I wonder if there is a relationship between Pre-Mixing and the Marbles in a Can issue that some have? Could Pre-Mixing (without disconnecting the MOP) be contributing to the issue by causing more carbon buildup than usual?

:nono: or :yesnod:

Let the debate begin .

I can tell you that since premixing, I have a LOT less soot on the exhaust tips than I used to. It still gets dirty, but it's a light color, and very little, instead of pure black gunk.

My thought is that adding additional 2-cycle oil (albeit good synthetic oil with low ash content) into the combustion chamber with the oil that is already provided via the MOP will mean more total carbon is created during the combustion process.

More total carbon in the combustion chamber will cause more carbon deposits and/or carbon "marbles" being formed, leading to the "Marbles in the Can" syndrome. While MITC may also happen without pre-mixing, I would think it might make the problem worse.

There may be seal lubrication benefits by pre-mixing, but is it causing carbon buildup and MITC as well?

When I hear talk of marbles in a can, that sounds like detonation...

I can tell you that since premixing, I have a LOT less soot on the exhaust tips than I used to. It still gets dirty, but it's a light color, and very little, instead of pure black gunk.

This may be true, but this is after the catalyst has dealt with much of what is in the exhaust - I am not sure this a very good representation.

My point is, I do not see how adding more oil to the combustion process can produce less carbon deposits. Other chemicals get rid of carbon (solvents, etc. that are used in fuel cleaners) but oil burning will just product more carbon.

When I hear talk of marbles in a can, that sounds like detonation...

Carbon buildup increases detonation issues in most issues.

My thought is that adding additional 2-cycle oil (albeit good synthetic oil with low ash content) into the combustion chamber with the oil that is already provided via the MOP will mean more total carbon is created during the combustion process.

More total carbon in the combustion chamber will cause more carbon deposits and/or carbon "marbles" being formed, leading to the "Marbles in the Can" syndrome. While MITC may also happen without pre-mixing, I would think it might make the problem worse.

There may be seal lubrication benefits by pre-mixing, but is it causing carbon buildup and MITC as well?


which would lead to better sealing and complete burn. and less deposits on the tips?

beers :beer:

The only relationship I could imagine between detonation and pre-mixed two-stroke oil would be if your ratio was in the 2% range, or richer. (.....that would be a full quart of oil per tank!)

Most two-stroke oils have really sucky Octane ratings, and can bring the rating of a whole tank of fuel down, if it were used in ratios traditionally seen in lawn equipment.

I can't see any connection at the levels "rotary folk" would be using.

S

When I hear talk of marbles in a can, that sounds like detonation...
Its not and I just got a JVC high def digital cam. This sound is loud in my car on the driver side and sounds like fluid moving fast. Its real loud when my car is could too. I'll try to get some vid up but its just so hard to drown out the sound from the road when I place my cam on the floor board. I also hear a nother odd sound when my AT trans shifts but I think that one is normal.
I put the sound clips up when I get it mixed down.

Edit: I just had my engine replaced so I hope its not detonation.

I thought it was decided to be the heater core?

If you can post the sounds then Club Marbles can give our opinion.

I thought it was decided to be the heater core?

I think at the very least our sound and Mike's is probably the heater core.

Marbles in a can is vague - it can also mean the SDAIS going nuts, like mine.

And I still don't know what the hell premix is.

Raptor, its when you a little bit of special oil into the gas tank before you fill up.

Thus gas arrives at the engine with oil already in it as opposed to picking up oil once inside the engine.

The best way to generate the "MIAC"and hear it very very clearly is to run the car on 1st/2nd gear to around 9500RPM and then let go of the throttle and let the revs come down slowly. You can hear the sound very clearly by itself without the roar of the exhaust noise.

maybe you can get a better recording that way.

i would like to know why such a few number of guys have added an OMP adapter to their 8's. i think that this might be the best mod for the 8 & it's only about $100.

The best way to generate the "MIAC"and hear it very very clearly is to run the car on 1st/2nd gear to around 9500RPM and then let go of the throttle and let the revs come down slowly. You can hear the sound very clearly by itself without the roar of the exhaust noise.

maybe you can get a better recording that way.That sounds like you're describing the light engine popping noises that the car makes normally.

And I still don't know what the hell premix is.
It's just adding regular 2-stroke oil into your gas tank before filling it up with fuel. You'll likely only need to add 4 oz of oil. this will make sure your seals are properly lubricated.

You could also take it a step further, and disable your MOP completely, and only use premix, reason being that premix is nicer and cleaner than burning engine oil.

I have recently noticed what sounds more like sand in a can/blender. It appeared after I intalled my supercat. Is this likely the heater core noise? Have we decided if it is fixable?

The sand in a can noise was most obvious when I was running on a tank of 93 octane from a little rinky-dink gas station. I always run 93, but could it have been stale or diluted or something to maybe cause some detonation?

Great discussion - two questions.

Independent of the Marbles issue, does adding premix to an engine with the MOP on contribute to more carbon buildup,when this engine is already prone to it.

I do like the MOP modification idea, so that you can use 2 cycle oil only being fed into the engine - this could acually lubricate the seals better and reduce the carbon and other junk buildup in the engine. Does anyone make separate tank that you can hook up to the MOP and feed it clean 2-cycle oil only?

Great discussion - two questions.

Independent of the Marbles issue, does adding premix to an engine with the MOP on contribute to more carbon buildup,when this engine is already prone to it.

I do like the MOP modification idea, so that you can use 2 cycle oil only being fed into the engine - this could acually lubricate the seals better and reduce the carbon and other junk buildup in the engine. Does anyone make separate tank that you can hook up to the MOP and feed it clean 2-cycle oil only? Richard Sohn sells an adapter for the renesis OMP. it can be found if you do a search. it sells for about $90. there is a DIY on the turborenesis website. check it out... real easy to do. :ylsuper:

yesterday i began looking for some kind of auxiliary plastic fuel/oil tank that i could use for this mod. i had a hard timing coming up w/ decent search results. i tried motorcycle & moped online shops to no avail. :sad:
i refuse to give up my windshield washer tank! :nono:
can anyone help?
thanks

I did some searching, so to save everyone else time, here's a link for more info on the mod:

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=9772

Another noob question - what's MOP? lol.

I'll search...maybe...

MOP/OMP = Metering Oil Pump or Oil Metering Pump

Rhythmic; so far we haven't found any cure for the noise. Where does your sound come from? Run a couple more tanks and see if the noise goes away; if it does it's most likely your gas. Also, feel free to join the party in the Marbles thread and post your observations. We've found that not everyone has the same marbles.

I wouldn't quite call them marbles, but I did have a buzzing sound from 5,700 rpm - 6,100 rpm and again right around 8,500 rpm - redline. I talked to Moon from Pettitt while he was at the Dragon in September. He moved with my secondary intake valve (I believe that's what it was) around a bit, and since then, haven't had a problem. Bad part is, at the same time I started running Pettitt's premix....so I can't definately say which one it was.

How did he move the secondary intake valve?

Yeah, how?

It was dark, I was on the driver's side of the car, he leaned in from the passenger side, and did something to make a "flapping" sound and asked if it could be that sound repeating itself really quickly. So yeah, I would guess he was moving the secondary valves.

I did some searching, so to save everyone else time, here's a link for more info on the mod:

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=9772

Has anyone done this mod? Do you think it works well?

I like this idea much, much better than premixing as it should provide the proper oil amount to the engine with a better quality (for the purpose), cleaner, and cleaner burning oil. This has to help reduce and might even eliminate the carbon buildup issues.

Let me know if others have done this and what they think as I am really interested in doing this mod.

Ok, wierd sounds that ive herd, a rattle in the exaust, I still hear it and havent empteyed it out yet though but I now its pieces of the cat or the stock exaust, ive gotten mine to the point of glowing all the way to the tips, I think I rattled a couple pieces of baffle off to add to it, gona check my cat in a few days but I dont see my cat being clogged. As for shudder valves, some times on a stock car you can here them slap open, that can be cured by putting a restrictor in the vac hose going to the highest valve. Motor mounts have been giveing problems also.

marbles sound went away after I brought it in for recall. Now it rev's super smooth like butter. Sounds like a turbine engine

Has anyone done this mod? Do you think it works well?

I like this idea much, much better than premixing as it should provide the proper oil amount to the engine with a better quality (for the purpose), cleaner, and cleaner burning oil. This has to help reduce and might even eliminate the carbon buildup issues.

Let me know if others have done this and what they think as I am really interested in doing this mod.

Anyone?

MOP/OMP = Metering Oil Pump or Oil Metering Pump

Rhythmic; so far we haven't found any cure for the noise. Where does your sound come from? Run a couple more tanks and see if the noise goes away; if it does it's most likely your gas. Also, feel free to join the party in the Marbles thread and post your observations. We've found that not everyone has the same marbles.

My sound comes from behind the glove compartment, and is completely intermittent. Maybe 20-25% of the time I notice it. Sounds just like sand being shook around in a can.

The problem with bad gas is youl get a ping or tsick sound. Its hard to get a naturly aspirated rotory to ping, it would mean either a little water or really bad gas, so bad youd smell it.

My sound comes from behind the glove compartment, and is completely intermittent. Maybe 20-25% of the time I notice it. Sounds just like sand being shook around in a can.

I think you have what Mike, zenmoused, and I have. The conclusion we've come up with is that it's probably not the engine; maybe the water pump or heater core. Don't quote me though, this is just a conclusion from some hearing observations. It could actually be detonation and all four of our engines will grenade tomorrow!

marbles sound went away after I brought it in for recall. Now it rev's super smooth like butter. Sounds like a turbine engine


Mine went away for a few days after the recall then came back. I feel it was the PCM recalibrating. I cant run reg unless its cool out . If its over 80 deg, I have to run prem or it will ping(MIAC). Going to try Carbon Cleaners then try reg-fuel again, it ran the first 20k fine on reg.

Mine went away for a few days after the recall then came back. I feel it was the PCM recalibrating. I cant run reg unless its cool out . If its over 80 deg, I have to run prem or it will ping(MIAC).
Why would running premix stop you from pinging? If anything, the premix will lower your octane.

Why would running premix stop you from pinging? If anything, the premix will lower your octane.


I'm not running a premix oil to lubricate, I'm running a Carbon-Cleaner. I'm going to try to reduce the carbon buildup so it wont ping on reg 87 fuel(it did not the first 20k). I feel the rich mix to try to make emissons are the cause. I have to run prem now and will til I dont need it.

I'm not running a premix oil to lubricate, I'm running a Carbon-Cleaner. I'm going to try to reduce the carbon buildup so it wont ping on reg 87 fuel(it did not the first 20k). I feel the rich mix to try to make emissons are the cause. I have to run prem now and will til I dont need it.

Premix is generally thought of as a 2-cycle oil, which is not the best stuff for carbon cleanup.

For a good one-time cleaning use BG44k and if you want something to add to every tank to keep it clean use FP60 from Lube Control - both are great products and you can get much info/endorsements at the BITOG site if you want to look into them.

FP60 is supposed to contribute to a more efficient combustion as well (and more MPG) - may be able to return to 87 octane while using without pinging if that is your goal.

I'm not running a premix oil to lubricate, I'm running a Carbon-Cleaner. I'm going to try to reduce the carbon buildup so it wont ping on reg 87 fuel(it did not the first 20k). I feel the rich mix to try to make emissons are the cause. I have to run prem now and will til I dont need it.
i think that regular use of a carbon cleaner should be standard protocol for every 8. that's why i use lucas top cylinder lube as part of my premix. i also use sea foam through the brake booster at every oil change.
what are the rest of you guys using???

Premix is generally thought of as a 2-cycle oil, which is not the best stuff for carbon cleanup.

For a good one-time cleaning use BG44k and if you want something to add to every tank to keep it clean use FP60 from Lube Control - both are great products and you can get much info/endorsements at the BITOG site if you want to look into them.

FP60 is supposed to contribute to a more efficient combustion as well (and more MPG) - may be able to return to 87 octane while using without pinging if that is your goal.


The BG44K & FP60 are two on my list I'm allso looking for Chevron Techron, have you seen this one? How many others have had good luck with these getting rid of the detonaion marbles. I will run a tank of prem this weekend with one of these in it, then add reg Monday and see if the 1 tank did any good.

i don't understand why some of you are even using anything less than premium!!!
this car should ONLY run on PREMIUM!!!
carbon buildup will occur on engines using high octane fuel.... it will be much worse if you use cheap gas!!!

The BG44K & FP60 are two on my list I'm allso looking for Chevron Techron, have you seen this one? How many others have had good luck with these getting rid of the detonaion marbles. I will run a tank of prem this weekend with one of these in it, then add reg Monday and see if the 1 tank did any good.

Techron is also very good, IMHO probably second to 44K for quick cleanup. Chevron makes two versions of this, the full strength "Techron" and the slightly less strong "ProGuard". 4 bottles of Proguard can be had at Costco for $10, a pretty good deal if cost is your primary consideration. If you care about the best cleaning possible independent of price, then 44k is it - period.

i don't understand why some of you are even using anything less than premium!!!
this car should ONLY run on PREMIUM!!!
carbon buildup will occur on engines using high octane fuel.... it will be much worse if you use cheap gas!!!

I agree that premium is preferred as it helps prevent detonation and has better cleaning - I only use premium and FP60.

But, you could probably get by with a cheaper brand of premium, or possibly 87 or 89 octane, if you run Lube Control FP60 as greatly helps combustion and has great cleaners which may reduce the dependency on premium fuel.

Also, Carbon buildup has nothing to do with "high octane fuel" - carbon is produced by the burning of all fuels, independent of octane, and is increased in rotaries by incomplete burning of the fuel (why we get worse fuel mileage) and the oil addition from the MOP. Carbon buildup also creates more detonation issues - the old vicious circle.

These carbon-producting characteristics of the rotary are why it is vital to get good cleaners in your fuel either by running premium gas all the time, adding good cleaners into the fuel, or both as I do.

does installing ceramic seals eliminate the need for MOP? Why hasn't Mazda gone to ceramic, cost?

My Shinka has 900 miles and I just bought a case of Pettit's Protek, I also have used Techron in my Jeep Hemi with great results, can that be added to Protek?

My Shinka has 900 miles and I just bought a case of Pettit's Protek, I also have used Techron in my Jeep Hemi with great results, can that be added to Protek?

While I am not a premix fan, Yes you can add Techron with it (and should add something to clean carbon).

I would go with a cleaner you can add along with the premix into every tank, like FP60 (or the upcoming FP3000). FP60 is added a 1oz per 5 gallons, so about 2-3 oz per refill is all you need and a $33/gallon, does not cost much to run and works great, including helping MPG.

Has anyone done this mod? Do you think it works well?

I like this idea much, much better than premixing as it should provide the proper oil amount to the engine with a better quality (for the purpose), cleaner, and cleaner burning oil. This has to help reduce and might even eliminate the carbon buildup issues.

Let me know if others have done this and what they think as I am really interested in doing this mod.

This mod should work just fine since its only redirecting oil from another source to be injected. The only worry is forgeting to top up the 2 stroke oil unlikely by the owner but when the car is lend to someone else.

While I am not a premix fan, Yes you can add Techron with it (and should add something to clean carbon).

I would go with a cleaner you can add along with the premix into every tank, like FP60 (or the upcoming FP3000). FP60 is added a 1oz per 5 gallons, so about 2-3 oz per refill is all you need and a $33/gallon, does not cost much to run and works great, including helping MPG.do you have a good source for buying it? I looked online and the place that makes it wants $118 per gallon.

http://o2asis.com/

do you have a good source for buying it? I looked online and the place that makes it wants $118 per gallon.

http://o2asis.com/

That is not the manufacturer - must be some ripoff place - buy directly from Lube Control - it is $33/gallon plus about $8 shipping via FedEx Ground. Here is the link to order.

http://lcdinc.zoovy.com/product/FP60GAL

I don't know why everyone callis it pining and marbles in a can.

From what I understand pinging is 10x worse in a rotory than a piston engine.

The detenation will destroy the seals right away. And all of the complainers say it happens all the time.

Besides we have a very good ping sensor in the Renesis. In fact too good as it retards the timing sometimes from other noises.

Many have documented this including Racing Beat.

So if you are getting ping, how is that possible? The knock sensor should reduce the timing right away so you wouldn't be ablt to hear it.

Basicly what you are hearing is the secondary valves opening up or the water in your heater core.

Why can Mazda race this engine in F1 and several other people take it to the track and not have the engine blow up?

I have had this noise before and how come I don't have a new engine?

Why can Mazda race this engine in F1 and several other people take it to the track and not have the engine blow up?
Mazda does not race this engine, or any engine at any time, in F1. Are you referring to the Formula Mazda/Star Mazda series?

yep

Jim Mederer actually told me that the MIL sensor in the Renesis is not very good. He said that it'll detect ping when there isn't any and sometimes won't detect ping when it does exist.

The best way to generate the "MIAC"and hear it very very clearly is to run the car on 1st/2nd gear to around 9500RPM and then let go of the throttle and let the revs come down slowly. You can hear the sound very clearly by itself without the roar of the exhaust noise.
What you described seems like the shoot-flames technique lol...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4187173837968708531&q=rx8+flames
at the end of the video there's a popping sound each time... think it's backfire

I used mobil regular once outa my soon 21000 miles.

All other times, BP, Shell, Mobil , LukOil/Getty, Sunco. All Premiumn

and of course, I've been premixing for a while. and actually the Idemitsu Premix is the best one so far. Not costly, aboug 4-5 buckz a quart for 5-6 fillups ? Smoother revving, about 1 mpg better. Carbon I dont know, theres no way to tell unless I hack my Renesis up. which I wont be doing it until maybe 60 Miles. (I want to hack it up and see it inside, but not yet.)

I
and of course, I've been premixing for a while. and actually the Idemitsu Premix is the best one so far.

I am going to install the Richard Sohn Adapter to run premix only into the engine and intend to run the Idemitsu for this.

What you described seems like the shoot-flames technique lol...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4187173837968708531&q=rx8+flames
at the end of the video there's a popping sound each time... think it's backfire

no no no, not the backfire.

I didn't mean you just take your foot off the throttle. I meant gently throttle down. You could can the rattling of the Marbles very clearly.

BTW, since my last post, I did the recall and the now I only hear the "MIAC" sound the first time I red line the car each time I drive it. Afterwards, I can't reproduce the sound until after an overnight break.

In some cases this MIC can be Heater Hose related...see this link on repair Fix..

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=3330162&postcount=295

In some cases this MIC can be Heater Hose related...see this link on repair Fix..

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=3330162&postcount=295

ash,

i have been gone for a while.. new toy.. but you, almost 3 year bump? to funny.

beers :beer: