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Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
(Post 2796386)
Preliminary exploration into the subject has so far revealed that the metering oil is still controlled by only one load-based and one throttle-based table.
So, any difference between the two pumps will be accomplished by the pumps themselves. Also, why would they go for 2 pumps instead of one? They are downsizing on the injectors...maybe to pay for the extra MOP Cheers Andrew |
OK, so I'm clearly not an expert on rotaries, but in regard to the 2 EMOPs, maybe Mazda have been doing some studying and analysis of the RENESIS over the years and have noticed that the two rotors/housings exhibit some differences in wear or heat issues over time.
By having an individual EMOP for each rotor/housing, maybe they can account for differences between the two (dynamically, precisely tailoring oil flow across all 6 injectors) that may not be possible with one pump? By that I mean, for example, maybe for some particular load/throttle combinations, the rear rotor is being metered, say, 4% more oil than the front rotor. Also, hooray for this thread + sticky! |
Thats what I would have figured, but based on MM's post about this, I would have assumed that in order to meter the pumps independantly you would have 2 seperate tables which they dont.
Also, SII only has 4 injectors ;) Cheers Andrew |
Originally Posted by auzoom
(Post 2797196)
Thats what I would have figured, but based on MM's post about this, I would have assumed that in order to meter the pumps independantly you would have 2 seperate tables which they dont.
Also, SII only has 4 injectors ;) Cheers Andrew |
Has anyone verified that it is actually two physical MOPs?
I haven't. I only know about the PCM end of it. |
You didn't see this from earlier in the thread,,,? Courtesy of Ash8
https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1230955587 |
Erick - I sincerely want to thank you for that excellent technical contribution.
Unfortunately, I was not aware of that particular technical drawing or its presentation here on this forum. I consider this elucidation of the subject to be most welcome and the clarification of the matter is, in my view, absolute in light of this particular bit of added information. |
When he says it like that I don't know whether he's being sincere or sarcastic. It's the exclamation point at the end.
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Originally Posted by Easy_E1
(Post 2797522)
When he says it like that I don't know whether he's being sincere or sarcastic. It's the exclamation point at the end.
Edited. |
Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
(Post 2797519)
Erick - I sincerely want to thank you for that excellent technical contribution.
Unfortunately, I was not aware of that particular technical drawing or its presentation here on this forum. I consider this elucidation of the subject to be most welcome and the clarification of the matter is, in my view, absolute in light of this particular bit of added information. I just about spit my drink all over my keyboard with that comment. Anyway if you need help with anything else Jeff, don't hesitate to ask. :eyetwitch |
Originally Posted by Easy_E1
(Post 2797522)
When he says it like that I don't know whether he's being sincere or sarcastic. It's the exclamation point at the end.
beers :beer: |
Originally Posted by PotatoSoup
(Post 2797227)
Yes, 4 fuel injectors and 6 oil injectors, if that's what you mean.
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According to the above diagram,, the two OMP's appear to share a common union. Seems they both rely on the same oil source.
I find it funny that I can only find 4 outlets for the oil injectors on the pumps. Where are the injection lines for the other two.? I know Mazda loves these vague pics but is there another pic with the injection lines in relation to the pumps? |
Originally Posted by ASH8
(Post 2797563)
Confirmation only attached on page 2 of 3 so far in this thread...
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METERING OIL PUMP RESISTANCE INSPECTION.
1. Disconnect the metering oil pump No1 and No2 connectors (2 terminals). 2. Measure the resistance between terminals A-B using a Tester. * If not within the specification, replace the metering oil pump. Metering Oil Pump No1 and No2 standard resistance. 3.6 - 4.1 OHMS ( Temp 20 oC / 68 oF) Source: 2009 RX-8 WS Manual. I have not checked the Parts Manual, but it appears if the EMOP's are defective you renew the complete unit as there are no serviceable components. |
Originally Posted by Easy_E1
(Post 2797575)
According to the above diagram,, the two OMP's appear to share a common union. Seems they both rely on the same oil source.
I find it funny that I can only find 4 outlets for the oil injectors on the pumps. Where are the injection lines for the other two.? I know Mazda loves these vague pics but is there another pic with the injection lines in relation to the pumps? |
Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
(Post 2797587)
I don't have time to read everything - I count on the concise synopsis of people like Easy!
Takes a bow.. http://www.tabatowski.com/family/memory/tom/bowing.jpg |
Originally Posted by auzoom
(Post 2797591)
Is it possible that the outer injectors share an outlet hose?
I would like to see,, "01-11-14 Hose removal note". |
Originally Posted by Easy_E1
(Post 2797575)
I find it funny that I can only find 4 outlets for the oil injectors on the pumps. Where are the injection lines for the other two.?
They just didn't want to show double banjo fittings on that diagram, so they used a split line to designate two identical connections. Compare this to the left pump. |
Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
(Post 2797608)
If you look very carefully at the right pump on that diagram, it shows two outlets.
They just didn't want to show double banjo fittings on that diagram, so they used a split line to designate two identical connections. Compare this to the left pump. Where would they be with out us? :Eyecrazy: |
Lubrication
1 Attachment(s)
Here is the only other Diagram I can find of the EMOP and the Oil Tubes (as Mazda call them), the rest you have already seen, the manual does not show the Oil Tubes on their own or in a completed series or circuit.
I am sure the Parts Manual would show in more detail. There is a supply hose that goes from one EMOP to the OCV (No. 10) Oil Control Valve, located by the Water Pump/ Front Timing Cover. https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1231047700 |
Originally Posted by Easy_E1
(Post 2797619)
I see now says the blind man. Thanks Jeff. We're doing good here tonight.
Where would they be with out us? :Eyecrazy: |
Originally Posted by ASH8
(Post 2797623)
I am sure the Parts Manual would show in more detail.
Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
(Post 2797624)
I dunno. Take a look at the pile-up in the Pettit threads, I guess.
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Originally Posted by Easy_E1
(Post 2797607)
It should show up as an intermediate connector in the pic,, some where I would think.
I would like to see,, "01-11-14 Hose removal note". As shown on page 2 of this thread...unfortunately there are no other complete pics of the Oil Tubes in the WS Manual. The Hose Removal Clamp/Fitting is related to the hose interconnection of the two EMOP's, sorry I just cant find any more diagrams for you. https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...2&d=1230955587 |
Originally Posted by ASH8
(Post 2797638)
sorry I just cant find any more diagrams for you. |
Originally Posted by ASH8
(Post 2749084)
Yep, now we do have twin oil coolers like the US Models which should include the Auto's I am sure.
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Originally Posted by robrecht
(Post 2797681)
Check the upper right picture in your attachment in Post #82 above. Seems the Autos still only have one oil cooler.
First, this manual I have shown here is the LHD US/Canadian Version. SO Just to confirm this.. Series I in the US 6SP Manual Had 2 oil coolers, your Auto's only had one as did the Australian Manual and Auto versions only having the one. Series II, The Australian Manual (mine) and US have 2 oil coolers, and it appears the Auto's still have only one? in both countries?.. WHY?, Why would Mazda penny pinch on such a critical Item when the largest percentage of US engine failures were the Auto's AFAIK. Have I got that correct Rob?, Great find mate. I really thought both Auto and Manual (Series II) would of had 2 oil coolers, I must check out an Auto when at the dealer this coming week. Having said that we know the Auto does not Rev as high, but it is still a 6 port motor? Thanks Ash |
The sales literature actually has said that the autos have dual oil coolers for some time but they don't, at least not in the US. I haven't personally looked at a 2009. I agree it's pretty stupid of Mazda not to use two coolers on the autos in the warmer climates anyway. I suspect they think it's not necessary with the lower rpms on the auto, but ...
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Ash,
Can I suggest summarising each finding in post #1. Cheers Andrew |
The opening for the oil coolers on the front is larger, but is the opening on the back the same? This is critical as I always thought the front opening was large enough, but the small slits in the back were probably choking the flow a bit. As it is, even the Series 1 oil cooler intakes had plenty more open area than either than cooler itself or the exhaust.
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i love the wheels on the 09's
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2 Attachment(s)
Here is the US AT and Manual oil cooler parts breakdowns for the 2009 models.
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Originally Posted by DMRH
(Post 2793421)
Series-II Engine...
MOP changes - located on top of centre plate to suit additional (3rd) oil metering injector Injectors - Pri2=400cc Sec=525cc Sump - new baffling Knock sensors - 1-per rotor front timing cover - revised design water pump - revised design Oil pump - revised design oil filter - relocated to front lower left corner IGN coils - cant read the Kanji properly Oil filler - Spout & dipstick revised design Series-II chassis drivetrain Front cross member - foam filled as per 07 run out models (40th Ann version) LSD - Revised design Gearbox - Revised design (aka NC MX-5) Gear level - shorter throw Wheel/tyre combo - 18" = 22.7kg - 19" = 21.4kg Steering control arm - link assy raised 7.5mm Underbody - additional paneling - CD reduction to "0.30" Shocks - Type-RS/GT Bilsteins, revised mounting points Visual changes are well known now & easily spotted. REgards |
why did they change the baffling in the sump?
Was there some kind of problem identified? OD great thread by the way! |
so they've decided that with the new oiling they dont need that cooler in the autos.
the whole sump changed |
Originally Posted by zoom44
(Post 2798104)
so they've decided that with the new oiling they dont need that cooler in the autos.
the whole sump changed |
Originally Posted by robrecht
(Post 2798145)
Did any autos ever have 2 coolers???
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Ok--has anyone grafted a 2nd gen oil pan on to our car? Aviation guys have done this?
Sorry for the thread jack! od |
Originally Posted by ASH8
(Post 2797458)
Yes Andrew,
Series II RX-8's have 6 (3 per Rotor Housing) oil injectors...;) And 4 Fuel Injectors..;) It may be possible that one EMOP does the existing two outer oil injectors and the other EMOP does the "Trailing" centre oil injector? Question: Why Mazda increase the oil pressure so much? Because of the better cooling (higher oil flow), or to avoid the part's surface contact? As I remember ( now I don't have time to check the correct data) the pessure is almost 2 Bar higher in the series II. ( xxw-30, 100C, 3000 rpm). |
increased oil pressure?
OD |
Can someone w/access to the WS manual check if any fuel system changes have been implemented? Pump, tank design/shape, filter, plumbing, things like that...
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Originally Posted by Spin9k
(Post 2799522)
Can someone w/access to the WS manual check if any fuel system changes have been implemented? Pump, tank design/shape, filter, plumbing, things like that...
Mazda Parts will tell you if the number has changed, which it has. I can confirm the Fuel tank is 5 litres (about a gallon) larger. From the WS manual all other parts and locations appears the same. The tanks is located in the same position. |
Will there be any benefit to using premix on the '09+ now that there is an injector dedicated to the center of the apex seal?
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Originally Posted by PotatoSoup
(Post 2800200)
Will there be any benefit to using premix on the '09+ now that there is an injector dedicated to the center of the apex seal?
Its very likely that the new scheme actually injects even less oil than the previous version. The thinking being that since the "coverage" is better, the volume need not be as high. (Speculation - I don't have flow rates for the new pumps.) More importantly, the oil distribution is going to be more uniform coming from the fuel source rather than the MOP nozzles. I'd still mix 400:1 or so in the tank and turn up the MOP 5% or so with a reflash. |
Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
(Post 2800214)
I would still use pre-mix no matter what combination of oil nozzles they put in there.
Its very likely that the new scheme actually injects even less oil than the previous version. The thinking being that since the "coverage" is better, the volume need not be as high. (Speculation - I don't have flow rates for the new pumps.) More importantly, the oil distribution is going to be more uniform coming from the fuel source rather than the MOP nozzles. I'd still mix 400:1 or so in the tank and turn up the MOP 5% or so with a reflash. |
i would like to see more comments about this. i asked that question and got a no in another threat. i have a lot of respect for MazdaManiac but would still like a little bit more response. I got my 09 so i wouldnt have to pre mix but will if it needs it.
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Originally Posted by LPCOKIE
(Post 2800275)
i would like to see more comments about this. i asked that question and got a no in another threat. i have a lot of respect for MazdaManiac but would still like a little bit more response. I got my 09 so i wouldnt have to pre mix but will if it needs it.
Can you comment on oil consumption in your '09 versus your previous 8? |
use less premix perhaps?
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i was using 5oz per tank in my 05 with no oil use between changes, every 3000miles. my 09 uses about half a quart every week. i average 450 to 500 miles a week, which is about 75% interstate.
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That is quite a lot of oil. Maybe the centers are injecting quite a bit more than we suspect since there's no center port and so the center injected oil is less likely to escape and damage the cat and this also means it's less of an emissions concern? Either way, unless evidence proves otherwise, I'd still probably assume that Mazda is injecting less oil than optimal for emissions reasons. It's better to be on the safe side; a cat costs a lot less than a new engine.
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