Cooling: do's, do not's and suggestions
 

Everyone talks about it but I am having a hard time locating all this information under one thread. I admit that I have a motive aside from a general discussion of cooling as it appears I have some cooling gremlins lurking in my engine bay.

I went to lunch today and parked for about 15 min and decided to hook up the Cobb AP to check out my coolant temps and holy crap!!! The temperature outside was 89 deg F and the Cobb was showing my coolant temp at 239 deg F. :Eyecrazy: So you see my motivation. I clearly have an issue with my cooling system. I want this thread to both discuss aftermarket cooling as well as be a general all around "this is what you should do when..." thread.

Things to post in this thread (Information is gathered from all members and consolidated):

Any Custom work to improve cooling efficiency

- Intake sheilding (Greddy Turbo application): DIY: Intake Sheild
- Manually configure fans: this is for those individuals who do not have a flash tuner or any other programming device DIY: Rewire Fans

- Relocate battery: promote flow out of radiator
- Remove stock air box undertray

- Stock fan mod: the fans are ok, but they need to be better utilized. Turning them on earlier is good and works for some. For me in a hot climate and with a FI car, it didnt. I had to wire the fans in a parallel fashion using a "flex a lite" dual fan variable adjustable speed control. This way both fans activate at once and it made a profound difference (Copy Pasta...Thanks OD).

- Thermostat Upgrade: Stewart Warner barrel type 180F thermostat (modification required)

Ducting

- foam around radiator: promotes a pressure difference between the front/rear sides of the radiator that causes flow (Copy Pasta...Thanks 9k and OD)
- Filling gaps around intake tubes that exit the stock intake passage??
- plastic behind Oil Coolers: cut slits/holes to promote flow of air through the cooler DIY: Imrpove Oil Cooler Air Flow
- venting rad air out of vented hood (not sure if this was done)

Electronics (Fans, ECU setup, and Tuning)

- Flash tuner to modify fan turn on or enrichen fuel mixture to cause a cooling effect

General Suggestions/Cautions

- Max coolant temperature is 220F measured at the oem factory sensor/top radiator hose site. If you use the racing beat site that uses the heater hose add 10 degrees to your reading (Copy Pasta...Thanks OD).

- Verify the stock system (Copy Pasta...9k):

• cooling system has been properly flushed and refilled recently (2 years 30k miles)

• thermostat is opening

• fans cycle on and off at correct temps ( 2 speeds, 2 different temps)

• make sure your radiator and ac condensor are not covered in debris or heavily damaged (bent fins)

• foam needs to be in place around the radiator

• make sure your plastic underpanel is in place and tight against the radiator

Liquids (Coolant vs water)

- coolant discussion thread (searching for thread but feel free to post if you know where it is)
- Coolant recommendation: a mixture of 70% water and 30% coolant is recommended (by OD)
- Evans coolant? (Some indicate it's primary benefit is the much higher boiling point over standard coolant mixtures which will help prevent overheating situations but has a side affect of running at a higher average temperature)

Misc. Cooling Threads

- https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-trouble-shooting-95/redline86s-coolant-issues-plus-major-summer-project-218810/

Pumps (This should be easy as there is only one pump that I know of)

- Mazsport thermostat
- Mazsport Water pump
- Underdriving??? (Possible reduction in cavitation at high RPM's)

Radiator Setup (Includes any coolers)

- additional oil coolers: DIY: Additional Cooler
- additional rad
- aftermarket radiator to replace stock unit
- larger oil coolers

Verify the stock system is working properly. Holds pressure, radiator cap holds pressure, cooling system has been properly flushed and refilled recently (2 years 30k miles), thermostat is opening, fans cycle on and off at correct temps ( 2 speeds, 2 different temps) with the Cobb AP you can lower the temps to improve cooling. Make sure your radiator and ac condensor are not covered in debris or heavily damaged (bent fins). Foam needs to be in place around the radiator, you can add more to improve air flow. Buy the garage door stuff from home depot, it has adhesive on 1 side. Make sure your plastic underpanel is in place and tight against the radiator.

Once all the above checks out, the cooling system should work well for most conditions.

How to Improve cooling system:
Fans, lower cycle temps with Cobb AP.
Ducting and airflow: more foam and type up holes in underpanel. You xan also cut more holes in plastic behind the oil coolers to improve air flow. Removing the stock air intake and installing an AEM or mazdaspeed intake improves air flow out of the radiator. Relocating you battery to the trunk does the same thing.
Radiator: The BHR and mazmart radiator are bolt in upgrades that will help a little. If your radiator is original or needs to be replaced I would go with one of these upgraded units. There are much larger race radiator out there but they are not bolt in.
Waterpump and t-stat: If it ain't broke don't mess with it. Exception is underdriving the waterpump helps reduce cavitation at high rpms.
Other: if your in a hot climate and track the car, adding a small out cooler plumber into the heater core and placed on the underpanel will improve cooling. Basically its a second radiator.

Ok, so I am trying to hunt down my cooling issue but keep in mind this may or may not be a constant problem. I just recently started using the Cobb AP so who knows how long this has been happening.

Environment:
Engine: 9k miles (Mazda reman)
Mods: AEM intake, BHR midpipe, Greddy exhaust, Cobb AP, BHR ignition (not currently installed.
Current CEL's: P0076 - Intake valve Control Solenoid Circuit Low (Bank 1)

Note: not sure if this matters but I started noticing that the engine bay temperature (unmeasured) seemed significantly hotter after the AEM was installed. Not sure if anyone noticed this as well. I think I noticed some others experienced this as well (looking for links to post under the main post). Also, I shut off the car at times with the coolant temp around 210 to 219 and the fans don't come on but they do work. During normal stop N go traffic the temps never exceed 220 on a stock cooling system and that was only maybe once or twice in 90 degree weather. It spends most of the time around 195 to 205 where it should be.

How can you test if it's holding preasure? The car just had a new engine put in about 9k miles ago which means they had to put new coolant (does not mean it was done right). Even if the thermostat was bad it would be stuck in an open position. I am not sure what the correct temp's are for the fan cycle. I know you can alter when the fans come on but I am not sure how to do that yet. This could be resolve on Wednesday anyway as I should be doing another tuning session with MM. While I agree I should check out the debris and sealing the rad...I do not think this is the issue based on the cooling system performance at speed. The issue only surfaces at idle for long periods of time.



I'm heading down the path of tracking probably in the neighborhood of once a month so I need my cooling system in semi-race prep.

I was thinking about the following:
BHR radiator, Mazmart water pump and thermo, coolant solution (dont know yet), second radiator, custom ducting, and a vented hood. I also noticed some guys eliminated there second oil cooler and used that spot for the second radiator but I am left thinking fine coolant temps stay consistant but what about oil temps? I realize one can affect the other but just not sure how efficient that setup is?

With the stock inbox moved the under hood temps seam higher.

Your thermostat might be sticky. If its original a replacement might be in order.

I think your right...After posting above I thought about it a bit and removing the air box basically altered the flow of air to the top of the engine bay. It makes you wonder if that's hurting intake temps? I am sure it is...One day I popped open the hood and almost burned myself on the latch to open the hood. It was that hot. I think a vented hood is in order and/or some heat shields. I probably should have had the AP installed before the intake but did not think of it. My goal is to log all changes made from now on. It should help this thread.

As far as the sticky thermo...wouldn't that affect temps during normal driving? Note that I drive like a crazed lunatic and frequent very hi speeds and engine load. :eyetwitch

I forgot to add...My coolant light is on but that is due to a bad sensor. Coolant level is otherwise ok.

I am also adding a list of cooling suggestions to the first post that have yeilded good results if memory serves. I will remove/add as we go along.

good idea to lump all the info into one thread. I have a lot of info. I am at work now and I dont have time to post it all. i will post tonight.
I have found over the years in dealing with this issue that this car doesnt need as much help with cooling as I once thought.

My thread might be helpful as well for something, I have had cooling issues in the past.

https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=218810

More is less (did I just say that? :lol:). The factory cooling system is very good but you have to look at it as a system. I was chasing cooling gremlins forever and it ended up being a small coolant seal leak the whole time that was actually determined by a very simple oil analysis and then a coolant system pressure test.

Now if your components are worn and in need of replacement then upgrades are probably a good idea if you choose well. Be careful what you read, many products are knocked or endorsed without any real testing and may be blindly endorsed or blindly bashed. I am running the Mizu aluminum radiator, secondary Long brand radiator, Mazmart water pump, and Mazmart thermostat, and custom oil cooler and oil thermostat setup, so we shall see just how that combo does on a boosted 8 in Texas heat.

Now, if I was just getting started and had a relatively new stock RX-8, I would so custom oil lines to the stock oil coolers, an Earl's oil thermostat, delete the factory oil cooler thermostats, and run a secondary radiator with a bypass setup. But of course remember that I live in South Texas.

Damn 9k, isn't that like using a nuke when a pistol would do the job lol? What are your regular ambiant temps? I see 90+ degrees most of the year and I can't get my temps above 205. Now I haven't tracked mine yet to see how it holds up under that stress but I do a lot of stop and go with with hard throttle in between with no issues.

Normally in 90F+ weather 185-200F is normal driving around town from what I have seen and what other SARX guys are seeing. I have been driving Hoss-05's car and in the recent 70-80F weather I have been seeing 170F-185F even when doing a row through the gears to redline.

But when driving hard in the canyons(often for me, shut it Teamrx8 :lol:) or stuck in bumper to bumper traffic (rare for me) in 100F weather getting to the 215-220F range is easy. If your cooling system is not operating as it was designed, getting above 220F is easy in the type of heat we see here during the summer.

That makes me happy to hear, and very happy about the temps I'm running. I plan on trying to get into auto crossing after I finish my new brake setup in January so I"m curious to see how it will hold up in that heat. I will consider upgrading my oil coolers if the need should arise.

From what I can tell, the oil cooling system is equally as important, and good oil that can take the heat.

Yep, oil cooling and the coolant system go hand in hand.

Excelent thread Redline...I added it to the main post as you accomplished about 80% of my personal goals with the cooling system. I hope to take a few steps further than this thow and possible relocate the AC condensor or add an additional radiator for when I am racing...Maybe even do some duct work to engineer the entrance and exit of air through all coolers.

In the mean time I will continue to gather all relevant information for this thread but in about 3 months (TAX RETURN) I will start my project and will add many of the parts discussed. I will more than likely create a thread on this and take tons of pics.

This is exactly what I am seeing with my car...It's only when I am parked for 15 min or more that temps get really high. I'm now wondering if BOTH of my fans are working or not. I'll try and replicate these conditions today to see if I can tell if both are running.

If only MM was reading this he could tell me how to change the FAN engagement settings on the AP. Sigh...I guess I have to search... :suspect: :cwm27:

Do you have Access tuner race? If so it's easy, and it's here if you search.

Suggestion:

Cooling is covered in the $100 thread, as are grounds for the fans. The reason for the foam around the radiator is NOT to funnel the outside air through it, the foam is to keep the engine bay air (hot), that has already gone through the radiator once, from going around it and back through again and again when the fans are running and your are stopped, or barely moving. 180 degree air is not that effective in cooling the engine.

Even if you sealed around the radiator, if you pulled the stock air box, and did not fill the holes, you have the same thing going on. That thread($100) lists all that I have done cooling mod wise. Last summer I sat in a hot parking lot (105 on outside temp gauge) with the AC running for 20 minutes waiting on my kid. Engine never went over 190 (on my Cobb), car was 68 degrees inside, actually almost uncomfortable. Windows were starting to fog a bit on the outside.

Make sure the fans are running at top speed (grounds, check relays) and that you only use cooling air once (foam), and you should be good to go. Either of those not working will kill you.

Good luck.

Got vented hood, seibon STII.
Relocated battery and MS intake (without the intake under tray).
Basically there's nothing in between my radiator and vented hood besides few wires and MS intake.
And hot air travels upward, that's why at stop u get much higher temp with stock setup when the only opening is downward.
Rarely pass 200 with this setup. Still got stock radiator, BHR radiator will be my next cooling mod.

:Wconfused

I bought the AP from MM with the calibration service...That is all I know. I haven't searched in the last couple of hours cause getting paid is a priority. :D: I'll so some searching when I get home. :)

already some good advice here. i will try to sum up all my thoughts on cooling in this car.
1- you cooling needs will depend on your environment and driving style. Hot weather, low humidity, high rpm/load , tuning, modifications, condition of your car and cooling system, coolant choice are all going to affect what will work for you.
2- a generally accepted max coolant temperature is 220F measured at the oem factory sensor/top radiator hose site. If you use the racing beat site that uses the heater hose add 10 degrees to your reading.
3- you cannot cool without airflow thru the radiator. it is pressure difference between the front/rear sides of the radiator that causes flow--not increased air flow to the radiator only. THINK ABOUT THIS.
4- the oem radiator will cool the car fine. it has the capacity if that capacity is used correctly.
5- the oem fans are ok too--if used correctly--also:)
4/5 discussion ---the radiator has to have all the foam secure around it so that the pressure in front of the radiator will stay at a higher level than the pressure on the rear side. This will cause the air to flow thru the radiator at its maxium potential. No ifs ands or buts about that one.
The fans... the fans are ok, but they need to be better utilized. Turning them on earlier is good and works for some. For me in a hot climate and with a FI car, it didnt. I had to wire the fans in a parallel fashion using a "flex a lite" dual fan variable adjustable speed control. This way both fans activate at once and it made a profound difference. I highly recommend this unit. Its interesting that I found that the fan harmonics were also affecting my eps harness, causing some lost of eps! I fixed that too!

7- coolant --a mixture of 70% water and 30% coolant is recommended
8- make dang sure the radiator cap is good and will hold the recommended pressure--it is a commonly overlooked but critical item
9- thermostat-- throw the oem away and do NOT use a auto part store replacement. They usually do not seal the bypass well enough. The Mazmart one seals very well and has a bigger opening for better flow. For the hardcore cooling fanatic the Stewart Warner barrel type 180F thermostat that requires some modification to the thermostat housing and the closing of the bypass system is the way to go. I could start a new thread on this mod on its own. I run this now and really really like it.
10 -- mazmart or series 2 waterpump is also a very good option to do.
11--stay away from underdrive pulleys for the water pump. We could actually use an overdrive pulley--yea some call me crazy.
There is more--but whew I am now tired---so maybe later
How some can get some use from all this

Discovery
 

Light Bulb (Dispicible Me)

So I made a discovery towards solving my cooling mystery. The entire drive home the coolant temps stayed below 196 def F...In fact it was usually around 190 Deg F. So I thought to myself how do I replicate the issue I experienced before...I decided to drive to the local gas station and park for 10 minutes. So guess what? My temps dropped down to 187 to 190 Deg F. I was so confused at this point that I left the gas station when the "Light Bulb" came on...My AC wasn't on...Why would it be it's 78 Deg F outside. So I parked again and this time I turned on the AC and played a game on my iPhone for S&G's. Well after only 5 min my temps went to 199 Deg F and eventually got as high as 208 Deg F and was slowly climing. I turned off the AC and sure enough after 5 min the temps started dropping again down to 203 Deg F. I proved my point at this time and went home. By the time I got home (about 1 mile) the temp read at 197 Deg F.

Why would the AC cause this much of a spike? 9K...you mentioned being in extremely hot Texas weather showing an average of 190 to 210 with spirited driving. I assume your AC was on? I have a huntch what the issue is since I left out one more Gremlin. It appears there is a bad valve (part of the AC system that controls when the compressor turns on I think). My AC still cools but I can't run a full load of freeon or else the compressor engauges and disengauges too often and never conditions the air. So my mechanic intentionally removed some freeon to keep me going until I can get this fixed. I just can't put 1 and 1 together and figure out why this would affect temps so much.

uhhhhhh--the a/c condensor is right next to the radiator, SO when the condensor gets hot it affects the radiator. And when the compressor is on it places a load on the engine. Plus you are sitting still.

I've been following a few of your posts regarding cooling and I'm impressed with the knowledge you accumalated thus far.

Can you expand regarding the EPS (I assume you mean the electronic power steering)?

This is all really good info. I am adding much of it to the original post.



I guess what I meant to say is I don't know why it would be making "that much" of a difference but thinking it through more throughly it makes sense ofcourse. So over utilization of the compressor is making the condensor much hotter and that heat is transfered to the radiator? I just did not conceive that it would cause that much of a tempurature hike.

:eek: I need to get this fixed...Thanks OD!

eps--yep e power steering

sub'd for future reference.
No time atm to read all the goodness here.

thanks

When I said to expand I did not mean to confirm what EPS stands for...:lol: :lol:

I meant explain what your findings were. :)

I assume the coolant temperature of 220F stated is relavant to those using the AP without any modification to sensors. In other words a stock cooling system.

P.S. I've been waiting all these years for a good thread to boost my post count! :lol2: :rollingla

(Waits for Team to come on in and say this thread fails):lol2:

Ok, I tried to look for this thread but no luck thus far. I searched for "$100 thread", "$100 cooling", "$100 cooling thread", "cooling", "$100 b..." ah never mind about that one... :lol2:

https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-forum-197/congratulations-you-got-8-a-202548/
here you go Chris.

sorry, my bad.

Look in my signature block. click on the words "Spend Your First $100".

And, do not feel bad about the search. I had to search 4 or 5 times, under my name, to get it to come up. I also can no longer edit that thread for some reason. I was going to try to make it easier to search for. Not sure what is going on.

Thanks Bro!

You just made me look like a complete idiot! LMAO!!! :lol2: :lol:

Edit: I am adding a few of those links to the main post. Thanks for the good post!

Hey Green,
If what you mean by edit your thread to make it easier too search ... like for example change the title of the thread, you can't.
Once a thread has been created only the Mods can change the title. (just an FYI is you didn't already know)

The ability to edit your posts must only be a set window of time. I'm unable to edit any of my older posts or threads.
I'm sure if I read the Forum rules it would say something about, but I'm not lol.

@wcs:
Yeah, that is what I was thinking. That was one of my first posts and I really wish I had done a better job. I think the the only thing left is to add a post at the end that search will pick up, and then direct folks to the beginning.

@cave:
sorry, also, that thread is a pain to search for, I will work on fixing it. Also, the sig link used to say $100 Thread. I changed it, and have been referring to it wrong. Hope it all helps. Keeping the hot air from getting in front of the radiator was what did it for me.

Cobb Question
 

I think I know the answer to this but does anyone know how to set the Fan turn on/off settings on the AP??? Is that why you need the Race Tuner software?

I just placed an order with Cobb to get the Race Tuner software. I need to change the Fan turn on/off settings and I hope this will let me. :dunno: :evil_laug

Yes, but you cannot edit your MM tune. So you would have to create your own tune and then make changes. I suggest you read up, you are playing with fire. You can make these changes if you are running your own tune. Also, confirm that MM did not already do this already in his tune.

Yeah I know what's at risk and no I'm not dum enough to try to create my own tune until I take a MM tuning course or 2 or 5 or 10...LOL! :evil_laug

Either way I am almost sure it is not happening at the lower temps but just in case what are the turn on points? When do they shut off? I think I noticed the car idling at 205 + once and the fans were not on but don't quote me on this...I'll pay more attention today.

the harmonics of the fans cause a vibration. over time that vibration was causing the connectors on the power steering harness to loosen just a wee little bit. this caused an interupption in the signal which causes the eps to shut down.
I move the wires around a little bit, removed the connectors from the plastic housings, made a them fit tighter and used copious amounts of shrink wrap etc to cover it. then I added a thick foam wrap around the harness to elimenate the vibration from the fan harmonics. NP since.

Interesting...I always thought this issue was due to the coolant overflow being right on top of the connectors. Someone had the idea to extend the overflow hose so it does not spill hot coolant directly ontop of the PS connectors. In addition to cleaning the connectors and making them fit tightly ofcourse.

Do the RB Oil Cooler Screens adversely affect cooling? My hunch is that the effect is negligible - not big enough to not use them.

I never noticed a negative effect with the screens installed.
In the summer months it gets hot here [above 30*C, although humidity helps (in this case only!!)], and bumper to bumper traffic. Never saw above 197*F

EDIT: I run the cobb, with MM tune, FYI

It is negligible. We were monitoring oil temps in Grungepups car for a long while (he still is actually) and his temps were inline with another stock RX-8's temps and Grungepup has screens. Unless the mesh is really, really small, I don't see them affecting oil temps at all. Also, keep in mind that this is in South Texas during the summer. I installed mesh on my custom cooler setup.

DIY Cooling Mod
 

Step1: Take off two or three of the plastic screws that hold the plastic wheel well liner, behind the oil coolers, together.

Step2: Repeat on the opposite side of the car

Step3: Go for a joy ride and make sure you are cruising at 146 MPH or more.

Step4: Be patient...

Step5: Eventually you will hear a flapping noise...Make sure to slow down to 120 ish MPH.

Step6: You should hear a sound like you ran over plastic.

Step7: Pull over

Step8: Inspect wheel wells

Step9: Plastic liners would have misteriously disappeared and you should now have exposed oil coolers which equals more air.

Results: your car should run 20 deg cooler :rolleyes: :Freak_ani

Update and Observation
 

I just installed my new Mazsport water pump and thermostat with the aid of my brother (he did all the work...lol).

Observations:

1) Idle and city driving give normal temperatures in the range of 190 to 199 def F.
Conditions were 70 def F...Hard driving and intentsionally keeping the car in higher rpm's while driving at slow speeds. It once or twice hit 203 deg F but quickly fell once I got to speed again (I.E. more air volume through radiator). Coolant mix of 60% coolant and 40% water.

2) Highway driving gave temps in the range of 172 to 199 deg F.
Conditiond were 65 deg F...Sustained 85 mph driving for 3 hours with frequent bursts of speed in excess of 100 mph. It never once went above 199 deg F but whats worth mentioning is 99% of the time the temp read in the range of 176 to 180 deg F.

3) Based on the above I believe this will have a dramatic affect on racing. I noticed how effeciant the pump is when you get the revs up.

Additional information
- My wheel well lining is gone...see previous post...LMAO
- Stock intake tray was removed to aide in allowing air to travel faster through the radiator. I believe this helped as well.

Note/Question: what temp are the fans supposed to come on? I believe I discovered my cooling issue at idle while AC is on. I believe the second fan is not functioning as suggested previously. I have yet to see that fan come on ever since the new water pump and thermo were installed (Note: I could not see it previously since the stock intake tray was in the way).

I have moved my battery to the boot and now have a custom CAI so I removed the stock box undertray. Now my radiator is completely unrestricted in its exit path. However, I am now concerned that all the hot air is now entering the engine bay and causing heat build up.

I have removed the seal around the windscreen so some air will escape. At this stage I do not plan on getting a vented hood so I am now planning on making a shroud and redirecting the air so it exits from the under tray. I understand this also helps create negative preassure under the car to help with high speed stability.

here is a post for everyones amusement:

I have been trying different approaches in trying to properly cooling this car for years now.
This long message kinda explains what I have now discovered and done with an example of how well it works.

its a lot of info... but I will try to condense it.
Key points addressed in dealing with our cooling system:
1- low speed cooling weakness
2- sustained high load/rpm high weakness
3- possible shut down temperature spikes resulting in metal fatique over time
4- hot spots.
Facts that you need to rememeber when doing cooling system modifications:
1- the system has to have somewhat matched parts
2- the more coolant flow you have the better -UP TO A POINT
3- radiators with a bigger face front will cool better than a thicker one
4- a double past radiator needs much more pressure to flow correctly
5- the radiator has to flow freely enough to supply the water pump
6- the coolant system is basically a closed system and one weakness can ( but shouldnt be) compensated by a stronger part --for example too small of a radiator can be ok if a strong enough fan is used--but dont do that unless you have too
7- proper warm up is as important as peak/cruising temps.
8- oil temps should be no more than 30degrees F higher than coolant , the oil temps should NEVER be lower than the coolant.

Theres more--but you get the idea.
Now over the years I have tried many different approachs. Secondary radiator, better water pump/thermostat, modified the thermostat housing to accept a barrel type stat that flows better, rerouted heater hose lines, coolant blend percentages, fan control modifications, etc etc etc. It always seemed that all these things I did would either, overcool in the cooler months, overcool during cruising on the interstate, delay warm up, wouldnt address low speed cooling well enough ( for me) or just SOMETHING wasnt right. I could cool for the track , but it would overcool for the street. I could cool for the street but then run too hot on the track. You get the idea.
During all this time, I have learned a lot. A whole lot.
I now firmly believe that both water (oem and aftermarket)pumps do not flow enough at rpms under 2.5K. Thats a problem that presently cant be fixed without adding another pump. Enough said. But the aftermarket pump does do a much better job in the higher rpms IF the radiator can flow enough to keep up with it and you have good radiator hoses.
So in trying to determine root causes of my cooling problems and believing that low speed flow/cooling is a problem--how do you address it? No options out there for a better water pump that can cover all these rpms without going to a dual pump setup--I am not completly sold on the ewp--yet. So I decided to compensate the inadequate low rpm flow with a secondary radiator. That helped but it really didnt work without overcooling in other enviroments. Its interesting that I discovered something else while dealing with possible solutions. As below.
. The throttle body heating system and the heater hose takes A LOT of coolant away from the raditor. My rough measurement was 10-15%!!! That coolant never sees the radiator and is never cooled. So using that supply for the secondary radiator was logical--right??. I mean can you imagine how that hotter coolant mixing in with the coolant that is returning from the radiator affects the true deltas?
Ok--I installed a fluid thermostat from Derale ( look it up) to the heater hose and TB coolant hoses and used that to feed the secondary radiator and that worked great. Great results!!!
BUT, I noticed something else. Something I have never been able to do before. The temp flutuations where more narrow and occured much less. Huhhh??
WHY??!! Then it hit me. The derale thermostat only has small coolant passages ( less than 3/8"). That was causing a restriction in the large coolant circuits ( heater and TB combined) we have!! More coolant was flowing through the engine and the pump head pressure was raised!!! That was the defining moment.
So many people have removed the internal restrictor in their heater hoses and I think that after 2005 our cars didnt even come with one! The heater/tb coolant hoses divert too much coolant from our already stressed system AND in doing so reduces the head pressure on the water pump causing it to pump less effectively in the lower rpms. Bingo
So my stable year round cooling package now consists of ( and I dont think all of these items are needed)
1-Mazmart w/p and thermostat--thermostat drilled with one 1/8 inch hole ( i will not go into all those reasons)
2- flex a lite fan controller that activates BOTH ( this is important)fans at 185F
3- a very small open fin design Summit racing cooler 21x 7 mounted directly on the front bumper support ( the back side of the cooler does not have to be open to the air--if it is--ok but it doesnt have to be, but the face of the cooler needs to be in the airflow. That front bumper support is also a HUGE heat sink. Dont forget to open up your grill a little
4- derale fluid thermostat that starts opening at 170F--look it up and read the details.
5- coolant bend of water /coolant 70 W 30 C
6- oem radiator cap
7- oem radiator
8- pull the a/c condensor away from the radiator approx 1 inch
9- proper radiator hoses --the biggest bottom radiator hose you can get.
I think this system would work with the oem pump if you dont go over 7.5K rpms a lot.
The fans activation helps with the low speed demands, but the small secondary radiator also helps at speeds over 5 mph, the secondary radiator, mazmart pump helps a LOT for high load, high rpm and high speed cooling .
I have left out a LOT of details about why this works for me ( pump head pressure requirements, coolant viscosity changes,radiator flow etc etc--but this is the gist of it).
I know you will have more questions.

I will give you a real life repeatable example.
When i go to work, i drive to the inter city and then have to park in a deck 5 floors up. So thats 5 floors up in 1st gear at about 3K rpms. At ambient temps of 80F and regular humidity for this area I will pull into the deck with coolant temps at about 180F. This is with my cooling package consisting of all the above options listed except the secondary rad and fluid thermostat. By the time i get to my parking space 5 floors up my coolant temp is at 200F and the fans are running . It will not go over 200F. Obvious taxing of the cooling system.
Ok I added the small 2nd radiator with the thermostat and i would enter once again with coolant temps at approx 180F ambient etc almost exactly the same.
You ready....coolant temp now at 185F and steady.
Cruise temps on the interstate at 175F , around town --even with a/c on--so far not over 185F
Without that thermostat/restrictor and the same 2nd radiator mounted in the same location--i was over cooled while cruising with temps 155-160 and the parking deck environment would still drive it up to 190-195F.
So I think I have fin ally found my solution.i
Now the real tests will come when the ambient gets 100F here, but I just have to wait for that.
This set up will also cool me on track---no doubt.
Take it for what it is worth.
Neat work on the a/c condenser move
Now off to summit racing to meet with the tech expert from Hedman headers. He has some ideas about headers in a zero overlap engine.
OD

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Ok I need help I really suck at electrical . My car started to over heat I don't let it pass 1/2 the stock gauge . I notice only the driver side fan works , the other one didn't turn on and it hit the 1/2 way mark , I took off plug off the second fan ( passenger side ) and when I jump with battery it turn perfect I moved by hand and freely moved . What do I do next . I'm going to turn on again and leave AC off and see if driver side fan turns on , if it's relay witch one do I replace .
Thanks guys

Ok after a few more test , the fan on right I'm guessing AC fan goes on when I turn AC on so I'm going to check the Temp sensor and replace it