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-   -   Why is forced induction always mechanical? (https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/why-forced-induction-always-mechanical-202904/)

Charles R. Hill 08-16-2010 02:40 PM


Originally Posted by TeamRX8 (Post 3676203)
You're going about it all wrong .....

http://www.dyson.com/fans/

DAMMIT! That was where I was heading with the new BHR Throttle Body spacer that would serve as a mounting scheme for the motor/compressor/ducting assembly and now you've ruined the surprise, Team. :lol:

Charles R. Hill 08-16-2010 02:44 PM


Originally Posted by Mawnee (Post 3676192)
I mentioned it just to throw out an electric motor that created 500cfm for the sake of fun.

The fact is that it wouldnt work AT ALL. Its not designed to force air and combat reversion.

I am trying to encourage those who have a serious opinion that an idea such as this is viable to get from the abstract to the concrete and the process I am trying to guide along is the way these things go, from inception to offering.

In other words, bench-racing is one thing but actual progress is another. ;)

Mawnee 08-16-2010 02:44 PM


Originally Posted by TeamRX8 (Post 3676203)
You're going about it all wrong .....

http://www.dyson.com/fans/

ahh yessss, the man with the exsstra emphassisssss on all hissss "s"ssss

Brettus 08-16-2010 03:08 PM


Originally Posted by Charles R. Hill (Post 3676232)
I am trying to encourage those who have a serious opinion .

I don't think anyone really wants to go into it too deeply because we all know where it will end ....

Mawnee 08-16-2010 03:13 PM

Abstract is more fun.

1. Pipedream
2. Theorycraft
3. Assert polorized opinion
4. Profit!(Lulz)

zoom44 08-16-2010 04:54 PM

thank you charles for getting this on the path i was hoping it would find.

ok this paxton blower http://www.wireworld.com/paxton/at800.htm

AT 800 flows up to 800cfm at a Max pressure of 106". Thats with the 15hp model. We can use the 7.5 HP motor for 400 cfm.

PhillipM 08-16-2010 06:19 PM

Papst do some industrial blower units for skyscraper ventilation that are 24v so viable if you use a seperate commercial alternator and battery to power it.
I've done that before on a small engine over here for research use (1.4, 75hp jobbie), and to even get a few PSI out of that I ended up adding 60 kg of weight to the car and using wires as thick as your thumb.
Waste of time until cars switch over to at least 48v or so.

isays 08-16-2010 06:54 PM

Ok, here is what gets me:

problem: wouldnt move enough air
How much does a super or a turbo leech off the engine? 10hp? 15 hp?
Why wouldnt an electric motor do the job just as well as a belt from the engine or a turbine in the exhust? Electric motors have mad torque, I have a hard time believing that they couldnt deal with the pressure load on the compressor.

problem: battery would flatline
A pretty powerful gokart can zip around the track for 15 min on a battery thats not that much bigger, so why would this 10hp (assuming the above to be true) motor drain a car battery in a matter of seconds?

There are some practical issues (wiring, space for the motor), but these don't seem big enough to stop it from working.

Spin9k 08-16-2010 06:58 PM

^ if it were easily done, economical, and provided any benefit over a normal turbo or supercharger or even equal benefit...it'd be on lot's of cars the world around....but there aren't any...plain and simple.

People dreaming something should work doesn't make it so ... just saying.

zoom44 08-16-2010 07:16 PM


Originally Posted by phillipm (Post 3676485)
papst do some industrial blower units for skyscraper ventilation that are 24v so viable if you use a seperate commercial alternator and battery to power it.
I've done that before on a small engine over here for research use (1.4, 75hp jobbie), and to even get a few psi out of that i ended up adding 60 kg of weight to the car and using wires as thick as your thumb.
Waste of time until cars switch over to at least 48v or so.

hey!! No fair giving away the ending!;)

paulmasoner 08-16-2010 07:39 PM


Originally Posted by Charles R. Hill (Post 3676137)
...discuss the specs they have discovered

... and exaplin why each motor they have presented would be the best for this particular application.... Boil down the specs.....

um, i didnt even really look at the specs since i dont need to... the thing I linked isnt best, nor is Mawnee's, nor any other. Most of us already know this, and i have a decent grasp of the physics of why.

Originally Posted by Charles R. Hill (Post 3676137)
and tell the rest of us why you bothered to even mention those blower motors, please.

um....



Originally Posted by Charles R. Hill (Post 3675689)
How much airflow do we want said electric supercharger to flow? I think 300-330 gms./sec. would be a good target. Whomever agrees with that target and wants to be involved in new product development, please find an electric blower motor unit with those flow ratings and list the physical dimensions and electrical specifications for the units you find.

Once we have that, the rest will be easy.
;)

cause you said this would be easy lol. i have no part to play, i understand this. so i threw out something random i googled, knowing it didnt matter what i picked because the ultimate result doesnt falter

DarkBrew 08-16-2010 08:39 PM

I think that superconductors and ionic airflow control will make this practical....
Although internal combustion may be obsolete by then...

isays 08-16-2010 09:10 PM


Originally Posted by DarkBrew (Post 3676668)
I think that superconductors and ionic airflow control will make this practical....
Although internal combustion may be obsolete by then...

with ionic airflow you need ions (i'm assuming youre talking about something like an ion thruster). So you either need to drag air along with provided ions (ie. the way a Magnetohydrodynamic drive works in salt water), or you need to ionize the air (plasma). neither of which would make for something good to feed into your engine :p.

high-temperature superconductors would probably help though :p

then again, you were probably joking and i look like an idiot. but thats ok, i already do :p

TeamRX8 08-16-2010 09:38 PM

I'm still waiting on the release of Project Forced Deep BHR Throat Induction ....

Charles R. Hill 08-16-2010 10:54 PM


Originally Posted by isays (Post 3676554)
How much does a super or a turbo leech off the engine? 10hp? 15 hp?
Why wouldnt an electric motor do the job just as well as a belt from the engine or a turbine in the exhust? Electric motors have mad torque, I have a hard time believing that they couldnt deal with the pressure load on the compressor.

Clue; there is FAR more latent heat available from fluid-burning engines and we aren't real good at directly converting heat to electricity yet.

Charles R. Hill 08-16-2010 10:56 PM


Originally Posted by paulmasoner (Post 3676612)
.... cause you said this would be easy lol. i have no part to play, i understand this. so i threw out something random i googled, knowing it didnt matter what i picked because the ultimate result doesnt falter

I meant that the rest of the PROCESS would be easy. As in, for the point to make itself evident.

Charles R. Hill 08-16-2010 10:57 PM


Originally Posted by TeamRX8 (Post 3676729)
I'm still waiting on the release of Project Forced Deep BHR Throat Induction ....

MazdaManiac and I cannot get ourselves past the stage of Beat-testing this on each other.

Easy_E1 08-16-2010 11:09 PM


Originally Posted by Charles R. Hill (Post 3676825)
MazdaManiac and I cannot get ourselves past the stage of Beat-testing this on each other.

Oh no! Not again. :shocking:

Charles R. Hill 08-16-2010 11:16 PM


Originally Posted by Easy_E1 (Post 3676843)
Oh no! Not again. :shocking:

"I meant the cigarette, Scooter, but jump on in!"
Dave Chappelle

vincephan 08-17-2010 12:34 AM

Long story short, guys... non-mechanical forced induction compared to mechanical forced induction is like the rotary engine in the 1950's compared to a piston engine. The research and development hasn't taken off and at the point in time it's simply not feasible to use non-mechanical forced induction given the amount of progress that has gone into them.

Realistically, we should be focusing on making mechanical forced induction work BETTER, not look at a different form of forced induction. We still have a lot of energy to extract from mechanical forced induction and it still has room to grow.

Rote8 08-17-2010 07:32 AM


Originally Posted by Frosty288 (Post 3674423)
Remember, You need energy to create energy!

or matter.
:fingersx:

Still waiting for my Mr Fusion. :tear:

Charles R. Hill 08-17-2010 11:04 AM


Originally Posted by Rote8 (Post 3677176)
Still waiting for my Mr Fusion. :tear:

Around here you would be more likely to get a Mr. Hanky.

tofu_box 08-17-2010 11:25 AM

This system proposed has already sorta been adapted to the new Porsche 918 hybrid concept car.

Porsche has a "Push to Pass" button that unleashes an EXTRA 150 kW (201 hp, more then our car's total hp N/A :() through the electrical motor

However this will only work when the motor has recuperated enough energy from the regenerative braking fitted to both axles.

So it is more of a "Self Filled Nitrous System"

Take note this is on a super car, would systems like this really be affordable on average cars? most likely not, think about the battery side of things, the cost of a regenerative braking system, the ecu modifications required.

Also with the next "generation" of cars becoming rapidly hybrids, i believe all progression in terms of electrical powers would be most likely be focused on more HP from the electrical motor OR more efficient driving

Just my 2c

dillsrotary 08-17-2010 11:39 AM

I don't think the power comes from the brakes, I believe that porsche gt3 uses a large flywheel in a "super" fluid. The flywheel's larger masses and low friction maintain a large inertia.

Triangle Man 08-17-2010 01:48 PM


Originally Posted by tofu_box (Post 3677432)
Porsche has a "Push to Pass" button that unleashes an EXTRA 150 kW (201 hp, more then our car's total hp N/A :() through the electrical motor

However this will only work when the motor has recuperated enough energy from the regenerative braking fitted to both axles.

So it is more of a "Self Filled Nitrous System"

I want that.

I want it on a big, glowing, pulsating red button under a mollyguard on the middle of the dash, ringed by yellow and black hazard striping that says "DO NOT PUSH."


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