One More Hard Start Problem: With Video
 

Hey All,

Sorry to start another one of these threads, but I've reached the limits of troubleshooting on my own, and just wanted to get some input before making an appointment with the dealer. Basically, the car starts like shit in the morning after sitting overnight in cool weather, or after attempting to start it shortly after driving. Here's the vid I took with my phone this morning...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38Dpy9A7IDU

At least in my opinion, the starter certainly seems slow. Outside temp was 56 with an overnight low of 47. I started having some warm/hard start issues over the summer where the car wouldn't start very well without being allowed to cool down. Here's the history...

-2004 GT MT 64,000 miles - all recalls to date performed

-Purchased from dealer in September of 2009 with 54,000 miles knowing a reman had been installed at 48k

-CAT failed and replaced by dealer around 57k

-Front O2 sensor replaced and vacuum leak diagnosed/fixed by dealer around 59k

-I replaced coils/plugs/wires after the CAT and O2 sensor died

-Redlined often (duh) with oil changes every 3,000 miles

-Car was running great until a couple of months ago when my starting issues began. I had the BHR kit on order at this time and installed the kit along with a new battery with great results. The BHR kit was a noticeable improvement over the brand new OEM coils I installed only a couple months before, and my starting issues subsided...at least for a while.

Now, the starting issues are back and worse than before. I was hoping for a slow starter and was almost sold on that idea after checking/rechecking all my connections, pulling the plugs, resetting KRAM/NVRAM, etc. However, the car has now picked up a rough idle, especially with the AC on. Today, for the first time, it dipped down to about 500 RPMs while I was at a light, shuddered pretty bad for a couple of seconds, and then rebounded. Despite the starting issues, the car seems to run great - no loss of power at any RPM range, no misfires, CELs, etc. Could the hard starts and newly developed rough idle be related to each other in anyone's experience, or is it merely coincidental that I might have developed a failing starter and possibly bad motor mount(s) within such a short time? Obviously, I'm putting the OEM coils back in and having it checked out as soon as I can, and will probably ask for a compression test as well.

Check your VIN number to see if you have the old version starter. Mine was doing exactly that with my old starter.

Your starter is really really slow but your description suggests a degenerative condition.
Hard to believe a compression issue so how about grounding? Check the ground points under the airbox / battery tray

Is the VIN at or below JM1FE173*** ** 150745 ?????

OP, for what it's worth, when I thought my new starter had suddenly fried (battery grounding issue) and went back to my old starter that was acknowledged as failing, it had almost that exact same cranking time/style/method/etc... Near perfect copy. Your starter is certainly failing, and it takes time to build up momentum to get fast enough RPM to start the ignition.


The rough idle is probably something different, but it's possible the rough idle is from the excess fuel from taking so long to start, and getting excess carbon and/or fouling the plugs.

Mazmart is your best bet for the starter replacement without overpaying.

After resetting the KRAM/VRAM, the computer has to relearn your fuel trims and what not so it may take a few driving cycles to flatten out again.

They are right check those things that should fix it. Clean your "MAF" sensor for good measure it takes five mins and might help idle..

Thanks for the replies so far, everyone.

To be a little more clear, I reset the KRAM/NVRAM and cleaned the MAF when I first installed the BHR kit and battery, over two months ago. The MAF didn't even look dirty. I repeated all three steps last week while troubleshooting and have always followed the recommended drive cycle for resetting fuel trims. My fuel trims have always reset themselves just fine within a day or single prolonged cycle, so surely they'd have mapped by now. The rough idle seems to be a worsening condition.

VIN is JM1FE173*** ** 109447 and the starter/battery recall was already performed and documented before I took ownership of the car. I wouldn't rule out the replacement starter as being a point of failure, but if so, I can't speak well of it's build quality.

When I pulled the plugs last week, they looked healthy and the gap checked out. A little light-brown residue, but nothing at all out of the ordinary for a healthy plug. I also swapped locations for both the leading and trailing sides without noticeable results. I need to get my factory coils back in before taking it to the dealer because I'm covered by a 3 year comprehensive warranty with a deductible. That will probably have to wait until this weekend because my car is being kept outside at the moment while our garage houses materials for a home reno project, making the coil swap/grounding check dependent upon daylight that is quickly fading by the time I get home from work. Now I'm getting more and more concerned about compression loss by the day...

Good call on using the comprehensive warranty that you have. Handy in times like this.

To me, I still would point at your starter. Compression, low or otherwise, does not affect the cranking speed of your engine. Just may take a bit for it to finally fire. Your video clearly sounds like it is having to build up momentum to get the engine cranking speed up.

I am not saying you have a failing compression. You might, and it's just inflating the problem, but I'm still betting your starter is failing. Even an "upgrade" can fail. They fail in piston cars too.

Thanks again. Starting to feel better about the starter being the primary culprit. I'm just trying to get as much documentation as I can before bringing it in. I'm shooting vids each time I start the car for proof in an effort to avoid the whole "cannot duplicate" run-around. For instance, the car started fine this morning after sitting outside overnight in the same conditions, so the problem is somewhat intermittent. Sometimes it fires right up, and then sometimes it struggles. I know as soon as I take it to the dealer, the problem will magically fail to manifest itself, which is how that usually seems to work...

Going to work on getting the OEM coils back in and hope the BHR coils aren't one of the only things keeping the car alive. Will update when I know more.

Mine too would start sometimes and other times take about 5 to 10 minutes of cranking for10 seconds and sitting there in a parking lot cussing and off and on cranking.

I believe they can run a preliminary test on the starter to see if its bad.

Man, this just keeps getting better. I just had to roll down to my fiance's office because her car wouldn't start. It would turn over, misfire badly, and then stall itself out. I finally got it running after a few tries and she made her way home okay. It's a 98 Mercury Sable that was given to me by my father several years ago. It was a company car he won in a raffle for a $20 ticket. He didn't need it, so he just gave it to me for a beater. I wound up transferring it to my fiance after her Miata died. Now this, I can pretty much chalk up to bad plugs (hopefully).

Would you believe changing the plugs in a 98 Sable DOHC Duratec is a 5 hour job according to the labor book? You have to remove the entire upper intake, valve covers, throttle assembly, along with a crapload of other things because the rear plugs, coils, and wire harness are jammed right up against the firewall and are inaccessible from behind or below. Called a mechanic buddy of mine that works for Toyota and he said it would probably be about a 500 dollar job. Coincidentally, it seems this engine is actually based on the Mazda AJ platform.

I'm gonna have an awesome weekend.

I just found out myself that I have the old starter. Is there anyway to get it replaced by the dealer without me paying? Was/is it a recall? These are the listed recall's that my 04 6sp MT has done. (I just bought the car about a month ago mind you.)

1604B PASSENGER'S FRONT AIRBAG 03-05-2004 CLOSED 03-05-2004
1704B DYMANIC DAMPER 03-05-2004 CLOSED 03-05-2004
3305G RX-8 FUEL TANK ISSUE 08-30-2005 CLOSED 12-10-2005
3405G RX-8 LOWER ARM BALL 08-30-2005 CLOSED 12-10-2005
4206F VOLUNTARY EMISSION 08-31-2006 CLOSED 12-01-2006

It doesnt say recall on the TSB. I had to fork out around $425 at the dealership for parts and labor. I am sure there is a cheaper route but they were conveniently located

fu*k fu*k fu*k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGkyWy-PMxE

Yours sounds like it has the same cranking speed the entire time Brettus. Either loss of compression or ignition isn't firing, fuel isn't pumping, etc... Slows down a bit near the end, probably from battery drain.

Will not start off the starter at all now but jumps straight into life from a jump start and runs well once started .

Does the starter sound particulary slow ? I'm hoping the upgraded starter will fix it but it's $700 retail here :(

The engine starts fine without the starter drawing current.
The starter runs pretty well but the engine won't fire.
I'm discounting what sounds like a somewhat run down battery...

How many attempts to start when the video was shot? How old is the battery?

I'd guess bad power or ground connection somewhere or internal resistance in the battery.

Battery is a yr old . It seems to be ok but that video was taken after several attempts so was starting to lose power .
The bad connection is a good call as the positive connection was loose and start voltage was being affected by that . Managed to get that sorted and went for a drive to charge up the battery . But it still would not start when I got back so maybe other connections are suspect as well .

I'm still on the old starter and would be interested to know if the speed sounds about right for an old starter ?

The cranking sounds pretty good to me! but I have an 04 :lol:
Check the big grounds under the air box / battery box on the cross rail.

ok all power and earth connections check out ok .
I have spark and fuel . Compression may be down a bit but getting good even pulses with the plugs out so not a blown apex .
So either the starter or the battery grrrr

Hmmm - maybe I don't have spark .
Holding the two leading plugs onto the engine mount while cranking and not getting any spark at all . It's weird because I did get spark earlier but it seemed to come and go - sometimes yes sometimes no .

Dirty e-shaft sensor?