Warning about 10% Ethanol mix on turbo cars
 

I thought the turbo guys would be interested in this. This was posted on the RX7club forum by a local Houston club member named Chuck. Hopefuly he won't mind it posted here as it is good info.

This year after May, gas is no longer to contain MTBE as an octane enhancer.
What are different brands doing to enhance octane in place of it? One way is the 10% alcohol blend that is showing up here in Houston. I mostly use Chevron, and recently they have posted signs on their pumps stating that their gas may contain up to 10% ethanol.

For years my car had been running the AFRs that I had tuned for. But since May, I noticed that my smooth lean idle became rough. I had to add 3.5% more fuel to get it to smooth out again. If 10% ethanol is added, it will lean out AFRs due to it being less dense.

To test this, I added 3.5% more fuel to my boost area for over 10PSI. Then I went
logging with my wideband and DATALOGIT. With the additional 3.5% more fuel,
my AFRS are what they were last fall when I last logged AFRs.

If you are running 11.2 AFR for 14PSI boost like I am, this new ethanol induced 3.5% leanest; is leaning it out to 11.6 AFR.

This could be bad for your engine! If you tune for non-alky than get alky or vice versa, your tune will be off. I would like to keep it constant especially if traveling.


For the curious, here's a map of different formulations of gas around the country courtesy of Exxon. It was current as of May.

http://www.exxon.com/USA-English/Fil...p%20100102.pdf

If you want to know what all of this means, go here.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/fuel/rvp.html

The DC area has been constrained by 10% ethanol for a long time.
Here in Phoenix, we have a version of Cali's CBG.
Its seasonal, too.

It all sucks.

Tune as rich as you can until it bogs then go back a point.
Will it produce maximum power? No.
Will it continue to make power for longer than max power. Yes.

That formulation map is interesting. Yesterday I drove through a Conventional & N RFG W/ Ethanol zone in Pennsylvania. The price difference for a gal of 87 was as much as .50/gal within the same state.

For an NA owner, then does it follow by the same reasoning that (unless our cars have a way of determining the new mix - I know that some cars do, but I don't know that the 8 does):

RESULT FOR NA: w/less dense fuel, we'll get an automatic leaning of the mixture overall.

Therefore, CLOSED LOOP, no dif, adjusted for.

However, OPEN LOOP, automatic LEANER mixture, and esp with the reformulations that now have a higher energy density, a small 'supercharging' effect (higher energy/same amount of oxygen).

Sounds like the lazy mans "dream-come-true" tuning method:hahano: !

You noticed if there is less soot on your tail pipes? I have not been paying attention to that myself. Wouldn’t a leaner mix cause less tailpipe soot?

Only if you run open loop most of the time. Sounds fun, but a bit impractical!!!

Otherwise, to early to tell as this only started 6/1/06... also I don't know what "S RFG with ETHANOL" means as far as reformulation goes (where I am).

So in order to wean ourselves off oil...we'll be burning 3.5% more fuel.

Makes perfect sense. Thanks, corn lobby!

NYC has been using 10% ethanol for like a LOOOOONNNNNNNGGGG time.

this is gay, every states have different kind of gas.

I heard that because ethanol is very water soluble if you have any moisture in your tank it will cause the ethanol to mix with it which can screw up your engine. How am I supposed to pwn n00bs with a busted engine?

i thought the ethanol would absorb moisture therefor gettign it out of your tank. haha granted it gets out by being burned in your engine.

as for NA cars with this..i doubt we would need to add 3.5% more fuel as our engines aren't boosted (turbo's need more fuel for the added air being shoved in them)...bu tlet's say even if we do need to add 3.5% more fuel...can't the stock ecm change the fuel map +-35% or somethign like that (i'm not sure for mazda but toyotas will change fuel trim up to 35% befor throwing a code, i've seen toyota ecm's change trim up to 40%
)...so it should be a big deal for us....well as long as the car is in open loop mode and using values it gets from the a/f sensor to tune the fuel trim.

In closed loop mode your car will compensate. For boosted cars with custom ecu's tunes, remember they are running in open loop under boost. Some ecu's are set up to run full time in open loop. There is no compensation at this point.

I think you meant to say... "in closed loop it's no big deal."

In open loop (WOT) it may help us a bit... as that's where (blindly used) ECU maps are pig rich (and there is no compensation or checking on actual values....aka why it's called 'open loop') ?

^^^Could you please explain "open loop" vs. "closed loop" I'm pretty mechanically illiterate.

closed is when the ecu uses maps for fuel, but is watching the O2 sensors and adjusts to suit conditions. This is normal operating conditions.

open is when you go say 80% to WOT and the ECU uses maps (usually rich ones for safety of the engine under these extreme conditions), but stops trying to regulate or adjust the a/f ratio.

but the 8 uses the Fuel trim established during closed to trim the open loop

hehe yes i mean tto reverse that.. lol well you guys got the point

For N/A cars it means your mile per gallon go down and you pay more for gas as Ethanol is more expensive per gallon that gasoline. So basically you use more gas and spend more for it. If we are forced in the future to go to E85 your going to end up spending well over twice for your fuel.

It's a stupid solution to our oil usage by greedy companies like ADM and farmers. GM is also pushing it as a last ditch attempt to save themselves.

Ethanol also isn't particularly good for your engine either.

If you don't have it mixed in your gas you soon will unless you call your state and federal representatives and complain.

Ethanol itself isn't bad for the engine. It actually burns cooler. The thing that is bad about it is that it absorbs water easily. It'll suck the moisture right out of the air. It's water in the system that eventually corodes everything.

The bigger problem - now that it is mandated, is that 'they' (Washington politicos) passed the laws, but didn't bother with figuring out how to put in place the needed infrastructure to transport and distribute the ethanol where it's needed. It's a big country, the ethanol is in the midwest plains, and it has to be added just prior to local dispensing due to the problems w/mixing and storage of this combination of fuels.

Therefore California, Texas, and the east coast for the most part. Since most trains tracks are long gone, trucks carry the stuff around. Now that's smart.... how many million gallons of the stuff do we need anyway????

Then add the cost and problems in using it.....storing it...engines efficiency

I always run better when I put 10% alchohol into my system. However, I tend to crash more often. Did the politicians account for that?

Doesnt Brazil run their cars purely on eth? I believe there are RX8's running on eth. Wouldnt we be able to retune to do the same?

Yup my engine burns moisture out of the air all the time!

Just noticed we have 10%ethanol fuel available here now .

It is rated at 98octane (approx. 93 US) .
The fuel I currently run is 98 octane as well . Just wondering if the ethanol mix would be any better/worse as far as detonation goes ?

Down here in florida I've already seen the Ethenol stickers everywhere. So I'm already tuning for it :)

/\ there is only one local station with it so I'd have to be swapping back and forth -especially when I go on trips .

Unfortunately in California we've had it for years.
be careful with that stuff Brettus

I haven't seen a station that didn't have at least 10% alky. Most are 15%.

The devious thing is that its effects don't really show up on your lambda sensor in a proportional way, so its very difficult to tune around it.

another good reason to have water methanol spray going during boost?
OD

I suppose, but its a bit of "Pin the Tail on the Donkey".
I'd rather have a stable tune and uniform fuel quality, regardless of how crappy it is.

^ I wish everyone thought that way.

Yes, MTB has been off the market in California for 3 years.

so agree with that, but my momma said, "Don't count on nuting".
Now I do have to keep in mind that she also asked me if she could get the tv news on a dvd. Bless her heart--she always makes us laugh:).
OD

After touring a refinery about a year ago there were some interesting revelations.

Today's gasoline stock is colorless. Years ago when the sulfate content was a little higher it had a tinge of yellow. Mostly to get the color it has a dye added, or may just be part of the natural color of any additives.

Refineries create a gasoline stock and store it free of all additives. When a tanker truck pulls up to the pump is when the additives are mixed in because there are differences from state and local requirements, not to mention the same stock may go to a dozen different brands - each brand has their own solution of detergents added. How does this affect ethanol? Ethanol isn't added to the stock until the tanker truck begins to fill.

So 87 octane or 93 octane is the stock fuel octane. Adding 10% ethanol bumps the octane by at least 1-2 points. Not a big deal to some, but generally the 87 with ethanol is actually 89, and 93 is actually 94.

In closed loop the system will theoretically compensate. Having run various mixtures of E85/straight 93 in both a CX7 and an RX8 it does just that but it takes a while before the ECM seems to learn the fuel. While the CX7 is a piston engine it gobbled up fuel on the highway at 20% ethanol. I went from about 22 MPG to 19 MPG on the same consistent routes averging about 75 MPH, but virtually no difference in city driving, of 14-15 MPG. Throttle response was significantly improved after the turbo spooled (about 2000 RPM) but it seemed to have slightly more lag up to that point.

The RX8 (NA) had little change on highway MPG but dropped about 1 MPG on city. Improved throttle response slightly.

After about 10,000 miles on the RX8 after taking into account the cost differntials the E85/93 mix was about 5% less running 93 alone. Now that I've taken a different position I run straight 93 out of convenience.

Ethanol does absorb water however in a gasoline mixture the absorption rate is much slower. Unless you drive around with your gas cap off, you won't be exposing the ethanol to enough water vapor to make much of a difference, even if the car sits for a month at a time. Lighter fractions in the gasoline do a pretty good job of maintaining adequate positive pressure to prevent intake of fresh air.

As far as whether adding ethanol alters the amount of oil America imports, thats a debate that rages over political passion rather then fact so its pointless to discuss.

That would be the Oil Lobby...