Heres an update on the issue at hand. The rep from the dealership calls me today and says that the problem that my car did have to do with the apv being (go figure) and said the bulletin that i showed him was the issue. He also said it normally takes 410 bucks to get it replaced but he said he would waive the fee because of the mix up. I mentioned to him why didnt he take my advice when i showed him the bulliten the first time and he totally avoided my question. Score 1 for the rx8club. Thanks for all the help guys. I still dont have my car back hopefully when i get it back i will finally get my issue resolved.

Good news Shijin-Kun!

see my methods bring results lmao, certain words and phrases provoke a desire to repair a vehicle at a dealer :). (refer to sig)

kevin.

I just got this CEL code too! P2004: intake manifold runner stuck open. Lately, I've noticed I really have to rev it higher than usual from standstill to get the car moving. Also, the fan stays on for 1-2 minutes after I turn the engine off (prob unrelated but wanted to throw it out there)

About a month ago, I had new coils/plugs/wires put in and engine de-carbed with new chemicals and memory reset.

A few questions:
(1) THe P2004 is unrelated to the plugs/coils/wires work I had done, right? So it wouldn't help to push Mazda on a labor warranty?
(2) Is it safe to drive with this P2004 CEL light on (just tomorrow)?
(3) What do you guys recommend? JUst go to dealer? I read the PDF in this thread and it looks like its just an APV replacement? Whats an estimate? $300? Is this something that fellow RX8 club members help each other out with?
(4) someone said revving the engine might get rid of it? is that true?

THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!

Yes... unrelated
You should be fine.
The valve begins to open at 6250rpm, so just don't race around tomorrow ;)

Depends on your comfort level. I always do my own work whenever possible.
It could be a bad motor or positioning sensor (which is built into the motor assembly).
It could be build-up on the valves causing them to stick.
Applying 12VDC to the motor (with it still installed into the intake manifold) will cycle the valves back and forth.
You can actually hear the valves moving, so you know they are free.
Sometimes simply cycling them like that helps.

Nope... while the valve does open until 6250rpm, but it also depends on engine load and vehicle speed.
If the car isn't moving, then the airflow into the intake isn't increasing and the valve won't have a need to open.

Thanks for your response Jon!

Also, your previous posts in this thread helped too (re: handling issues with a service dealer).

Just got off the phone with the service rep: She said the mechanic would need to remove the entire engine in order to unstick the intake valves/APV!!! $1437!!!! Parts are nothing, it would be all labor!! SHe said my other option is just take the car now with the same CEL that i had when I drove it in.

What do you guys think??? BOgus?? Send to another dealer? Please let me know, I told her I'd call her back in an hour. Thanks!

fax her this: http://www.finishlineperformance.com...14-07-1777.pdf
??

says nothing about removing engine??

and if she insists on removing the engine for $1400, take my car to a better dealer?? thanks for your advice guys

I went ahead and faxed the PDF to the service rep.

I just called her and she said she'd take it to the mechanic.

If he says the engine removal is still needed, it just seems like overkill and $1400 is just way too much it seems.

The mechanic said that teh PDF deals with APV that are not sticking inside, and that my APV is sticking. He said he could follow the steps in the PDF and replace the gear/O-ring/etc as described in the PDF, but that I'd get the same CEL code again (could be days or months or even more) since the APV is sticking.

$340 for this. $1400 for the engine removal method.

what u guys think???

Just called a Melbourne Dealer where the #1 Mazda technician in the world works (Mark Wilhelm).

They told me the only time an engine is ever removed is if its being replaced. Hence, they have no idea why the technician is removing the engine, since the technician didn't say he's replacing it.

I think I'll take my car out to Melbourne and have that technician work on it.

Well...............

1.) You had Jon in this thread and it doesn't get any better when discussing stuck valves, so you were in good hands there.

2.) I'm glad you found the TSB pdf and presented it your dealer. If you read that pdf it doesn't sound horrible to do, although I don't know that I would attempt it myself. I also believe I read that it says they expect the labor charge(if warranty, which we know you aren't) to be .7 hours if I read it right. But take that with a grain of salt.

3.) While I didn't recommend this dealer for this occurrence, you and I talked about this before, and from your PM, I know the car is now supposedly at that Melbourne dealership now right? Did you drive it over here? I'm only about three miles from that dealership over on the beachside.

4.) Well, let's hope they do you right(Mark works on it, or at least oversees) and I hope they know some people are watching! At least those of us close by are certainly watching to see what they say and do(charge). :yesnod:
Remember, that if you don't like what they say or charge, you don't have it done there either!

Dave

Thanks Dave. As I said in my PM to you...

-Mark concurred with the Orlando tech -- the engine must be removed to unstick the APV which is stuck in the manifold.

-The service rep was outside talking to me and Mark at the same time -- she said Mark showed her an auto-trans engine without the APV at issue, and a man-trans engine with the APV, and how the engine must be removed to unstick it.

-The second dealer said they'd match the $1330+tax quoted by first dealer, but would have charged more.

-I asked her "what if I do nothing?"; Mark said: you'll have loss of power at high RPM and the CEL light will stay on. The only deal breaker seems to be the CEL light staying on, as I'll never know if some other CEL code pops up.

-I goofed up when I took the car to Melboune, as I forgot to bring the PDF of the $200-300 APV Service Bulletin. I emailed the PDF to the service rep tonight and left her a message to call me once she's shown it to Mark, asked him the cost, and if this would shut off the CEL. The Orlando tech said that, after performing the APV Service Bulletin in the PDF, the CEL light will shut off, but the same CEL code may come on in days, months or years. Its a big risk, but $1100 cheaper. I'll wait to hear from Mark tomorrow, but am leaning toward the less costly fix.

-Bottom line: $1400 is too much to fix a non-critical issue that is not affecting the car's basic operation. My 2 cents.

getoutdaway- Keep in mind that nobody proved that the valves are actually stuck.
This code could be just the motor/positioning sensor.
Removing the APV motor and spinning the gear (on the manifold) will give you an idea if its seized.
Or like I said above, apply 12V to the motor with it installed and listening for the valves to move will also let you know if the valves are seized.
I wouldn't spend money without knowing what is really wrong.

^....think that's gonna be an issue for him Jon. Not sure he's that mechanically inclined(no offense).
I think he's going to be a the mercy of whatever they tell him. I just hope that they don't try and take advantage. Hopefully he will get a clear list of his options and prices now that he will have what amounts to a second opinion.

I know that I'm not good enough in this area other than to offer some generic advice.


For instance......and excuse my lack of knowledge here Jon, but let's assume he goes for the less expensive option. Would a full decarb or seafoam treatment possibly help here once done or not?

Yeah... and the problem is they will likely not properly troubleshoot this and make him buy a new motor to see if it works.
Then if it doesn't, move on to freeing the valves... which they can probably cycle through the WDS.

THanks Jon -- I just sent another email to the service rep with those 2 items, asking if she can confirm if either has been done to confirm that the valve is seized. I presume the first one is the PDF service bulletin?

Thanks again, much appreciated!

For the APV... maybe... if you can get some of the fluid to settle on the barrels and they're not badly seized.
If the valves are really seized... I wouldn't put money on it.
Just thinking back to the seized SSV I worked on and sprayed SeaFoam directly at the valve (with the UIM off) several times and could not get it free that way.

Like I mentioned above, not sure if their WDS unit can perform this since I've never used one, but they may be able to cycle the valve with it.
And they can simply listen for that valves to move back and forth.
When I cycle the APV with a DPDT switch, I'm usually above where the battery sits and can hear the valves cycling.
Then they'll know if its seized!

none taken! its true! :o: The first dealer already offered a $300 job based on the Service Bulletin, so if the second dealer comes back with something insane I can just go back to the first dealer. Like Jon said though, I'll wait their response on what they've specifically done to verify the APV is stuck.

and supposing they do that and confirm the valve is seized -- what help would the PDF Service Bulletin be? THe first dealer tech said it would remove the CEL light code, but I don't see how if the code means the valve is stuck and it is in-fact still stuck? :crazy: The reason I ask is I'd prefer a less costly service, but dont see how it helps if the valve is stuck? Excuse my lack of knowledge in these areas...

If the valves are seized... a new motor won't help and the code will come back.
Though looking back through that PDF I saw at the bottom under the "Verify Operation of APV After Repair" they were using the WDS to cycle the valves... so I don't see why they can't perform this to very if they are seized.

^.......right!

Thanks Jon. Can they just clear that specific CEL code, so the CEL goes off (for that specific code) and I'm clear for other CEL codes to light up? I guess not! Why don't we have a second CEL? :)

I just called them back to make sure they got the PDF and the questions from Jon (I didn't say they were from Jon LOL). When I got to the second dealer, I told them I was referred there by friends on a mazda RX8 forum, so in my email I said my forum friends are interested in how this plays out (nice pointer there Mazurfer!):rock:

Just spoke with the technician:

-I asked him how we know that the APV valve is stuck, and if he did the 12V test suggested by Jon.
-He said "we did it with IDS (mazda service tool), which operates the valve open/closed. I did that yesterday. There was no movement, and you could hear the engine slowing down"
-Regarding the Service BUlleting, he said it was for 04 Rx8's, and said some jibberish I didn't understand about how 2004 cars were 129,000 split? 2005 cars were modified to 125,000, to tighten up backlash? and the gear was modified to tighten the teeth? huh? :)
-other things he said:
-you can lose low RPM power if stuck open, lose high RPM power if stuck closed. For high performance cam shaft engines: they give a bumby idle, have no bottom end power, but lots of top end power and vice versa with motor home engines: light cam shaft engine, so lots of bottom end, nothing in top end: this is what the APV is for: only for high RPM: 7500. So if stuck open: since rotary has no valve, but instead only quarts, its like leaving the intake valve in piston engine open too long and throws off camshaft timing, so doesn't make compression stroke until later in rotation of engine because the APV is stuck open, so we leave APV closed except at high RPM, since it does the engine no good to be open @ low RPM
-he confirmed that the computer diagnostic test did confirm that the valve was stuck, as the computer did try to actuate the valve
-he already started to take off vaccum hoses (top part), and APV gear, despite the message I left last night with service rep to not do the engine removal method and instead the Service Bulletin method. I told him that I left the voicemail last night, and he said if I send him my service records from my regular mazda dealer, he'd talk to mazda rep about "helping me out" with the cost. I told him I wasn't agreeing to the engine removal service yet, until I find out how much help I'd get.
-he also said he talked to the tech who worked on my car at the first dealership and confirmed that my engine decarb was for stall/lack of power, not a regular maintenance decarb, so seemed to suggest it was unrelated for that reason

So it seems its confirmed that the APV is stuck? And I shouldn't expect much help from Mazda? I might just drive it away with the CEL on? :(