general who are really cluless. My 91 vert has 9.7 compression only .03 less than the Rx8 that's not that much differance. If we were talking 12 to 1 compression ratio, then I would agree. 10 isn't that high. It's all in the tuning period.


Discussions like this are why it was once said: The RX7club is the worst thing to ever happen to the RX7. Don't make it happen for the RX8's..


Go figure. I could easily say the same about this forum. Regardless of what people say, there is a ton more experience on that forum than here. I'm just trying to pass on my personal long term experience/knowledge on to the Rx8 community in hopes that these flooding issuse can be resolved and avoided. The last thing I wanna do is spout off BS info so even more engines can be replaced. Hell am I the only person here that can't stand the fact that Mazda chooses to have the mechanics replace the engines with low vacuum with remans (which are nothing more than someone elses engine that's been opened, cleaned/decarbonized and put back together) just so the next person can granny drive that engine to the point that it also will need to be replaced once again? This pisses me off simply because it gives the rotary a bad reputation of non-reliabilty when the problem is so easily fixed.

Sorry for venting!

The octane rating is the gas's resistance to detonation. Higher the octane number, the more the air/fuel mixture can be compressed without exploding pre-maturely.


I understand this fully!

Now with most rotary engines, a lower octane (which is easier pre-ignited by things like a hot spark plug tip) will often produce more power, however you must avoid at all costs detonation (or pre-ignition).

Understand this fully also!

While detonation in a piston motor is not generally destructive in short doses, in a rotary engine it can kill a motor in only a single ill timed event.

Your right but answer me this? Which engine has the potential for much higher knock in a lean condition? 10psi boost rotary or NA renesis.

Running a boosted or high compression (anything about 9.9:1) rotary motor on low octane such as 86 or 87 RON can easily cause detonation and apex seal failure.

I have never heard of any situation of a "STOCK" NA rotary loosing an apex seal due to detonation due to fuel selection of a lower octane. However, if it's the old 3piece apex seals with really high mileage, then I wouldn't doubt it.

The seal itself can be still in spec just fine... not even half worn out at 100K miles, but if the slot in the rotor has expanded, then the seal can roll out. Using too low of an octane will result in that problem.


I'm aware of the change in the casting between those models however, I guess the engine in my 91 vert is a freak of nature. I pulled that engine apart at 146k and my rotor to apex seal grooves where perfectly in spec. I've put nothing but 87 in that car. So why is mine not expanding? I've also bought a total of 6 S5 NA 9.7 compression rotors (3 of which im putting in my 20b) and not one of them has had this expansion you are talking about. The only expansion I've ever seen with any rotor is with the 1st gens (12A and possibly 13b) with the heavier 3mm apex seals.


Lastly I should have elaborated better when I made the statement that the 3 piece apex seals are near their end near the 100k range. Truthfully they are. I didn't mean in terms of wearing out. Regardless of what the specs say, the top peace of the apex seal gets very thin and gets very....very brittle making them extremely weak in this mileage range. They can snap pretty easily. This is what I was meaning. I consider any rotary with 3 piece apex seals with over 100k a ticking time bomb boosted or NA.

Ahh, it always feels good to be backed up by someone with credibility!



Credibility is earned. It's all about who you know and who you are comfortable getting info from. Just understand that it doesn't always make them right. :)

The 3-piece apex seals are NOT near the end of their life around 100k..the small end piece will generally roll out of it's groove upwards of 175k miles..IF it ever rolls out at all..

Around 100k, if your FD was like.."most"..your turbos were on the way out. Your engine was probably taking a dip in compression, due to said turbos baking away at the coolant seals. Because of this loss in compression, you would have less ignition "punch", and you could run slightly lower octane to help combat this.

I'm all about reality.

exactly right. his compression had dropped over time so he was able to run lower octane.

Around 100k, if your FD was like.."most"..your turbos were on the way out. Your engine was probably taking a dip in compression, due to said turbos baking away at the coolant seal. [/B]


The reality here is your assumptions are completely wrong about my Fd. Do you actually realize the very small percentage of Fd's that actually have original engines that have over 100k? Were talking in the single digit percentage. It's probably less than 2%. My turbo's are perfectly fine and don't leak any oil. My coolant seals are in perfect working order. Absolutely zero leaks. I understand how to properly maintaine my car. Period!


Because of this loss in compression, you would have less ignition "punch", and you could run slightly lower octane to help combat this. I'm all about reality

I do believe my compression was lowering a bit. I already said earlier that 87 helped me out due to my higher mileage. Tell me something I don't already know!

Also the reality is 87 is safe in the Rx8 whether you want to believe that or not. The higher than normal A/F ratios of the engine tuning plus the knock sensors will more than compensate for the lower octane. No one has yet to prove me wrong.

exactly right. his compression had dropped over time so he was able to run lower octane.



You really have no clue don't you. There are Fd guys who have been running 87 in the cars early years without issues. Mazda is't dumb enough to program the ecu for strickly only one specific fuel grade. They had to program a margin of error just incase someone did infact put in the lower octane. Otherwise Mazda would have been replacing Fd engines on a regular bases from secondary owners who didn't know better. Not everyone reads their owners manual. This is exactly why the stock A/F ratios are so rich under boost. If lower octane is used, the extra fuel being dumped in will compensates for the lack of octane to help control knock.

yes yes yes of course mazda runs em rich- i have a clue and have had for a long time;) . the clue i needed in the beginning was that you were running stock maps. i read that a post or two ago. at first i assumed you had had some tuning done to the car- hence my "then you you had a tuning issue of some kind" post

Well now it all makes since. All this time I had been talking about stock Fd's and Rx8's running 87. I didn't realize you had misunderstood one of my post. My fd has a downpipe and modified stock air box w/ K&N filter. I had to install a boost controller to get the boost back to stock levels due to boost creep. With the FD, the so called 3 mod rule is nule and void provided you keep the boost at stock levels with the stock ecu however, I completely understand that it's stupid to run 87 when modified on stock programming.

Bold comments are me.

The reality here is your assumptions are completely wrong about my Fd. Do you actually realize the very small percentage of Fd's that actually have original engines that have over 100k? Were talking in the single digit percentage. It's probably less than 2%. My turbo's are perfectly fine and don't leak any oil. My coolant seals are in perfect working order. Absolutely zero leaks. I understand how to properly maintaine my car. Period!


I don't care how well you know how to maintain a car. The fact of the matter is that Mazda placed the factory twins TOO CLOSE to the engine block, with not enough heat shielding. You can change your oil, coolant, and spark plugs all you want - you aren't going to stop heat from pouring off of those turbos, and baking the coolant seals in your block.

Pressurize your 100k+ mile FD's coolant system. Leave it pressurized at 13psi for 2-3 weeks. Sound like a plan? If it's as healthy as you say, you shouldn't be down even a little bit of coolant. My guess is, you will have at least a few drops in your engine..


I do believe my compression was lowering a bit. I already said earlier that 87 helped me out due to my higher mileage. Tell me something I don't already know!

You are hear giving advice to others that 87 octane is FINE to run, just because on your personal car (oh, and a few of your friends) which you admit you think the compression is down on..does that sound stupid to you?

Also the reality is 87 is safe in the Rx8 whether you want to believe that or not. The higher than normal A/F ratios of the engine tuning plus the knock sensors will more than compensate for the lower octane. No one has yet to prove me wrong.

Prove you wrong?! Are you JOKING? Knock sensors will do JUST THAT - sense knock, sense detonation, sense misfire, whatever you want it to do!! A "misfire" on a rotary engines is DEADLY! It only takes ONE small off-set fire to SHATTER an apex seal! What about this do you not comprehend?? Prove you wrong?! - come take a look at my RX7 buddy!!

Higher A/F ratio will not compensate for the lower octane. 2 oz 87 != 1 oz 91. It is not better. More of a lower octane fuel will not compensate for running a higher octane. That is retarded to try and argue!

Yes indeed, those are certainly bold comments.

I'm aware of the change in the casting between those models however, I guess the engine in my 91 vert is a freak of nature. I pulled that engine apart at 146k and my rotor to apex seal grooves where perfectly in spec. I've put nothing but 87 in that car. So why is mine not expanding? why would it be expanding if you ran the correct grade of gas. All S4 and S5 RX-7 models were designed to run on 87 octane.

I've also bought a total of 6 S5 NA 9.7 compression rotors (3 of which im putting in my 20b) and not one of them has had this expansion you are talking about. The only expansion I've ever seen with any rotor is with the 1st gens (12A and possibly 13b) with the heavier 3mm apex seals.

Rob at pineapple and Dave Atkins both can back me on this. We talked about it last year at 7 stock and all agree about the issue. I can show you a half dozen rotors sitting in my garage, all with the widened seal groove, all from engines with known knocking or boosted issues and from S4 and up motors.

Again, the 9.7 compression rotors are fine to use 87 octane in a non boosted application. Its the 10.0:1 and above that I would not. Compression is just too great.

Of course pre-mix can also cause issues, as typically levels of pre-mix above 150:1 can lower the octane a point or two (depending on the quality and RON of the gas in the first place)>

And remember that S4-S6 knock sensors (and I am unsure about FE) all dropped knock sensor input in the stock ECU when there was WOT.

i have a 1994 4runner over 200k miles and toyota did alot of recall and warranty work...i didnt even have to pull the bitch card they were very helpful. i love my rx8 but ill swear by toyota for reliabilty (sp?) as well as service. i havent had to deal to much with mazda yet and hopefully wont have to but not alot to go by to compare the two. just gotta put my .02 in for toyota :)

There're reasons that Toyota stay on the *top* of the choice for most ppl.

I don't care how well you know how to maintain a car. The fact of the matter is that Mazda placed the factory twins TOO CLOSE to the engine block, with not enough heat shielding. You can change your oil, coolant, and spark plugs all you want - you aren't going to stop heat from pouring off of those turbos, and baking the coolant seals in your block.


Let me guess, your thinking I may be loosing compression cause of this right? Wrong! Any heat pouring off the turbos will only bake the coolant seals on the NON compression side of the engine. I've personally assembled engines with scorched housings on the exhaust side of the engine and had great compression. Regardless, my coolant seals are fine. I properly cool my car down with light driving b4 shutdown. This basically makes my car NA and cools everything. I also run filtered/distilled water in my cooling system which is far less corrosive than tap water. Trust me I know I little something. ;)


Pressurize your 100k+ mile FD's coolant system. Leave it pressurized at 13psi for 2-3 weeks. Sound like a plan? If it's as healthy as you say, you shouldn't be down even a little bit of coolant. My guess is, you will have at least a few drops in your engine..


With my mileage your probably right but considering the fact that I do the water steam clean method, do you really think I would care about a few drops?

You are hear giving advice to others that 87 octane is FINE to run, just because on your personal car (oh, and a few of your friends) which you admit you think the compression is down on..does that sound stupid to you?

Nope! Not when someones been doing it much much longer than me. Also check out post number 33. This proves my point about 87 being more explosive and why my car starts better with 87 than 91.

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=606412&page=1&pp=15&highlight=octane


Prove you wrong?! Are you JOKING? Knock sensors will do JUST THAT - sense knock, sense detonation, sense misfire, whatever you want it to do!! A "misfire" on a rotary engines is DEADLY! It only takes ONE small off-set fire to SHATTER an apex seal! What about this do you not comprehend?? Prove you wrong?! - come take a look at my RX7 buddy!!


I understand the effects of detonation perfectly in a rotary. I also understand how Mazda tuned the factory ecu and that my total compression ratio in my Fd is much higher than what people are getting in the Rx8 due to forced induction. The fact is with both engines having the same displacement, and my car making way more hp & torque, the internal pressures and stress levels in my Fd engine making 11psi boost (rougly 265hp with my mods) is alot higher than the NA Renesis period. There is no comparison but yet I can safely run 87 in my more over stressed engine. So why can't YOU comprehend that? 87 is safe in a stock Renesis. That's all I've been saying. Prove to me that 87 will cause detonation high enough that rotary's will blow apex seals in a COMPLETELY STOCK CAR with stock tuning. I have yet in all my years to hear of that happening.



Higher A/F ratio will not compensate for the lower octane. 2 oz 87 != 1 oz 91. It is not better. More of a lower octane fuel will not compensate for running a higher octane. That is retarded to try and argue!

Who's arguing? Yes it will compensate in some degree. It's harder for fuel to pre-ignite if you have to much dumped in. Ecu's can be tuned richer to compensate for a lack of octane. I told you before...this is why the fd has such a rich 10.1 A/F ratio under full load. Mazda knew not everyone would use their recommended fuel grade so they had to compensate for that lower grade by running richer. Even tuning experts know this. The Fd can even run up to 11.5 and be safe under boost at 10psi. There is plenty of margin there. Same goes for the NA Rx8. If you still don't believe me about the compensation, I'll get proof from a rotary tuning expert who has all the respect and trust if you want.

why would it be expanding if you ran the correct grade of gas. All S4 and S5 RX-7 models were designed to run on 87 octane.

You claimed this expansion was due to not running the correct octane in the second gens. I responded with my own experience with my NA S5.


Rob at pineapple and Dave Atkins both can back me on this. We talked about it last year at 7 stock and all agree about the issue. I can show you a half dozen rotors sitting in my garage, all with the widened seal groove, all from engines with known knocking or boosted issues and from S4 and up motors.

My experience doesn't include boosted 2nd gens. You never clarified about which models you were talking about b4 when making the expansion claims on the rotors. All that time I was clearly talking about NA S5 rotors.

Again, the 9.7 compression rotors are fine to use 87 octane in a non boosted application. Its the 10.0:1 and above that I would not. Compression is just too great.


.3 differance do you see your paranoya? See my above post about the internal pressures of my fd engine being far greater than the renesis. 87 is fine in stock NA Rx8.

You claimed this expansion was due to not running the correct octane in the second gens. I responded with my own experience with my NA S5.




My experience doesn't include boosted 2nd gens. You never clarified about which models you were talking about b4 when making the expansion claims on the rotors. All that time I was clearly talking about NA S5 rotors.




.3 differance do you see your paranoya? See my above post about the internal pressures of my fd engine being far greater than the renesis. 87 is fine in stock NA Rx8.
Not gonna argue or even discuss this anymore. Do what you want. You don't understand, and fail to understand or read my posts and instead read what you want into them.

So I am not gonna post on this anymore. Figure it out yourself.

Bold.

Let me guess, your thinking I may be loosing compression cause of this right? Wrong! Any heat pouring off the turbos will only bake the coolant seals on the NON compression side of the engine. I've personally assembled engines with scorched housings on the exhaust side of the engine and had great compression. Regardless, my coolant seals are fine. I properly cool my car down with light driving b4 shutdown. This basically makes my car NA and cools everything. I also run filtered/distilled water in my cooling system which is far less corrosive than tap water. Trust me I know I little something. ;)


What happens when you heat up rubber? Or burn it, melt it...and end up with it being brittle? It shrinks. It cracks, and eventually just doesn't exist anymore (flows away with the coolant). Almost all rotor housings will have a blackened surface from the leading spark plug down. Nothing special here. A proper cool down will help immensely, but it does not change the fact that you have 2 extremely hot turbos boiling away at your coolant and coolant seals, so no, this does not basically make your car NA, that's stupid to think.


With my mileage your probably right but considering the fact that I do the water steam clean method, do you really think I would care about a few drops?



Nope! Not when someones been doing it much much longer than me. Also check out post number 33. This proves my point about 87 being more explosive and why my car starts better with 87 than 91.

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=606412&page=1&pp=15&highlight=octane


Again, these are far and few in between. Until you show me a vast majority of owners (1/4, 1/3 maybe?) using 87 safely, your point does not work. Again, octane rating is not how explosive the gas is, but rather, at what point it will explode when you don't want it to. If your car, on stock tuning, starts better with 87 than it does 91, then you have an odd car. I'm still not quite sure how you and these other "selected ones" can defy chemistry and physics, they must be some really amazing FD's.


I understand the effects of detonation perfectly in a rotary. I also understand how Mazda tuned the factory ecu and that my total compression ratio in my Fd is much higher than what people are getting in the Rx8 due to forced induction. The fact is with both engines having the same displacement, and my car making way more hp & torque, the internal pressures and stress levels in my Fd engine making 11psi boost (rougly 265hp with my mods) is alot higher than the NA Renesis period. There is no comparison but yet I can safely run 87 in my more over stressed engine. So why can't YOU comprehend that? 87 is safe in a stock Renesis. That's all I've been saying. Prove to me that 87 will cause detonation high enough that rotary's will blow apex seals in a COMPLETELY STOCK CAR with stock tuning. I have yet in all my years to hear of that happening.


Do you run your car up to 9300 rpm? Can you stay at that RPM for an extended period of time, or close (7500+ rpm)? I'm talking minutes. 5, 10, 15 minutes. Can you do that on 87? Go to a road course. I want someone to be there to document the octane of the fuel in your car, and I would like to see your car perform flawlessly (bar driver skill) throughout the entire event. Would you be afraid to do that?

There is no reason to prove to you anything - you simply aren't comprehending. "detonation high enough" - by this I assume you mean a big enough knock. Even a small, very insignificant amount of detonation is enough to pop a seal, man...these aren't piston rings. There is no head gasket to take the blow here. Nothing but apex seal.

You have yet in all your years to hear that happening? The RX8 has only been out since 2003, and most owners aren't stupid enough to run 87. The ones that do, run it in automatics, or don't do extended amounts of high-RPM racing. Sure, 87 will work just fine in an RX8 that is daily driven, and will never see the view of 8000+rpm. But honestly, who with a 6 speed RX8 will not want to run it up to red line, often, at that? 87 octane is not the proper fuel of choice for ALL scenarios, 91 is.


Who's arguing? Yes it will compensate in some degree. It's harder for fuel to pre-ignite if you have to much dumped in. Ecu's can be tuned richer to compensate for a lack of octane. I told you before...this is why the fd has such a rich 10.1 A/F ratio under full load. Mazda knew not everyone would use their recommended fuel grade so they had to compensate for that lower grade by running richer. Even tuning experts know this. The Fd can even run up to 11.5 and be safe under boost at 10psi. There is plenty of margin there. Same goes for the NA Rx8. If you still don't believe me about the compensation, I'll get proof from a rotary tuning expert who has all the respect and trust if you want.


I'd like to see this from Steve Kan, and whoever does the tuning at Mazsport. I'd like them to state specifically that running 87 octane is completely safe for all kinds of driving (cruising, highway pulls, drag strip, road course, auto-x, drift, etc), for use in the RX8, and FD with mods. On the stock tune, no piggybacks, different injectors, etc. Stock amount fuel being injected.

Oh and by the way, Mazda tunes their EMS's to run rich for government-mandated catalytic converter life, and for general precaution. A car that blow's up before the warranty is up (due to a variety of things which cause too little fuel to be injected - clogged fuel sock, dirty filter, dirty injectors, etc) is not something a company strives for.

It lives.

Not gonna argue or even discuss this anymore. Do what you want. You don't understand, and fail to understand or read my posts and instead read what you want into them.

So I am not gonna post on this anymore. Figure it out yourself.


Figure what out? I understand plenty. I know for a fact that 87 is safe in the Rx8. That's what I'm trying to get some of you to understand.

A proper cool down will help immensely, but it does not change the fact that you have 2 extremely hot turbos boiling away at your coolant and coolant seals, so no, this does not basically make your car NA, that's stupid to think.


There is nothing stupid about the fact that my original engine has lasted much longer than a huge percentage of other Fd owners. Any turbo charged engine that's being operated in a vacuum state is NA. As long as you are not on the throttle hard enough to spool the turbo's (which is exactly what a cool down is used 4) there's no reason for them to heat excessively. It's those people who stupidly shut down their engines after a hard run or think that idling is the best way to cool the car down. Hell that just generates even more heat cause now you don't have any air flow through your radiator or oil coolers. This is exactly why I think turbo timers are useless. Either way my coolant seals and my turbo's are fine cause I do a proper cool down that's beneficial in removing heat. Though my turbo's may still be hot cause of their close proxemity to the engine, they cool down faster cause I shut my engine down at a decent engine temp. Get it?


If your car, on stock tuning, starts better with 87 than it does 91, then you have an odd car. I'm still not quite sure how you and these other "selected ones" can defy chemistry and physics, they must be some really amazing FD's.


If you don't understand it's because your not reading the facts. That link and post number 33 proved my point about 87 having more heat engery. Did you not read it? Here's the quote for you:


Octane rating is the ratio of Octane to Heptane in gasoline, with higher octane gas having more octane (who would have guessed?) However:

Heat of Combustion for heptane: 44.752 MJ/kg
Heat of Combustion for octane: 44.427 MJ/kg

from the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_of_combustion

So the more Octane you have, the less energy you get when you burn it.

This chemistry lesson brought to you by the letter O.


Notice the highlighted red statement. Why do you think race fuel needs more spark to ignite fully? Same goes for E/ethanol. Lower octane gas gives you more energy but less knock protection. Higher octane gives you more knock protection but less heat energy. The extra heat energy of 87 is why my car starts better.

Again, these are far and few in between. Until you show me a vast majority of owners (1/4, 1/3 maybe?) using 87 safely, your point does not work

I don't need to provide mass results. I already explained to you how the stock tuning of the ecu allows for this.


Do you run your car up to 9300 rpm? Can you stay at that RPM for an extended period of time, or close (7500+ rpm)? I'm talking minutes. 5, 10, 15 minutes. Can you do that on 87? Go to a road course. I want someone to be there to document the octane of the fuel in your car, and I would like to see your car perform flawlessly (bar driver skill) throughout the entire event. Would you be afraid to do that?

There is no reason to prove to you anything - you simply aren't comprehending. "detonation high enough" - by this I assume you mean a big enough knock. Even a small, very insignificant amount of detonation is enough to pop a seal, man...these aren't piston rings. There is no head gasket to take the blow here. Nothing but apex seal.

You have yet in all your years to hear that happening? The RX8 has only been out since 2003, and most owners aren't stupid enough to run 87. The ones that do, run it in automatics, or don't do extended amounts of high-RPM racing. Sure, 87 will work just fine in an RX8 that is daily driven, and will never see the view of 8000+rpm. But honestly, who with a 6 speed RX8 will not want to run it up to red line, often, at that? 87 octane is not the proper fuel of choice for ALL scenarios, 91 is.


You don't pay much attention to my post do you. Old quote form this thread:

Yes depending on your driving habits. If you run the engine as it was intended & and use the full rpm range all the time, then 91 octane is the best fuel choice. If you granny drive around all the time, it's better to run the lower octane. Rotary's knock mainly happens in the upper rpm ranges under load (6k and up). If your not driving your car to it's potential, then it's pointless to run the 91. That's all I'm saying. Think about this, why run a race fuel if your just cruising on the highway? You would actually have less power because race fuel takes more spark to burn. That's a fact.


I understand fully. Your the one that doesn't comprehend what I'm saying or pay attention to what I've already posted.

I'd like to see this from Steve Kan, and whoever does the tuning at Mazsport. I'd like them to state specifically that running 87 octane is completely safe for all kinds of driving (cruising, highway pulls, drag strip, road course, auto-x, drift, etc), for use in the RX8, and FD with mods.

Again you just proved my point that you do not pay attention. When did I ever say anything about 87 was safe with mods on a STOCK tune? I SAID STOCK CAR WITH STOCK MODS. Geeez!

Oh and by the way, Mazda tunes their EMS's to run rich for government-mandated catalytic converter life, and for general precaution. A car that blow's up before the warranty is up (due to a variety of things which cause too little fuel to be injected - clogged fuel sock, dirty filter, dirty injectors, etc) is not something a company strives for.


Uhhh I knew about that when the 8's were 1st held up at port (look at my registration date). So tell my something I don't already know. That extra fuel is why the 8 can safely run 87.

God Almighty Give It A Rest Already!

Hmmm, it really diminishes my point that it wouldn't retain the all-caps I tried to use.

I never knew we were talking about anything but stock tune? You said a few times that you knew how rich the stock tune was on your FD, so you knew your margin of error. I dunno, that implies to me that you were talking about a stock tuned FD . . . .

It lives...
(getting in on the fun) :fruit:

I never knew we were talking about anything but stock tune? You said a few times that you knew how rich the stock tune was on your FD, so you knew your margin of error. I dunno, that implies to me that you were talking about a stock tuned FD . . . .


All I was talking about was stock tuning on stock Fd's. Not stock tuning on Fd's that have mods. If that were the case then yes, it would be totally stupid to run 87 under those conditions. All Fd's are tuned excessively rich from the factory. Mine is no different than anyone elses. If you through in some modifications in then all bets are off and you quickly loss that margin. I can now see where some of the confusion was coming from. I'm not trying to be at odds with anyone here. Just trying to help and state some fact as I know it and clear up some well known paranoia with-in the rotary community. With your ownership experience, I thought you were completely aware of how rich all Fd's were tuned. So obviously were both at fault for assuming each others thoughts. That tuning is why I understand the margin of error. Same goes for the Rx8.

Peace!