Abtosway

Hi guys, I need your help or advice....

My 2006 rx8 6spd's engine seized at 60,000km. The engine was not covered under warranty because the previous owner did not have their maintenance records. I paid just over 5000 dollars for a new core to be installed into my car by the mazda dealership. This took them just over a month and a half. Now, this car has never had any issues ever, prior to the engine seizure.

After the dealership took my money, they drove my car around to me and I refused to accept it as it was hunting for idle from 1500-600rpm in a constant pattern. They took it back in the shop for an hour and gave it back to me, saying that there had been a vacuum leak. I made it 7km down the road when the car began to hunt again and then would immediately stall if I did not hold the throttle open. I called the dealership. They argued with me, but finally paid to have it towed back. The next day the dealership told me that I had a faulty air pump (for warming up the cat) and that it would be 800 dollars to fix. I marched down to the dealership and talked to the foreman, who, after some time, admitted that he didn't think that actually was the issue and that he may have crossed or miss-wired my fuel injectors. The next day I went to pick up my 'fixed' car, and again it went about 5km before it started to die.

I need your advice before I take it back to the dealership so that I can be informed about the likelihood that they are being honest with me, because I truly don't trust them anymore.

The car has a brand new motor, new spark plugs and new coil packs and a new air filter. (like 10km new)...

The issue seems to be intermittent, as in my driveway I have had the car idle for 15-20 minutes no problem a couple of times and it has been fine in traffic and then all of a sudden it will begin to hunt for idle for about 20 seconds and then it will die if I don't keep the throttle open.

There is no CEL or warning lights on in the car, nor has there ever been.

...
So...they tell me that there is absolutely no vacuum leaks for sure (do I trust them?)
...maybe a matf issue? but wouldn't there be a CEL?

...I am thinking some sort of idle air control valve issue or a throttle body, but I took it off and it looks very clean inside...

...fuel pump? ...but the car runs perfect and smooth at anything other than idle. It doesn't seem to be running noticeably rich out the exhaust and its performance is great.

...Electrical load doesn't seem to make a difference...also, if it is idling okay then ac doesn't affect it, and when it won't idle, ac doesn't make it die any faster...

What should I be checking?

thanks!

viprez586

iTrader: (5)

Send it back. It's the dealership's responsibility.
Tell them if they can't fix it you'll get Mazda North America involved and chat with they're regional rep.

viprez586

iTrader: (5)

Forgot to mention WTF are they doing rewiring injectors?!?!
This is a simple engine R+R.
Swap a few things. Connect everything the way it was and away she goes.
Maybe check for pinched wires. Sounds like that Mazda dealer doesn't know they're head from they're ***.

Abtosway

I absolutely agree that they should stand by their work...The dealership told me that because they never saw the car run (it came to them with a seized engine) any issues other than the actual core are not their problem and that I will have to pay for diagnosing and fixing these issues...

needless to say, I am more than a little frustrated....

like you said, its a simple simple procedure to follow the instructions and put these motors in..

I put an s5 motor in my 79sa, strapped a greddy t78 to it and wired in a microtech among a million other mods and I got that to idle...why is swapping a bone stock na rotary like this so difficult?

anyway...my frustrations aside...im super stumped at what would cause it to do this without tripping any check engine lights...

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

So? if the engine was the actual cause, it would not effect anything else, Engine is an engine.

then why would they take you money if the engine might not be the original issue?

more like another "oh my god I can't fix **** lets just deny deny and deny, and see if we can milk more money out of this sucker so we all can party on weekends!"

This is EXACTLY the reason why people don't trust dealerships.


it's actually not hard to swap RX-8 engine in, even I never done it before, I'm fairly sure it's not as hard as me doing an engine swap on my S5 NA almost all by myself. I know it's piece of cake to do RX-8.

couple of things effects the idle of the car, does the idle hunt if your foot is on clutch and in First gear ?

Abtosway

yes the idle will hunt (when it decides to) regardless of whether it is in gear with the clutch down, or just in neutral. That is how it was really killing me when I was in traffic coming back from the dealership. Every time I put the clutch in to break, if the rpms made it down to 1000 before I could catch them, the car would stall. it made for a dangerous game of revving and braking alternatively.

I just sat in the car and watched it do the hunt again. It seems to run fine for the first minute after startup just about every time and then regardless of whether I hit the clutch or the gas or do neither it seems to randomly decide to start hunting which inevitably results in the car stalling...

Occasionally, the car will start and idle just fine however. After it stalled a couple minutes ago it started up and idled just fine. I threw on the ac...it was fine..I hit the clutch..fine..turned on the brights...fine...rowed it through its gears with the clutch in and it was all good....

I shut the car down..Started it up again and it began to hunt and stall..

viprez586

iTrader: (5)

Be careful but use brake cleaner to chase down vacuum leaks.
Look in your throttle body too as it may need a nice cleaning. I'll have to look at what controls the idle on the rx8.

For reference, old hondas, and DSMs had idle issues.
Hondas- had FITV (Fast idle thermal valve) that would gum up with carbon and cause issues with sporratic idling. Furthermore they also had intake air temp sensor issues as well.
DSMs had ISC (Idle stepper control) issues where they would short or open circuit or even high resistance - this caused hot idle issues. These were fixed by replacing the ISC.

If i remember correctly the throttle body has a stepper motor in the rx8 controlling the idle speed.
Since they just replaced your engine, it makes perfect sense a potential issue is that they did not fully "burp" the cooling system, DEFINITELY make sure thats the case. Lisle makes a spill-free funnel for the cheap that works great.
If thats still not fixing it I've seen TPS (throttle position sensor) go bad and develop a "dead-spot".

Sorry if my reply seems rushed, just helping ya out before i shoot off to work this morning. Good luck!

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

First of all Abtosway, what country are you in? Second; you definitely want to be calm, courteous but firm with the dealer. Don't make enemies. You want them to be as interested in getting it right as you instead of resenting working for you.

Paul.

Loki

iTrader: (1)

It's a 2006? You're still well within the 8y/160,000km warranty period, you should not have paid anything in the first place. Previous owner's records are not required, only yours. Call Mazda North America and possibly a lawyer.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

He mentioned "KM" so I assume he is not in the states.

Loki

iTrader: (1)

^^
He paid in dollars, drove in kilometers, and he forms sentences like a north american.
He sounds Canadian eh?

Abtosway

haha great detective work regarding my nationality and idle issues guys... yes I am Canadian.

Mazmart, my nationality, and upbringing compels me to be polite and courteous (more bees with honey..and what not)

umm.. I will go test for vacuum leaks today. I understand what you are saying about a dead spot in the potentiometer of the tps, but wouldn't that throw a code? or no?

Unfortunately, it was Mazda Canada who denied my claim for a new core initially, so I don't expect that they will give me a free engine anymore; however, I do expect that the work I paid for should be done correctly.

Thanks for the help so far!

Abtosway

Update:

I just went out to search for vacuum leaks.

I started up my car and bam got a check engine light.
The car is running muuuch worse now. It is sputtering and popping out the back (sounds like a misfire or wickedly rich mixture) and the second I touch the gas to try to keep the engine alive the car stalls.

Mazda techs are on lunch break but I am going to call and try to get them to tow it in (hopefully on their dime) and to finally get them to even acknowledge that there is something wrong, because without the CEL before they were acting like I was trying to rip them off...

anyway... so could a crappy spark (and resultant crappy fuel burn) or a rich mixture have gummed up my 02 sensor(s) this quickly or any ideas?...

viprez586

iTrader: (5)

Yes. Running rich will make O2 sensors fouled.

What code do you have? That will be the first shed of light on the subject.

Abtosway

Okay guys, now I need your advice to either save me some money or to make the correct decision.

The service manager and the shop foreman actually drove across the city to my house to scan for codes. I think they figured if they could get a maft or o2 sensor code and then shirk liability for it, forcing me to pay for them to tow the car to the shop. However, they scanned the code and all it came out with was a "secondary air pump valve failure"...They service tech was all excited about how I needed to pay him 800 dollars for a new air pump. I took off the vacuum line leading to the air pump and plugged it with my finger and the car still hunted from 1800-500 rpm for its idle. The foreman agreed (Begrudgingly) that it didnt make sense that it was an air pump issue...does it?

Next, the two decided to drive my car into the shop...despite the fact that I asked them to tow it. I didnt want the car driven because it was backfiring and spitting gas out the back and I just new it was going to cause additional problems for me to fix.

Now this morning the service manager called me up and has told me that I need to do a new front o2 sensor for $600.00...

will an o2 sensor (and I understand the front one is some sort of wide band) solve all my problems...could it account for the sporadic hunting idle, stalling...and lastly, if the o2 sensor was that bad that it was causing all of this wouldn't we expect a check engine light for it?

thanks

1.3_LittersOfFurry

iTrader: (4)

Sounds like its time to go to another dealer or something.

For ***** and giggles next time the car is in your possession try unplugging and replugging the TB connector.
Also give the 20 brake stomp a go.

I had a slightly similar issue after a dealer repair. And that fixed it for me.

Loki

iTrader: (1)

Easy to test, take a 02 sensor off a working car and try it. If the dealer can't find out, see if anyone from your city is here on the forum. I don't know about rotaries but normally a faulty 02 sensor doesn't cause a hunting idle, it causes the ECU to run off the predetermined fuel maps which are less efficient than the closed loop. None of that has anything to do with idle speed.

Ask how they determined this to be the issue and report back here. And for god's sakes don't let them drive the car like that, rich condition will kill your cat.

First call you should be making is Mazda North America man, about who should be paying for the diagnosis of a freshly installed engine that's not working. This dealer sounds like they have no idea what's happening.

Abtosway

everything you are saying makes sense and is confirming my thoughts. They tell me that it is an o2 sensor because it apparently threw a code back at the shop. Yesterday I watched them read the codes and there was none for o2 sensor, only for the air pump...I really just think they are lying or straight up incompetent..


I called mazda canada and they told me that because it was an issue where I paid for the engine myself vs. a warranty replacement, the issue was simply between me and the shop. Mazda canada referred me to the general manager, who I called and left a message with but have not heard back from.

I told the shop foreman exactly that about the cat. I said I didn't want him driving it because he was going to foul my brand new sparkpluggs, gunk up my o2 sensors and cause the premature death of my cat...He just laughed and said all of those things are just myths...which of course they are not...

anyway...I guess I will call the general manager again.

Just so I know when I talk to him. If an o2 sensor is fouled or getting irregular readings it will immediately result in a cel right? Im not out to lunch saying that a fouled o2 sensor is just the result of whatever the underlying issue is..and since the issue is their fault and that led to the o2 sensor, they should be paying for it right? or am I off here?

thanks again..

also, I did the 20 brake stomps until the oil pressure gauge sweeped the other day.. no better after I'm afraid...

Loki

iTrader: (1)

They sound pretty incompetent so far. A competent shop doesn't find something new wrong every time they look at the car.
If the 02 sensor was itself broken, you'd get a CEL. If it's fouled ... not sure.

Regardless of whether he thinks it's a myth, you're the customer and it's your say whether or not they do something to your property.

You can ask Mazda Canada if the shop actually tried to get approval for the original engine replacement. If they didn't, that's an issue, and while it's between you and the shop, it sounds like fraud to me. I don't believe it's their decision ultimately, Mazda decides.

Do you have any details on what exactly was replaced with the engine? How about ignition coils, spark plugs, etc?

Whereabouts are you located?

viprez586

iTrader: (5)

The air/fuel aka "O2" sensor is probably FUBAR from them driving it to the dealership pig rich.

I'd ask for an explaination of how it'd cause a hunting idle. Furthermore if thats the case, disconnecting the air/fuel sensor would put the car in limp mode and isolate the issue. If the car runs like *** it's not the A/F sensor. It some other issue due to the fact that limp mode is designed to make a car run fine till the issue is corrected and not potentially blow up the engine.

I've NEVER seen, nor heard of a sparratic idle due to an "O2" or air fuel sensor in my 5 years of automotive profession. Sure, maybe idle like ****. But definitely not idle surge as you explain it.


While it really sucks. I'd go to a dealership and explain the issue. They'll charge you a diagnostic fee. When you figure it out, get it all in writing so you can show this shady mazda dealer theyre diagnostics were incorrect. Maybe they'll pay for it.

Deathwatch

Stealerships Sucks

Abtosway

Thanks for all your input guys... the mazda dealership is still trying to figure out the issue...My car has been gone yet another week. Today they called me after installing the oxygen sensor which (surprise) didnt fix the issue, so it will be gone at least a few more days...

when you say to get it in writing, should I be asking them for a complete write up of their diagnostic...like what they actually did each day over the last month and a half that they have had my car?

Loki

iTrader: (1)

That would definitely help your case in the future. If things get worse, they'll be less likely to cooperate on providing that.

viprez586

iTrader: (5)

Yup. At this point I'd tell them your not gonna pay for that air/fuel sensor because it was a misdiagnosis. Wait to see what they find out. If it's something they did - DON'T pay for anything.

Keep us posted!
Geez that dealer is no bueno.

djfa

iTrader: (3)

Umm im just gonna throw my idea since no one seems to have suggested it.

Maybe your MAF is faulty or really dirty and its not throwing a code. I saw a video on youtube with someone with a bad idle like yours and it turns out there was something in his intake system.

An unsecured spark plug wire could be doing this as it moves when you drive. Make sure you hear the <click> when you put it in.