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so with the manifold already laid out I've requested the T321 16 Ga. fittings and tubing required and am just waiting for a response from the supplier on them. I also authorized the 7163 F(v) turbo to be ordered.
Psychofox pm'd me some info on his 6-port with 7163 turbo and it's pretty interesting. I'll leave it to him to post up the details or not. But needless to say his results when weighed against the configuration and boost level, along with the g/s max MAF reading, only provide me with more confidence on my approach and what the results are likely to be with it. Basically he has the more typical configuration as most kits and custom jobs we see on the forum, along with all the limitations that come with that like using the OE engine mount bracket, the APV impact on where the turbo operates on the compressor map and turbo space limitation, how the turbo has to be slid further back for fitment, and so on.
I should have the turbo in my hands sometime next week. Fully optioned, adds up to be a bit pricey, but it should be worth it.
So talking to Elliot @ Turblown, the BW EFR turbo literature states that the turbine inlet V-band flange is 2.5”. I was thinking this is the inlet ID, but Elliot said that it’s the large OD dimension for the V-band connection. Now thinking that the actual piping ID is going to be 2”. Elliot said he’ s surprised by how small it is, but the V-band housing supposedly outflows all the other turbine inlet options.
So you guys think my piping is too big, but I’ll be merging (2) 2” OD and (1) 1.75” OD pipes into a single 2” OD discharge, which is 1.88” ID. So the velocity is going to ramp up significantly where all three primary pipes collect together just before entering the turbine housing.
I also modified my piping configuration and collector tansition to have the two outer pipes come over to the center pipe and then all three go straight down where they instead enter into a 150* bent merge collector, which is essentially two 150* elbows merged together with the center pipe coming into the center between them. Similar to this photo below except they’ll obviously be spaced further apart with the 1.75” center pipe in the middle and elbow having more rotation to 150*
So I was disappointed to learn that the 4-port rear iron housing for the manual trans cars is on a 2 - 3 month back-order. Which could easily mean that they'll never produce any more because there are other RX8 parts are becoming NLA as Mazda starts cutting back on slow moving Stock inventory.
So it looks like I'm going to buy a used JDM 4-port Renesis with 5-spd transmission from an importer instead. Which I only need the rear iron housing, the 5-speed trans, and also the 4-port UIM because the builder doesn't have one or can't locate it if he does.
So he has no need for the rest of the engine and neither do I. I offered it up to one of the rebuilders here on the forum thinking he might want to salvage what parts he can from it, but he didn't respond. Seems like a waste to just throw it away, but if anyone else is interested in it please let me know.
So in addition of the 4-port Renesis intake manifold not having the APV drive motor and actuation hardware, which provides more space to work with in mounting the turbo, by also rerouting the Air Injection piping upward sooner and then over will provide the most space for turbo fitment as shown in the concept photo below. The Jet Air hose would also need a sharp 90* elbow on it too, assuming I don't just cut or remove the nipple barb and plug it instead. In the 6-port comparison pic further below you can also see how modifying the the engine mount bracket coupled with these other modifications is going to improve the space situation a lot.
The engine mount bracket I have planned won't have top part of the loop on it. The lower part will stay low straight across to the subframe before coming up vertically similar to the OE bracket but sufficiently reinforced & boxed it to carry the loads and over to the OE-style mount while the top mounting stud where the top loop of the OE mount bracket attaches will have a reinforcement support piece down to the lower part of the mount close to the engine. I suppose that'll be hard for most people to visualize, but it will be similar to the RX8Performance mount I saw with their turbo kit, except with more clearance to get around the Air Injection tube on the manifold flange. Funny that when they made a custom one for me it was just a flat piece of metal with no stand-offs to clear even a flat flange. It was kind of fubar and I just threw it into the trash, total waste of money ...
I did also order the compressor cover with the 90* discharge nozzle because it saves space, flows more smoothly, and doesn't flex like a 90* silicone elbow. Kind of sucks though because Borg Warner will only sell the compressor cover with the straight discharge nozzle and then makes you fork out $230 for a whole new cover on top of already paying 2x+ more than what any other turbo costs to replace the cover that will serve no purpose but they force you to buy
4-PORT ENGINE. WITH AIR INJECTION PIPE REROUTED AND TOP OF ENGINE MOUNT BRACKET GONE THE TURBO PLACEMENT/POSITIONING IS MUCH EASIER
6-PORT ENGINE FOR COMPARISON, NOTE HOW APV ASSEMBLY AND AIR INJECTION PIPE FORCE MOST PEOPLE TO SLIDE TURBO REARWARD
TOP OF ENGINE MOUNT BRACKET ALSO SEVERELY LIMITS TURBO INLET ROUTING AND POSITION
With that turbo sitting up higher and closer to the LIM are you going to be taking any additional/extra steps for heat shielding over and and above say a simple a turbo blanket?
Yeah, but I haven't finalized what I'm going to do there yet yet. The compressor housing is a larger diameter than the turbine, so there be some clearance. I had Turblown quote an Inconel shield cover for the turbine housing, but it was like $550 or something close to that. That's just a bit too much for me ...
Maybe if you end up making good reliable power and this is a breakthrough in how Turbo Renny's are built, 4-ports will be more in demand and you can sell if for profit?
Going back to the pipe fittings forced me to lay out a new manifold design. I’m feeling fairly confident about this or perhaps a slight variation of it ...
Going back to the pipe fittings forced me to lay out a new manifold design. I’m feeling fairly confident about this or perhaps a slight variation of it ...
Wish I had AutoCAD or CADPipe, lol ...
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Is 3D printing an option? I do not know the cost, but it would surely open a couple of doors...
Not an option for me, or at least I don't have access to one with this kind of capability. Wasn't aware that you can 3-D print anything to handle the temperature and stress loading a turbo manifold would see, but it would permit optimizing primary pipe diameter and transitional shape. I'm likely stuck doing it the old fashioned fit & weld method though, which I enjoy more than sitting in front of a computer screen, lol.
You'd have to do it using DMLS. I don't know how big the build footprint is for the latest DMLS systems but I'd bet you'd have to build it in sections and then weld it together.
You'd have to do it using DMLS. I don't know how big the build footprint is for the latest DMLS systems but I'd bet you'd have to build it in sections and then weld it together.
Maybe if you made friends with ol' Musky he could have one of his SpaceX nerds make one out of titanium for you.
3dhubs.com has options for DMLS for titanium, stainless, and aluminum. I can't say that this option would be even remotely close to worth it, though.
I just ran a 20x20x20 mm cube made of titanium through the estimator and it was $183. Stainless is slightly cheaper ($125). I assume that this is using bare stock settings for wall thickness and fill percentages (fill is usually 30%, not sure on wall thickness). Finding a print table that would print that size may be a problem as well. Using a hub in Boston, an example 10cm model they have in titanium is $4800 and in stainless is $4750.
well titanium is not really suitable for an NA exhaust manifold, let alone turbo. You can use it further back in the exhaust system where temps are lower, but I generally find the 20 Ga. T304 or T321 is sufficient for strength and as light or lighter for less cost. I've seen a lot of broken Ti exhausts over time ...
Otherwise let's not get too far off topic and pollute the thread with 3D printing baloney because I'm not going there regardless. I can't be sure until I have the car with a 4-port intake manifold and do the final fit-up which is the one benefit of doing it the old-fashioned way is that I can easily make adjustments as I go rather than rely on dimensions only.
Otherwise let's not get too far off topic and pollute the thread with 3D printing baloney because I'm not going there regardless. I can't be sure until I have the car with a 4-port intake manifold and do the final fit-up which is the one benefit of doing it the old-fashioned way is that I can easily make adjustments as I go rather than rely on dimensions only.
No worries Team, I figured I finally had something to contribute to this thread. It's something I dabble in a bit, and could offer a little insight into how ungodly the price can get for the more exotic materials and sizes. I'll go back to lurking.
Well unfortunately I had to make a decision and it was to take whatever losses come from pre-made purchases and down payments rather than proceed onward regardless and potentially stall out before completion. I figured to spend mid-high $20k between buying the car, the engine, and completing the full install, but the reality is I have more bills pouring in than expected from my recent health issue, which was further compounded by an appendix surgery and bills from April of last year. I was lucky most of my life rarely getting sick much more than some sniffles and sneezes, but my age and past sins seem to have finally caught up with me.
The owner of the car I was going to purchase has been dragging his feet getting it ready to complete the sale so I just optioned to eat the DP and back put of that and I bought a unique interior as well as the turbo and accessories that I’ll likely resell at a loss. Kind of sucks, but I also still need to finish out my RX8 race car and then decide if I’m going to keep that up as a hobby or retire from that part of my life too. Since that’s been stalled put for several years too it weighed into my decision. I’m struggling to find the same energy and enthusiasm levels I had in my younger days. Just getting old I suppose ...
Unfortunately this is just another RX8Club coulda-shoulda-woulda thread ...
01-21-2018, 04:47 PM
