Auto 8 tuning and the CZ unit
02-15-2005, 11:31 AM
#47
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Well at least you have your priorities in order Kevin. You might drive your temptress
during the day, but you get to lie down with your wife at night. Good on ya.!
during the day, but you get to lie down with your wife at night. Good on ya.!
02-18-2005, 04:08 PM
#49
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Spr grn8:
How you making out with the maps I sent you?
I am going to do some more runs tonite to tweak my timing from 4K on. Anyone know if you can adjust the timing below 4K with success? I tried playing with timing below 4K and the car ran stronger, but idled very rough.
I will adjust the 4000-5000K rpm range tonite and see if I can get a little more power out of those ranges.
How you making out with the maps I sent you?
I am going to do some more runs tonite to tweak my timing from 4K on. Anyone know if you can adjust the timing below 4K with success? I tried playing with timing below 4K and the car ran stronger, but idled very rough.
I will adjust the 4000-5000K rpm range tonite and see if I can get a little more power out of those ranges.
Last edited by my10ae; 02-18-2005 at 06:41 PM.
02-18-2005, 05:20 PM
#50
I haven't had much luck below 4K with the timing...it seems to hesitate even with 1-2 deg of advance. I have a couple of degrees at 4K and up to 6 in other areas. I'm also going to work on the 5-7K area this weekend. Hope to find a bit more there. Will be dynoing next weekend...hopefully will get a better idea how it reacts...I've got a few maps with varying degrees of advance I want to test.
Anyone have any advice for where to add advance the most effectively.........and how much total advance could be possible??
Anyone have any advice for where to add advance the most effectively.........and how much total advance could be possible??
02-20-2005, 09:32 PM
#52
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Hi all:
Did some tuning Friday nite and found some more power. I adjusted the timing in the 4K column and all is responding well. I tried adjusting the timing below 4K but it just makes the car idle rough and I "feel" no improvements. No rough idling since adjusting the timing 5 degrees from 3.10 to 4.50 volts and moving the timing to 4 degree's from 2.15 to 2.85 volts. No pinging and power comes on very strong once hitting 4000 RPM.
Next step is to adjust the timing for the 4500 RPM range and then on to the 5000 RPM range. Peak torque is at 5000 RPM (for the auto's) so I'm hoping to try to get the most power in that RPM range.
I will keep all posted...
Spr grn8: How did you make out doing your tuning?
Did some tuning Friday nite and found some more power.
I adjusted the timing in the 4K column and all is responding well. I tried adjusting the timing below 4K but it just makes the car idle rough and I "feel" no improvements. No rough idling since adjusting the timing 5 degrees from 3.10 to 4.50 volts and moving the timing to 4 degree's from 2.15 to 2.85 volts. No pinging and power comes on very strong once hitting 4000 RPM.Next step is to adjust the timing for the 4500 RPM range and then on to the 5000 RPM range. Peak torque is at 5000 RPM (for the auto's) so I'm hoping to try to get the most power in that RPM range.
I will keep all posted...
Spr grn8: How did you make out doing your tuning?
02-21-2005, 12:26 AM
#53
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Can I suggest something? Since I have been playing with below 4K on my CZ, I have some experience as to what gives power and what gives rough idling. Anything below 3750 rpm, do not adjust the ignition. If you look at your Canscan logs on the ignition part, you will see that the lines go up and down in the closed loop area. As soon as your car runs above for open loop, the ignition lines start becoming more linear and sometimes straight for a certain range.
Here's why I think ignition should never be messed with in the close loop area:
That is how the ECU manages the adjustments based on the AFR readings it gets. Ignition is advanced if AFR is below 14.7 and retarded if above 14.7
So, what I did is adjusted the airflow readings for the closed loop area. Over the course of experimenting for 3 months, I found the threshold for my airflow adjustments without causing an abnormal compensation from the ECU's side.
1% adjustment gives it a leaner mix, not much difference except your exhaust notes gets throatier and meaner.
2% adjustment gives a good push in the lower revs. Very noticeable expecially when you suddenly step on it from 2500 rpms. Saved gas too.
3% adjustment gives inconsistent performance. It feels like 1% and I wound up losing gas mileage.
So what happened there? Well, it seems like I was confusing the ECU too much. I made it think it was getting lesser air than it was, so it was giving less fuel to the mix making it leaner. By the time the mix is converted into energy and gets sent to the 02 sensor, it gives an abnormally lean reading. I was getting as much as 15 - 16 AFR sometimes. And so it dumps more fuel the next mix comes.
1% - 2% adjustment doesn't give this kind of confusion for my car. Other cars may have different threshold for closed loop airflow adjustments. Just do what I did and keep the gas consistent through out. I used Chevron 91 at the same pump every time.
This adjustment was done for the whole column, that means 0 - 100 throttle. Yep, idle too :D
PS. I have a 6-speed M/T. Someone contacted me about tuning CZ for Auto, sorry I can't help you with that. I'll chime in here with whatever I can. Good luck to you A/T's!
Here's why I think ignition should never be messed with in the close loop area:
That is how the ECU manages the adjustments based on the AFR readings it gets. Ignition is advanced if AFR is below 14.7 and retarded if above 14.7
So, what I did is adjusted the airflow readings for the closed loop area. Over the course of experimenting for 3 months, I found the threshold for my airflow adjustments without causing an abnormal compensation from the ECU's side.
1% adjustment gives it a leaner mix, not much difference except your exhaust notes gets throatier and meaner.
2% adjustment gives a good push in the lower revs. Very noticeable expecially when you suddenly step on it from 2500 rpms. Saved gas too.
3% adjustment gives inconsistent performance. It feels like 1% and I wound up losing gas mileage.
So what happened there? Well, it seems like I was confusing the ECU too much. I made it think it was getting lesser air than it was, so it was giving less fuel to the mix making it leaner. By the time the mix is converted into energy and gets sent to the 02 sensor, it gives an abnormally lean reading. I was getting as much as 15 - 16 AFR sometimes. And so it dumps more fuel the next mix comes.
1% - 2% adjustment doesn't give this kind of confusion for my car. Other cars may have different threshold for closed loop airflow adjustments. Just do what I did and keep the gas consistent through out. I used Chevron 91 at the same pump every time.
This adjustment was done for the whole column, that means 0 - 100 throttle. Yep, idle too :D
PS. I have a 6-speed M/T. Someone contacted me about tuning CZ for Auto, sorry I can't help you with that. I'll chime in here with whatever I can. Good luck to you A/T's!
Last edited by Xyntax; 02-21-2005 at 12:29 AM.
02-21-2005, 01:16 PM
#54
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Sounds good Kevin, I was planning on installing the hardware and downloading maps this last weekend as the canscan and cables were supposed to be here friday at the latest. Its been over two weeks, But nothing showed up friday or saturday! I talked to canzoomer and they say it was sent "regular mail" but even by regular mail it should have been here already.. Funny thing tho the invoice sent by "regular mail" arrived already!
Last edited by spr grn8; 02-21-2005 at 01:46 PM.
02-23-2005, 12:22 AM
#55
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Originally Posted by spr grn8
Sounds good Kevin, I was planning on installing the hardware and downloading maps this last weekend as the canscan and cables were supposed to be here friday at the latest. Its been over two weeks, But nothing showed up friday or saturday! I talked to canzoomer and they say it was sent "regular mail" but even by regular mail it should have been here already.. Funny thing tho the invoice sent by "regular mail" arrived already!
Packages by regular mail take anywahere from 3 days to 3 weeks, usually at around 10 days.
Letters take about a week, pretty consistently. Different sorting as letters do not go through customs.
BTW, the CANSCAN was sent within the US by Express Post, and looking at the tracking I think it got "stuck" or lost. We sent out a new CANSCAN today by Express Post ( the other one was insured) and a new cable will go by Fedex tomorrow, on my nickle.
We send the separate letter for the invoice and credit card slip for credit card orders as some people have issues when others open packages and get their hands on credit card slips, not to mention the odd p*ed off wife..
02-23-2005, 12:37 AM
#56
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Thanks guys
I really appreciate that some of you are taking the time to do this with the auto transmission version.
I am not able to as I simply do not have access to an AT to test on.
Some things to consider:
As you have seen, when you tune in closed loop mode, the ECU "adjusts" defeating your work, over some time.
There are ways to work around it, like clearing the ECU with the battery ground trick.
I do not think the "Mode 1 and Mode3" tricks help, unless you do not want to disconnect the battery, and doing the the accompanying stuff like setting steering cal for traction control, clock, radio station tuning settings.
Some guidelines:
1) If you tune the car in the sections where it runs "closed loop" it will fight you.
Closed loop is when the car reads the O2 sensor and dynamically adjusts timing and AFR to maintain 14.7:1 AFR and "safe" timing.
2) Open loop happens above a certain rpm, and throttle postiion.
On a 6MT this happens above 70% throttle, and above certain rpms.
The rpm cut point is not consistent across the gears.
In 1st it makes the transition at about 6,200rpm
In 2nd this happens at 5,500
In 3rd and up it happens at 4,800
So, if you tune in 3rd, and all looks good, but you go below 200rpm, then a few hard runs in 1st gear will cause the ECU to adjust it's long term fule trim richer by about 5+% and it defeats the tuning.
This is the cause of frustration to so many who say the unit does not work.
I do not know from hands on where the AT uses for the cutoffs as I have only tested on my and other MT cars.
My advice:
Tune above 6,200
If you want to tune above 5,500 avoid full throttle runs in 1st gear.
Install a replacement bettery ground post that has the 1/4 turn **** to disconnect, as this makes clearing the ECU trims easier.
In about a month Dan Harrirson and I intend to sell a newer CANSCAN RX-8 unit that allows one to set some ECU map tweaks and load/save maps from the ECU.
We are mainy aiming at:
Clearing fuel trims
Adjusting idle up to around 1,000rpm ( removing the RX-8's characteristic rough idle)
Adjusting the redline cutoff to 10,500
Eventually we hope to decode enough of the PIDs ( data areas on the ROM) to be able to allow you to have customized ECU maps.
Of cpurse, before you go to the dealer you will have to restore to stock ort the diagnostics WILL be pissed off.
As far as advance goes, a couple of degrees belwo 6,000rpm is OK, and saves some fuel, but too much and the ECU compensates it's trims.
Always put zeros in the first column as the setting in that column works down as well as up!
When the good weather returns to Alberta I will be able to get some decent tuning time in again and make some more maps. I find that maps done at cold temps make great power in cold temps.
But they are not right for warm weather.
The air is so much denser and the car has thermal sensors, and it will not ping when the air is cold whereaas it will in warm air.
Enough rambling for today..
I am not able to as I simply do not have access to an AT to test on.
Some things to consider:
As you have seen, when you tune in closed loop mode, the ECU "adjusts" defeating your work, over some time.
There are ways to work around it, like clearing the ECU with the battery ground trick.
I do not think the "Mode 1 and Mode3" tricks help, unless you do not want to disconnect the battery, and doing the the accompanying stuff like setting steering cal for traction control, clock, radio station tuning settings.
Some guidelines:
1) If you tune the car in the sections where it runs "closed loop" it will fight you.
Closed loop is when the car reads the O2 sensor and dynamically adjusts timing and AFR to maintain 14.7:1 AFR and "safe" timing.
2) Open loop happens above a certain rpm, and throttle postiion.
On a 6MT this happens above 70% throttle, and above certain rpms.
The rpm cut point is not consistent across the gears.
In 1st it makes the transition at about 6,200rpm
In 2nd this happens at 5,500
In 3rd and up it happens at 4,800
So, if you tune in 3rd, and all looks good, but you go below 200rpm, then a few hard runs in 1st gear will cause the ECU to adjust it's long term fule trim richer by about 5+% and it defeats the tuning.
This is the cause of frustration to so many who say the unit does not work.
I do not know from hands on where the AT uses for the cutoffs as I have only tested on my and other MT cars.
My advice:
Tune above 6,200
If you want to tune above 5,500 avoid full throttle runs in 1st gear.
Install a replacement bettery ground post that has the 1/4 turn **** to disconnect, as this makes clearing the ECU trims easier.
In about a month Dan Harrirson and I intend to sell a newer CANSCAN RX-8 unit that allows one to set some ECU map tweaks and load/save maps from the ECU.
We are mainy aiming at:
Clearing fuel trims
Adjusting idle up to around 1,000rpm ( removing the RX-8's characteristic rough idle)
Adjusting the redline cutoff to 10,500
Eventually we hope to decode enough of the PIDs ( data areas on the ROM) to be able to allow you to have customized ECU maps.
Of cpurse, before you go to the dealer you will have to restore to stock ort the diagnostics WILL be pissed off.
As far as advance goes, a couple of degrees belwo 6,000rpm is OK, and saves some fuel, but too much and the ECU compensates it's trims.
Always put zeros in the first column as the setting in that column works down as well as up!
When the good weather returns to Alberta I will be able to get some decent tuning time in again and make some more maps. I find that maps done at cold temps make great power in cold temps.
But they are not right for warm weather.
The air is so much denser and the car has thermal sensors, and it will not ping when the air is cold whereaas it will in warm air.
Enough rambling for today..
02-23-2005, 09:00 AM
#57
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Maurice,
As always, thanks for sharing your insight on the unit!
P.S. One of these days I'll get around to sending back my original CZ unit to get it updated to the latest daughter board. I just have a hard time living without it for that long. :p
As always, thanks for sharing your insight on the unit!
P.S. One of these days I'll get around to sending back my original CZ unit to get it updated to the latest daughter board. I just have a hard time living without it for that long. :p
03-09-2005, 09:17 PM
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All I can say is that you guys are my heros.
I think its awsome yall have got the AT RX8 to get the tires loose in 2nd gear
I can get mine to do it if I am in Tiptronic mode and let off the gas shift to 2nd and gas it. It gives me a little slip on my back tires. But nothing big Really fun to do in parking lots when its wet too
But I will be checking back on this thread to get my daily or weekly dose of an RX8 *cargasm* yeah thats right, an orgasm over a car
Anyways I g2g. Cya
I think its awsome yall have got the AT RX8 to get the tires loose in 2nd gear
I can get mine to do it if I am in Tiptronic mode and let off the gas shift to 2nd and gas it. It gives me a little slip on my back tires. But nothing big
Really fun to do in parking lots when its wet too But I will be checking back on this thread to get my daily or weekly dose of an RX8 *cargasm* yeah thats right, an orgasm over a car
Anyways I g2g. Cya
Last edited by Diabolical RX8; 03-09-2005 at 09:51 PM.