5W30 Oil Don't Cut it, Engine Bearing Pics 58K S1 RX-8 from England.
10-01-2009, 09:05 AM
#77
Well, Take it out and clean it is another thing ...
Not sure why this is becoming yet another premix and weight discussion. This is an 04 and we know the 04-06 didn't have proper oil metering until they received the most recent recall. Premix was vital for those model years and definitely reduced wear and risk of engine loss during that period.
Since the last flash the number of reports of new engines has gone down significantly for those model years and 07 and 08 model year engine replacements are very rare. 09 mazda changed the delivery system.
I would be much more interested in seeing an 07 model year that lived just off 5w20 at good (ie 3k) oil change intervals torn open. Until then premix is a time tested helper for the engines.
Since the last flash the number of reports of new engines has gone down significantly for those model years and 07 and 08 model year engine replacements are very rare. 09 mazda changed the delivery system.
I would be much more interested in seeing an 07 model year that lived just off 5w20 at good (ie 3k) oil change intervals torn open. Until then premix is a time tested helper for the engines.
The other problem is the nozzle location. most wear happens at the center, the oil just cant "get" there and Mazda knows it. They increased the pump rate to "band-aid" the problem. uneven wear still happening and the only way to save it is by premixing. at least for 04-08 model.
10-01-2009, 09:16 AM
#80
Ever considered a driver error if you trash more than one engine daily driving the car?
10-01-2009, 10:27 AM
#83
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Well personally I have had three engines and my second engine lasted the longest (72,000 miles) and it saw nothing but Castrol GTX 10W-30 and virtually no premix (only the last 5,000 or so of its life). This engine was always warmed up, always had regular oil changes, driven mostly highway miles, was red lined daily, in hot Texas weather.
I honestly believe premixing and a better synthetic oil (i used to think Dino was sufficient) would have allowed it to last past the 100k mark but really its just speculation because I was not able to tear the engine apart.
I honestly believe premixing and a better synthetic oil (i used to think Dino was sufficient) would have allowed it to last past the 100k mark but really its just speculation because I was not able to tear the engine apart.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 10-01-2009 at 10:50 AM.
10-01-2009, 11:03 AM
#84
Well I can't get the idemitsu premix here, so I'd be unsure of the quality of what I'd have to premix with. But with possible negatives I was referring to the gunk issues too.
It's just too hard to prove this stuff, cause everyone that's got the skill to know has a second agenda. Or so it seems.
It's just too hard to prove this stuff, cause everyone that's got the skill to know has a second agenda. Or so it seems.
10-01-2009, 11:23 AM
#85
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I premix Lucas UCL and so far I'm happy with it but I'm not sure i will run it in my SOHN adapter. I have not decided yet.
I agree it is hard to prove or make general assumptions when most of the engines have not been torn down by unbiased individuals. I also feel that the failure issues vary and there is no one issue in particular. This engine just takes a certain type of owner who is going to be super diligent in taking care of it. If someone owns this car and skimps on maintenance and does not do proper research, then they will pay the price.
For me it has taken two engines and some definite experimenting and who knows, I may still end up blowing this motor even with premixing, using the SOHN, and good oil maintenance. but at least this time I will be able to tear it part.
I agree it is hard to prove or make general assumptions when most of the engines have not been torn down by unbiased individuals. I also feel that the failure issues vary and there is no one issue in particular. This engine just takes a certain type of owner who is going to be super diligent in taking care of it. If someone owns this car and skimps on maintenance and does not do proper research, then they will pay the price.
For me it has taken two engines and some definite experimenting and who knows, I may still end up blowing this motor even with premixing, using the SOHN, and good oil maintenance. but at least this time I will be able to tear it part.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 10-01-2009 at 11:30 AM.
10-01-2009, 12:25 PM
#86
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Ash, I appreciate you posting another piece of reference data. I do, however, want to caution anyone trying to draw any conclusions when trying to link oil viscosity and engine wear directly.
The fact is until someone provides constant oil analysis data to show the progress of engine wear along with testing data on the oil itself we're not going to be able to make any hard conclusions about all this. The best method of testing oil viscosity and it's effects on engine wear would probably be a year long project, require at least one if not two motor rebuilds and cost thousands of dollars. In the end the results will either confirm or deny the suggestion that lower oil viscosity is responsible for major engine damage.
Like premixing, there is always going to be an argument. When BHR did the rebuild for Phil's 8 he was using 5w-30 royal purple and his motor looked perfect. This was after 15,000 miles of brutal supercharger pounding.
Oil viscosity is only one piece of the puzzle. As it was mentioned, if the change interval was 12,000 miles then that oil was toast if it was a semi-synthetic or a mineral oil. Even the best full synthetics would be mostly on their way out by then. If the driver didn't give the motor any time to warm up before pounding on it or had poor OMP injection that would contribute as well.
Use what you want as it's your car. However before anyone starts claiming the debate is over you might want to consider that for every car that you claim has a failed engine for a certain oil I'm sure we can find another one that doesn't.
The fact is until someone provides constant oil analysis data to show the progress of engine wear along with testing data on the oil itself we're not going to be able to make any hard conclusions about all this. The best method of testing oil viscosity and it's effects on engine wear would probably be a year long project, require at least one if not two motor rebuilds and cost thousands of dollars. In the end the results will either confirm or deny the suggestion that lower oil viscosity is responsible for major engine damage.
Like premixing, there is always going to be an argument. When BHR did the rebuild for Phil's 8 he was using 5w-30 royal purple and his motor looked perfect. This was after 15,000 miles of brutal supercharger pounding.
Oil viscosity is only one piece of the puzzle. As it was mentioned, if the change interval was 12,000 miles then that oil was toast if it was a semi-synthetic or a mineral oil. Even the best full synthetics would be mostly on their way out by then. If the driver didn't give the motor any time to warm up before pounding on it or had poor OMP injection that would contribute as well.
Use what you want as it's your car. However before anyone starts claiming the debate is over you might want to consider that for every car that you claim has a failed engine for a certain oil I'm sure we can find another one that doesn't.
10-01-2009, 01:49 PM
#87
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Yep. I just sent my first sample from the first oil change after my break in period. I will continue to test it and see how it goes. I wish I could have started before summer however because its getting cooler now.
10-01-2009, 03:12 PM
#89
Oil weight question has been beaten to death at the 3,4,7 community.
can't believe its happening here again ... *shurgs*
btw the conclusion was ... 20w50 for most. colder area use 10w40.
I mean, 20w50 is not magic and it wont save anybody from engine failures ... but an engine, just like any other stuff ... its strongest part its the weakest link ... the only question I got is --- why people so afraid to use it ?
can't believe its happening here again ... *shurgs*
btw the conclusion was ... 20w50 for most. colder area use 10w40.
I mean, 20w50 is not magic and it wont save anybody from engine failures ... but an engine, just like any other stuff ... its strongest part its the weakest link ... the only question I got is --- why people so afraid to use it ?
Last edited by nycgps; 10-01-2009 at 03:15 PM.
10-01-2009, 03:18 PM
#90
10-01-2009, 03:21 PM
#91
the only question I got is --- why people so afraid to use it ?
10-01-2009, 03:27 PM
#92
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why people so afraid to use it ?
Besides, I love discussing this stuff. It may take hours of reading bullshit to learn on small tidbit but to me its worth it. I'm horrible with numbers so some of the calculations used to determine these numbers are difficult for me to comprehend unless I read it ten times,
Edit: the fact that thicker oil robs real world horsepower seems tough to believe but then again the idea that thinner oil gets you better gas mileage is a laugh too. But either way an engine dyno would be needed to test.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 10-01-2009 at 03:29 PM.
10-01-2009, 04:25 PM
#93
^ I think the whole problem is people going too much off of theoretical, engine dyno type of discussion and not enough on noticeable real world driving and noticeable engine longevity.
It's not whether heavy oil hurts gas mileage or power. We know it does. But does it hurt it enough to feel/notice every day? And if you do notice fuel consumption and power loss... isn't it worth it, given the [alleged] loss of bearing life from thinner oils?
It's not whether heavy oil hurts gas mileage or power. We know it does. But does it hurt it enough to feel/notice every day? And if you do notice fuel consumption and power loss... isn't it worth it, given the [alleged] loss of bearing life from thinner oils?
Last edited by arghx7; 10-01-2009 at 04:27 PM.
10-01-2009, 04:34 PM
#94
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great thread Ash, thanks for sharing.
Glad I picked up some premix this past weekend. Time to start using it.
Glad I picked up some premix this past weekend. Time to start using it.
10-01-2009, 05:01 PM
#95
Because IMO, it's a bit extreme. As research has shown, there is no too little of a weight at start up, so in that aspect especially with our engines I'll stick with trying 0w, and as for the latter, I'll try 30 or 40 aka 0w-30 or 0w-40. At operating temps I believe they lubricate better than the thicker 50. Just my personal preference.
In any selection, I think something thicker than 5w-20 is needed for using this car as a DD which almost most have concluded. We don't have enough data generally speaking other than you always stating the 7 community or whatever has used 20w-50 to remedy the 5w-20 fail sauce. I believe something thinner can be used for better performance and there isn't many (if any) testimonials out there saying I made it to such and such miles and it failed or has no failure with other weights outside the manual to benchmark it with. More importantly, lack of technical data or engine tear downs to compare (one can dream) that involve the rotary.
Someone get me 20k and I'll set up a lab to cycle test some Renesis engines with various weights with multiple loads to see which fails first and last longest
Just think of it benefiting the community!
In any selection, I think something thicker than 5w-20 is needed for using this car as a DD which almost most have concluded. We don't have enough data generally speaking other than you always stating the 7 community or whatever has used 20w-50 to remedy the 5w-20 fail sauce. I believe something thinner can be used for better performance and there isn't many (if any) testimonials out there saying I made it to such and such miles and it failed or has no failure with other weights outside the manual to benchmark it with. More importantly, lack of technical data or engine tear downs to compare (one can dream) that involve the rotary.
Someone get me 20k and I'll set up a lab to cycle test some Renesis engines with various weights with multiple loads to see which fails first and last longest
Just think of it benefiting the community!
Last edited by Vlaze; 10-01-2009 at 05:07 PM.
10-01-2009, 05:01 PM
#96
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I can tell you as someone in the industry that one of the biggest mistakes that have been made is thinking that the RENESIS is the same as every other rotary out there. I've seen time and time again where shops apply RX7 fixes to the RX8 and wonder why it doesn't work. It's a different motor with different needs.
The issue isn't about power and it's not about fuel economy. The issue is about what best protects the motor under the circumstances that people are using it. It's the fact that there continues to be misunderstandings about fluid dynamics and how pressure relates to flow.
Arguments for heavier oils are made based on "feelings" and various other reasons other than the oil's effect on the motor.
they heard it robs horsepower on an internet forum... but last I checked a spun bearing doesn't help the dyno numbers either. maybe some guy on the internet has some dyno sheet supposedly proving something, but I can't feel any difference in power between the different oil grades I have tried on both n/a and turbo rotaries.
Arguments for heavier oils are made based on "feelings" and various other reasons other than the oil's effect on the motor.
10-01-2009, 05:12 PM
#97
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what would you recommend? such as brand names and etc. I definitely don't want my engine to fail.
10-01-2009, 05:17 PM
#98
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Arguments for heavier oils are made based on "feelings" and various other reasons other than the oil's effect on the motor.
Currently I am trying to research just what the best gasoline is and what is the best way to limit carbon build up (please don't chime in about revving, I know).
10-01-2009, 05:18 PM
#100
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As for brands you'll hear good and bad experiences with every single brand. I'd stick with one that is a Group IV or Group V base stock which are true synthetics. Anything that is a 0w oil will be a true synthetic so you can choose your favorite brand using that as a guide.
Spending the slight cash for oil analysis testing is also a good idea. It will let you now how your engine is wearing and how long you can go between change intervals.