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Originally Posted by rxrocks
(Post 3223926)
Dear nycgps,
Thank you very much for your kind words towards me in your response to my post. I relished every one of them. It seems that, even in this age of enlightenment, there are still ignoramuses and govt. “conspiracy” believers (yes. I noticed some of that in your more than 11,000 posts on this forum) such as yourself spreading misinformation. Despite my direct links to statements by the major oil makers and Mazda’s cautionary note pertaining to ’09 RX 8s, you continue your tirade against anyone you disagree with. You have no documentation from either Mazda or the oil makers substantiating your claims. And that stupid little poster you posted… give me brake, please, huh? Bye bye! :wavey: You know you got nothing to back yourself up other than "He said/She said/Someone said/The Internet saids/My Dog saids/etc" if Synthetic is so bad, You still havent explain why MAZDA JAPAN SELLS FULL SYNTHETIC OIL to Rotary Engine owners So in the end, you are nothing but just full of shit. I think noobs like you missed out a big discussion we had about oil just maybe a week or 2 ago. We discuss friendly, with proofs and data. unlike you, you got nothing. nada, ZERO. all you got was crap. As you can see, ASH knows where I came from. He was right about the whole issue. I thought it was ok. but then the more research I did about this engine and oil in general. the more I feel that ASH was right about this whole issue. btw, I owe you an apology ASH :( btw : http://www.royalpurple.com/faqs-rotary.html Rotary Engine FAQs: Can Royal Purple Motor Oil be used in a rotary engine? Yes. A rotary engine is a modified four-cycle engine that recommends the use of an API-licensed motor oil for street applications. More information and FAQs on lubrication of rotary engines. In a rotary engine, the oil lubricates the eccentric shaft bearings, thrust needle bearings and rotor bearings (similar to a crank and rod bearing of a piston engine). It also is injected into the combustion chambers to lubricate the apex seals, corner seals, and side seals, all of which helps to create the sealing mechanism (the equivalent job of the piston rings). Royal Purple provides outstanding protection for the e-shaft, rotor bearings and thrust bearings and is suitable for the oil injection system as it has proven to run cleaner than other oils and is an excellent choice for rotary apex seals, corner seals and side seals. Mazda makes a statement in the Owner’s Manual not to use synthetic oils in a rotary engine, why do you say that it is OK? Royal Purple has performed seal compatibility testing on the components used in a rotary with excellent results — including older rotary engine seals dating back to the Cosmo. Royal Purple’s Technical Services Manager David Canitz (who has been an owner and racer of rotary engine cars using synthetic motor oils since 1985 with excellent results) has been trying to find an answer to this Mazda statement for the last 18 years. In the early development of synthetic oils decades ago, there were purportedly some seal compatibility issues. Today’s synthetic oils do not have the compatibility issues of the old oils. There is no substantiated evidence of seal compatibility issues with Royal Purple. Here are some facts: * The Mazda Factory racing departments recommend and use ‘synthetic’ oils including the winning 1991 Leman’s 20-G 4 rotor Mazda 787B. * MazdaComp USA printed manual (now Mazdaspeed) recommends the use of synthetic oils for racing conditions. * Royal Purple Motor Oils have been used in rotary engines (both race and street) for 10+ years with excellent results. * Royal Purple Motor Oil is compatible with the bearing material, sealing elastomers and combustion seals used in a rotary engine. I heard that synthetic oil doesn’t burn like mineral based oils and will coat the inside of the engine with deposits. Is this true? If this was a problem with synthetic motor oils in general, then all internal combustion engines using a ‘synthetic’ would experience increased deposits on internal surfaces. The opposite is actually the norm. Conventional four-cycle motor oils will typically leave deposits of carbon and ash when injected into the rotary apex seal, corner seal and side seal areas. Royal Purple’s motor oil burns cleaner due to its synthetic base stock being free of contamination and the fact that many of its additives are ‘ashless’. This may not be true for all synthetics but Royal Purple has been proven to work extremely well in rotary engines. Royal Purple’s formulation of synthetic hydrocarbon motor oil burns at the nominal combustion temperatures experienced in both street and racing applications, whether normally aspirated, turbocharged or supercharged. (500 – 1700%°F idle to race rpms typical combustion temps) Will the synthetic oil affect the oil seals? No. Royal Purple’s motor oil is fully compatible with the elastomers found in rotary engines as well as more conventional piston engines. The oil seals, housing seals and other elastomers used in rotary engines typically consist of Buna N, Nitriles, Neoprene or Viton materials, which are also commonly found in piston engine cars. I hear that synthetic is ‘thinner or lighter’ oil. Is there a greater possibility that the oil will leak between the seals? No. If an engine’s sealing surfaces are in good condition, synthetic oil should not cause any leakage. However, if an engine has marginal seals, there is a 50/50 chance the seals will leak. A synthetic motor oil is going to have similar viscosity to that of a conventional motor oil – except at extreme temperatures. Due to a flatter viscosity curve, at low temperatures it will not thicken as much (easier winter cranking) and will not thin out as quickly at higher operating temperatures (better oil film at higher rpm). Should I go longer or shorter between oil changes? Royal Purple recommends that the maximum oil drain / filter change interval listed in the Owner’s Manual be followed while under warranty (new RX8). For FA, FB, FC, FC Turbos and FD rotaries, extending drain intervals from two- to five-fold is possible if desired. Since the rotary engine injects oil through the use of a metered oil pump, either adding oil into the carb base plate air / fuel mixture or directly injecting oil into the rotor housing, rotary engines will consume oil of one quart per 1000 – 3000 miles. It is important to maintain the proper crankcase oil level in your rotary engine if you decide to extend oil drain intervals. If I pre-mix my fuel for the rotary engine, do I use the same ratio as with mineral based oils? Does it burn at the same rate? In an ideal world, the rotary engine metered oil pump should inject an ashless oil designed to burn in the combustion chamber and use a four-cycle oil in the crankcase for the eccentric shaft, rotor bearings and thrust bearings. For the street, Mazda simplified the OE system to use just one oil, that being a typical four-cycle oil for both the e-shaft as well as the combustion chamber. Royal Purple recommends using our standard 2-Cycle TCW III if the metered oil pump is still enabled. The two-cycle oil being added to the fuel tank is in addition to what Mazda designed to inject and acts as a supplement or insurance. Depending upon which engine, the level of modifications (street port, Bridgeport, peripheral port, nitrous turbocharged) and application, the typical mix ratio could vary from 200:1 to 800:1. For a pure racing application where the metered oil pump has been disabled or removed, again based on the actual engine and modification level, the ratio could vary from 150:1 to 600:1. For this application, we recommend our 2-Cycle TCW III Racing or the standard 2-Cycle TCW III. A stock FD twin turbo 13B with the MOP oil injection system can typically use about one quart per 1500 miles under hard street driving. If this vehicle is getting 15 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio is 400:1. If the oil consumption on this vehicle reduces to 1 quart per 2500 miles and fuel efficiency increases to 20 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio increases to 600:1. The stock metering oil pump is a great system as it varies with throttle position (load on the engine). Pre-mixing has to be calculated for the ‘worst case’ that will be seen by the engine for that fuel load. Under racing conditions, that’s wide open throttle at racing rpms. This means that at idle, the ratio may be slightly fat (rich). With over 11,000 posts, this tells me that perhaps you should consider getting a life outside the forum, perhaps a knitting club. That might be more therapeutic for you. Come back when you have an answer (Guess I will never see you again ?) |
Originally Posted by rxrocks
(Post 3223926)
BLAH BLAH BLAH....................BLAH
http://www.royalpurple.com/faqs-rotary.html edit: damn nycgps posted it. oh well. just in case you missed it. |
rxrocks
You come here, 5 years late into the conversation, spouting the same fanboi ignorant retorts that everyone else has said, only... 5 YEARS AGO. Mazda gave you the company line. Not an educated response, they gave you the safe one. Castrol, Mobil1, etc... told you to follow what Mazda said. NOT because they beleive in it, but because they play it safe, especially Mobil doesnt want to get sued again. So yes, nycgps is extreme we admit it :) but you are a waste of our screen time, we dont want your uneducated replies. Btw, Mazda has to, by LAW, warranty the Catalytic converter for about 125000km or 100000miles in the USA I think. Same in Canada. Of COURSE they want to protect your CAT. They don't want to have to pay for new CATS every year (like they have been). They'd rather your engine wear down and break just after full warranty. They'll make their money back somehow anyways, by charging for plugs and wires and coils, etc... Besides, when engines go poof, they don't always stop working, many times they just have less power and Mr and Ms. ordinary Joe/Jane wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Simply put, your wrong. And if you really have read this thread for years and still believe what you are shoveling... its disturbing. They aren't in it for anything else BUT the money. Remember that. |
Originally Posted by ASH8
(Post 3224021)
I would be directing questions to the guys here who have actually rebuilt rotaries and the RENESIS, which actually has the exact same rotor and stationary gear bearings and clearances as the 1985 FC RX-7.
None of these guys like the 5W20 oils as they have witnessed and shown (pics) of Stationary Gear Bearings that are worn down to the copper at 50K miles, once unheard of until now with the use of low weight engine oils...which have to be a semi-synthetic blend to get that low. When all these engines were failing in Nevada and other Hot areas a 3-4 years ago, I said it is the engine oil, I got flamed..even by my mate nygps. Once the guys doing the rebuilds had seen the bearings, they agreed that a 5W20 does not cut it. Rotaries are a lot different to "Bangers" as you get oil dilution far quicker from fuel wash, the engine oil may be fine when new, but after a few thousand miles it is watery crap. You have to remember "most" RX-8 owners are not 'enthusiasts' and don't do their own oil changes before the scheduled or recommended service intervals. The US is the only market that stipulates a 5W20 only oil, the only reason is fuel economy. Most other markets say a 5W30, as does Australia, BUT, in the Owners manual it says you can use any oil weight range depending on your climate. Personally, I would much rather see you guys change your oil more frequently and use a higher weight oil, as even after 2K miles your oil is not at the original oil weight. If you insist on using a 5W20, replace oil more frequently. Don't forget you are also leaving behind about 35% of OLD Oil in your oil coolers and lines. If you want to use Dino (like me) use a 10 or 15W40., even 20W50. (Particularly High Milers) Semi-Synthetic use 5W30 as a minimum. Fully Synthetic ( I am not fan of 0W weight oils because of additives and cost), I would again prefer more frequent changes. Don't forget all the metal particles floating around that the Oil Filter does not catch, and it is HEAPS, use an oil filter or sump plug magnet as Mazda reintroduce their internal sump magnet in Series II RX-8's, the same magnet used in the 1985 FC RX-7. 2004-08 RX-8's have NO magnetic metal catcher at all. So again the longer you leave your oil in the sump (miles) the more Metal moving through engine. I know some of you won't like what I say, and naturally if you live in a Freezing cold/Snow/Ice climate ( and use your RX-8) you have to think of your minimum oil weight requirements. Virtually ALL oil weights will work OK at -30 below anyway. |
Originally Posted by 05rex8
(Post 3224064)
oh yeah...here is some more reading for you
http://www.royalpurple.com/faqs-rotary.html edit: damn nycgps posted it. oh well. just in case you missed it. damn, this is another +1 to post count (cuz some smarty thought it takes a lot of time to get it up to 11K post rofl)
Originally Posted by SpIcEz
(Post 3224075)
rxrocks
You come here, 5 years late into the conversation, spouting the same fanboi ignorant retorts that everyone else has said, only... 5 YEARS AGO. Mazda gave you the company line. Not an educated response, they gave you the safe one. Castrol, Mobil1, etc... told you to follow what Mazda said. NOT because they beleive in it, but because they play it safe, especially Mobil doesnt want to get sued again. So yes, nycgps is extreme we admit it :) but you are a waste of our screen time, we dont want your uneducated replies. Btw, Mazda has to, by LAW, warranty the Catalytic converter for about 125000km or 100000miles in the USA I think. Same in Canada. Of COURSE they want to protect your CAT. They don't want to have to pay for new CATS every year (like they have been). They'd rather your engine wear down and break just after full warranty. They'll make their money back somehow anyways, by charging for plugs and wires and coils, etc... Besides, when engines go poof, they don't always stop working, many times they just have less power and Mr and Ms. ordinary Joe/Jane wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Simply put, your wrong. And if you really have read this thread for years and still believe what you are shoveling... its disturbing. They aren't in it for anything else BUT the money. Remember that. Synthetic oil has nothing to do with CAT life, short-lived CAT converter has been a problem with Rotary engine since Rx-7 days. Just think of it, FC has Pre-CAT before the Main converter, and the main converter size is like 2x of RX-8s. and it still died. |
Originally Posted by nycgps
(Post 3224096)
n00b !!!! :lol:
damn, this is another +1 to post count (cuz some smarty thought it takes a lot of time to get it up to 11K post rofl) I would have deleted it, but hey, it's a +1 post count! (free post, yet again) |
I slapped some SCSI drive magnets on my K&N after my break-in oil change and I will cut that bish this weekend to see whats up.
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Originally Posted by nycgps
(Post 3224080)
Im thinking maybe I should put a piece of magnet on top of my oil filter. that should be able to suck some of the bad stuff. no ?
It really is a simple "mod" to do, honestly EVERY S1 owner should do it. Your engine will LUV YA for it. I could not believe the amount of fine metal inside my oil filter when I cut it open, (only 1200 miles for memory) and I have the internal one in the sump pan also. It was an ultra fine metal black/grey paste :SHOCKED: Just like the trans and diff magnet drain plugs. Now OFF to your Room you naughty nygps!!:evil_laug Edit:...BTW: Apology accepted...HE HE, And HELL Ease off I AM the Resident 'Know ALL' **** Smart ASS**** and Superior** if you had not already heard.. In the END no one is 100% correct, would be a boring world if it was, all anyone can go by is age and experience...FART!! |
Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
(Post 3224053)
In my opinion (which doesn't really mean shit), It's a combination of many things. Using Synthetic oils is not enough, running heavier oil is not enough, and timely oil changes is not enough.
But hopefully my many magnets, GC 0W-30, 3k max out OIC's (as always), Oil Cooler vent mod, Oil testing (which may be useless from what I have read lately but we shall see), and constant monitoring and changing my plan as needed will help my engine last and perform flawlessly. The biggest thing I want to know is just how m oil is standing up to the harsh rotary environment. |
When you all refer to a magnet in the oil sump, are you referring to a magnetic drain plug like the transmission plug? Where do you order one for the 8? I just ordered a new one from Mazdamatrix, but it isn't magnetic.
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Originally Posted by Spirograph
(Post 3224324)
When you all refer to a magnet in the oil sump, are you referring to a magnetic drain plug like the transmission plug? Where do you order one for the 8? I just ordered a new one from Mazdamatrix, but it isn't magnetic.
Series 1's have no factory magnets for the engine anywhere... So you have two locations or areas to install a magnet.. You can order on-line a sump drain plug that has a magnet inside, works the same principal as your Diff and Transmission drain plug which has a magnet inside it...sorry, I don't know the company who sells them, but do a search here, or Google. The other one and IMO a better method is to either buy a ready made magnet designed to go on the outside of your oil filter's tin case. Or, some guys use PC Hard drive magnets which are very strong and put them on the oil filter...most of these magnets are flat, so you might have to 'curve' them for a neat fit. DON'T use fridge type magnets, and don't install an external sump pan magnet because you cant collect the waste metal and if it falls of or you move it, you let go all that metal. The beauty with the Oil Filter magnet is that you only remove it when you change your filter and the metal is kept inside the old filter. You can buy the Oil Filter Magnets from www.filtermag.com the Series I RX-8 is either the SS250 or Stronger Magnet HP250, for Series II RX-8 you can ONLY use the SS250...Both are good, but I would go for the stronger HP250 if you have a Series I. |
Thanks, I'm going to start doing this on my '04. But why not use a fridge magnet? I have a fridge magnet that's very strong, what's the difference between that and a magnet from a SCSI drive? Is a SCSI magnet rare earth neodymium like in Grado cans or something?
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The filtermag ones like hard drives are the rare earth neodymium.
I really meant the black thin flat "synthetic" type of card or poster magnets. You need something that is strong ,reliable and lasting. |
I just gonna go ask my father for some strong ass magnet. He sells it at his place
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http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D66SH
get a 10 pack, If you are looking for a powerful magnet to put in your oil pan or attach to an oil filter, this is the magnet you need. The D66SH cylinders are made with grade N42SH (SH = Super High Temperature) material. The SH material means that the magnets can be heated to 300° F without any loss of magnetic strength, unlike standard neodymium magnets that begin to lose strength at 175° F. Suitable for many high temperature applications so whoever been doing the standard magnets, say bye bye to all the things you been collecting on to it in to your engine i have 8 left on my desk if anyone wants a few, just stop buy, |
oh thats pretty good price.
hmm ... should I get 10 hmm ... but I dont need that many ... let me ask my father. |
just stick them all over the oil filter lol
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Thanks for the link, Ferg.
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Originally Posted by rxrocks
(Post 3222967)
I have followed this thread for years.
... Why no synthetic? Because it may not burn off entirely during combustion, and cause fouling of the cat converter ... If you look at the page in your owner's manual, I currently have a '09, it states not to use synthetic. The '09 manual also states that the use of synthetics can cause starting performance problems. I have not asked Mazda NA why, 'cause I won't use synthetics until allowed to do so by Mazda in writing. Again, despite earlier problems with the Renesis engine, the oil injection system was designed to work best with 5W-20. Oil injection is a somewhat imprecise program, based in part on what you are asking your engine to do when your foot is on the gas, and when it’s off the gas. It’s one thing for the injection system to deal with just one specified factory weight oil, let alone all the other concoctions out there, so why not work with what Mazda suggests you to do so. I personally wonder how many engines were screwed up by using other than recommended oil in addition to seal issues. As further proof not to use synthetics, here are the policies from the leading oil manufactures relayed to Mazda rotary engines and synthetic oil.... Enjoy your car! |
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=BY042SH
These are the Magnets that filtermag uses, they line up the magnetic strips (2x5) and then mount them in a housing, so I doubt FM would use inferior Magnets.... |
yeah that will work but just one of the magnets i got will work better on a oil filter, thats better for oil pans, i end up putting all 10 on the filter so it acts like one big magnet, i say 2000 miles more ill take the filter apart to see how well it did, photos coming for all who wants to see
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Never thought about the temperature affecting the magnets. Not sure about the material used but with the SCSI drive magnets they literally took all my strength to separate them from a flat piece of steel mounting plate separating them where as the standard SATA drive magnets were hard to get off but not nearly as strong.
I guess I will find out when I cut my filter. |
Originally Posted by ferg
(Post 3225228)
yeah that will work but just one of the magnets i got will work better on a oil filter, thats better for oil pans, i end up putting all 10 on the filter so it acts like one big magnet, i say 2000 miles more ill take the filter apart to see how well it did, photos coming for all who wants to see
The filtermag Magnets are the same High Heat range ones shown in kjmagnets.com This is the result of engine metal from my oil filter after about 1,200 miles ONLY!! https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...5&d=1245962472 https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...6&d=1245962472 |
Originally Posted by Nubo
(Post 3224957)
I've followed it for years too, and I can't remember many arguments about synthetic hurting the cat. The volume of oil injected is so small -- typically well over 1000 miles per quart, that it doesnt' make sense that the cat couldn't handle this incidental amount of hydrocarbon compared to the exhaust of 50 gallons of gasoline burned in that interval. And synthetic or no, it will be converted to CO2 in the converter, just the same. ZDDP will eventually poison the cat, and since rotaries consume more oil than healthy piston engines that does make a difference, but that's not part of the synthetic debate.
That's your choice, but aren't you curious as to why it's presented as a "startup performance problem" rather than an "engine damage" problem?. I would suggest it has something to do with low-temperature flow rate and that all things being equal synthetic might produce a slightly lower compression during starting. And Mazda had such trouble with starting/flooding problems with this vehicle, that I speculate they will resort to anything that might influence this. Except for recommending higher viscosity! :lol: Anyway, if there were conclusive evidence that it caused permanent engine damage I think Mazda would say THAT instead of pussyfooting about with "starting performance may decrease..... blah blah blah" My car (2004 with original starter) starts up just fine after 40,000 miles of Mobil 1. I'm not worried about starting performance. Also, does yours say "do not use", or "not recommended"? There is a big difference. Any oil will vary in viscosity due to operating temperature and this effect can be more dramatic than the difference between a 5W20 and a 10W40. The oil pump needs to function in that environment. The amount injected over time is small, and viscosity is not an impediment for the injector. It's not trying to force a quart of oil through a pinhole in 5 minutes. I wonder about the opposite, seeing the number of heat-related Renesis failures in the USA where, coincidentally, 5W20 is recommended. As opposed to other hot regions in the world where 5W30 is Mazda's standard. These are certainly a response to Mazda's handling of the issue and don't add any further weight. That is, I doubt very much if the oil companies have done any substantive testing in Mazda rotary engines. They are taking CYA positions, imho. Right on! :) Quote: If you look at the page in your owner's manual, I currently have a '09, it states not to use synthetic. The '09 manual also states that the use of synthetics can cause starting performance problems. I have not asked Mazda NA why, 'cause I won't use synthetics until allowed to do so by Mazda in writing. That's your choice, but aren't you curious as to why it's presented as a "startup performance problem" rather than an "engine damage" problem?. I would suggest it has something to do with low-temperature flow rate and that all things being equal synthetic might produce a slightly lower compression during starting. And Mazda had such trouble with starting/flooding problems with this vehicle, that I speculate they will resort to anything that might influence this. Except for recommending higher viscosity! [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME~1/STEVEG~1/LOCALS~1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]Anyway, if there were conclusive evidence that it caused permanent engine damage I think Mazda would say THAT instead of pussyfooting about with "starting performance may decrease..... blah blah blah" My car (2004 with original starter) starts up just fine after 40,000 miles of Mobil 1. I'm not worried about starting performance. Also, does yours say "do not use", or "not recommended"? There is a big difference. Ans. The “09” Series 2 manual states: CAUTION ! Do not use either synthetic or semi-synthetic motor oil. Otherwise engine starting performance could worsen. Re; your mention of flooding concerns with synthetic oil. I spoke with an engineer from Pennzoil/Quaker State, now both owned by Shell Oil, about using synthetic oil in a rotary engine. He told me that he was present during a test on a dyno setup (no cat) and was amazed at how fast synthetic went through the engine vs. dino oil. He didn’t elaborate on the entire test, but, based on that observation and perhaps some others, Pennzoil/Quaker State will not endorse synthetic for use in rotaries. I did not ask him about the use of synthetic in racing, but no one, including Mazda has any concerns with synthetic in race conditions. You may be on to something when you mention that issues with compression and the use of synthetic oil could aggravate the flooding condition of the Renesis, and that may be why Mazda flat-out says not to use synthetic. Maybe the guy from Pennzoil/Quaker State was on to something. As I mentioned in my original post, I did not question Mazda NA on this warning. I just think that the people who design/manufacture and test their engine, just might, know at least a little about what they’re talking about. |
Anybody notice that this jacka** ^^ above still dodging my question.
My question was : If Synthetic is so evil and will cause "so called start up problem", why is Mazda Japan Selling FULL SYNTHETIC PAO Based Oil to RX-8 owners? Not to mention The Synthetic oil is a 0w-30. and this jacka** said that "oh our OMP was design for 5w20 blah blah blah. and dont tell me thats because its JDM and USDM, we all got the exact same Engine. btw obviously you dont know shit about oil, to get to 5w20, the oil HAS to have some "real" Synthetic in it. so your "Dino 5w20" is not even valid. you did not question Mazda NA because you're such an idiot. Man up and admit it, you dont know shit about this car, you dont know shit about oil, you dont even know what you're talking about. Thanks. You can leave now. |
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