Can you point me in the direction were I could read on builds that used the Atkins seals?
Have you personally used them?

I'm not calling you a lier. I just would like to compare from people that used and liked them to the people that had wear or engine failure from them. Same with the corner seals. Rebuilding more then once is not a problem if they last more then 20k. At least a couple of years if you like the build. I see myself driving it 4-8k a year.

This is not going to be my DD more of a weekend warrior lol. I'm acutualy buying another car this weekend. Giving us 3 DD lol.

I'm reading that the only problem with the seal is that it expands at a different rate. Just have to make sure to clearance it on the upper end and let it warm up first.

Did you search on the RX-7 club? They use the same material...

Between our little group down here I've experimented with several seals. The only seals that work right every time are OEM seals.

One guy down here had several of them warp after install, it might have been 1 in 1000 chance... But having to tear the engine open again because you wanted to save $100 is not worth it imo.

Its not about saving money. They are "stronger" then stock. I will be using N2o with this build and wanted to try something better then stock OEM.

Been reading builds on the rx7 and 8 with these seals.

One guy had the clearances on the narrow end and the seal warped as the seal expanded before the rotor. His builder didn't know about the expansion rate tell after the build.

Another guy did a stock build with these seals. He said he had the clearances on the high end and went through 3 engines with the same seals. He knew about the different rates. He wanted to see what the engine could handle and pushed 25 psi. The housing seals blow every time he got up that high. He even stated that he detonated like crazy a few times.

The problem is Atkins doesn't explain about the expansion rate. Which is a pretty big deal. I do believe Atkins seals are stronger with the type of material and how they are heat treated. Atkins is a pretty good reputable dealer. If there was a problem with the seals they would change it like they have in the paste. I think it is more a lack of knowledge from the dealer to the builder for the specification needed for their seals and not OEM. Basically having a tighter tolerance as you only get to work with the upper end of OEM specs.

On a side note. For documentation of this build.
I saw that this thermal pellet comes with the kit.
86-11 Rx7 & Rx8 Atkins' Thermal Pellet (ARE50)

I'm thinking its a possibility this is the reason for the bearing failure. Nice to know the one in the kit stays wide open on start up.

You don't need stronger seals, that's the problem.
You need seals that are kinder to the housings without wearing too quickly.
The choice is between OE seals or good ceramics.

All good do your thing man...

I thought the goal was to have a stronger seal so it wont break from shock but at the same time not wear the housings down.

What I have been reading, these Atkins seals are perfect for that. I'm not just reading "peoples builds". Its about the chemical make up of the material used and the process for heat treatment. Thats why Atkins seals will warp/bend before cracking/shattering. Atkins and OEM have the same heat treatment process other then the Atkins skip the last stage. Giving them a better wear rate.

I think its more of a fitment (tighter tolerances) issue then anything.

I also think the tune has a big roll in how the seals wear. Having people blame the seals when it was mostly the tune.

The tune is not going to affect apex seal/housing wear unless your tune is breaking/bending the seals. The tune may cause issues with the side seals as they are far more sensitive to thermal expansion and carbon buildup.

There is a lot of talk from seal manufacturers about seals that warp/bend before cracking/shattering preventing housing damage in the event of a catastrophic failure. I think what has been found by most who have tested them is that the seals themselves are softer to allow that behavior.

There is NO magic material that solves the inherent issues with apex seals. Most experts will just tell you to use OEM seals.

The results are the same if a seal breaks or bends: rebuild with new housings. I would focus more on the tuning side of things.
Don't you think Mazda would love to skip a manufacturing phase and have better seals at the same time?
You're thinking about seals wear rates but you should think about the seal+mating surface combined wear rate ;)
I could have a seal that lasts 900k miles but where's the advantage if it wears the housings down twice as fast? That's why ceramic seals are great. Long lasting and very kind to the housings. They won't resist detonation though but still, an engine shouldn't detonate.
This page is funny: Apex Seals The real facts with no hype

Premix and a good tune can lower the apex seal and housing wear rates by a lot.

Anyway, since Mazda OE seals are just a bit pricier but have an outstanding track record why risk it? You won't have to worry about expansion rates, materials etc. Just put them in place, set the side seals tolerances right and have fun!

Measures 60 PSI for compression, doesn't sound like a legit comparison :dunno:

Seems like another company trying to make us all believe their products are much more superior.

The pics speak by themselves!

Their is no way to know what conditions or miles are on any of those seals, if the company can't even read compression right I doubt the validity of any of that comparison is both truthful and factual

I think the one thing we can all agree on is that you will not beat OEM for low HP renesis applications...

Here is my brand new E-shaft.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...44805227_n.jpg

Today I'm going to clean the housings, might get to the rotors.

Will post pics of the progress.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...90982157_n.jpg

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...72830765_n.jpg

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...83311279_n.jpg

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...23708192_n.jpg

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...62696065_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n...24620246_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.n...02372999_n.jpg

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...03549706_n.jpg

I'm getting the housing's resurfaced. I think it's worth giving it a try. New housings are unbelievably expensive. This is the place I'm getting it down at.
Rotor Housing Resurfacing | Freelance Motorsports LLC

A couple questions I have with regards to the nitrous setup.

First, are you planning on doing any timing adjustments to build in additional safety with the nitrous shot? If so, are you using engine management other than the COBB?

Second, if you are planning on sticking only with a 30 - 50 wet shot of nitrous, have you considered simply looking into additional parts that would net you the same or more HP gain and scrapping the nitrous completely?

Finally, do you feel the added complexity of nitrous on top of a turbo setup would justify the "benefits" that could probably be gained through other means?

What material do they use to coat the housing?

Yes I will be adjusting timing. I haven't researched into what to use yet. Would like to have live data and adjust the map on the street like I have in the past. But we will see when that road comes.

I'm not going to give a set shot that I'm aiming for. It's what the engine feels safe with. No I dont feel you could net that much power with out the n2o. I mean, you probably could with very deep pockets.

Yes I do feel N2O would benefit a turbo setup more then anything else that yields the same power out come. No I don't feel you could get the same affects with out it.

Remember, you are adding another power adder and not just supporting one. This is not even close compared to how Meth is used.

With the link above, that is just resurfacing. A machining technique that brings the surface back to OEM. This process dose not add material. $150 a housing.

With researching more I did find a process called Cermet. This replaces the chrome and gives you a better surface then OEM. Gives you less wear and holds oil better.
It does cost a lot more ($400 per housing) but still cheaper then to buy a new housing.

Here is a link if you would like to read up more on it.
http://jhbperformance.com/services.php

Anything under a 75 shot you don't need to adjust timing, doing so will result in poor performance when not spraying IE 95% of the time you are driving.

The HP gains from a 55 shot is approximately 35-45WHP, do you know of any N/A mods that can pick up that slack?

NO2 and FI tuning would be a nightmare and not worth the risk, a proper FI is already pushing the limits of the internals, slap up 10 pounds of boost and then start spraying and let me know how long your seals last. Also it is never recommended to spray under 4K RPM, the point of NO2 would be to spray before spool to compensate lag, this point is rendered mute since spraying under 4K can be unstable due to our intake design.

carbon iirc 55 shot no timing, 65 retard 1-2deg, 75 retard 3-4deg

SKC ran 65 without timing without any problems

Man I am surprised that engine didn't blow a seal.

He did, but that was when he went up to a 75 shot without changing timing :lol:

I can't even imagine screwing with N20 on a boosted or blown Renesis. What a tuning nightmare.

It all depends on the car, engine and tune.

First, there are many different brands of n2o systems. One thing I learned, never go off of around this much hp shot. There are more systems that go off of whp with a dyno. So if you have a 100 shot that means you should be getting 100 whp. That is around a .052 n2o jet. .048 n2o jet was a 100 shot on my 11.1 2.5 build. If you say you have a 55 shot but really getting 35-45whp, means you only have a 35-45 shot.

Timing is only needed when the ecu can not adjust any farther. Most ecu's will have a tolerance of -20* to 20*. Thats why I love the live data logging. You will see what timing is, at what rpm, under what load. Then you have to take into consideration of the colder plugs and gap. Thinking about using the FD plugs for gaping.

I am most likely going with a full N2O set up. I feel I would gain better results with it being more reliable over a turbo set up on this engine. Heat is the main factor and don't understand why people would want to add more.

It is ok to spray at any rpm at wot. It all depends on your setup. The main problem is pooling at low rpm. Hard for any engine to suck in that fast 1000 psi of gas being sprayed in at low rpm. That's why they have nozzles that atomize the gas better and have stages of n2o. Having stages of n2o is more for traction. Of course your going to run into problems spraying in 5th at 40mph. All you need is free flowing rpm. If it revs fast from a dig you will be ok. If you have a long first gear and takes longer for the rpm to get up there, you might run into pooling. I have sprayed a 100 shot from a dig many times, even done it at the track. The problem was always traction.

It is 99% the user's fault for problems from n2o. Especially with FI engines. Seeing people point the nozzle at a 90* bent. Not having the nozzle 100% secured. Using the stock fuel pump to the max. Not having a purge. Using a button instead of a WOT safety switch. Not monitoring the AFR and EGT. It is always user error.