Just answering the question posed by army_rx8. Besides, if you track, you might just want 'more twitchy handling' as you call it or if you have more power, this gives a way to get it down in the straights, yet maintain some balance in the twisties. With FI coming along, this esp. begins to have more validity.

For this winter in Eastern PA, I put on 245/40/18 Blizzak MZ-03's and have been amazed at the increased handling thru the corners and over the potholes. I am thinking of installing 245/40/18 Eagle F1's on the rear and going with 225/40/18 Eagles on the front . I've read the thread but it hasn't really helped. I like to power out of the turns and mostly run on highway and the occasional twisty backroad. I want to stay with the stock rims and don't plan on adding any kits except maybe a rear stabilizer later on. I've already got the 245's for the back--what should I go with for the front??? ANY opinions will be greatly appreciated!

the more rubber you have the more grip. period. If you can't fit the same size front to rear because of x amount of reasons and have to run staggered (assuming rears are larger) then the front will run out of grip before the rear (since there is less rubber there is less grip) and the rears will "push" the fronts. You still have more grip through a corner with a 245/275 than a 245/245. You need to adjust driving style, or alignment, or both to compensate.

The RX8 can fit a 275/275 on the stock height. change the height and the sizes possible are reduced unless bodywork is done. I had a 245/275 set up because I believed I would be getting coil over suspension (thus lowering the height) sooner than I am. Since I have re-adjusted my schedule for parts, I purchased a 275/275 set up.

get as much grip as possible. more rubber=more grip. 'nuff said

What offfset are your front and rear rims? Also, I take it that these are 18x9 and 18x10?

Thanks,

ntg-r

So, are we disagreeing with the following cars then?

SL55 - 245/285
F360 - 215/275
F430 - 225/285
DB9 - 235/275
Corvette - 235/285
M3 - 225/255

+45 offset
8.5 front
9.5 rear

Car not lowered, if I lowered it there's a good inch of clearance in the back and plenty of room up front.

I guess for autox, with a stock powered car, 275s all around would be good. For my applications (road race with a high power turbo) I prefer a slight amount of understeer at the limit (otherwise the car is pretty neutral until you push it SUPER hard) followed by the ability to control oversteer SLOWLY with more throttle application - that's why I love the rotary bodies - the progression from understeer to neutral to oversteer is nice and slow and predictable - just don't push it past the limits or you'll spin out (at least on my RX-7 . . . haven't spun the RX-8 yet).

Get serious, those cars just support the discussions being made about valid reasons to run staggered wheel/tire sizes!

The SL55, DB9, Corvette, and M3 are all high-horsepower front-engine/RWD layouts (Unlike the RX-8, with only moderate power). The E46 M3, with the least power of that group, also understeers excessively, a problem that the E36 M3 (equipped with same-size tires all around) did not have.

The F360 and F430 are mid-engine with a big rear weight bias (Unlike the RX-8).

Also, note that ALL of the above were delivered from the factory with the suspensions tuned intentionally for staggered wheels/tires (unlike the RX-8).

You're planning to run FI and get big power in your RX-8, then you certainly can justify the trade-offs to install staggered wheels/tires and live with or work around the handling changes. For most people who are NOT planning to bump the power a lot, then the arguments against staggered wheels/tires are still valid and sound.

Regards,
Gordon

You should also add that, a stagered set would be a way of solving a case of terminal oversteer after going too radical on stiffening the rearend.

staggered sizes can be faster.

more tire is more grip. you can adjust the under/oversteer in other ways.

with proper spring rates and bar tuning it would be hard to argue an rx8 with 245 all around is faster than one with 245 front and 275 rear. i would similarly argue one with 275 front and 245 rear will also be faster than 245 all around.

id be happy to prove it as well as argue it, and i think i might be able to prove it even without changing the bars and springs. ive clinched my championship for the season and have two events left here in san francisco region. i would be interested in trying it.

james

You stagger the wheels/tires to fit your needs. If you want to do it because it looks good, do it. If you want to have bigger rear wheels/tires to reduce oversteer/increase understeer, do it. If you want to run wider wheels in the rear with the same rubber at all fours to reduce rear sidewall flex...do it.

The only time your really wrong when running a stagger, is when you don't have a real reason. I like Azenis Sport 205/55/16 with a 7 inch wheels in the front and 8 inch wheels in the rear (on my FC). It suits my driving and what I want the car to do. A lot of people keep talking about the "perfect" wheel setup. Everyone is going to feel different about each setup.

Staggering is a great idea if you spend a lot of time at the track so you can tune the suspension, engine, power band. sway bars, and with some kits down force. Supercars have staggered setups because there chassis are designed with it in mind. It has to go high speed, around 185, so it needs to understeer for stability. You don't want to be fidgety when goin 190 down a straightaway. Look at the ALMS. A lot of cars are staggered because of high speed(stability), down force( example 10lbs at 10 mph goes to 500lbs at 125mph), chassis design( tube frame and rear weight bias) ect. Power is an issue but with proper tuning(LSD, Powerband, Swaybars) stagering is not needed. The simple truth is everyone and every car is different. Only going lap after lap with different setups can anything truly be determined.

I'm getting BBS RG-R 18-8.5 with Yokohama Advan 255/40 18
Stock Potenza's suck, nearly got me killed

It's a simple question with a very complicated answer :bootyshak

About a ALMS

Those cars make a lot of down force. Like F1 they need wide tires and wheels for support and to purposely create understeer. It's safer to just loose front grip and go on the grass then to spin out and hit other cars ala Nascar. Just too add those Nascar cars seem to me to have the same size tires all around. Throw in advanced physics and you see why those cars cost Millions. Don't even get me started about increased wheels size means having to increase Brake force and the increased grip mean greater tire wear and supspension tunning.

wider rear tires + stiffer rear swaybar

the mazdaspeed rims the new ms-01 set i believe come staggered for the rx8 --8 inch width front 9 in rear---


WHY??!! WHY MAZDASPEED?!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

are you sure this is true? do you know the offset?

I am the new owner of an 04 and it has come with brand new nexen n3000's. They are on the original rims but are sized 245/40 -18 on all 4 corners. I will be using the car as a daily driver but will also autox several times a year. Reading your thread, should I go staggered and change the fronts to the oem of 225/45 or leave as is? I don't want to lose performance or safety.

If I may add my opinion; I would keep the same size/offset on all 4 corners because the weight distribution on the RX-8 is darn close to 50/50. With equal grip potential on all 4 corners, the handling will feel more balanced. I have the Racing Beat sways and springs on my car along with Nitto NT555's in 245/40 on the factory 18's and in hard cornering the car no longer understeers. All 4 wheels will slide equally and I can use the throttle to rotate the car pretty wasily.

CRH

i thought staggered set up was a way to counter oversteer?

Yes - like elchivo said above, "Like F1 they need wide tires and wheels for support and to purposely create understeer."

Creating understeer is a way to counter oversteer.

I concur with Charles that going balanced is probably the best strategy --particularly for autocross applications but also for daily driving. It has been my experience that the RX8 in stock form likes to understeer. Going staggered would only make the problem worse.

Staggered may be good for high-torque engine situations specifically in straight lines or in sweeping turns where rear grip and speed is more critical than balance. But in autocross or any other tight-turn application, balance is the quickest way through. It also provides the best "in the twisties" experience.

I resolved my understeer "problem" by going with 245 sized tires all around, increasing the front camber to -2.0 and reducing the rear camber to -1.6 (amongst other things).

Now when I throw it around turns (go a little too fast), I get a nice balanced 4-wheel slide. That is - neither the front nor the rear slides out further than the other - they move together. To me, that's exactly where it needs to be. I simply let off the throttle a bit to let the rear take hold, the front settles nicely and it turns like its on rails without pushing (understeer) or having to countersteer any oversteer.

I plan to eventually go to 9.5" wheels all around so I can run 275s. That will give me more lateral grip for the ability to go through turns even faster without altering the balance.

Just my experience - results (and opinions) may (and will) vary.

Once again this test was on a 350z....which is a completely different car all together and doesnt have the same weight ratio at all as our RX8. Think about what you drive mostly in your RWD RX8. Straight line. Staggered is a great think for our cars and MOST all rear wheel drive cars. I have actually noticed a better gas mileage per gallon in my Solstice since I went staggered.

As stated above as well. All cars are different and some actually benefit from staggered tires/wheels and some dont.

I've got 245/40s at all 4 corners right now, but since I got my turbo sorted out I have problems staying hooked up out of the hole & for the 1/2 shift (big problem) & 2/3 shift (only a problem if I'm cornering).

I really like the feel/balance of the car just the way it is, but I am starting to lean towards staggered to give me better traction & hopefully retune the suspension to retain the balance.

For N/A, I wouldn't even dream of staggered.

Or #3..it fits your style of driving.

Its a no brainer that it changes over/understeer, but if your race class allows it, it can change how competative you are.

I -prefer- an understeering car when racing, as I prefer to rotate early and be on the go juice sooner.

The '8 is not a HP racecar, its a wonderful momentum car.

Amen.

And if you dont race..you hvae no solid opinion..and even if you do, your opinion on thi matter only fits how YOU drive YOUR car.

I remember my old FD3, when I started racing it after racing 1st gen RX7s for years, I couldnt get it to work how I wanted, then I slapped 17x10s on the rear just to have some fun and left the fronts alone. Dropped 4sec a lap within 5 laps.

This was way back on the short construction based configuration at Sears Point a few years ago where momentum and dartiness was more important that overall balance.

At Thunderhill, it was almost a wash, I was faster in some sections than others, and slower in some with either wheel combination.

BTW...Enkie RPF1's

18 x 9.5 at 45mm offset and Falkin RT615 - 275/35/18's will work on a moderately dropped Rx-8

Good Win Racing has this setup on there Rx8

Link to Rims (17.4 lbs!!!!!)
- Enkie RPF1 - 18x9.5

Link to Forum for specifics on dropped Rx-8
- Dropped 8

Note: Will allow the wider but shorter 285/30/18s at all four corners.

true, yup. i have buddies that drift and where drifting before it was a house hold name. they used to stager but in revervse so that they can kick the back out easier. like fronts wider then the back. all equal is best for track and daily.

dont you think running 275 all around is kind of too much?

Too much only depends on the person driving I guess. We know from the experience of forum members that the 275's will fit on a lowered car. Even 285's with a lower side wall...30...will fit.

Since I am looking to max grip for autocross it makes perfect sence.

Blasphemy :spank:

Sure, if you are partial to skinny little wussy tires.:mdrmed:

In response to the original post:

Staggered wheels DO help on certain cars. For instance, the FC RX-7. 225's on the front and 255's on the back is a tried and true setup for road race /' autocross.

It just depends on the car. Staggering the tire size can completely change the handling characteristics of the car. (For the better or for the worse, depending...)

iSP33D-for-J3SUS

the previous owner of my car put 245/40s on the rear and 225/45s on the front (stock rims).

The car understeers like a sunnufabitch when I autocross.

I'm definitely gonna match the sizes up when I get new tires.

Would it have mattered at all what the rim sizes were for those differences in tire size? (ie. if you put different size tires front and back on the same rim size all around) opposed to having a wider rim for wider tires on the back. Anyone knows if this makes any difference in handling at all? sorry if this has already been answered.

wait you have bigger tired on the front?!?! Picts please. That just sounds so weird. And would probably look bad too.

hey guys i am running 245/4018 on the stock mazda wheels with some sticky dunlop tires and it feels alot more stable than stock......

Sometimes it's a matter of personal choice.
 

I don't run my car on the track so staggered wheels work fine for me. It's not my daily driver and I'm slowly building it up for show purposes. It's all about personal aesthetics. I like the look. Peace!

staggered...
 

I AGREE!! THAT LOOK IS MEAN!!! :naughty:

i just leaned a new way to spell tyte and i couldnt agree more. you would think someone with a name like mr wiggles would have a great sense of humor.
sincerly,
back stagger

I think we appreciate the post you made, but your facts are wrong. The article specifically was talking about the 350Z, except for the "ludicrous" comment, which is a matter of opinion.

The article, although clearly biased, is correct. The 350Z does push through turns with wider rear tires. The setup they used, with even width tires, works best in the case of the 350Z.

I can't speak for the RX8 because I don't know all the facts in regards to the effect that wider rear tires have, but I know for a fact that older BMW's (E30 - E36) and Honda S2000's benefit from wider rear tires. With natural understeer tendencies, the wider tires do help even the car out better in turns, and overall give better grip from dead stop RWD acceleration.

Clearly, if you are running 18x7.5's in the front and 18x14's in the rear, there will be some major effects. Good or bad depends on the geometries of the car, the driver, and the suspension. Remember, we're not talking about taste here... or are we?

Unless a company gets 10 different RWD cars together to compare the results, I just can't jump on board with this statement. Even further, don't believe everything you read on the internet. Even if it's in a magazine... it's still usually someone's opinion.

Hey RX8Urz, do you have pics of your tires? I'm thinking about putting 245's on the rear as well, mainly cuz I want the tires to be flush with the edge of the fender. I think the stock rims look pretty good except they don't stick out far enough. Do 245 tires on the stock rims push the tires to the edge?

ya i can do that for you. andthis setup is really good it doesn't have that tendency to understeer like before with the 225. plus i think it looks better with some nice wide meats on the stock rims....I will post the pics asap....:Eyecrazy:

big in the front
 

i understand that you should have the same size tires in the front as you do in the back, but i heard that if you go to big in the front you lose your turning. Is that true. i would like to go around 255 or 265 in the back on my rx8. now should i put 255 or 265 in the front?

my 2 cents
 

I've been reading through this thread, and found this one as the best to bounce off in lending credit to a staggered setup. Key factors on how to compensate for the increased understeer due to wider tires on the rear would be.


1. - Change in approach to turn-in setting up for the apex of the exit.


2. - Suspension (Change in bound,rebound can also compensate to increase oversteer or understeer).


If no changes are made, basic compensation would be using the brake drifting technique, often used on Front wheel Front drive (FF) cars. weight shift is transferred to the front, requiring late braking into the entrance, and balance the brake until the rear tires start to initiate a loose 'floating feeling', at this point the gas can be applied and modulated to balance the weight transfer thats completely loaded on the front tires to the outer tires during the exit pass through of the apex point of a turn.



So in short, change in driving habit would need to be done vs having a non-staggered setup, or going to staggered if your the glass 1/2 full or empty person :bluesuit: same can be said of some artists.... :)

For drifting, staggered with wider tires in the rear is common, since more traction is needed to maintain speed through the turn, granted you can never exceed the speed of a 4wheel drift if your front tires cannot maintain traction, but since your spinning your rear wheels with the last ditch effort to maintain control, a combination of tires,rim,suspension, brakes, alignment and power to the wheels are useless if your timing for the entrance of the turn is to fast.... notice i placed the factor order from the contact patch as the 1st. :) this is always the deciding factor on how your car will handle.... unless your lightning mcqueen, then i hope your car has a long tungue to make the race at least a tie (Cars movie plug) :banghead: i have a 3 year old boy.


Anyhoo. i think this is my 1st post? sweet! no more forum lurking for me!:puke:


Have a good weekend... Washington has 5 days of clear sunny days... Touge time!

forgot to include, reverse stagger is typical in FF cars to have wider up front, (ie: 225/195rear)

hey thanks for the info. i figured it all depends. im with you whitebeau, touge yah. changing my driving style isn't that big of an issue. i figured it would help in my driving. ill just know my car even better. thanks

well i found some super advans i want for track

17x8 front

17x9 rear

i've come to read that going staggered is not good for track because of understeer. but i have dreamed of these wheels since day one.

food for thought: 245/50/17 for front and 245/50/17 for rear.

same tire width, assuming 245s fit good on 8in width.

how about that? just curious because i found some advans.

Staggered
 

Cody Red -

Will those clear your Brakes?

Midust well go 245x40 front & 275x35 rear in my opinion... you can always offset the increased understeer (Note this is in my Concept, corrections appreciated).


1. Stiffer/thicker rear anti roll bar, and increase rebound on front suspension, and keep the rear softer.


My theory is this will increase initial turn in response, but the softer rear suspension will be slower to pitch then the front end, stiffer rear anti rollbar to keep the rear suspension more predictable and elminate flex...

Once again driving style is going to differ from person to person... some may like a stiffer ride, but can absorb the harder hits. it's a funky play with tire,spring,shock combo. Getting an anti-rollbar you'll want later down the road if you really push your car all the time so the flex in the frame can be minimized, allowing the suspension to be more predictable....


Did I just counter my first paragraph with the 2nd? :spank: must be late,

In short, if you WANT the staggered ride, it will change the way your car currently handles when coming into a turn... meaning you will be required to brake a little more to compensate for the understeer to increase traction to the front tires...


Suspension is key to compensate for the natural attitude of increased traction on the rear tires, otherwise change in driving style is needed.


This I believe is one of the main reasons I believe Mazda has been dominating the circuit this year in their '6', they're able adjust the suspension so the driver doesn't have to change their driving style to the point that they have to compensate entry method for every turn, which allows them to focus on exiting through the turn with confidence as each turn can be approached with consistency.
This also leads up to tire wear/heat and brakes also facing increase use, as with understeer you will have to brake harder if you plan to brake later...


If you don't have adjustable shocks for bound & rebound. the end question is will you be willing to adjust your driving style for the change in handling :) ....


Cosmetically, your going to get some funky wheel lip with 17x9's in the rear :)



Sorry if this doesn't help much. It really breaks down to being prepared for change in handling.... if you drift your car, this can be a boon if you find yourself getting off the gas and needing more countersteer to maintain the drift... increased rear traction will allow faster speeds vs going 245's all around if you haven't made a suspension upgrade.


I know this has been covered on other sites, we might need a sticky for Suspension breakdown... but then again having an auto-x or trackday will also do the same thing, I get the impression not everybody wants to drift their car... but gauging somebody as a show, daily, spirited, aggressive, auto-x, club racer (Races on weekends), and drift driver... is probably why i'm over analyzing these questions.


Show, Daily - Stagger setup I don't think is going to conflict with your day to day driving.

Spirited, Aggressive - Stagger will either be more annoying or a boon depending on how you come into the turns, or if you have a tendency to over steer/drift... the later stagger setup will help more... hence driving style will be key on this (Mike categorized driver).

Auto-x, weekend warrior (Club Racer) - Staggered will be dependent on the course, this is moot for these people as they should have an extra set of tires/wheels anyway "U hoosier people know who you are" :) . These drivers will have also changed their suspension to accommodate there driving style (Adjustable shocks: the uber ones would like to tweak not just the rebound but also the bound settings), along with adjustments needed for the course. Balance in Spring rate to shock application is important, which is why getting coilovers is the easiest method. Suspension Manufacturer has already tested with varied spring/shock setups.... The coilover feature is more for application adjustment, since shock travel is typically not impeded because this can be offset with bound/rebound settings if you decide to lower or raise the ride heighth...

Drifters - this pretty much encompasses what I consider a spirited driver and up, as one gets more familiar with the cars limits as a spirited driver, the disease will encroach the rest of the persons soul, finding ways to increase past their cars limits, in turn growing as a driver themselves to overcome ones comfort zone (recommend always on a closed course)... finding lack of better suspension, tires can always be compensated through a drift..... as in WRC, a 4 wheel drift is the last ditch effort on regaining control of your car... induced drifts (Meaning intentional) implies increased confidence in ones ability to control there car regardless of road conditions or obstacles in the path ahead...


.... I say get them if they clear your brakes :grouphug:

^^too big of a passage to quote, but i am running the racing beat sway bars + end links.

brake clearance is one thing i am truly afraid of. i wouldn't mind the advans for daily use and just use the stock wheels for track but it's because of the track i want 17's

it's a bit of a sticky situation for me right now, and I hate it because it's such a damn good deal on these super advans.

hey someone help....LOL. I'm ordering some 19x8.5 +22mm offset for my fronts and for the rear 19x10 +22mm offset. How will the fitment be? Will it be even with my fenders?

Total crap, bro. That offset is for a 350z and G35. Wheels will stick out beyond the fenders making it look like a f**king truck.

http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/imag...tona_20082.jpg

Hmmm, judging by the apparent tire size and fender flares I'm going to guess that is a staggered set-up.

A lot of factors come into play, but you can't say one way or another that staggered or non-staggered is a good thing all the time.

-Mr. Wigggles

Ps. I still like my staggered set-up

To add fuel to the fire... Mr. Wiggles is correct. Here are the specs from the speedsource website:

2008 Mazda RX-8 specs.
Engine 20B Three rotor rotary engine (1,950cc)
Max Power 425HP @ 8500RPM <--- This may have something to do with why they went staggered :lol: Not exactly stock ;)
Max Torque 285 ft-lbs. @ 7600
Max RPM 8800
Dry Sump Lubrication
Bosch 4.3 ECU
Gearbox Emco Daytona Prototype
Six forward gears and one reverse
Ring and Pinion 10/35
Bodywork All carbon fiber
73.5 inch width
174 inch length
Suspension Dymanic Suspension DSSV shocks
Front and Rear adjustable anti-roll bars
18x11 Racing Hart wheel front with 285/645-18 Pirelli Racing tire
18x11.5 Racing Hart wheel rear with 305/660-18 Pirelli Racing tire
Brakes Dual master cylinders with balance bar
Four piston Alcon front and rear calipers
Cast iron vented Alcon rotors front and rear
Pagid racing brake pads

BTW... What a friggin ride that must be!!! I want a 3 rotor :ylsuper:

Those silly Speedsource guys! Staggered FTW!!