Brettus

iTrader: (2)

You know why that is a bad idea .......... right ?

Harlan

iTrader: (3)

At this point I think the WI system bursting into flames is the least concerning out of the whole idea.

I can't complain too much though, I've started with plans just as crazy and I'm still going. I did however finally start listening to others who had more experience than myself.

Badinfluence, when you start hitting the brick wall on your plans and want actual help/advice let me know, I've already wasted a lot of time and money finding what works and I'd hate to see you do the same.

badinfluence

OK I just spent about 20 minutes writing a nice way of saying what I am about to say. I ******* got logged out and lost the whole ******* thing.

Basically here is the skinny. I am dodging a few of your questions as not to generate an argument. I am not ignoring your advise, however something is clearly off with the math. According to the math I shouldn't have been able to run the 15KW motor off the caps fore more than a second and I clearly did.

I treat it like new science. When Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries came out people had no idea you could not discharge them all past the dead point. They figured it out after they recharged them and they exploded. Same thing with these new kind of caps. The chemistry is different, therefore they may act differently than the formulas are designed for. I would rather spend 90 dollars building a test cap than spend 1000 on the 3k caps and not know what to think of my waste of money.

Something is off, and instead of trying to find it, it is easier to test with what I have and if it isn't precise, it is free and what I have available. Right now I don't have a donor car to test it on, so this is all speculation till it gets bolted up.


I am drawing this up so you can understand it better, (The circuit). That is where I might need some help because I have been around motordrives for years and never seen the configuration I am trying to do.

I am not trying to argue at all, but also know I am not ignoring what you say.

badinfluence

I know everyone on the internet doesn't understand why methanol injection works properly. I am not saying you don't but let me explain something that might help you understand my thinking.

People are using a technology called 5th port/6th port on cars. That is the process of injecting actual gas from the line into the intake manifold for extra fueling. THAT is dangerous, yet I have heard of no one having issues with it. Gasoline engines have a compression ration of around 8:1 optimally and when you add 10-20% ethanol you can achieve 10:1 like our cars.

Now we have all heard of E85. Here is the reason it doesn't work for a fuel. The more ethanol you add, the higher the compression ratio MUST be to burn optimally. The EPA did a study of how to burn e100 and they noted that the more methanol/ethanol you add the higher the compression ratio MUST be. They surpassed diesel levels of compression, but it proved it is possible. Now the problem with that is, the FFVs must also run gas and E85 is NOT regulated. It can be anything from 55% to 85% ethanol, so they engine must "guess" what it needs. If it guess wrong and thinks gasoline is ethanol, BOOM detonation. Therefore they cannot increase the compression ratio of an FFV past a certain point.

All that being known, methanol is a high compression fuel. When you compress it, it loses it's oxygen burning quality while being compressed. Now while it expands post compression, it can ignite. When running at Vacuum on an engine, this is a BAD idea, but when running at forced induction usually you can get away with this. Because I am running my injection pre compressor instead of throttle body I may need to add more water to prevent a fire, but somehow people get away with injecting actual gasoline into the hot intake manifold without blowing up.

Now the thing left unsaid here is that the methanol injection is not really a secondary fuel for what I am trying to use it for. I am trying to cool down the air so the MAF senses it and adds more fuel. I plan on upgrading the secondary injectors to do the bidding of the extra fuel for safety reasons. I plan on injecting very little methanol/water to accomplish this. In metric, less than 150CCs. I plan on starting at 49/51 and trying to work my way to a safe mixture, but also enough to cool the compressed air. The nice part is I can test this off the car and prevent an explosion in my MAF housing. I plan to use a K04 turbo to act like my engine and see where it goes. Worse case scenario I make a jet engine and hit the E stop I will make.


To answer your question: Methanol burns clear and violently. It has a latent fuel content and burns after being compressed. It is a myth that 50/50 methanol water is flammable. When mixed by weight the methanol content can be increased safely. When mixed by volume, you are doing it wrong and it could be out of proportion and dangerous.

Harlan

iTrader: (3)

I tried to explain that to you, but it was ignored. A 15KW motor does not use 15KW all the time.

Methanol injection is ALWAYS a secondary fuel. Water alone does not change timing/fuel requirements methanol does. At that low level of injection pure water is actually better at preventing detonation.

WI is not for cooling down the air so the MAF senses it! Please do not run WI pre MAF it won't work and with methanol it will probably hurt the MAF. You can cool the intake charge AFTER the MAF and make it more dense allowing more air (by mass) to flow into the engine, this will cause the MAF to read higher. Sure it will add more fuel, but that's because it has more air.

You seem to be very confused about what water injection does, and it's easy to get confused with all the misinformation out there. Let me make it simple:

Water injection prevents detonation so that you can run more timing to lower EGTs and get a little more power. This allows you to move the limit for running your engine. It really is like running a much higher octane fuel.

You can run as much compression and as high a boost you want without detonation if you just pull enough timing. Sure your EGTs will be high and lots of power will be lost but you can run there. WI lets you do that with enough timing so you don't melt your exhaust and you actually get the power you want.

Here is a great supply of info:
Not2Fast: NACA Paper List
Wartime report 264 is the most directly related to WI, but they all have great info.

badinfluence

The 15KW motor is 15KW peak, but is still takes a **** ton of energy to spin it up. Motors draw more power when starting than running that is simple. I didn't ignore anything you said. It is a golf cart motor with huge brushes, it takes power to get it to move period. Way more than expected out of a thing that looks like a C cell battery.

I am going to make this simple since the message was missed before. Unless your helping, stop being condescending and explaining how things work I already know about. You completely ignored the part I stated about myself not using it as a secondary fuel, means I would not be removing primary fueling, but increasing it. You missed the whole part about compressing methanol like Freon or nitrous oxide expansion. What methanol injection does or does not do has nothing to do with what I am using it for. A Gas won't hurt a wire sensor, but a liquid would IE compression. I am not trying to trick my ECU or cool my EGTs.

You are not collaborating you are treating me like an idiot. If I have a question I will ask, period.

Harlan

iTrader: (3)

No. Optimal compression is based on the geometry of the combustion chamber and the octane of the fuel. 14:1 is just about ideal, but we can't get there without serious knock control because of octane limitations of fuel. 10+:1 cars existed long before ethanol became an additive but the disappeared for a while when lead was taken out of fuel. This is because of the power loss and high EGTs from running less timing to prevent knock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_ratio
E85 has less energy density, just like propane. You can run a higher compression engine with lean burn (because of the higher octane) to get a more efficient burn, but as you said there is a limit from a bad fuel day. The engine isn't guessing anything, it's running the best timing it can for the fuel it gets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_content_of_biofuelhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
Methanol is not a high compression fuel. It's just a higher octane fuel. Oxygen burning quality while being compressed/expanded? Woah.... don't even know where to begin there. Seems like there is some unhealthy fusion of knowledge going on there.

Sure 50/50 is safe. It is generally considered the safe limit. 25/75 is dangerous and you'll have to mix it yourself.
latent fuel content... I think you mean high octane, but since you made up the term I really don't know what you mean.
If you mix by volume it's actualy safer since methanol is lighter and very hygroscopic.
Oh and it's very toxic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol


Yes and you are not measuring how much power you are actually using. A C cell battery has a lot of energy in it, but internal resistance prevents using it all at once. A capacitor has a lot less energy in it, but it has very little internal resistance. When you get to the point of running fully loaded tests you will see what I mean.

I'm not being condescending, I'm just pointing out facts. You may not like them, but that doesn't make them wrong.

Yes, you are adding fuel in the form of methanol using a non linear somewhat unpredictable controller. It will hurt tuning, but not that much since you are not going to be running that much.

Pure Methanol has a boiling point of +149degF and it goes up as you add water. Freon (depending on which CFC you're revering) and nitrous oxide have boil below zero. So it's not even about compression, it's about evaporation and saturation. Since it won't flash instantly when injected into your intake you will have to worry about a hot wire MAF.


Ok, good luck.

badinfluence

Let me google that for you

Latent means not yet established
Fuel means something that can be burned
50/50 methanol must have the water vaporized to extract the methanol for burning. Just because you can't Google the term does not mean I made it up. Some people use more than the first 5 links of Google to research things.

No matter where you go on the internet someone wants to get their ePenis hard by pretending to help, then turning it into an argument. Do you want to know why the other 5 people developing this idea want nothing to do with the internet forums? Because people like you just tear **** down because you can't do it yourself.

Where is your E100 burning engine? Where is your Electric Supercharger? Where is your 700HP RX8?

Don't bother answering, I am just abandoning sharing my progress because all you are going to do it try and rip it apart because you can't do it yourself.

To anyone else on the thread, I will create a blog and place my results there. As soon as I have it created I will post a link so you can follow without intervention.

Harlan

iTrader: (3)

"Latent fuel content" (in quotes) gives 2 hits on google, and one is this thread. So there is no way I could have gone more than five links in for a concept you invented.

I never turned this into an argument, I've only posted information which you have argued with and I've only done it to try to help. Everyone else is steering clear of this thread because the BS/troll meter is off the charts, which was probably the wiser move.

Good luck with your blog.

ShellDude

iTrader: (12)

I've thought about this long and hard and have decided when I go the electric route it will be 100%.

I think the rx8 body would be perfect for this with plenty of opportunity to get the weight distribution right.

badinfluence

badinfluence

Well one thing I will tell you is that China has made a certain battery a really good deal for something you can switch out in a jiffy.


Check out the 18650 battery. You can get a box of 200 cells at 3.7 volts and 5ah for about 320 bucks shipped. They are light and you can China's version of a AA battery holder to move them around wherever in the car you wish. I am adding them to my design because they are small enough to make a good custom battery pack with. They are Lithium Ion usually so they are light.

(Upgrade the wires on this!!!)

There are a few popular RX8 parts suppliers testing their own version of that BRZ supercharger out. Like another useful post said the in the beginning of the thread, the best benefit is being able to use it at any RPM at any time. That really makes the power worth it.

One thing to look at is using a Supercap as a battery and using a small solar panel to keep it juiced up. You can buy one for about 100 bucks or make one yourself for about 80. If you use 4 of those 18650 cells you can make your self a quick charger for the supercap incase you run it dry. Any jump pack charges those supercaps up in 30 seconds so it is just getting over the fear of not having the battery.

I haven't finished measuring what the car draws by itself, but I think it is around 40amps for WOT, so that leaves about 60 for you to play with if you aren't charging a battery up. (Replaced with a supercap) Out Alternators are PWM so if you don't need that extra 60 amps, it saves you load on your engine, which is awesome.

I used this 350 kit and it works just fine on the RX8. My compression isn't great, but this does just as good if not better than my AGM battery did at starting.

Ultracapacitor Module Battery Eliminator Car Audio Starting Remote Power Solar | eBay

Here is the listing. It is ended, but the seller has a few to sell. Buy it assembled, it is just easier. I could see how it would be easy to short the caps when you are assembling them. (I covered mine with electrical tape when I soldered them and did the middle first.

EDIT: Found one that is is hot
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultracapacit...item2a402791ac

Harlan

iTrader: (3)

The Chinese 18650s are almost all fakes and have much lower than rated capacity.
Even the one of the reviews on amazon states that they are closer to 1ah.

A better idea is to get laptop battery packs and salvage them. The batteries will be better quality and just as cheap.

Watch for regulated vs unregulated Lithium batteries. The cheap ones are mostly unregulated and you will have to make a charging circuit or you will get thermal runaway.


Just trying to prevent someone from reading this thread and burning down their car.

ShellDude

iTrader: (12)

I know all about battery chemistry, charging, pack assembly, etc. Have been into eRC, namely helis for years.

badinfluence

Again you think your part of a conversation you clearly aren't. If you read what I said then you wouldn't be wasting everyone's time posting diarrhea about frying laptops.

Look at what I said again: Check out the 18650 batteries. AS in do research on and look at the size of. I didn't say buy them from Amazon. Everyone one of these batteries no matter what they are in are from China. Buy them cheap and if they don't work right you have 150 more.

thePunkville

Lmao interesting !

badinfluence

Made some neat progress, would like to post it, but Scumbag Steve would just ruin it.


Anyway, I am using a controller wire from the "Power Adder Computer" as I am calling it to the Golf cart controller over serial, so it gets a precise target to hit which would translate to an amount of boost. When it is ready it closes the wastegate (instead of the opposite way Turbos work) and forces the air into the stream. The Map sensor looks for the target boost then starts the actuation of the waste gate if necessary. On this car that will be pretty much a safety feature and never be needed. With spooling the motor slower this saves the initial current draw from going berserk and draining the juice to fast. It does a Soft start then waits for the "boost" command.

I wrote some of the code for the microcontroller, and am kind of stuck till I get the motor controller I want. I found a good source of Caps so that will not be an issue either. Target voltage is 70 to 80 volts on the caps, and 72 to 75 volts for the batteries feeding the caps. I thought about Lipos, but the lifespan on them isn't good for high current draws like this. However in a charging situation they are more than ideal. I may use them for the Pulse power system I am designing to prevent crazy draw from the Alternator.

Right now I am working with the LightBlue Beans I ordered since it is a cheaper project. I will post that in the Off topic section so you can see how cool they are.

Everything on my Power Adder Computer will be Dynamically Tune-able and Wireless with a 10 second max flash time, from ANY of the supported BT 4.0 devices! Android, iOS, Windows 7-8.1, OSX 10.9. I may make a production version if asked about it for other things like Methanol Injection control and boost controlling as a cheap piggyback computer. 30 bucks certainly makes it DIY affordable.

AAaF

These guys look quite serious:
http://www.aeristech.co.uk/userFiles...charger_v2.pdf

Seems like it is using 10kW to produce 80-100g/s at best, so I still think the best would be an electrically assisted turbo. A large turbo, that is electrically assisted in low RPM when exhausgases are too low to get turbine spinning, and also reduce turbo lag significantly. Heat might be a problem for permanent magnets though.

badinfluence

10KW should be producing when most efficient 10HP worth of boost losing 3HP for the Centrifugal type wheel, maybe even more.

I am wondering if this was a press release written by a sales guy because that is a 3 wire setup for the motor and they do make 3 wire DC perm motors, but that seems a bit wasteful not being breathless, especially if it is an Assist type motor.

Based on their design, something has to transfer the energy from the exhaust to the electric compressor, and I am not seeing that device in their sheet. Maybe the exhaust side just isn't shown?

I think the person so wrote that PDF just doesn't really know what they have.

It would be insanely efficient if a car had a turbine generator on the exhaust stream because it would generate lots of force with the latent heat, but getting something to stand up to the components would not be easy. If they introduced water into the exhaust stream pre turbine it would cool the air down and reduce Co2 emissions and expansion of the gases. Also WMI would work, but I doubt we will ever see anything like that. I do think that this is the future (the exhaust gas alternator) because it could combine a turbo and an alternator and therefore control the amount of boost through controlling the alternator windings, as well as remove the drag of the convention alternator and all the shafts, pullies, bearings, and such that go with it completely deleting the serpentine belt. That would also allow them to go with an electric A/C instead of the stupid pully/clutch system they use now.


I saw one of these Edevices on a Toyota design with Subaru too. Not the AE86 remake, but an STI engine. It worked like Audi's assist device where the the electric compressor boosted the inlet of the turbocharger then shutoff immediately after spool. So it was like 10KW for less than a second, but it allowed them to double the size of the Turbocharger so it was a plus for the whole range of the car. Plus it was on the cold side so no issues with heat.


The formula I was told is 3.5HPm (mech) per 5PSI above ambient pressure per liter. so more like 4HPe for electric depending on RPM cycles 5HPe for non geared centrifugal. Spinning a motor at 120,000 RPM just is a bad idea unless you are using a transmission and a brush-less motor with very little drag. With a rotary magnet you could get a pretty efficient transfer with the a good controller. I had a Fisher and Pakel washing machine that had the coolest drive mechanism ever, (rotary brush less, with multiple windings and a controller that fired them at intervals), and that was almost 10 years ago. Since they never touched, that bearing floated on a gyro, so if it went out of balance it would just break the EM field, no damage to the motor or magnets on the bearings.

I am not being a negative Nancy, I just don't think that PDF is correct. That company is in the UK, so I absolutely trust their engineers, (UK is among the best), but the sales guys and the guys putting it together......no so much. (Rover anyone?)


None the less Good find!

AAaF

^I'm not 100% sure what you mean, but the link I posted is a fully electric SC, not what I believe is the most efficient.

The formula "3.5HPm (mech) per 5PSI above ambient pressure per liter", when you say liter, is it liter/sec? One liter is not many grams/pounds, so I must misunderstand something. When it comes to fluids at least, power = pressure * flow * constant(that I dont remember). I would be surprised if its different when it comes to air.

badinfluence

I forgot to post part of the formula, bad day at work Friday.

3.5HP (Mechanical) per 5PSI above ambient, per liter of engine displacement at 6000RPM WOT on an ICE. I was told around 200-250g/s. I got this formula from the Supercharger shop that built my Electric Supercharger

Liter of displacement of the engine. So for the RX8 it would be 3.0 or 2.6 liters.

So for the RX8: 5PSI at 6,000 (ICE) 5,000-7,000 (Rotary) (WOT), it would be 9HP to 12HP required of that electric motor or 7 to 8KW.

Mine is 18KW Peak, and 8K nominal so it should produce 20PSI between 2,000 and 5,000RPM when I will shut it off.



Here is the information about that ESC from UK



There site has contradicting information in many places. They talk about "generators" and then talk about compressors. Then they start talking about Fuel cells to power this supercharger. Really confusing.

AAaF

Why shut it off? Would it not be better to leave compressor at max when you hit the roof at 5-6kRPM? Now pressure will ramp down when engine RPM increase, having less pressure at top, but more manageable in all ways(ECU as well).

AAaF

They think of fuel consumption - we are not

badinfluence

Umm I am confused, by Fuel cell it means the Hydrogen generating kind. The picture shows a generator generating power then channeling it into a battery of some kind.

I am just hella confuse don what they are trying to do with it.

It would make sense to use the exhaust stream to generate electricity and use electricity to transfer the energy to the supercharger because it would not lose any efficiency in cooling like a shaft or oil filled bearing would, but generating power is not as easy as using it. Their model is just confusing.

badinfluence

That is way to much power to have on hand for something like that.

I am augmenting the torque curve of the RX8 by pushing boost at lower RPMS. You don't need much torque at 5K RPM because the car's natural torque curve kicks in there. Plus at 5K RPM you are are on the back straight of your power curve, so the engine doesn't need any help there.


If you ran it full tilt all the time it would be upwards of 20KW required. Granted the motor controller I am using is smart, but damn that is a lot of power storage. I have to work within the power charging possibilities of the Alternator at 1440Watts. I can charge something slowly then use it, but running an alternator past 70% just annihilates it. Plus your taking power from the 30amps required to run the ignition system and other ECU functions.