Re: Quick Question regarding purchase
Originally posted by Skyline Maniac Just a quick question: Base on the recent dyno results, the RX-8 6MT seems to be making 210-215hp at the crank. If this information is indeed accurate, how does it affect your purchasing decision on the RX-8? For those who have purchased the car already, would knowing such information prior to your purchase change your ultimate decision in buying the car? Be honest and hopefully some people from Mazda USA would be paying attention to your responses. (Better yet, start a new thread focusing on this issue) I truly wonder how many people on the fence are holding off their RX-8 purchase because of these recent dynos. 30hp differential is huge when it comes to a performance oriented car. Would you have preordered at 220hp? As of this posting, 67.13%, around two-thirds have indicated they would not have preordered a $30,000, 220 hp RX-8. |
Originally posted by yawpower Take a look at the air fuel ratio. It gets progressively richer as the motor goes past 5,000 rpm. This keeps internal parts nice and cool, and keeps the stresses down on the bearings and gears. The motor is pig rich by the time it reaches 8,000 rpm. Who knows what the timing curve looks like. Mazda is simply running the engine in safe mode while all the internal parts are getting to know each other. This is a wise move for any performance car. Just imagine what the lot jockey, salesman, and test drivers will do to a performance car before it even clocks 20 miles! Don't worry, just keep driving. Paul Yaw Yaw Power Products Why cant the RX8 match the smaller capacity S2000 which puts out well over 200rwhp from only "240bhp" ? I will definatley wait a fair while till this issue gets clarified before I think about the RX8, I love the car but that is alot less power than claimed ? |
I don't know if this will help anyone, but FEED did dyno their RX8. The article didn't show any scales on their dyno results, but apparently they didn't raise any issue about a lack of HP problem. I can't read Japanese, but I wonder if that article raises any issues?
The following is the article I am referring to: http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?threadid=6259 The article says that they were able to get 12ps from an exhaust upgrade. Heck they even have pictures of their RX8 on a dyno. Magic8 Edit I just read the article more closely, they did mention 213.8 ps. I am guessing this figure was after the exhaust upgrade. The HP was mentions on the second page in the paragraph next to the dyno graph. |
Originally posted by Magic8 I just read the article more closely, they did mention 213.8 ps. I am guessing this figure was after the exhaust upgrade. The HP was mentions on the second page in the paragraph next to the dyno graph. |
201ps * 0.98632bhp/ps = 198.2503bhp
That's a bit far from 247bhp, no? My take on the whole lack of hp thing is that Mazda is running it rich on the high rpms until it's first or second scheduled maintenance, where they'll reprogram the ecu's fuel maps. It's possible they are still working on finding the optimal map, taking the break-in into consideration. Either way, the most we'll hear is that the car gains more hp the more miles you put on it. Someone should be sure to dyno before and after scheduled maintenance. My basis for this theory is Paul Yaw's findings, that it runs "pig-rich by the time it reaches 8,000 rpm." It'd be nice to dyno while tracking air flow and F/A ratio by rpm, though, just to see what the F/A maps look like. BTW, I don't actually know anything. I've been reading this board and various articles, and things seem to fit together, so I decided to put my thoughts forward. |
lol, thats a lot like me...
in another thread BOOSTD7 found out that the engine has no problem putting out the 250 in the mazda racing series. so, like he pointed out, it is not related to the engine and is in all likelyhood an ECU "problem" i think it is most likely fuel maps, like many have said |
Originally posted by P00Man lol, thats a lot like me... i think it is most likely fuel maps, like many have said thanks P00man |
i dunno what they would be exactly but from what i can gather...
they are "maps" if you would, that the ECU uses to regulate the Air/Fuel mixture in the engine which is developed to acheive a certain goal, say maximum power or maximum efficiency or what have you, which would be determined by R&D specialists and then given to the programmers to code for |
Are you sure the Star Mazda Series use the exact same configuration? Exact same intake manifold? Exact same throttle body? etc. It might be only the ECU, it might be something in addition too. We'll have to wait and see what happens. At this flow of dyno charts Mazda should answer soon
Originally posted by P00Man lol, thats a lot like me... in another thread BOOSTD7 found out that the engine has no problem putting out the 250 in the mazda racing series. so, like he pointed out, it is not related to the engine and is in all likelyhood an ECU "problem" i think it is most likely fuel maps, like many have said |
Actually, now in skeptic mode, I'm a little curious: Paul Yaw, I was wondering how you discovered it was running rich at 8000 rpms; did you measure it yourself, or did you get that information elsewhere?
Thanks. |
Originally posted by altaic Actually, now in skeptic mode, I'm a little curious: Paul Yaw, I was wondering how you discovered it was running rich at 8000 rpms; did you measure it yourself, or did you get that information elsewhere? Thanks. edit: bam, first page of this thread, second post (1stRX-8's dyno plot). A/F ratios are >13:1 after about 5.25k rpm |
Woops. It sort of got lost after reading so many posts on this subject. Thanks.
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Originally posted by RICE RACING Sounds very bad to me. Why cant the RX8 match the smaller capacity S2000 which puts out well over 200rwhp from only "240bhp" ? I will definatley wait a fair while till this issue gets clarified before I think about the RX8, I love the car but that is alot less power than claimed ? |
Originally posted by 86rx7 The s2000 uses CV joints insted of u-joints on the drive shaft, making it more efficent. |
So.... what's going on with the power issue now? Still waiting for Mazda to answer to the inquiries or just give up, believe the 247hp and brush the dyno data aside?
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Unlike you Skyline, we can enjoy our cars even if numbers don't make us the best in some category.
It will be resolved when it's resolved. Since you're not doing any detective work about this, nor do you have any vested interest, please just wait for an answer like we all are. Not like it makes a difference to you anyway. |
Unlike you Hercules, most owners and potential buyers do care about Mazda's claim since nobody should get a 215hp car when they paid for a 250hp sport car. If you really don't care, then keep dreaming~
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True.. we all care.. owners or not.. If somehow someway we were shortchanged, intentional or not, we will find out eventually. Sooner the better. I just hope for the best..
As we know, Herc has a way of making things sound snappish, I'm sure he didnt mean it.. We love him that way :D I promised myself not to get in this thread, but I couldnt resist. I just want a peaceful resolution to this issue, not petty lashing at each other. |
Hey, if it's below their published specs then I know I'll be compensated for it in some way.. so I'm not worrying terribly.
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Mazda's current stance on hp issue
Sorry if someone else has posted something similar. I have been out of town at a family members funeral.
I emailed Mazda last week and they replied with the following... Thank you for contacting Mazda North American Operations. I appreciate the opportunity to respond to you. In regards to your question on the horsepower in the RX8, Mazda is aware of what has been posted on the RX-8 Forum and we are currently looking into the matter. However, we stand by the current stated power levels: 247hp for the manual transmission cars and 207hp for the automatic cars. I asked for further explaination but did not receive any. |
Not to ask a stupid question (heck, all my questions seem stupid I guess)- but exaclty who has contacted Mazda about this? And who in the Mazda USA organization did they contact? Just curious.
Also, did the people running the dyno verify that the throttle was reaching WOT? I hear the floor mats ride up sometimes.:p |
Originally posted by Hercules Hey, if it's below their published specs then I know I'll be compensated for it in some way.. so I'm not worrying terribly. *Judging by your posts, it seems that you don't care about the power loss since the car is fun to drive. This sit back and relax attitude won't motivate Mazda to solve any problems anytime soon. I assume you paid the full MSRP for your RX-8, so like everyone else, you deserve what was promised to you by a manufacturer. No matter how cool you try to act and how you try to justify 'I don't need all 250hp'; it's not a matter of what you are willing to live for, it's about what was promised to you and the failure to deliver on that promise. |
Originally posted by BRealistic Not to ask a stupid question (heck, all my questions seem stupid I guess)- but exaclty who has contacted Mazda about this? And who in the Mazda USA organization did they contact? Just curious. Also, did the people running the dyno verify that the throttle was reaching WOT? I hear the floor mats ride up sometimes.:p |
For a little perspective:
The WRX is rated at 227, puts down ~160-170 to the wheel, 60-70 hp loss. We have AWD to deal with, so ~25% loss makes sense for us. Haven't seen a 2WD manual with more than 15% loss. A/F stock for the WRX was below 10:1! Tuned, it sits around 11:1. With water injection, we barely hit 12.5:1. Yea, I know completely different setups, but food for thought. Our ECU is very adaptive with the ignition timing and A/F - After an ECU reset, letting the car run at mild load around 4000 rpm for 20 seconds will change the dyno results by 10 hp. The ECU has an ignition multplier it uses to do crude tuning (in addition to fine tuning by rpm). Jsut letting the ECU change that multiplier under light load for a short time gives 10 hp. There are also high and low detonation fuel maps. changing from one to another changes A/F by about a point (10:1 to 11:1). Tom |
This may be nothing and almost certainly was taken into account when the various cars were dynoed but on page 5-4 of the owners' manual it states:
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