once again, you are full to the very brim within yourself of; and do only spread, mistruth.
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Having gone back and read the full thread, now have to admit that I was describing myself me and not Kevin. Despite my participation in the thread over several years I didn’t recall most of this. I also recognize not having really known what the actual MOP output was, but was working more on assumptions and lore. As such I didn’t really know enough to be commenting on the subject or making such an accusation. It’s entirely my error created by my own doing, and entirely on me for people to judge as they see fit.
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Nope, that is a correct statement. I have seen it deliver that much myself, both on a bench and in 2 different cars.

I have a Sohn (2, actually), therefore I can measure these things. :yelrotflm

well if I’m wrong then i’m wrong, but I know a catalytic converter is not going to live long at 3 - 4 oz per gallon and having competed myself under those conditions as many others too; along with 1 oz per gallon premix being a historically proven NA rotary engine fact for pro racer/builders for 40+ years (that you now question btw) including for the Mazda Pro Formula Renesis engine race car series, it doesn’t really add up. Pretty much like a lot of other things you post on this and other subjects. So I’ll take my chance on being in error on this point then because simply stated; I don’t put much faith in your say so.

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Perfectly fine with me.

I would tell you and others to try anything I say themselves if they want to, and learn on their own, and I've said that from day 1 on this forum.

Quote from page 1 ...........

When I measured it on my bench around the same time as you started this thread, with the sector gear at position 60, and my drill spinning at 1000 rpm, (2000 e shaft rpm) what I measured extrapolated to what your graph showed at peak, and in fact higher.

Also I measured on one of the cars (unmodified) and I got *about* a 30:1 ratio when running a simulated 20 min heat on the roads by house in the wee hours of the morning, trying to duplicate racing conditions, using the Ultragauge MPG calculator and measuring the Sohn tank depletion. I measured it similarly after the two OMP mods, and the output was, well, A LOT, enough to satisfy myself it was safe to run, around the time when the idea that the Sohn was not capable of enough output was circulating on here

When modified the peak output goes up dramatically, also. Which I see now on two cars I use as my DD, every week when I fill the Sohn tank.

And FWIW the R26B in the 24 Hrs of LeMans 787B cars used an OMP, I believe exclusively- no premix.



https://com.mazdacdn.com/common/ja/a...0101370000.jpg

https://www.rx7club.com/attachments/...75041303_n.jpg

This seems irrelevant since the LeMans had extremely stringent rules that among hundreds of other rules likely dictated what could and could not be added to fuel, in addition the car had very few miles driven overall even though it was at full tilt mostly it's whole life.

I suppose many things are irrelevant in this thread since it's titled Oil metering pump output and modification, and not Omp versus premix, and I'm probably guilty of crossing that line as well. Unfortunately there's not a lot of activity going on in the forums anymore, so here we are talking about the same things as we were 14 years ago, wild!

I’ve still never heard anywhere near those rates before. The one big difference from a 2-stroke engine is the 2-stroke piston/crank rod ends are lubricated by the premix oil.

Straight off the Racing Beat website; 0.6 oz/gal for a stock 13B on street gas and 4.2 oz/gal for a 600 whp turbo 13B on methanol fuel.

Daryl Drummond told me 1oz/gal was all a Renesis needed. That’s all they ran on the Mazda Pro Formula Renesis race engines that often saw multiple race season service between rebuilds. I’m running 1 oz/gal premix with 0.5 oz/gal alcohol top lube using E50 on the REW turbo. Iannetti recommends 2 to 2.5 oz/gal with their iRotary steel apex seals, but that’s unique to the seal material. It’s only 1 oz/gal with their ceramic seals. Dr. Iannetti is no technical slouch.

something isn’t adding up here …
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Mazdatrix; Dave Lemon is another old time builder/racer

Pettit Racing/Cameron Pettit; another old school rotary builder/racer; specifically for their Protek R oil:

the source of the Sohn device; Rotary Aviation aka Real World Solutions

Yes, I have seen all of those. And I will add one more, Lyn E. Hanover who is on the NoPistons site, whose knowledge and experience I respect, also recommends the same 1oz per gallon ratio.

But, the stock OMP delivers less than that at low throttle (highway cruising is next to nothing. Stock setting at 70mph is position 3 of 60) but much more at full throttle.

Like I said, I question that ratio, not because I think those men are all wrong and I am right, which you might assume, so I want to get that out of the way. I just question how is that possible, how is that best? Apex seals need oil for cooling as well as lubrication, and as I said Mazda's materials and coatings are not state of the art by any means. Also, each "dose" of oil in the intake charge has to cover a lot more surface area in a rotary than in a 2 stroke, and be available far longer, since it is a 4 stroke cycle.

I stand in the question, because of the reasons I stated. In a 2 stroke piston engine the bearings would not be the first to fail at those ratios, the piston and rings would suffer first, and then the cylinder surface. The piston has thrust wear, which the rotary does not, except in a different manner on the flank of the apex seals in the grooves, an area of rapid wear in these engines. In my limited experience, the area of these Mazda engines solely lubricated by total loss is the first to show wear, and the first to wear out, and shows evidence of lubrication failure, all over the place.

Also, I will add this in here from Racing Beat also. I know a lot of us are aware of it, but it hasn't been posted here and may be useful. I believe from how the article is written, that the engine in question was also using the OMP in addition to the stated ratio of premix (77:1).

RX-8 - Race Tips

While undertaking development work on the RX-8 Renesis engine for SCCA T2/T3 use, we decided to introduce extra oil into the fuel to monitor the effect. To our surprise, this additional oil increased power! Further dyno testing found that by adding 10 oz. of Royal Purple 2-Stroke Oil to 6 gallons of fuel, we gained an average of 1.7 HP from 2000-9000 RPM, along with an increase in peak power of 4 HP. We validated this increase by changing back to a "non-oiled" fuel - and the power returned to the previous level. Later, we tried the same test with another brand of synthetic oil with nearly the same results.

For racing applications, the addition of a high quality synthetic oil increases power and most certainly decreases wear. The only negatives are the cost of the oil and an increase in the tendency to foul the spark plugs. (Note: We have not performed these tests on non-RX-8 engines yet, these results are unknown.)

I am sure the use of the OMP was rules driven. There is no other reason to add complexity. But, that car was likely driven for more miles in that one race though, than any privateer RX8 race car here in an entire race season. Maybe 2. Maybe even 3.

And this from Eric Meyer (way back when), which speaks to the output properties of the OMP. I assume its the standard 1.5 quart tank that was ( is still ) in popular use. This correlates well with the output ability I have seen myself. I believe he went to 1oz per gallon on OMP elimination later. I have not found out why. Again, this is about the pump output.

Also, I will add to this. I have seen ALL oil injection pumps on motorcycles and watercraft, and my old FB, produce gobs of oil consumption at their max settings. The RX8 is no different.

The info in the last sentence below, assuming 14 gallons gas, and 1.5 quarts oil, equates to 36:1. From what he is saying, that is not the maximum output either. If its just a quart in the tank, its still 56:1.

Note: We feed our OMP with the rotary aviation remote feed (which blocks off the pull of crankcase motor oil) and allows us to use a two stroke product. The OMP is not connected to any map and runs mechanically. Current rate of use is approx 1 qt per hour of WOT operation (give or take 10%). Turning up the manual dial on the OMP increases the rate of oil consumption and lowers the EGT by about 25F but limits car operation to about 1/2 hour (not long enough for us to run a full tank of fuel for an enduro or our 50 minute World Challenge races (plus parade and cool down laps). We have our OMP set so it runs approx a full tank of fuel at .89 Lambda.

And I will say this about oil consumption: If there was no internet, and I wasn't aware of anyone's opinion and experience, if I looked inside these engines I would think, "There is not enough oil here."

And I would run my engines with more oil, which I definitely do. People would probably think me nuts with the ratios I am running.

I am not saying anyone with vastly more experience than I is wrong and I am right. No way. I just know what I see, and base my usage on what I see. Everyone else is free to do the same. I don't mind standing in a question, where I don't understand prevailing consensus, and could be right or wrong. I'm OK with that. I am not trying to prove any point, I am very content to discuss and have others bring their info and experience, especially if they differ with what I think.

you quoting Eric on that says plenty; that’s been disproven many times over. He was flat out wrong. But then we all have been mistaken over the history of time. There are things I claimed back then and further that are wrong, and I repent from them.

but Jim Downing and Rick Engman, what could they possibly know about rotary engines under wot conditions compared to anyone else … heh


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...e1b98c238.jpeg

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The amount of oil he quotes using is wrong? I think you are missing the point. Read what I wrote.

BTW, that info is straight off the Idemitsu website

Here’s the info for the new Bio-Rotary Premix that both Mazdatrix and KMR are promoting/selling:

TREAT RATES
Use 1/2oz. of Premix to 1 gallon for alcohol fuels (High Ethanol Blends or Methanol), track use or spirited driving with modified and boosted motors
Use 1/4oz. of Premix to 1 gallon for regular fuel (Gasoline), for daily drivers that are non-modified, N.A. motors


^^bet that will make somebody have an oopsie in their rear underpants :suspect:
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Did you read anything I wrote?

I was responding to this lovely post of yours. Looks like you are going off the rails again. Have a nice day.

So do to this stupid Omp which is not being used my car is in limp mode....again.

nope, pretty much am addressing it as I see fit for everyone else to consider and assess for their self. Including if they want to conclude that I’m off the rails or whatever. Because I’m just not caring what anyone else thinks in that regard.

I know Mazda has this information listed somewhere and I have many, many years of accumulated documentation to go back through to hopefully find it.

Sorry for your troubles red line, at least you’re honed in on where the issue is.
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You said you had never seen those ratios anywhere, re the OMP. I showed you two examples after you accused me of spreading mistruths that the OMP outputs 3x-4x that amount at full throttle. Brett posted his graph. Then you said "Eric's been proven wrong", ( about what? What I posted? No, of course not) and then never addressed the Racing Beat quote. I believe you saw the 1% comment and stopped reading.

Now this thread is about 1% premix instead of the OMP, and you proving yourself right about a point I made tangentially, while making ad hominem attacks about how much I don't know, etc.

Of course you are off the rails. Classic Team response. Sad.