Quite a reputation RX8Club has going for itself ...
 

only on RX8Club are forum vendors allowed to rip off members without recourse, over three years and counting mind you:

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?...6&postcount=43

I wonder how quickly the situation would resolve itself if the vendor and all related threads were cutoff until it occurred ... but obviously nobody around here cares since it has been permitted to exist for so long

well you're in a mood today aren't you
this should make the day go by quicker :lol:

Based on this:

from this:

The admins / mods could pretty much just care less.

Instead of complaining here, it is more wise to go to the root source:

I think that's probably inaccurate. Every forum I've ever been to has had a similar indemnification clause. That doesn't mean they don't care, that means they don't want to (and shouldn't have to) pay through the nose when somebody like Jeff allegedly goes rogue and leaves a bunch of dissatisfied customers in his wake.

that's because 90% of forums out there inherit their terms of use from the company that the forum software was purchased from (vBulletin (aka InternetBrands)).

Curious though, what prevents me from paying the fees and becoming a vendor on this page, only doing business with international buyers, advertising a product, and sending them dirt?

Nobody is asking the forum staff to be liable for transactions. They do have control over certain activities though and it is within their power to invoke that control should they see fit. The precedent on this very forum is that both vendors and members have been dealt with accordingly for their actions and behavior. We are all guests at the Forum Admin's discretion. I also don't consider it proper to go higher up the chain without at least first providing the opportunity to address it at the lower level first.

Just out of curiosity, how do you personally feel about the situation and if you were the head czar here what would you do, if anything, about it?

Just for the record...

Admin and Mods DO CARE what goes on here, I can assure you Mods and particularly Admin requested information concerning this subject matter, relevant documentation was supplied by the Seller to Admin and it was concluded that all the material supplied appeared bona-fide.

As far as all the machinations as to whether or not the goods were delivered to the correct receiver/address, or signed by the correct receiver/buyer, or the goods were what was declared by the Seller Stateside who really knows.

Contrary from what the Seller said, information posted on USPS website says that the Seller must initiate a trace for missing, or partial supply, or any other claims of non delivery of insured goods.
Even though documentation says the consignment was signed it has not declared by whom, or who was the individual(s) (company/courier) who handled and hand delivered the consignment....a formal trace would have confirmed this once and for all, that allocated period allowed by USPS has now well and truly expired Stateside.

Just for the record you are referring to the wrong customer. There is still one person outstanding; LuxLuc, as acknowledged by the vendor in Sept/2011. Luxluc has not received any communication from the vendor since then.

here is a summary of dates/discussion: https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...5&postcount=78

basically the vendor feigned a lame excuse and all you guys went about your merry way, allowing the same situation to still exist

not only that, but the vendor was then allowed vendor status following his split-up from the prior partnership even though this situation still existed

at the same time another forum vendor of bad standing had his status revoked after establishing it under an alias; RX8 Performance.

as we have seen for the last 3+ years, saying something i.e. we care, is one thing, showing it is something else



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Team: Problem is, anyone with a grudge/ axe to grind (NOT saying that your situation is) can claim "I was wronged" Just to damage somebody else. The admins need solid/ irrefutable proof before they can take "punitive action" against a vendor, otherwise they would be taking sides prematurely.

Otherwise, Incation is teh best action they can take (and it is not an endorsement to either party) just a refusal to participate in what, until solid evidence is presented becomes a "he said- she said" situation.

Payment receipts, pictures of parts delivered broken (wit the shipping label) and copies of correspondence to/ from the vendor, and financial institution (attempted Paypal resolution center, or Stop- payment to a check) Perhaps a letter to small- claims court

... would go a long way towards giving documentation clout to your argument so that the admins can take appropriate action, if warranted.

......

NO...I was REFERRING to Paimons original post, is the OK with YOU?

And Really..... there is another customer who has received nothing, gee I don't know how I missed that...!

And for the RECORD!
https://www.rx8club.com/mazdamaniac-183/luxembourg-turbo-229431/

None of what you are posting is new to any mods or any other member...

It was a mod who suggested the other Buyer start his own thread to try and resolve his issue and get it out of the 'noise' of the other person's issue.

We know the Seller has made a commitment...

What is OK for me is for LuxLuc, who paid for a turbo kit in full in Dec. 2008, to be taken care of one way or another. Frankly I could care less about anything else including what anyone thinks of me personally or my motives, let alone emphasized commentary by YOU. If it takes me making a total ass out of myself then so be it.

:rofl:

Well, speaking strictly from a 3rd parties standpoint, I am just confused by the situation. It just seems like it is hard to get answers and questions are ignored. Frankly I don't care who is wrong and who is right, and my being confused / ticked about the situation has nothing to do with a "he is wrong / he is right" type of attitude, but as a consumer I am sitting here I look at the situation(s) and say to myself "If he adverts a product I really want, can I really trust that he will deliver" :

-- Were the kits delivered to the individuals who posted
-- Why was he let go from BHR shortly after
-- Why are posts ignored
-- Why, if there is some doubt, is he able to be a vendor here

Which leads me to the second question of "what would (i) do". I feel that the admins have a responsibility to protect the people they provide this service (the forum) to. If there are people expressing concerns, or possible scamming, they should be dealt with immediately. Other than Zoom's recent post, I have not really seen the issues addressed by an admin and an answer demanded. Honestly, if I owned this site (which I have developed, administered, and delivered many forums) it would be my duty to let my audience know that "this is an issue, and I am looking into it". I wouldn't let said vendor continue business on these forums until there is proof that these accusations are indeed false. Granted some peopel are going to say "innocent till proven guilty", but contrary to popular belief, that comes second to protecting customers of a service you provide (us members).

I completely understand what you are saying, but unfortunately most of your response contains "seller said / seller must [do]" ... maybe admins do not have the authority or want to get involved, but the owner of this forum's responsibility is too look at the situation and say "one of our members feels like he got f**ked over ... to protect other members, we need to revoke vendor status until the vendor can show us that these accusations are falsified"


Again, this entire post isn't a "admins SHOULD mods SHOULD etc"... i am merely answering the initial question presented to me which was "what would you do if you were in charge here"

Laugh your down under off all you want, but let's review the history.

About 3.5 years ago a number of people paid if full for turbo kits from said vendor. A litlle over a year later I started posting a simple "wow" as the issue of people left hanging with little - none communication became an issue. It slowly ramped up from there until it became a major forum pissing match 2.5 - 3 years after purchase with every mf'ing excuse under the sun and almost zero communication to the 10+ people still hung out. Where was the Admin staff this whole time?

Then finally when the last kit couldn't be weasled out of there comes another excuse, followed by crickets and zero communication on every level. The vendor got challenged directly by me again, and yet by all accounts the customer still appeared to receive the silent treatment. Still it took another escalation to get some kind of acknowledgement per the link you provided earlier in this thread.

So go ahead and laugh it up because you're not looking any different to some people.

Why is this guy still allowed to do business here? Haven't the people that bailed him out distancing themselves from him as well? Other people were railroaded out of here back in the day. Shady and disappointing. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

"my recent post" ? i was the one that actually got involved and got the info from Jeff and Im the one that actually tracked it myself and then went to the post office MYSELF and got the answer myself. there is nothing to be done by any of us about the french turbo. a box weighing that much was shipped by jeff with the postal service . it went to france and was according to them delivered to the address on the package which was verified as the correct address. thats it end of story. anything else to do with that transaction is between the two of them and lawyers.


that leaves Luc. How exactly would it be better for Luc if Jeff were banned? this is the ONLY place he can get ANY communication. As for whether he SHOULD be a vendor here is up to IB and to you guys. If there isnt enough customers because of the way he treats customers and others than he wont be a vendor here because he wont be able to afford it.

As for keeping track of individual complaints about one vendor over protracted periods of time. sure we could probably keep a better eye on whats been going on for luc and when i saw this thread i was actually a little embarrassed for having not kept up with it in so long. thats why i asked for ran update from Jeff. but seriously we're talking about over Christmas and New years and my own business going to shit and School changes and winter colds etc etc etc. people need to pipe up if they have issues. report buttons and pms do work

I can both appreciate and empathize with your position on all the points you touched on, but with said vendor still thinking he is above having to communicate with the person who's money took 40 months ago it seems that the only option left to address this is a scorched earth policy.

However, the vendors approach in general is to not accept or use forum communications for addressing his business matters so the idea of keeping him around for this purpose seems questionable. Coupled with the fact that he clearly has not been making any attempt to respond to the LuxLuc it seems like the ax and a chopping block are in order. The situation itself has generated more than enough excuses to last an entire lifetime.

todays forecast: sh-tstorm on the horizon

https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...5&postcount=49

Get a life

glad you could join us

Yet you have nothing to say about somebody who paid 40 months ago and can't even get a courtesy reply from the person who took it?

Get some ethical standards.

I don't need ethical standards, i'm machiavellan.
Honestly, I don't care about what the seller did. He screwed up, at least in the delays, and that's it. End of the story.
What amazes me is that these "victims" waited for so long before filing anything. I know a lot more about both european and international laws than you do and the lack of protection they have now is completely their fault.
4 weeks production date? Expect an email after 5 weeks and a refund action after 6 unless communication (which lacked) was provided.

They dragged their feet just as much as the seller did.

The real problem here is your persona. Your attitude is laughable to say the least since you are in no way involved in this situation and you're using it just to satisfy some previous disagreements with said seller.
This thread, continuous useless bumps of the bad guy thread, usual references to the situation in unrelated threads all show what you're up to.
Yet you do nothing about stopping another vendor who stole money and parts from customers to do his job when somebody posts about his products?
Talk about ethics...
I see a 40 months unrelated comment in a 13b swap thread, yet no 120,000+$ and some lawsuits in the engine mounts one.

Have fun.

G

You are mistaken. I have disagreements of opinion with the seller, but not in the context that you suggest. My only disagreement in your context is his refusal to assist or communicate. I even attempted to assist the seller by drumming up business for his webinar and paying for it twice myself when I didn't need to (fell asleep during the 2nd one). The seller would like you to believe otherwise because it helps direct the attention away from what has occurred. When we were informed that all the kits shipped my attention went else where.

The reason this went on so long is what I am complaining about. All the excuses, all the assurances from everyone here that there was nothing to worry about. How it was handled by everyone is exactly what has enabled it to have gone on this long, and what allows it to continue to this day and probably more to come. To this degree many of us bear a responsibility. I only wish I had spoken up sooner about it.

It's true the seller gets a lot of assistance with resources. I know because I was one of the people who helped. The idea that all of the mods, all of the galavanting track expeditions, etc. over this period all occurred for free is just not believable. The money for these kits has likely been consumed many times over. 40 months for a turbo kit you can have built in a week or two clearly shows that this has never been a priority to the seller.

You can try to spin it that way if you want, plenty of people know otherwise.

There's just one way to spin it really and it's the usual one from a legal point of view.
It doesn't matter what seller did with the money, what it matters is the lack of communication and delay.
Crying after years, like some unsatisfied users are doing, is useless. Again, the seller's is at fault when you consider the lack of product delivery in a timely fashion. The unsatisfied customers are completely at fault crying and bringing on crusades after all this time.

Had they filed a refund request after 6-8 weeks, even 12 all of this wouldn't have happened.
They're wrong complaining now even if they have the right to be upset, that's the truth.
Since one customer allegedly hired a lawyer now and the other one was caught in the middle despite his politeness anything you may or may not do is just annoying and useless.

the entire thread is a series of opinions regarding the situation, your own may be just as annoying and useless in someone else's opinion. An opinion is only that. It is not truth. Needless to say I agree to disagree.

There is also more than the legal recourse as you suggest. The larger question is should the seller be allowed to continue as a forum vendor. It's a question that has been raised and executed upon in the past. Given your own assessment the answer seems obvious ...

So you used a wrong thread title to open this thread just to gather some attention?
"Should XXX still be a vendor?" would be the right title.

You're acting childish and bringing this issue to threads where it doesn't belong.
There's a bad guy thread set up for that already, any other concerns should and could be addressed to the forum's staff and IB itself.

I didn't take someone's money ($1900), not deliver, then give them the cold shoulder. Instead of judging me you should instead reflect upon your own value system.


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Just to point out a few obvious (or maybe not so obvious) things-

The original delays were all explained away. While I am certain you bse50 would have asked for a refund, others who may have wanted to trust the vendor and bought into the line of BS the vendor put out apparently gave the vendor the benefit of the doubt. This is really quite common, especially when your dealing with custom work. Sometimes things take time.

Thefact that the orders were scattered across the country and esp the international orders are the ones who suffered most, because it is much harder to deal with the issue legally when your not local. There is a fellow in Texas who did a similar deal on an intercooler setup, overestimated his base costs and the ability of his suppliers to deliver in a timely manner, spent a lot of peoples money before the components were even in his hands let alone constructed and ready for delivery. He is now almost two years later still delivering on his original promises. The difference is he is delivering- kits, refunds, etc. he is delivering and working things out. This is where this vendor has failed. There has been little to no communication and now the international customers are left hanging in the wind.

Now, lets say that they had asked for a refund (which you presume a lot here by assuming they did not) in the first few months? Do you honestly believe that they would have been refunded a cent? In fact, has anyone been refunded anything? Or discounted a dime for the lack of communication or time delay? The fact is that the customers here had little choice but go along for the ride and hope for the best.

Having been on both sides of the fence in waiting for delivery on a vendors empty promises as well as being lied about and sued by a customer lying through thier teeth, I could sympathize with either party. IMHO the European guys will never see a single part or a single cent from this debacle and hopefully have prepared themselves for this, and I am pretty damned certian Jeff could care less. As far as Jeffs status a vendor, it is beyond me what should happen and is for others to decide.

Internet fraud is a federal crime. If he has truly been defrauded, cannot get his money back, and can prove that he didn't receive the product, then why has he not simply sued by now? I wouldn't have waited 40 months for a product that wasn't coming.

A small claims case costs on average $80, and part of the filling can be to include all court related expenses. Just look up the local court for the vendor, get their operating address, and file.

Now, I'm not saying I approve of people being screwed by a vendor, and I would never do business with someone that doesn't provide what they promise. I'm kind of scratching my head at this point too... why are they still a vendor if they're committing a felony and defrauding people of purchased products.

Short and simple, if someone pays you for a product, you have to produce the product or refund the money without question. Refusal to do either in a timely manner is fraud.


Internet fraud: may be found guilty of a felony and face a fine of up to $250,000 and/or up to 20 years in jail. Often, those charged with computer and/or Internet fraud are also charged with wire fraud, mail fraud, conspiracy, identity theft, or other white collar crimes.

It's not a matter of morals, it's a matter of dealing with a vendor the bad way after the initial delay. A judge doesn't care if he spent the money on hookers, weed, whatever. You judge the parties involved, I take a different approach.

That's not the case. It's not an internet fraud. We're also talking about an international order therefore the prescription time is different and the lex mercatoria applied has some peculiar tracts. Add the proof of delivery to france and you have a nice lost cause to face as a customer. Add the threatening phone call and you have another point in favor of the vendor.

Anyway what i'd like to make clear is that I don't give a damn about this situation, it's just the personal crusade that's spreading to many threads for no apparent reason that is getting annoying.
I'm old enough to know what to do if a vendor doesn't deliver.

That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I have my own and am just as welcome to that one.

Saying go sue someone is easy. Actually pursuing it is another matter.


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This.

There have been plenty of crusades on the forum, including notably harsh participation by said vendor, and I don't recall any objection then.

The show is on the other foot now, and it fits too ...

if I ever were to be in the same position I would expect to be treated exactly the same way.


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That's an interesting way to spell shoe...

This thread needs more arguing and instigators...I'm bored...

qft.

I can only take it so many times; I try to care less, I really do.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-khO8lR9ix..._Care_Less.jpg

^^ I've been waiting for somebody to point that out...lol...That mistake annoys the hell out of me.

what's probably more interesting is why the W key was placed next to the E key, however it has been quite teh drama show too so I'll leave it :)

welcome a-bored :stickpoke

:rofl: @ maskedferret


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apparently the groundhog saw his own shadow ...