ie...rsx with sus mods?

They go against each other in pro racing such as ST class Grand Am racing. The RSX has beaten the RX8 as well. However, these are preparred cars with rules to even out the diferences as much as possible.
I would bet a bone stock 8 out handles a lightly modded RSX.

Consider the old Integra Type R. Still an amazing car. Honda does some amazing stuff with suspension tuning and fwd.

quick answer is YES, long answer is depends on the level of modification that is put in each car, and the driver behind the wheel.

:boring:

basically can a fwd car take a corner faster then the 8 with comparible mods. I figure the rsx is the only one that can.

Mazda MP3 went through the slalom faster than a Z06 and 360 Modena in a mag test a few years back.

Mazda MP3 went through the slalom faster than a Z06 and 360 Modena in a mag test a few years back.


Which is more a byproduct of car width than anything else...

All other things being equal, fwd will always be at a disadvantage to rwd, simply because you are asking so much of the front wheels, i.e. turning and power delivery. In any racing that allows choice (non "equalized", like GT), have you ever seen a designer choose fwd?

A simple skid pad and slalom does not completely tell you how a car will handle. There are too many factors involved. How well the car transitions from side to side, while on the brakes, while on the gas,...there are so many factors. Also it is totaly objective because people like different attributes. The slow in fast out guys like AWD because it gets the power down. I like the 8 because of the balance. It turns in great under heavy breaking and allows me to carry extra corner speed and it transitions well into the next corner. I could never get a FWD to transition in the S's or bus stop like I can the 8. To me you are less likely to get into trouble with a FWD. If I got on the gas too quick or heavy, it would just push more. Try that in the 8 and you may go around.

Another advantage of the 8 is that it does not have to be set up as stiff. So on bumpy roads or courses it will soak them up better.

Just my .02.

ie...rsx with sus mods?

Assuming the same track and same driver in both cars yes. You could easily mod a fwd car to beat a stock RX8. Stock fwd cars have many limitations and flaws but as you can see by GrandAm Cup and World Challenge if you toss enough parts at a fwd car it will go fast. Stock to stock I do not think there is a fwd car out there that will match the RX8.

For reference I just did a track day and there was an RSX there, his best lap was 5 seconds slower than mine, but I have no idea of his mods or skill level.

Assuming the same track and same driver in both cars yes. You could easily mod a fwd car to beat a stock RX8. Stock fwd cars have many limitations and flaws but as you can see by GrandAm Cup and World Challenge if you toss enough parts at a fwd car it will go fast. Stock to stock I do not think there is a fwd car out there that will match the RX8.

For reference I just did a track day and there was an RSX there, his best lap was 5 seconds slower than mine, but I have no idea of his mods or skill level.

Agreed. On top of that I wouldn't say that the RSX is the best handling FWD car, I'd put the Mini, MSP, Civic SI, and Cobalt ahead of it. I'm probably forgetting a few others as well.

Agreed. On top of that I wouldn't say that the RSX is the best handling FWD car, I'd put the Mini, MSP, Civic SI, and Cobalt ahead of it. I'm probably forgetting a few others as well.


I don't know I would put the Cobalt in that list. From what I have seen, the first thing anyone does to improve the Cobalt is to replace the rear suspension completely. It has a torsion beam in the rear.

Oh, god. Someone kill me. I am on here debating how well an FWD handles. :wallbash:

Assuming the same track and same driver in both cars yes. You could easily mod a fwd car to beat a stock RX8. Stock fwd cars have many limitations and flaws but as you can see by GrandAm Cup and World Challenge if you toss enough parts at a fwd car it will go fast. Stock to stock I do not think there is a fwd car out there that will match the RX8.

For reference I just did a track day and there was an RSX there, his best lap was 5 seconds slower than mine, but I have no idea of his mods or skill level.

your just too fast man... :rollingla haha

Is it possible that a fwd car can out handle the 8?

Yes.

your just too fast man... :rollingla haha

Someone else told me that to: http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=1695253&postcount=122

yes, when it rain

In slow tracks Autox ect. a verry light FWD (CRX, Mini Cooper) might be faster than the 8. any of the more current FWDs which are heavier, or on a faster track. NO WAY.

Keep in mind that i'm talking about lateral acceleration. (just arround the corner) unless it has a blower, the CRX or the cooper, dont stand a chance against the 8.

Have driven an RSX-S with mugen struts, sways, and tires and the 8 FAR outhandles it still. Power not quite as close but the 8 still faster. Had injen intake, greddy exhaust, headers.

The Mini Cooper S is very quick, I think I ran the same lap time in a Mini Cooper S as a RX-8

Someone else told me that to: http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=1695253&postcount=122


hooboy, I am Mr. Fix-It lately

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=1695886&postcount=130


:cwm27:

.

hooboy, I am Mr. Fix-It lately


:cwm27:

.

Maybe I could start to hide my big head under a brown paper bag.... :hahano:

lol, I can't drive my way out of a brown paper bag ... :uhh:

If I may shift gears for a moment gentleman, coach Ditka vs. a hurricane, who would win? However, before answering, know that the name of the hurricane is Hurricane Ditka.

I have a FWD car right now and one big thing I noticed was it turns harder if you're breaking while turning. My RX7s didn't seem to have that attribute. I've adjusted my approach to be a bit faster then I would in my old RWD cars knowing that I'll be breaking to get it to turn hard.

Where's redcivic with his "VTAK IS TEH R0XORS!!!11one!!!" lol just playin rc...

-Steakboy

I have a FWD car right now and one big thing I noticed was it turns harder if you're breaking while turning. My RX7s didn't seem to have that attribute. I've adjusted my approach to be a bit faster then I would in my old RWD cars knowing that I'll be breaking to get it to turn hard.


I believe it's called "weight transfer". By braking, you load your front tires to grip harder and let off on the rears to slip them. My understanding is that this is the reason FWD cars may need to take an earlier apex than RWD cars.

Maybe I could start to hide my big head under a brown paper bag.... :hahano:


ps: take a ride with Mark Chiles in a Mini, it may just alter your FWD/RWD perception, totally blew me away ... :Freak_ani

I believe it's called "weight transfer". By braking, you load your front tires (#) to grip harder and let off on the rears to slip them. My understanding is that this is the reason FWD cars (#) may need to take an earlier apex than RWD cars.
When I was in an FWD, I had to take a much earlier apex than I do in the 8. Once you get used to FWD, you can be surprisingly fast. I was faster than more than a few RWD's. It is kind of weird if you are not used to it. You apex early and it will sort of push the frount a bit. You can adjust your line (a little) with the throttle. You actualy lift a bit to tighten the line. I kept going off the inside or simply taking a totaly wrong line when I went back to RWD. It does not take long to adjust.

That is my personal experiance anyway.

When I was in an FWD, I had to take a much earlier apex than I do in the 8. Once you get used to FWD, you can be surprisingly fast. I was faster than more than a few RWD's. It is kind of weird if you are not used to it. You apex early and it will sort of push the frount a bit. You can adjust your line (a little) with the throttle. You actualy lift a bit to tighten the line. I kept going off the inside or simply taking a totaly wrong line when I went back to RWD. It does not take long to adjust.

That is my personal experiance anyway.

To drive a FWD car fast you need to have a late apex and trail brake.

I don't know I would put the Cobalt in that list. From what I have seen, the first thing anyone does to improve the Cobalt is to replace the rear suspension completely. It has a torsion beam in the rear.

Oh, god. Someone kill me. I am on here debating how well an FWD handles. :wallbash:

No matter what people are doing to them, I've seen several things that would indicate that the Cobalt SS outhandles just about every FWD car on the market.

The only sport where talent do not matter is in Racing..
money will let you race and not the talent..so difference between
car are not realy justify...
It's not like in football, Hockey, Baseball where they is draft and right on player....Ussaly owner are the driver! it's like if I could buy a NFL and play in it! with my 160 pound! and you would think it is because of my NIKE shoes that I'm bad!
I hope one day all race league will go into 1 league and driver will be Draft by team and not the opposite..!!!
I Think Nascar have better driver because they are not all there because of money...they did their way true a long process.. :)
That's it s why they is not a big difference between first and 10 position. Maybe in another country RX-8 are faster than the RSX because of the different talent...
www.racingpurposeonly.com

Dont think the cobalt win alot of race in Japan!!
And never forget about people that cheat on those event...
On the race trac in quebec, I Lap, cobalt SS and RSX...with my Mazda3 Automatic!..I don't that was because my mazda3 was faster then those car!..if you check my website with my old mazda3 I'm following a Supra Turbo!! with still my automatic!

My other thing is that you are not suppose to brake when turning guys! whatever FWD or RWD!..you are suppose to aply brake before you turn and keep a space before turning the sterring into the curve to let the weight of the car go back in neutral..same thing when it s a 'S' curve..you have to brake between those to ''S'' to put backl the balance in neutral.. ;) you will be able to get into the curve faster...

The only sport where talent do not matter is in Racing..
money will let you race and not the talent..so difference between
car are not realy justify...
It's not like in football, Hockey, Baseball where they is draft and right on player....Ussaly owner are the driver! it's like if I could buy a NFL and play in it! with my 160 pound! and you would think it is because of my NIKE shoes that I'm bad!
I hope one day all race league will go into 1 league and driver will be Draft by team and not the opposite..!!!
I Think Nascar have better driver because they are not all there because of money...they did their way true a long process.. :)
That's it s why they is not a big difference between first and 10 position. Maybe in another country RX-8 are faster than the RSX because of the different talent...
www.racingpurposeonly.com

Dont think the cobalt win alot of race in Japan!!
And never forget about people that cheat on those event...
On the race trac in quebec, I Lap, cobalt SS and RSX...with my Mazda3 Automatic!..I don't that was because my mazda3 was faster then those car!..if you check my website with my old mazda3 I'm following a Supra Turbo!! with still my automatic!

My other thing is that you are not suppose to brake when turning guys! whatever FWD or RWD!..you are suppose to aply brake before you turn and keep a space before turning the sterring into the curve to let the weight of the car go back in neutral..same thing when it s a 'S' curve..you have to brake between those to ''S'' to put backl the balance in neutral.. ;) you will be able to get into the curve faster...

English not your primary language?

The only sport where talent do not matter is in Racing..
money will let you race and not the talent..so difference between
car are not realy justify...
It's not like in football, Hockey, Baseball where they is draft and right on player....Ussaly owner are the driver! it's like if I could buy a NFL and play in it! with my 160 pound! and you would think it is because of my NIKE shoes that I'm bad!
I hope one day all race league will go into 1 league and driver will be Draft by team and not the opposite..!!!
I Think Nascar have better driver because they are not all there because of money...they did their way true a long process.. :)
That's it s why they is not a big difference between first and 10 position. Maybe in another country RX-8 are faster than the RSX because of the different talent...
www.racingpurposeonly.com

Dont think the cobalt win alot of race in Japan!!
And never forget about people that cheat on those event...
On the race trac in quebec, I Lap, cobalt SS and RSX...with my Mazda3 Automatic!..I don't that was because my mazda3 was faster then those car!..if you check my website with my old mazda3 I'm following a Supra Turbo!! with still my automatic!

My other thing is that you are not suppose to brake when turning guys! whatever FWD or RWD!..you are suppose to aply brake before you turn and keep a space before turning the sterring into the curve to let the weight of the car go back in neutral..same thing when it s a 'S' curve..you have to brake between those to ''S'' to put backl the balance in neutral.. ;) you will be able to get into the curve faster...

You should study up on racing a bit more. There are lots of feeder series and I am not aware of a single owner racing his own car in the top racing series.

Talent does matter since most all racing series also do a lot equalising of the playing field through various restrictions.

Also read up on trail braking since you still believe brakes are not used while turning.

The only sport where talent do not matter is in Racing..
money will let you race and not the talent.You obviously have no idea what you're talking about -- either you've never raced, or you raced unsuccessfully and are trying to blame your lack of success on something other than lack of talent.

us defeated car owners know this only too well :hahano:

You should study up on racing a bit more. There are lots of feeder series and I am not aware of a single owner racing his own car in the top racing series.

Talent does matter since most all racing series also do a lot equalising of the playing field through various restrictions.

Also read up on trail braking since you still believe brakes are not used while turning.exactly

I had both a 97 Type R and the RX-8 for about a year, and got to drive them back-to-back a lot. The Type R was the most neutral car I'd ever driven, but I'd still say the RX-8 outhandles it. You could rotate the Type R with the throttle but it took a LOT of throttle. Being able to just blip the throttle in the 8 can very predictably kick the tail out when you need oversteer.

For the Type R to even be able to induce on-throttle oversteer was a huge accomplishment for a FWD car ten years ago. It took tremendous balance in a very light car, a really good front LSD, and a suspension that was among the stiffest showroom-stock suspensions ever.

FWD cars are usually nose heavy so they are harder on front tires and front brakes and have a higher inertia to overcome in order to change direction. All things being equal the better balance of the '8 and its lower polar inertia should win the day given a real world race.

As for oversteer on FWD my '84 Jetta GLI responded well to lift throttle oversteer.

To drive a FWD car (#) fast you need to have a late apex and trail brake (#).
An early apex always seemed to be the fastest line for me. Maybe my driving style, setup, or maybe I was over driving the car. Duno. I am no pro. That is for sure.

As for oversteer on FWD my '84 Jetta GLI responded well to lift throttle oversteer.

Good point - I should have said on-throttle oversteer.

just think, fwd lift throttle to turn, rwd apply throttle to turn.
which car will take the coner faster??

There are alot of nice FWD cars out there but I don't believe any of them come close to RWD or AWD cars.

How many exotic / supercars are FWD? That would be ZERO!!!!!
How many F1 cars are FWD? 0
CART Series? 0
GT1? 0
WRC? 0
Fastest (Top Fuel) Drag cars? 0
God forgive me for this one but.... how many NASCAR's are FWD? 0

Seems simple to me...

^ Uhhh... no.

Talent DOES matter! I think you over simplified here. Given two identical car setups, talent will make the difference. Just because the difference between 1 and 10 is not that great does not mean talent doesn't matter. If everything else is equal, talent will carry the day. In fact with a smaller budget and less of a car, talent can make up for it. This is true at virtually every level of racing.

The only sport where talent do not matter is in Racing..
money will let you race and not the talent..so difference between
car are not realy justify...
It's not like in football, Hockey, Baseball where they is draft and right on player....Ussaly owner are the driver! it's like if I could buy a NFL and play in it! with my 160 pound! and you would think it is because of my NIKE shoes that I'm bad!
I hope one day all race league will go into 1 league and driver will be Draft by team and not the opposite..!!!
I Think Nascar have better driver because they are not all there because of money...they did their way true a long process.. :)
That's it s why they is not a big difference between first and 10 position. Maybe in another country RX-8 are faster than the RSX because of the different talent...
www.racingpurposeonly.com

Dont think the cobalt win alot of race in Japan!!
And never forget about people that cheat on those event...
On the race trac in quebec, I Lap, cobalt SS and RSX...with my Mazda3 Automatic!..I don't that was because my mazda3 was faster then those car!..if you check my website with my old mazda3 I'm following a Supra Turbo!! with still my automatic!

My other thing is that you are not suppose to brake when turning guys! whatever FWD or RWD!..you are suppose to aply brake before you turn and keep a space before turning the sterring into the curve to let the weight of the car go back in neutral..same thing when it s a 'S' curve..you have to brake between those to ''S'' to put backl the balance in neutral.. ;) you will be able to get into the curve faster...

This Mini doesn't seem to handle too bad.

If I had a choice between the new and this one it would be a tough decision.

I'd venture to say that this car would out handle an 8.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/97893/better_than_the_new_mini/

That mini was just crazy. I loved the stoppie. First time seeing a car do that.

They go against each other in pro racing such as ST class Grand Am racing. The RSX has beaten the RX8 as well. However, these are preparred cars with rules to even out the diferences as much as possible.
I would bet a bone stock 8 out handles a lightly modded RSX.

yea right...... i had an 06 rsx type s a-spec and owned many of 8's with and without mods... 6speed and auto's when i had stock and a intake after that

yea right...... i had an 06 rsx type s a-spec and owned many of 8's with and without mods... 6speed and auto's when i had stock and a intake after that

Wow really? I am still shopping around for a good track car. What track did you race on? What lap time are you getting? How long does your brake holds up? How much camber are you running in front? Do you have any in car video to show? Did you race with NASA or SCCA? Showroom Stock class?

Anyways, 'Handles better'. 'What kind of measurement should we look at?' as one of the previous post have already raised the question. Look at the following statement:

Car#1's average cornering speed is 10mph faster than Car#2's average cornering speed.

Does it mean Car#1 'outhandles' Car#2? Or it simply means Car#1 is a 'faster' car? Does it mean Car#2's handling is bad? The above statement is true when comparing cars like Z06 to a Miata for example. Z06 have a higher cornering speed due to its width and tire size, but does it mean Miata's 'handling' is not as good as Z06's?

So what exactly is 'outhandle'?

To me, the handling of a car merely means: 'Does the car alter from the intended path chosen by the driver, and when it does, how easy is it to correct?'

Just my .02