Vince,

Where can I download the second run file. I need to see the
uncorrected numbers.

I'll email them to you.

Vince

Please send it to Nashua_Night_Hawk@yahoo.com

Thanks.

Looking at the dyno closely, thre is 10 lbsft drops at 6400rpms and another 10 lbsft 7400 rpms.


Why there is such restriction? is it no enouh intake charge?

Can one tune the intake to make the curve flat and peak 125 lbft at 7500rpms?

Nashua

Sent.

Vince

Not a restriction, just a set of ports opening causing a change of airflow. It's a good thing.

Vince

can someone explain why the data uses 7600 rpm?

the red line goes to almost 200 at higher rpm, why's max hp 187?
torque is going down on the chart at 7600 rpm also, why pick that point?
i guess my question is how to interprate the chart

There is a clear evidence that that timing is being pulled back at the higher rpms (jaggieness in the curve). That is due to detonations and low octane. Also, the A/F is richer than that on my CLS. So, lack of more O2.

SAE correction is 1.0 or 1.01.. It was hi temp, low Humidity and the Atom Presurre at 29.8-29.9"

I think with Higher octance and colder weather.. the RX-8 can gain as much 10 WHP.

Nashua.

Guys,
Through some research and talking to a few folks, I can speculate with high degree of certainty, that the RX-8 is pulling back some timing and adding fuel up high, to protect the engine while on a chassis dyno. This among other things. If my understanding of the matter is correct, the sophisticated 32-bit ECU collects data from several inputs to implement the operational fuel and timing maps. It seems that some of the inputs that the ECU is receiving, while on a dyno, is telling it something is not absolutely correct, and that it should use, what I would term, safe maps.

I have not been able to absolutely confirm all of this information, but it seems to be a very plausible explanation for the descripency between 1/4 times and dyno results.

Also, and very important to this discussion, should be the proper SAE correction factors. As Nashua is properly trying to do above. I've seen quite few dyno plots with correction factors all over the place, if any at all.

The search continues.....

-Bern

Nashua, the jaggedness cannot be detonation, detonations + rotary = no more rotary, and wankels are highly detonation resistant, it is more likley misfire. Alsoi agree with the explanation of the cpu not liking the dyno, the maps are definatly "safe" maps based on the afr's, someone should check the ignition timming while on the dyno somehow.

If the ECU only goes rich on a dyno, then why do non dyno'd cars have that sooty exhaust (which stains everything instantly- oops, won't be sticking my finger in tailpipes again)?

The little jaggies on the dyno plot are because of the longer time spent in the zone allowing for more samples.

Vince

I think you may be on to something here. When driving my car (800 miles) in 1st or 2nd to the redline, I feel (I know "butt dyno")a definite kick about 6250 rpm and another slightly sofet kicj around 7500 rpm, but it's definitely there. It's almost scarey at first, like a small turbo kick but absolutely controllable.:D

The guessing continues...

Vince

No guessing. Berny is correct...

These cars can't be dynoed. and obtain the same results as street driving (with the US ECU program)


See me at SevenStock for info on why :D Here's a hint though, the federal government is to blame

You don't have to rely totally on a butt dyno. I've hand timed my car from 5k-7k and 7k-9k on the tach in second gear. The car is always about a tenth slower in the RPM higher range. I too feel the kick, but in realilty it's following a decrease in acceleration just prior to the kick.

Another thing I've notice is that the digital speed display has a lot of latency in it. If you hand time acceleration runs vs. the equivalent tach reading rather than speed display you get a better answer. Hand timing is very innacurate from a standing start becuase you don't know when the car starts moving vs. clutch release and traction is the primary influence. It's much better at rolling starts (+/-.1sec). My car is doing consistent 5-60 runs in 7.3 sec which is better than C&D @7.5. Also 70-90 in third comes much quicker than the 4.8 sec that R&T reported.

Try it yourself.

Also, I think heat has been to little talked about as a reason for performance degradation. A car that is rated at 238hp at 75F will only put out 229hp at 95F just because of changes in air density. I'm noticing that performance is getting alot better as the temperatures drop which is consistent with my other cars as well.

How about a link to the information?

Thanks in advance,

Vince

here ya go:
sevenstock.org

Seriously: I can't post something up yet to rotarynews.com as proof... But: re-read berny's post. Emphysis on correction factors, and with an addition of EGT readings.

Rotarynews.com
 

Thank you. That is what I was waiting to hear. Issue resolved.

Now lets pick up and move on.....and enjoy driving A GREAT CAR (if you've got one)


Is this a haiku?

cool autumn air
makes my RX-8
go faster

:D

Re: Rotarynews.com
 

No, a haiku must have 5-7-5 syllables. Try this one:

Mazda RX-8:
Dyno says it is a dog,
but we know better.

:D

This sounds like bullshit to me.

Let me get this straight. Someone's brother Billie-Bob gets some unverifiable information from someone they can't mention and we are supposed to take this as gospel and move on.

Show me the proof or shut the f**k up until you have it.

If you have good information it is much appreciated (and if what was in Bern's post is verifiable it too is much appreciated). If you can't verify what you post it gets put in and then lost in crap fact hell.

So the posts from Bern and Rotarynews are in the bullshit pile until they prove it otherwise.

YMMV!

Vince

What reasons could you possibly have to doubt what Bern and Rotarynews are posting. What would they gain from lying here nothing. Some people don't have the need to post wild theories just for fun.

Well, I have to agree that its a little suspect. I want to believe rotarynews.com et al, but ... there is no actual information given. I'd really like to know whats going on since I am looking at the RX8 as a possible new car and the dyno results combined with MPG issues are a little disheartening. So ...

Is there any information you can release on this site, or to those of us interested by any means (other than an event we probably cannot attend) ?

Thanks.

Dave

PS. Any signs of weapons of mass destruction in the dyno plots :)

BEAUTIFUL!! :cool:
My ikku.
Yellow RX-8:
in the Wind
my yellow eight
like a flower.

btw:
My RX-8 is the standard type and that Power is 210ps.
I found out Dyno data about the standard type from some Japanese site.

Standard type
Max Power......127.0 kW (172.7 PS) / 8380 rpm
Max Torque....172.5 N�EM (17.6 kg�Em) / 5700 rpm
This car is having the limiter cut. An original(Normal) rev limit is 7.500 rpm.

tkanks
EAST MOON

I'm confused by this now. If the RX8 can't be dynoed, then how come Mazda used the dyno to determine the horsepower? And wouldn't it pretty much be the only car out there that can't be dynoed (which makes it seem less likely)?

other cars out there
 

how many 'other cars out there' have a Rotary engine?

SCC did a recent comparison between some cars and they werent able to dyno the M3 or the Porsche, apparently the M3 knew it wasnt moving so cut power and the Porsche LSD didnt like being dynoed. Im sure there are many other newer cars that cant be dynoed.

RX8 possibly cutting power above 6k (this is where the M3 cut power also and it revs to 8) is quite possible

-Chris

Manufacturers don't use chassis dynos measuring rear wheel hp - they use engine dynos, where the engine by itself (well, with the intake, exhaust, and electrical/ECU systems as used in the vehicle) is mounted on a brake dyno (rather than an inertial dyno like the dynojet etc. chassis dynos) and hp is measured at the flywheel. They actually measure the crank hp, rather than back-calculating it by estimating drivetrain losses. So the manufacturer's hp ratings are generated by an entirely different method to what any of us can do (unless you want to pull the engine, exhaust, intake, ECU, etc. out of your car...). Necessarily, then, the engine brake dynos would not be receiving inputs from ABS/TC/DSC sensors - the manufacturers would have those disabled.

Regards,
Gordon

I've heard that said about the M3, but there is a way it can be dynoed. I've seen the instructions online where you pull a fuse before starting the car and that disables the traction control or something so that it can be dynoed.

And the Porsche, was that the all wheel drive one? I think a vaguely remember something about that shifting power to front and back. But that's different than just rwd.

So Mazda had to have used an engine dyno to recalculate the new HP rating also, right? That seems like too much work to pull the entire engine, etc out of the 11 or so cars that they said they dynoed to get the new HP and then put them back in. I guess some of the engineers/techs have to earn their paychecks:p

But what if we take a base model with no tc or dsc, and assume no tire slip (which should not happen) or use a dynopack dyno instead of dynojet which would eliminate any tire slippage, shouldn't the results be similar to brake dyno results except for drivetrain loss? And I would guess that in these modern automobile times, drivetrain loss is something that manufacturers try to keep down and therefore should be similar when comparing to other vehicles with similar drivetrain layouts (ie rwd, fwd, or awd).

Most of this is just speculation based on a rumor so far (a very shaky rumor).

Just a heads up before we start getting excited.

Vince

On the dyno issue, one should research all of the parameters and sensors, that the 8 uses to calculate it's operational fuel and timing maps. This issue holds a key to the whole dyno vs. road thing. Airflow management through the engine compartment, the airtemp directly in the the intake, and front wheel motion also play parts.... of course these are my own "WILD-ASS-SHOOT-IN-DARK-THE-WORLD-MAY-NEVER-KNOW" speculations... or maybe not!


Vince,
I'm sure Billie-Bob, his brother, and their friends, are all cool and all, but they were not the ones to tell or show me a "gosh darn" thing! My info was sourced straight from one of the top horse's mouths, at the place it matters most. (BTW, you don't have to believe that either) So, take what I/we say for what you will, and just know that we can not divulge the rest! I don't why you would even think that I would be here to try to BS you guys. What do I have to gain? Believe me, if I was BS'ing, I have a lot better stories than the ones I've told...

Let's say I have the full story, and I posted here, why would anyone here believe me.. Do you think that anyone at Mazda would be crazy enough to hand me stacks of reports and research, to back my story, and say, "go ahead.. post it on the forum.. they have right to know" na-ha.. never!

We are trying hard here guys, but we really can not give out names and or full details on this subject...... yet! What we have been told/shown, has been in strict confidence and we just can't say!! No matter how many bad names and/or BS flags you raise! It's up to each one to decide what to do with the info we post. I respect "compaddict's" skeptsism, as he doesn't know me or the people I speak of, he decided to throw it all on the BS pile, I'm cool with that!

The worst part... we may never be able to tell the whole story! sigh...... :(

As far as SevenStock, I hope you all can come and visit with us. I won't be speaking on this subject at all, but Dan sure seems to think he can ;)

No more speaky from me on this subject, 'til I scan and format the reams of reports, photos and research I have... but wait, those might be fake too.... it never ends! :D


Cheers,

-Bern

Bern,
Many of us appreciate the detective work you're doing. Keep us posted.

"Can't say" strikes me as a bit odd.
IF Mazda had some good news then I am puzzled why they would not want it shared. Or at the minimum make their own announcement.
If there were some solid reason that the cars do not perform on a dyno in the sme fashion as they do on a road, what would it cost Mazda to explain it, in a clear and provable manner?

Maybe you know something.
Maybe there ARE aliens in Area51.

But the fact that they have limited the buy-back offer to Oct. 1 simply reinforces the impressions as they are now, that the car is down on power, and they do not have a solution.

Think about it. They do not want people to sell back the cars. They do not make money that way.

If they felt they were close to a solution they would make the time on the buy back longer, so as to give them time to do the work, and solve the problem and satisfy us.

In the meantime, here's another log on the fire:

3 fellows on the Canadian east coast did a dyno test tonight.

See this thread page:
http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.p...5&pagenumber=2

Best was 168hp, and one, with lower mileage, made 158hp

ouch

Bern,

Thanks for the work but if you can't prove it factual it does nothing but add to the rumor and speculation mill.

The other (and first that I remember) unofficial official word from MNAO through a third party was why our cars were being delayed at port. It was something about our cars being individually hand inspected to make sure they were perfect and that was all.

As it turns out they were delayed because of emissions but that's all we really know. As it turns out the one bit of unofficial official information that we got from MNAO was a lie.

My hope is that one day MNAO might tell us what they know instead of telling us in effect nothing.

I would love to go to SevenStock but I'm about 650 miles away...

Keep up the work!

Vince

Up here in Canada they were telling us that they wanted to get one to each dealer to do a simultaneous release.

That also turned out to be untrue.

Guys,
Here is the rub. I never said that what I have found out is good or bad news . I have also never said that Mazda has or will have any further good or bad news on this topic. I've never denied or even implied that there is no power loss in the RX-8. It seems that some of you guys think I'm defending Mazda and denying the power loss issue... not at all. Maybe that's why I just can't say! What I was told was not for me to realease or quote. I just figured I'd share what I could. The difference I speak of, between road and dyno performance, I'm sure is not major, just that there is some.

BTW, I do know something, there are no aliens or the missing RX-8's HP at AREA-51 !....But they might be hiding in the ECU!


Vince, again I get the feeling here that even if Mazda invited you to all of it's secret test and showed you facts, you would still doubt. Nothing like a client scorned! I feel and respect your feelings, but I can only say what I can say..... btw, I'm sure Mazda wants me to shut-up too!!!


I'm glad I wasn't the one who said it (I think). Shoot, we also reported/quoted a Mazda VP, that the car would be dyno'ing at 200+ rwhp. We put out what we hear and are told, and let you guys know. That's it... if we didn't, and had to wait for Mazda to give us test reports from 3rd party independent labs and testers, we would never be able to say or report anything.


We have guys coming from 1500+ miles away.. from Canada to Florida.. they're coming.. In reality, we have people flying in from as far Europe and Australia. What a better place to come and get lied too... ;)

Appreciate everyones comments.. both positive and negative!

Regards,

-Bern

BERN
Here in australia at least mazda australia was up front and did not try and be deceptive re power outputs , we were told one week prior to delivery that power outputs have been re adjusted to 177kw and 211nm from the original advertised and quoted 184kw and216nm .

Mazda has lost a lot of credibility amongst its most faithful buyers being the rotary enthusuists and the preorder customers, there are no real excuses for outright deceipt in quoting higher figures in order to achieve better sales .

Bern,

I'm just stating the facts and by doing that I seem like I don't trust Mazda when shown facts?

Show me some facts and I will trust them.

Spew what sounds like bullshit and come up with what sounds again like bullshit excuses why you can't back up most anything you say and guess what..

You go to the bullshit till proven otherwise pile.

Vince

Bern,
Thanks for all that you do.
Mazda worldwide and MNAO have a lot of adjustments that ought to be made but I'm keeping faith.
Some folks with legitamite complaints could stand to be a little less anxious.:)

vince
relax he just explained why he can't give info yet
Its just a matter of time before answers come

Lighten Up
 

All you guys calling BS should step back and see the situation. Bern is a member of the media who is getting information from someone in Mazda who is not authorized to release it. If he comes out and says "Joe Bloggs in Mazda R&D told me...", then poor Mr. Bloggs will have a rather sudden end to his career. Bern is just protecting his sources.

You can still be skeptical but don't flame the guy for trying to get information out to the forum. Every "fact" on this forum is subject to the credibility of the provider. From what I've read from the Rotary News guys, they deserve the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise in my mind.

Right. ALSO....remember all the members saying.." Those 1/4 mile times can't be believed without proof. I want TIMESLIPS....."

Well ....Mazda gave us timeslips. Actual timeslips. They are real and they dont lie. Who did Mazda give the Timeslips to....? RotaryNews.

Thats why I will believe Bern.

GYRO
Had those time slips been on an official MAZDA letter head they would have had far greater credibility than a slip of paper with a few figures on them , dont always believe what you see or read.

Dont get me wrong i am not a conspiracy theorist or un believer but surely the time slips if official could have been presented in a more credible manner.

Man, I would have thought scanned time-slips from a racetrack would be a lot more credible than "mazda letterhead paper" "saying" what the times were... That's what timeslips look like...

Maybe if they were notarized everybody would have been happy?

Then all the doubters and naysayers would be saying that the notary was an employee of Mazda. There is no winning to some of these people. Damned if you do - Damned if you don't. I wish they would all give it a rest.

Hey I want to believe Bern and I really do potentially appreciate the information..

But the way it was presented is suspect and also because of the lack of forthrightness from Mazda combined with a few lies from Mazda as well makes the information questionable.

Also I really don't think MNAO is all that capable of a good conspiracy!

Vince

Vince:
It's fine that you, or anyone else on this forum, do not believe me. I'm not trying to force or push anything. I just present what I do, and it's up to everyone on this forum to make up their own minds. You have raised the BS flag and it's been noted and aknowledged. About my information being suspect, again fine, I can deal with that. But, I do feel that it's not fair that you tell me that I shouldn't post my input or information here (in not such a nice manner, I might add).


If you only knew how right his statement was... you wouldn't believe it. ;)


Apologies to the rest of the forum folks, it really wasn't my intention to get this thing so off topic.. I will try to not comment on this topic anymore, unless it's on the actual dyno topic.

Thanks again,

-Bern

Same here!

Vince

Hey Bern,

Who cares what Vince thinks? Hell, who cares what I think? No one. Anyway, I appreciate you posting Mazda's 1/4 mile times for the 8. I wish this situation wasn't so cryptic, I agree with the others on that point, Mazda should come clean.