Diagnosing a clogged cat or fuel starvation
Edited to Add: Problem is the fuel pump. It tests fine when just started but over time the presure drops to the 40s and sometimes as low as 10 psi. Free beers to logalinipoo (no lean code) and Tonik (fuel pump) and to everyone else for their help!
Dealer says my cat is fine because their diagnostic test of the "Rear to front switch ratio" on the two O2 sensors is only 0.152 and the maximum allowed is 7.999. That seems to indicate that the cat is doing its job in cleaning up the exhaust. Is it still possible that the cat is clogged? When I drive it relatively hard, I can see the rear O2 sensor glowing red even in the afternoon in the garage. Is that normal? Tonight I'll drive it hard at night and see if the whole cat is glowing. Dealer also said the fuel pump tested fine last year, but I'm also thinking that maybe it could be failing when overheating or maybe fuel filter is clogged. Dealer says that if there were a fuel pump or fuel filter issue, I would get a lean code, but I do not. I've also read that my wiring harness could be bad, that the SSV could be sticking and that the ESS could be dirty. I am no mechanic but I want to be able to follow along with the dealer's efforts to diagnose and fix this. I have cleaned the MAF sensor, replaced the air filter, and reset the NVRAM, pulled the room fuse, etc. Background: '06 MT with 81k miles, engine replaced at 40k miles, cat replaced at 50k miles, and third engine put in last week. Replaced coils, wires and plugs last year and again last week with 'new' engine. New catback put on this week. Sounds nice. Here's the problem as I experience it: On long Interstate drives, after a few hours of driving, summer but not real hot, engine was running a little rough at first and then progressively rougher and then would miss on hard acceleration, got progressively worse, until it would miss with mild acceleration. When I could not even maintain 30 mph, pulled over. After shutting the car off for only 5-10 minutes, and restarting, it will run OK. I didn't push it, but able to maintain highway speeds without any noticeable issues. No OBD codes. More recently, I notice loss of power (missing or fuel starvation) above 7 or 8k even after short drives of 20-30 minutes, with full gas tank. |
It takes a jack( jack stand too preferably) or some way to safely keep the car from falling). 14mm wrench 15 mm wrench and about half an hour to drop the front of the cat(3 Bolts) and look inside. It will look like a nice honey comb or piece of screen with fine square holes. It it's clogged up then it is bad.
Some wd-40 or pb blaster will help a bunch. |
Originally Posted by logalinipoo
(Post 4619238)
It takes a jack( jack stand too preferably) or some way to safely keep the car from falling). 14mm wrench 15 mm wrench and about half an hour to drop the front of the cat(3 Bolts) and look inside. It will look like a nice honey comb or piece of screen with fine square holes. It it's clogged up then it is bad.
Some wd-40 or pb blaster will help a bunch. |
The dealer did not look at it. They checked the computer which did not show it is bad. You are asking how to diagnose it or fuel pump. the easiest way is to look at it. You've probably spent more time waiting for me to reply then it would take you to go inspect it and know if you are safe to drive.
If the honeycomb has fallen apart then it is basically gutted and not really a problem. It will become melted and clogged if it is bad. If you see a nice perfect honeycomb structure then it is not bad. You will kill your engine driving with a bad cat. |
Originally Posted by logalinipoo
(Post 4619240)
The dealer did not look at it. They checked the computer which did not show it is bad. You are asking how to diagnose it or fuel pump. the easiest way is to look at it. You've probably spent more time waiting for me to reply then it would take you to go inspect it and know if you are safe to drive.
If the honeycomb has fallen apart then it is basically gutted and not really a problem. It will become melted and clogged if it is bad. If you see a nice perfect honeycomb structure then it is not bad. You will kill your engine driving with a bad cat. If fuel filter or fuel pump is causing a fuel starvation issue at high rpms, would I necessarily be getting a lean code? Is the service adviser right about that? |
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You may or may not get a lean code. I don't know what specs throw that code. I know I've run my car lean on the high end and never got a code. But that was while tuning new injectors.
It does sound like your cat is probably good, id still look for myself. Sometimes that rattle in the muffler is from a broken honeycomb that has moved back. Here is my cat that clogged then broke apart. |
Originally Posted by logalinipoo
(Post 4619248)
You may or may not get a lean code. I don't know what specs throw that code. I know I've run my car lean on the high end and never got a code. But that was while tuning new injectors.
It does sound like your cat is probably good, id still look for myself. Sometimes that rattle in the muffler is from a broken honeycomb that has moved back. Here is my cat that clogged then broke apart. So did you run it lean enough to experience fuel starvation, loss of power, and still did not get a code? |
It's the fuel pump..i don't get any cel code when mine was acting up.
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Yes afr 17 and i could drive fine. But no flooring it. Id starve it about 6500 rpm.
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Originally Posted by tonik
(Post 4619252)
It's the fuel pump..i don't get any cel code when mine was acting up.
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Originally Posted by logalinipoo
(Post 4619254)
Yes afr 17 and i could drive fine. But no flooring it. Id starve it about 6500 rpm.
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After driving on the Interstate for an hour and a half to the dealer, I was able to get a P0300 misfire code when I attempted to redline it in neutral. When it cuts out early at high rpms several times in a row, that's when I got the code. Did it again today (again in neutral) after driving it hard. When I drive it in gear, I can get the power loss at high revs but no codes. So far, only got a code twice, both times in neutral under these rare circumstances.
Another thing I tried today. If I floor it, I will get the power loss at high revs, when driving. If I slowly increase revs while driving it will make it to the normal 9.5k rpm redline on the tachometer. I was thinking that might be more of a fuel pump issue, ie, not able to supply enough fuel fast enough when flooring it, but can supply enough fuel when increasing revs more slowly. But maybe not. I suppose that air through the cat & catback might be subject to the same lack of linearity. Am thinking about the best way to try and log AFRs vs rpms using my OBD2 sensor and smartphone and whether that might tell me anything definitive or at least suggestive. |
Change coils and plugs. A missfire will cause AFRs to read high and all that unburnt fuel will cause your cat to glow red (because that's where it's burning).
Treat it soon or you will need a new CAT, and as stated above that can cause you to loose an engine. |
Originally Posted by Harlan
(Post 4619274)
Change coils and plugs.
Originally Posted by Harlan
(Post 4619274)
A missfire will cause AFRs to read high and all that unburnt fuel will cause your cat to glow red (because that's where it's burning).
Originally Posted by Harlan
(Post 4619274)
Treat it soon or you will need a new CAT, and as stated above that can cause you to loose an engine.
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Spirited driving will cause a really good cat to glow also.
Also if you are leaning out for some reason it could cause a misfire. Or too rich but you'd have to be pouring out fuel to be that rich i think. |
Hmm.... don't know what to tell you. Without more info it will be difficult to diagnose, because everything comes down to those misfires. Could be an e-shaft sensor issue, I have caused that to happen before and it did cause misfires at high rpm.
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Originally Posted by Harlan
(Post 4619295)
Hmm.... don't know what to tell you. Without more info it will be difficult to diagnose, because everything comes down to those misfires.
Originally Posted by Harlan
(Post 4619295)
Could be an e-shaft sensor issue, I have caused that to happen before and it did cause misfires at high rpm.
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I'd log RPM, AFR, MAF, EGT, LTFT, STFT, AFR commanded, and AFR.
If it is the e-shaft then it's not going to be obvious. The ECU does not give a e-shaft code unless it's really bad, it just causes misfires at high rpm and possibly a rough idle. Mine was from a noisy test lead I attached, and I only found the cause because when I disconnected it stopped. I don't know what to tell you about hot vs cold missfires. Could point to it being the fuel pump, but if that was the case then full vs empty tank would cause the symptoms to change/disappear. |
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I doubt this will tell you much. I managed to log AFR measured briefly today during a high rpm misfire.
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Jack it up and clean the e-shaft sensor. The sudden spike is probably from misfires, and from everything you've said it does not appear to be load related, so we are only left with some sort of ignition issue. If the coils/plugs and wires are good then there are very few possible parts left that could cause this kind of trouble.
At least pull the plugs and look at them. There may be some clue there. |
This is random but record voltage. Maybe its doing something crazy. Have your battery checked too.
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Cleaned the e-shaft sensor. No fix. Narrowing it down.
So I'm thinking of plotting AFR (commanded) vs AFR (measured). If the AFR measured is lower than commanded when it misfires, would that be an indication that the exhaust is clogged somewhere, ie, cat? Likewise if I I see my fuel pressure or fuel flow rate cut out when it misfires, maybe that would indicated a fuel pump problem. Sound like a plan? |
Did you do the 20 brake stomp
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Clogged cat would show normal AFR driving around but higher than normal EGT. Also when they cause the engine to stall they start puffing out the tailpipe. We have no fuel pressure or flow sensors so not much information you can get from there. I'll try to think of anything else.
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Originally Posted by logalinipoo
(Post 4619444)
Did you do the 20 brake stomp
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Originally Posted by Harlan
(Post 4619451)
Clogged cat would show normal AFR driving around but higher than normal EGT. Also when they cause the engine to stall they start puffing out the tailpipe. We have no fuel pressure or flow sensors so not much information you can get from there. I'll try to think of anything else.
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Ok, let me get some things straight.
This is your third engine. The problem started with similar symptoms on a previous engine. Cat was previously replaced. Coils/plugs have been replaced multiple times. Fuel tank empty vs full has no difference. If that about sums it up, then there must be a common thread, possibly the cause of all the problems, which is not the engine block, not the ignition, not the fuel pump, and not the cat. I've seen the SSV stick closed and drop a lot of power top end. Never seen it stick open, but it's possible. I remember a forum member who messed around with AP settings and got the secondaries to begin fueling with the SSV closed and that caused some interesting effects. So I guess it all could come down to the SSV sticking, but I've never seen it do what you describe. Might be good to reach in there with a long handled tool and see if it strokes easily. EGTs as measured from the front o2 sensor are around 1600-1650F in cruise at 65-70mph. They will drop below 1600 after the plugs self clean with a strong engine. If EGT is >1650 and stays there during cruise it's an indication of a problem. It could be from a clogged cat, or retarded timing, or a lean mix. Oh.... One more thing to log. IAT. If your IAT sensor is bad it could cause all sorts of issues. I've never heard of one going bad on an 8, but there's always a first. |
Originally Posted by Harlan
(Post 4619456)
Ok, let me get some things straight.
This is your third engine. The problem started with similar symptoms on a previous engine. Cat was previously replaced. Coils/plugs have been replaced multiple times. Fuel tank empty vs full has no difference.
Originally Posted by Harlan
(Post 4619456)
If that about sums it up, then there must be a common thread, possibly the cause of all the problems, which is not the engine block, not the ignition, not the fuel pump, and not the cat.
Originally Posted by Harlan
(Post 4619456)
I've seen the SSV stick closed and drop a lot of power top end. Never seen it stick open, but it's possible. I remember a forum member who messed around with AP settings and got the secondaries to begin fueling with the SSV closed and that caused some interesting effects. So I guess it all could come down to the SSV sticking, but I've never seen it do what you describe. Might be good to reach in there with a long handled tool and see if it strokes easily.
Originally Posted by Harlan
(Post 4619456)
EGTs as measured from the front o2 sensor are around 1600-1650F in cruise at 65-70mph. They will drop below 1600 after the plugs self clean with a strong engine. If EGT is >1650 and stays there during cruise it's an indication of a problem. It could be from a clogged cat, or retarded timing, or a lean mix.
Oh.... One more thing to log. IAT. If your IAT sensor is bad it could cause all sorts of issues. I've never heard of one going bad on an 8, but there's always a first. |
IAt and EGT both work in torque. Its what I use.
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Harlan, what about a bad injector that gets sticky when its hot?
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Originally Posted by Harlan
(Post 4619456)
EGTs as measured from the front o2 sensor are around 1600-1650F in cruise at 65-70mph. They will drop below 1600 after the plugs self clean with a strong engine. If EGT is >1650 and stays there during cruise it's an indication of a problem. It could be from a clogged cat, or retarded timing, or a lean mix.
I measured fuel flow while the engine was cutting out under load at higher rpms. When the engine would cut out it was around .32 gal/min and would not go higher. When it was not cutting out, I occasionally saw it spike to around .45 gal/min. So, the fact that it would not go above .32 gal/min when it engine was cutting out, could that be because of fuel starvation? Tomorrow I will try to measure AFT and voltage when the engine cuts out. |
Yeah the Bank 1 sensor 1 is the wideband and it indicates EGT. The high end EGT is pretty darn high, like I would be worried high, but we don't yet know why. I have seen 1740ish at high rpm and load, but I don't think I've ever seen it that high.
Your fuel flow indication is probably from injector pulse width. That sounds like fuel starvation, but your injectors are responsible. Definitely log MAF and IAT. Something is wrong, probably feeding load calc and it appears to be making you go lean. The other option is that your fuel flow calc is only using P1 injectors. Then it could be the right indication, but it would show fuel flow problems when your P2s/secondaries kick in. Lemme see what I can find out. |
Thanks!
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Originally Posted by Harlan
(Post 4620383)
Yeah the Bank 1 sensor 1 is the wideband and it indicates EGT. The high end EGT is pretty darn high, like I would be worried high, but we don't yet know why. I have seen 1740ish at high rpm and load, but I don't think I've ever seen it that high.
Your fuel flow indication is probably from injector pulse width. That sounds like fuel starvation, but your injectors are responsible. Definitely log MAF and IAT. Something is wrong, probably feeding load calc and it appears to be making you go lean. The other option is that your fuel flow calc is only using P1 injectors. Then it could be the right indication, but it would show fuel flow problems when your P2s/secondaries kick in. Lemme see what I can find out. I did not see anything unusual with AIT or voltage. Thanks again, everyone. |
13 is not too lean. Thats about target when tuning n/a. The 9 command is to give cooling to protect the cat. You should have more power at 12-13 than at 9 but not enough to notice only a few hp.
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Originally Posted by logalinipoo
(Post 4620523)
13 is not too lean. Thats about target when tuning n/a. The 9 command is to give cooling to protect the cat. You should have more power at 12-13 than at 9 but not enough to notice only a few hp.
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I agree that it is out of spec, what I'm saying is 13afr is not your cause of power loss. You are getting plenty of fuel.
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Originally Posted by logalinipoo
(Post 4620578)
I agree that it is out of spec, what I'm saying is 13afr is not your cause of power loss. You are getting plenty of fuel.
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Did you ever check your cat?
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Originally Posted by logalinipoo
(Post 4620586)
Did you ever check your cat?
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Your AFR chart that is posted shows the car running in the 10's.
That is too rich. |
Originally Posted by Razz1
(Post 4620642)
Your AFR chart that is posted shows the car running in the 10's.
That is too rich. |
The car commands as low as 9 if looking at atr maps. And i don't think it would indicate anything with the cat. Fuel is added based on air in. If you slow down air out through a bad cat you'll slow down air in.
Wide band sensors don't read correct when in a pressurized environment like a turbo manifold or maybe behind a clogged cat. |
Originally Posted by logalinipoo
(Post 4620737)
... Fuel is added based on air in. ...
Originally Posted by logalinipoo
(Post 4620737)
If you slow down air out through a bad cat you'll slow down air in. ...
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Dealer says the problem is the fuel pump. It tests fine when just started but over time the presure drops to the 40s and sometimes as low as 10 psi.
Free beers to logalinipoo (no lean code) and Tonik (fuel pump) and to everyone else for their help! |
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