Has Mazda defined the word "synthetic"?
A lot of synthetic oils are just overly refined mineral oils and are still mineral oils. Even synthetic oils have mineral oil used as carriers for additives.

Or, has Mazda compiled a list of synthetic oils that do not burn.
Some of the MSDS's for synthetic oils shows that flash point no higher than some of the mineral oils. Is 50 degrees higher oil burning temperature gonna make a difference when combustion temperature is XXXX degrees. You find that number out.

How does one get a job as "specialist customer assistance ebusiness"? What is a specialist? Overrated phone answering customer service nobody now using a computer instead of a phone directory?

Wanna see synthetic burn! With a running hot engine, pour some all over your exhaust manifold. Enjoy the smoke show. Have a extinguisher ready if you spill too much.

OK, so where the hell is RX7FD3? He spouts some odd theories, calls me a newbie based on God only knows what (perhaps the conviction of his 18 posts at that point) "corrects" me about proper usage of Protek-R, and when he gets called on it he vanishes. C'mon, take your medicine! :D

Im done with this thread and soon ill be done with this forum.

Every single thread i post or i respond or even anyone who doesnt have an RX-8 in their sig, seems to be beaten down in this forum.

FOrums are meant to post opinions and to talk about it, to either agree or disagree. Yet it seems that RX-8 owners are coming accross as complete asswholes, Not everyone in the forum but in just about every post i see where someone taht doesnt own an RX-8 seems to be attacked.

I hate to admit it, 3 of my firiends who own RX-7s have left this forum for this reason, C'mon...

We are all part of the rotary family, lets not give that bad image. Supra owners and forum members of the supra forum are well known for that, lets not make rx-8 owners look that way too.

MSDS - Material Safety Data Sheet.

Mobil 1 0W-30 MSDS info

Flash Point C(F): 234(453) (ASTM D-92).

Well, I keep asking one question, and it's a fact that in Owner provided docs from Mazda, it does not state anywhere that you can not use Synthetic.

Now, we appreciate your insight into the RX7 manual, and I'm sure a lot of people will use that information!

If they are leaving because of a few trolls, that's a sad thing :(

I did find this on the 'net:

http://www.organicanews.com/news/art...m?story_id=211

You'll have to scroll down a ways, or search for "Mazda".

I still don't have any docs from Mazda that say not to use synth in the 8!!!!

Yes. Roush Mustangs.

And to be nit-picky, "Mazda does not suggest synthetic oil use for the RX-8"
Nor do they "suggest" you use any other type of oil, except to give you a specification and let you use anything that meets those specs. Sounds like lawyer-speak.
They warn "against" nothing, and "suggest" nothing. Leaves Mazda clear of the lawsuits.

Not that this helps but...
 

"To answer your question, a number of years ago Mazda evaluated the
performance of synthetic oils and determined that their characteristics
may result in lower compression pressure or excess oil consumption due
to insufficient lubrication of seals and the rotor surface. In fact, the
recommendation against the use of synthetics continues to stand for
their RX rotary engine today.

Although Castrol Syntec and Syntec Blend have been used successfully in
racing RX7 vehicles with rotary engines, we cannot recommend the use of
Castrol Syntec and Syntec Blend in Mazda rotary engines, because we
respect the decision made by Mazda.

Thank you for contacting Castrol, The Technology Leader!

Castrol Consumer Relations."



I asked Castrol's Ask the expert on the use of synthetics on rotary engines...

...seems they also have lawyers for engineers:(

Actually it's a 2nd gen Turbo II. And it seems to me the Renesis is one of the hottest f'ing engines around. I apparently don't know anything about rotaries, but since you seem to know everything about the Renesis, perhaps you could enlighten us and tell us how hot it gets in the combustion chamber?

Since I'm sure this is at least partially directed at me....

I don't own an RX-8, at least not yet...I own an FD! Another assumption gone awry.

Maybe you really, really do not know how your initial posts sound...go back and read them. Seriously, in every thread I've seen you post in, you make these matter-of-fact statements that are really quite outrageous, and you have zip in the way of facts to back them up. When people catch you in this, you either start talking down to everyone like you have this superior knowledge base and everyone else is ignorant, or you backtrack and say something about how you were just trying to get a nice discussion going....etc etc. Go back and re-read your "thread entry" posts...this is not a flame (not this time :D Those posts really do come off sounding VERY annoying, its not surprising to me that you're getting jumped.

jds

PS: I still want to know how long you've been putting Protek-R in your oil :D

I appologize if i had offended anyone or if i came accross that way, every thing started a few smart remarks a few people said and it went on from there.
Even though im pretty knowledgable about FCs and FD, im new to the RX-8s and the reason why im here is to learn about them so i can be ready when i buy one in march.

Again, i appologize and i didnt imtend to sound or come accross in any disrespectful way.

The appology howver does not apply to Gordon, as he is been stalking every post i make and trackin word by word everything i say to just reply with something smart about it.

And to answer your question ive been using protek-R since my last engine rebuilt, my first 2 engines were stock with no sort of abuse whatsoever and my very last engine seems to be holding pretty well and this time is getting modded step by step

Bingo! and we'll find that non-synthetic API SL oils are fairly close to that flashpoint, too -- about 400 (F).

And then consider the combustion chamber temps -- as someone posited earlier, an order of magnitude greater!

Finally, (IANAL!) I'm pretty sure one can find the (US federal?) mandate that car manufacturers cannot specify a specific brand of oil, but rather the recommended API service rating and weight(s). And as such, ANY oil commercially available to the consumer, meeting the specified API service rating and weight, must be considered usable. That's one of the main reasons for the API service rating in the first place. I'll see if I can find the actual verbage...

Hey, I just wanted to join this monster multi-thread that is synthetic v. non-synthetic ;)

Sweet! So if you can find that federal law, we can sue the customer service rep for false information!!!! (but only if you have personally received it ;) ;) )

I just want to know what the big deal is with synthetic. If mazda says that it is not necomended, then why argue, really. I mean, If you had to drive two identical RX-8s where one had dino oil and one had synthetic, could you tell which one had synthetic in it. I guess i just don't understand why you have to argue with the ENGENEERS who designed the engine. If you do get them to say yes, physics won't just magicaly change and the chemical properties of synthetic oil will change and it will be O.K. to use it in the 13B. Don't get me wrong, i like synthetic too, but if it isn,t tested to be superior in the 13B, then i'm not going to use it.

The reason I'm arguing the point is synthetic is supposed to be superior in every way when compared to conventional oils. To me, it doesn't make sense why those characteristics don't carry over into the rotary. I've heard everyone's explanation, some of which makes sense, some does not (Castrol's explanation doesn't make sense). I would like to see the data that shows synthetic oil harms rotaries. In addition, the data (for the naysayers) they are using may be old: Different rotary, different type of synthetic oil formulation.

I would like to use synthetic if it could prolong engine life and handle hard driving better. Again, all the data provided explaining the characteristics of synthetic shows it is a superior lubricant.

One of the major points of contention is that Mazda does not appear to be of one mind on the issue. In the past they've specifically stated their recommendation against synthetic oils in the Owners Manual. This is where any such warning belongs; aside from a possible placard on the engine itself -- sort of like the "unleaded fuel only" sign on the gas. For some reason, the RX-8 owners manual does NOT mention synthetic oil at all. If one assumes that Mazda as an organization is competent enough to handle these issues then it is natural to assume that there is no adverse effect of using synthetic oil in the RX-8 as long as it meets the specification set forth in the Owners Manual.

Nobody is arguing with the Mazda engineers since as far as I know nobody here has communicated directly with them. All of the "mazda" comminiques against synthetic have been from salesmen or service departments, or customer assistance queries. If the engineers had evidence of harm from synthetics it's inconceivable to me that this would not be in the Owner's Manual.

The wild card in this equation is the little guide published earlier in this thread. I'm curious as to its origin. It does recommend against synthetics but I'm wondering of its source.

I'm tempted to believe there is a schism within Mazda itself on this issue.

What's missing, of course, is any objective scientific evidence or quantification of just what synthetics allegedly are doing to harm the engine. "Doesn't burn" is a pretty lame explanation.

Yes, we are missing scientific information!

The fact that Mazda left it out of owner supplied information COULD relate to the fact that they can support it with Ford breathing down their neck... eh... or something like that ;)

Why would they leave it out of the manual?

Oversight? - they would have to mail each owner about not using synthetics.

It's bad? Then why not notify each owner about the problems?

Who cares? - you can't prove that synths ruined your engine..... so who cares what you thing.

It's ok - and they are just not supporting it.


Anyway you look at it, there is not enough info to make a decision, but enough second hand information to freak out about.

As long as you provide, as your engine's life blood, what is provided as the specification in the manual, I don't see how synthetics can be a problem.

...once again, I'm not running synths, but I'm anxious to see the "federal law" and other supporting docs, both FED and from MNAO!

If this helps anyone with their decision on what to use... I used synthetic in my RX-7 TurboII for over 50,000 miles with no problems...

I use GTR Castrol non synth on my FD and it burns like hell
need 1 quart every 1000 miles and no I do not have oil leak anymore :)

I don't mean to beat a dead horse or anything, but Mobil just wrote me this:

Just thought I'd throw in more confusion to the debate ;)

FWIW, I was given a Mazda RX-8 Driver's info card (from Mazda) by the dealer about three weeks ago that specifically states that you should not use synthetic oil. So, now Mazda is on the record, in writing, but I guess the "intern" prepared the card!

Forgive me for not reading the 4 pages of posts here, I have a short attention span tonight and a limited amount of time :) For those of you who dont know I work for a mazda dealership. I have been skiming these posts for the past week and been trying to help clear up some of the questions and issues that are floating around.

The synthetic oil thing seems to be a big one. I have it beaten into my head that synthetic oil is not good for rotaries. Its big debate, that I understand and I am not saying you cant do it or not to do it, just giving you a little further insight into Mazdas reasoning.

The Renesis states to use 5W-20 oil. Thats the cut and dry of it. If your engine blows up and a dealership has to replace it what is going to happen is, the blown motor goes back to Mazda and they tear it down piece by piece and inspect it like they have since the early 80's.

The Techincal Highlights book (which I am looking at the moment) states, " ..the use of synthetic oil may be a factor on warranty claims.. "

And think about it....and this is directly from the Mazda RX-8 Class Instrutors. For every 600 miles you drive your car, you burn 1 quart of oil. You all know that the REnesis engine you have is an oil hog. It just burns oil. Its apart of owning the car. In the end, how much money are you going to spend using Synthetic oil compared to -20W?

Now, am I saying that synthetic oil is going to void your warranty, cause your engine to flake out? No and no. Im just saying that Mazda is EXTREMELY ANAL about this car and that engine. Its the newborn baby so its getting all the attention. The original post about synthetic oil cuasing the apex seals to " stick " and the seals to bind....yes it does. One of my technicains worked on racing platform RX-7s for a couple of years, so out of everyone he is the guy I trust the most about failures. The chemical compound in synthetic is different that regular oil. The fine details I dont know, you would have to talk to an engineer, but that right there is way Mazda says no. But let me stress, it takes a lot to break down syntethic oil to that point and will you do it? Probably not.

So in the end what is the big deal about the difference between 5W-20 and syntetic when you consider this:

-the motor burns oil at an average of 1 quart for every 600 miles.
-synethic is more expensive.
-mazda favors 5W-20, which is good with the warranty

What is the advantage of dropping more money into a car that burns oil regardless of what kind it is? Long life? With 1 quart to 600 mile ratio, it seems pointless to me. Then again I dont drive an RX8 except around my lot on occasion lol

It boils down to this....no using syntethic wont hurt the car based on statistics, BUT if your engine blows and Mazda determies its because of synthetic oil (which I have never heard of), be ready to float the bill. Upwards of 3Gs brand new or 6Gs if you want it rebuilt. Stick to the 20W, save some money, and possible troubles in the future.

Let the bitching begin lol

SnyderMazz:

That's the problem, mazda has not provided this documentation to any owners as part of any documentation yet!

opps 2x post