logalinipoo

Here's the Finished product post 2 is the injector modification and post 3 is the manifold block.

logalinipoo

I had some bad injectors laying around and decided to tear it apart. To braize a DOT tubbing fitting to it.


The fitting metal is too low quality to braize. It metled.




I realized the top was about the size of 3/8 NPT. So I irdered a pipe tap for 6 dollars shipped off of eaby. The box was too shallow on the Injector so I had to start the threads, Then grind the tap about 2 threads shorter and retap the injectors.

I had to do that multiple timed until My 3/8 pipe fitting screwed in properly.



Then I used thread tape and a teflon inpregnated grease on the threads before assyembling.



The dot push to connect fitting it 3/8"NPT x 1/4" Tube. They can be found on ebay for about a dollar a piece. I Ordered this one since it did not have a place for a wrench, since it is cheap the hex on the inside started to strip on me when installing it. I would use the one that can be installed with a open end wrench if I had to do it again.

logalinipoo

The Block. I Asked my machinist if I could steal a piece of scrap aluminum. He didn't have anyhting close and asked what I was doing. So I explained it. And asked him to get me a piece about 3"*1"*3/4". A Few days later he called me up and had it with all four injector holes drilled and taped. The small hole in the very center is 1/16". The threads are 1/8" NPT. He even polished the seats inside.

I cross drilled the 1/16" holes with a 3/16" hole to make it a manifold then tapped the end to 1/8"NPT and screwed in a DOT 1/8" NPT x 1/4" Tube fitting in it. I got 5 of the fittings from ebay for $4.69 with free shipping.



1/8" 316ss Ball bearings were 4.96 for 10 on ebay
Conical springs from zoro tools were 15 dollars and change. PN: 1NCU6

You can see the ball bearings installed in the manifold.



I planned on putting the spring small side down to hold the bearing in place and have the spring base held down by the push to connect fitting, but this put way too much pressure on the bearing and would result in a very cracking pressure for the valve.

So I decided to make a caged ball type of valve

I cut the spring down and made it fit tightly into the base of the push to connect fitting with the small side up. I will solder it in place or use some JB weld before installing into the car because I have one spring that will not stay in place and it is causing the ball to not work corectly.



The last thing will be to braize a 3/8" thick plate on the bottom of the maniolfd so the ***** will freely fall onto the seat and I can mount it in the standard mounting place.

logalinipoo

So in summary

Bad injectors 30 dollars(about), or laying around
The block 30 Dollars, or could be made at home for almost nothing
Ball bearings 5 Dollars for 10 4 needed(you could go with steal or chrome plated steal, but I wanted better quality
Springs 15 Dollars, for 5. 4 needed
3/8" NPT tap 6 Dollars
3/8" NPT x 1/4" Tube 10 dollars for 5, 4 needed. They can be found for cheaper but I went with the smooth fit, I should have bought the cheaper ones
1/8" NPT x 1/4" Tube 7.5 Dollars for 10, 6 needed I will be using the others on jet air(2), and my catch can(2)
1/4" tubbing 15 feet 10 Dollars

A total of $113.5 plus 2-3 Hours time and I don't have to worry about hoses coming off, vac leaks, or bad injector's again.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

interesting idea - good work . Is that all the components of the stock injector you pulled apart ?

logalinipoo

Yeah, the little round washer is the top. And the inside is a flapper style check valve. No wonder they go bad it was very weak. It looks just like the flapper used in diving regulators but smaller.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Yeah ... those "flappers" are nothing but trouble


This thread just gave me an idea on how to test the stock valves under boost/vacuum to make sure they work .

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

I don't see this as any solution, just the opposite.

Buy new OE hoses, clean everything well with solvent, then install and you are good. I have to twist on the hoses with pliers and quite a lot of force to get them off on every engine I've undressed.

logalinipoo

All of my injector check valves were bad. brake cleaner and carb cleaner didnt fix them because the little flapper valve was warped. I put some check valves inline and they fell apart so i came up with this. Im also planning on a turbo, these should never have an issue for a hose poping off. All for a lot cheaper then replacing 4 injectors. I'll be using this hose for all of my vac lines. Im just going to solder a brass fitting to the jet air then run an inline dot check valve to the intake. Also a standard hose to my catch can with the push connect out of the can to my soan tank and soan tank to intake.

archon

How is this system holding up?

logalinipoo

It's holding up great. I haven't ran it tons since I've been building the turbo system, but it has around 4K miles on it. about 1K of them have seen a lot of boost up to 6 PSI.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

How do you know that it works at all?

logalinipoo

IT sucks air at idle. I can pull a vacuum on the hose from the intake and it holds. Every time I've had it apart I've sucked on each injector hose and they all flow.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

6psi is a "lot" ? heh

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

How do you know oil is passing through to the rotor face? And in the correct amount?

logalinipoo

A lot of time under boost. Mr smarty pants.

I have not modified the part where the oil is injected at all. It still injects at the bottom. The check valves works so oil can not flow back into the intake. If anything it might not relieve enough vacuum. That would cause it to pull in extra oil. I also have a sohn so i know i am using a decent amount of oil.

archon

A hypothetical: If you had a valve stuck open, even on an unmodified car, would that cause a small accumulation in the "chamber" even when the engine was off?

I found this thread searching for information about the oil injection system because that's what I suspect is causing the burnoff of lots of oil (varies based on how many days since I've started it) upon starting.

I've listed symptoms etc. more fully at: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tro...2/#post4696930

If any of you have any recommendations, I'd appreciate it. Sorry to hijack an interesting thread; you guys seem to know your oil injection business.

logalinipoo

Arch,

No man. It is a pump and it is mounted below the injectors. So it will not flow oil when its turned off.

FunRun8

iTrader: (5)

Ok so I don't want to begin a fight or pissing contest here but I highly recommend that no one else do this to their car. I've been doing quite a bit of research on the injector system and with my own past long time hydraulics experience haven't yet seen this posted anywhere so if it has in this form please don't crucify me but the conclusion is it is actually quite a finely tuned and precisely engineered system with very little room for operational fabrication without serious testing.

First, I've hesitated to even post this previously because so much posted here is so often immediately contentious unless it comes from a few "chosen" long time members but here goes anyway.

The injectors and the system are precisely weighted against each other for the purpose of both breaking siphoning (over oiling) and maximizing atomization of the injected oil, plus without a properly working vacuum system you may not get the tell tale indication of injection failure which is oil pooling in your flexible intake connection prior to the throttle body and throughout, if all is normally operating there should be no oil there. This a bit complicated to explain but I'll give it a try anyway.

I've seen people talking about venting the injector vacuum to atmosphere saying that the location in the intake line is static, it is not. It is intentionally low vacuum, approximately 8 to 12Hg and for a purpose, that purpose is to precisely resist the vacuum on the intake stroke of the rotor to a certain point and then to allow it to pull the oil into the chamber, it is not "pumped" in by the OMP, only delivered, hence it's low pressure as well.

The OMP provides a low pressure oil on demand, the engine pulls in the oil, and in doing so overrides the low vacuum resistance on the intake side causing a "burp" or hickup" of an air bubble into the injector around the tiny rubber diaphragm shown in the pic. The diaphragm itself is not strong enough to resist the engine vacuum and thus the need for intake vacuum to aid in opposing the engine vacuum essentially they're pulling against each other until the engine vacuum overrides the intake vacuum. The entire system is of course designed to react to need anyway so higher RPM's produces more oil need to lubricate which also produces more vacuum equally at any RPM higher engine intake = higher intake vacuum and more oil allowed.

Once the air bubble is introduced into the injector it also serves to atomize the oil before being injected in the chamber so it is a very precise and delicate balance that can be thrown off by several factors.

-Loose fitting oil injector lines that allow in too much air and not enough oil, and or cause leaking oil which in turn provides too little oil to the seals. Also happens when lines get old and no longer pliable from heat around the banjo fittings where there is metal heating up directly from the housing. Should be checking around 75,000 miles and especially if you have/get a rebuild or new engine.

-Clogged lines due to poor oil flow or either to little or too much oil injected due to imprecise injector and vacuum rates or imbalance in oil versus air ratio.

- No way now to indicate if injectors are failed and if you see oil building up in your intake connector with OEM injectors and you're certain you haven't been over-filled recently or you're at or over 75,000 maybe even sooner. Inspect and likely replace injectors immediately as you're likely already running with inadequate seal oiling for some time before you noticed it. Yes over filling can also cause this but that's why you can't overlook or dismiss either symptom without being absolutely certain depending on mileage.

Another down side to oil being injected into the intake in such a way is that it contributes more to carbon build up because of it being injected too far upstream and it cooks in the intake manifold, this can also cause the SSV valve to get oiled up and carbonized.

So this is why going away from the OEM injector system and parts to fabricating something this untested is a bad idea IMO. There are things you can buy aftermarket to enhance this system and make it far more reliable and nearly thoughtless.

I currently offer a hybrid set of OMP lines that eliminate a lot of the issues with the OEM lines and concerns for reliability and soon will also be offering a billet vacuum block/injector spacer in place of the OEM block as the plastic gets brittle and can fracture around the nipple ends without you knowing given it's location and then you will have one or more weak injectors not providing proper oiling injecting more air instead.

It is imprecise and should be properly vacuum tested but if you can gently suck air through your injectors they have failed and require replacement. You should be able to gently blow through the vacuum side, but not suck back through it and if you can the rubber diaphragm inside has failed and it will suck oil back through into the intake where you'll see it pooling but worse yet you're starving the seals of oil. Some of the oil is going back through the intake so it delays complete failure but it is happening you can be certain, so there is also more evidence to support per mix as back up if nothing else. Even a Sohn can't prevent this from happening since it still utilizes the OEM oiling system. Also it's contributing to more carbon build up so slowly killing your engine and sticking up things like SSV valves.

Finally must also replace the injector vacuum lines as well, they get also get stiff and brittle around the ends and no longer seal well on what is smooth fittings without flaring. Remember 3 out of 4 can be working properly and you can still cook your engine especially on the S1 since it was already barely adequate in perfect working order.

logalinipoo

No fight or pissing contest here, I would actually like to talk about this and see a few points. Well one little complaint, but let me break it down with your comments.


I've never heard of anyone thinking oil pooling could be from this system. It is a very interesting thought and might hold some merit.


I've never seen anyone actually talking about venting the omp line to atmosphere. Maybe once or twice but normally that's rebutted, with it needs to be routed to the intake post MAF. Since the air being sucked in should be metered or it will cause improper fueling.

You refer to "8-12HG"! Do you mean INHG? I'm asking because I'm not familiar with just HG unit and I'm not focusing on this just trying to be accurate. lets go with the unit of 8-12INHG which Equals 4-6PSI. No there is no where near that much vacuum in the intake tube. If you had that much vacuum restriction in that tube your air filter probably hasn't been changed in 100K miles. I currently monitor pressure before the throttle body with all the intake tract of a turbo system including inter-cooler and do not develop 1PSI or 2INHG Vacuum. At WOT on a stock car the intake manifold doesn't develop 1inhgor 0.5 PSI of vacuum which means that tube develops even less. The turbo does not make a difference at idle. I've drove with the turbo removed but the same pipework and had the same pressures.

The OMP is definitely a pump. It has 2 rotating valves and pistons. I agree that it does not develop pressure and spray oil into the rotor. I also know that applying a restriction to the hose will increase flow because the pump does not have good seals on the valves.


You will develop a very slight vacuum before the throttle body at WOT. less than 1PSI. The pressure in the Post throttle body reduces from roughly 8PSI-16inhg to equal the pressure pre throttle body. It might develop a small amount more in the rotor housings due to flow restrictions but it will be very little in comparison to IDLE. If you produced more vacuum at higher RPM then you'd produce less power since you'd be reducing the amount of available air to burn. With this lower vacuum you are still getting more oil. That is due to the pump outputting more.

It is all controlled by the ECU and is very easy to adjust by running the pump at a different rate. If it required more vacuum to do this, then being able to adjust the volume of oil injected would require a change in the vacuum of the system not a pump adjustment.


I can see this air flow making a difference, but at WOT vacuums are mostly equalized there should be little to no air being pushed through this line into the injectors.

Yes if things are getting loose, The oil leak should be a reasonable indication of this also. but it has nothing to do with this system.


Of course a clogged line will cause a problem. Lets also note that the only real difference in what I've made is a different check valve and a solid block that won't crack. If anything my valve has a higher cracking pressure. I have not changed the size of the hose going to the intake so the flow rate should be the same once the check valves have opened. It is well known that putting a restrictor in the air line will increase oil flow. So if anything the higher cracking pressure will cause more oil to be injected up to the point that the valve opens. Then everything would equalize.


Here's where you get a little confusing.
If the stock injector fails it will flow oil back up the tube into the intake. What failure mode are you referring to. I see three possible failures.

#1 oil doesn't come out of the hose. There will be no indication of this except removing the lines and individually testing.

#2 The injector becomes clogged below the oil hose inlet than oil could build up and flow back into the intake accordian tube. Well that makes no sense at all. If it has failed and the omp does not exert pressure as you've implied before, than the flapper is closed and oil will fill in the injector but not move toward the accordian tube. This would be increased if the accordian is actually puiing 8-12inhg making an even better seal on the flapper. IF the flapper is bad and not sealing or the OMP is exerting enough pressure to cause it to fail then the very little extra oil flowing out would be sucked in by the 3 remaining functioning injectors. The only way this would work is if they are all 4 clogged and all 4 flappers are bad. based on your assumption that the intake is pulling the flappers closed with 8-12inhg of vacuum and the omp does not put out pressure.

#3 the injector flapper fails. The engine still produces more vacuum in the rotor housing than in the accordian tube. Which causes the oil to still be sucked into the engine, maybe at a lower rate based on what you said before but still it is not backing up into the accordian tube.

In conclusion I can only see your statement being accurate if all 4 injectors are clogged at the same time. I'll put my paycheck to yours that your engine is trash by this time.

you are correct. I won't see this failure because my check valves won't be failing at the same rate the flappers fail.



Agreed, but I've helped reduce this by ensuring the flappers do not fail.

Please show me one aftermarket part that addresses the failing flapper valves or the possibility of a vac leak from those lines. If you want to add to that challenge then make sure you didn't just invent it based on my idea.

So are you a vendor here since you're offering things for sale in multiple threads? Please don't crap on my threads for an opportunity to sell things. This line right here changes this from you might be serious to me thinking that you're just on a sales ploy.


Agreed, but only if all 4 injectors are clogged. At which time your engine is trash.


Agreed as I have setup with much higher temp lines rated to 300 psi and 300 Deg F working temperature and having an O-ring seal.

FunRun8

iTrader: (5)

Ok there's no way I can or even want to answer all of that, my comment stands as fact I've no time or interest for so much rebuttal. I posted my info for those who wish to disseminate it on their own and do with it what they will? What I said is accurate, if instead of point by point rebuttal to every comment made you explained how you think the injectors work that'd be a better plan.. Just for information purposes I'm VERY clear how they work..

One counter point though, of course there is air injected why do you think the injectors allow flow of air from the vacuum side into the injector (psi but which is actually vacuum until the engine vacuum overcomes the intake vacuum and turns it into psi injected momentarily) but not allow reverse from the oil side? I'd be curious to know your response?

I did not offer anything for sale, did you see any ads with any links, pictures, pricing etc. promoting my product? I merely mentioned there area alternatives available, one of which I happen to offer as has been done in other threads but touting other products offered by outside sources, is that not what the forum is for?

I wasn't addressing the injector issue, IMO that should be maintained as OEM the presmise for my post. I was addressing the OMP line issue I'm not showing them here BECAUSE I'm not posting to promote a product I've produced but more so to inform the members of the prevailing cause and effect of the system. But if you want to go down that path, even still if I had something like your design so what? Is yours proprietary?

Your design allows for far more air if any, since you don't feel there is enough vacuum in the system, how is the small amount of vacuum produced going to open those much heavier spring check valves you have installed in the block so much further away? And since they are so much further away from the injector if they can open at all they will allow in much more air then should be required. Do you pre-mix? That may be the ONLY thing saving your engine so far as I see it..

The oil is only "pumped" up to the injectors, I already made that point, the OMP is not a pressure pump in the usual sense like say, the engine oil pump is.. It would be very easy to dead head or back pressure with very little resistance so therefore not pumping oil to the injectors.

BTW I'm not making any "assumptions" only full understanding.

Your understanding of the system is failing you and there can be any singular flapper failures that can fail and allow oil past them into the vacuum from the intake because there is always some vacuum back to the intake, there is NEVER pressure on it, it just changes in nano seconds as the rotor rotates and reaches static vacuum as it does several times per rotation at or near it's apex.

The OMP is not pumping the oil back into the system it is merely pumping to the injector but of course it has slight pressure and will aid in sending the oil through with the engine vacuum and if the internal flapper fails oil is then allowed, indeed sucked and pushed, in small increments depending on how severe the failure is, into the vacuum system back into the intake. I took one apart just the other day (and it is not the first) that had oil leaking out of the vacuum block and that was the source, there is NO other source to be had in that instance. I believe many mechanically competent techs have generally just overlooked this symptom not fully understanding how the system works and casting off oil in the intake as just over filling and blow back. But if you think really hard about it, it is obvious that oil will flow back into the intake if the flapper fails, it is the only barrier to prevent it and there is both vacuum and pressure present to cause back flow.

I personally believe that this is a way that the engineers intended so as to also give an indication of an issue without having to do a full disassemble and test without some certainty, the engineers aren't dummies you know?

I think 300 degrees is not even enough to manage the heat of the injectors directly installed in the housing, the OMP end is another story, but the oil temp itself is not that far off of that temp so it's still borderline, even lesser temps can still eventually break down border line materials. I need to get a temp but I feel certain it is exceeding that by some margin, especially if you are running it harder then just a grocery trip.

Your design is a complete overhaul of the oil injector system, it's not just a change in the flapper, it's entirely redesigned from vacuum block to injector and moving the check valve system way back into the system as well into the vacuum block, instead of being directly in the injector.

Let's be clear here, I'm not necessarily attacking your design personally, this just happened to be a thread that called for information and differing point of view. I'm just providing clarity to the members (hopefully) on how the system operates and how precise it actually is and yes discouraging them from doing anything as radical as you've done because it can cost them real money and these forums are supposed to be about information. From there they can do what they want with the info based on their own conclusions.

logalinipoo

You know it's funny you say you don't post due to attacks, but when someone trys to break down your wall of text with an equal wall of text and breaks it out into individual points. You just replay with a wall of text about how you can't respond. I'm sorry I wanted to have a real technical conversation with you about how this works just to show how careless you are in your reply's. I'll still take the time to address your's and prove my point. I just won't bother to take my time making it read better.

How the injectors work is very simple. omp pumps oil into them. The rotors suck the oil in with the engine vacuum. If you do not have a vent then the engine vacuum will pull excess amounts of oil past the omp's poor seals and you run out of oil. So there is a vent line. This line sucks in air that needs fuel so it connects to the intake post MAF. Done!!

Ummm, where did I say air is not injected. It is not injected at a constant rate, but it definitely flows from the intake into the injector. But air would from from the side with the higher pressure into the vacuum side. Not the opposite that you are implying.

Even in the case there is a very momentary point of pressure from the engine toward the distribution block. The other rotor is on an intake stroke so any oil pushed back into the distribution block would be sucked immediately into the other rotor. If you simply remove the hose from the intake and put your finger on it. You will see that there is a constant vacuum on it. It will never get a surge of pressure that causes it to release from your finger. Brand new, old as hell or modified like mine. If it never gets that surge then oil would never travel back into the intake.

Of course you didn't post pics or pricing and you're defending that since that's your way of avoiding forum rules. I don't care. I just asked that you keep it out of my threads. If you were violating rules I would have reported it.

I Challange you for a second time to post any one aftermarket product that addresses the failing flappers in the injectors. I don't care if it is yours or not. PM me if you have a product and I will advertise it for you legaly in this thread. Hell I'll offer to post it in at least 10 omp related threads just to see if it actually exists. But I'm gonig to guess you're just going to spout off again with nothing to show for it. as for your lines What specalized material is there that will not shrink. Just because they're coated in stainless they are still normally made of PTFE. Do you have analysis of the stock lines to know what type of material they are made out of? That way you can truly say the aftermarket options are better? Do you have any actual data on service life time frame for this new material? And no I don't care if you completely copy my design. If I cared I would have kept it to myself not did a explanation online of the solution. That was a true challenge. Since I know no products exist to solve this problem. and you implied there were, btu it's nice to see you crawfishing now.

LOL, My design uses the same size openings almost entirely as the vacuum block and the same size hose. So how does it allow for more airflow? Please point my to whatever term I can use to search or anything that might show how being 3-4 inches away will change the airflow.What potential problem do you see from more airflow? IF the omp is delivering oil to the injector than more flow will not affect oil delivery. It might affect spray pattern. Did you even bother to read the DIY it clearly says that the spring was too strong so it is a cage. The Bearing is free floating the only thing affecting it's seal at all is differential pressure/gravity.No premix here and a sohn. Sorry sweetheart, but I use a quart every 1500 miles and that line is completely free of oil at the intake tube. So like I said if anything it's supplying extra oil.


I agree that the omp probably puts out very little pressure if deadheaded. No problems but it is still a positive displacement pump.

You are not assuming?????? so you can understand that the accordian tube had a vacuum in it of 12inhg, when a pressure gauge can not show it. Where is that number coming from, if it's not an assumption?

I agree that my understanding might not be 100% that's why I attempted to break this down step by step and talk about it. It is you who is failing here. I can prove very simply that there is never a chance for oil to flow up that hose and into the intake. Just pull it off and put your finger on it. It will suck onto your finger and stay there. Wow, but you can understand how that continuous vacuum will push oil flow into the opposite direction. How is that? Is there anyone else out there that will repeat this test and confirm if it has pressure ever?

Agreed There might be a very small blip of pressure for a nano second that could push oil from the injector. Some of oil might push from the injector back into the vacuum block, If the flapper is bad. But it would be sucked into the other rotor which is on it's intake stroke and never make it back into the accordian tube. This is once again proved by just putting your finger on the hose. Or you could use a pressure sensor and log that is never goes static. It always has a vacuum on it.

The engineers have a simple test for it. Remove the hose from the intake and use a handheld vac pump to test if the flappers have failed. It is more complicated to pull the intake apart and look than it is to just put a pump on and test.

300 Deg might not be enough you are right. I've shot every bit of the system with a laser temp gauge and never seen over 250F. That is after very hard driving with A turbo. I think their position in the housing does not get exposed to high heat. How do you figure the oil temp is near that? I monitor it at the filter and it is 220F at highest. yes it flows through teh engine block that is around 220F on the top corner into the front housing and into the omp. 80 Deg is significant. but again I am using oil from a sohn tank. that runs cooler again. I can see that being a problem with the stock oil supply and an engine not running right. Higher temp equipment could easily be used. The same parts are offered in 1000Deg for slightly more cost.

What did I overhaul? I removed the flapper and moved it into the vac block. I used the same size hoses and the same size channels in the vac block. Again what difference would the check valve make having 3-4" of small hose between the two?

I don't take it as an attack I took it as an opportunity to talk through what could be wrong and how things could be affected. I tried to address them very openly and specifically so you could point out me flaws more directly.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

There is no AIR PRESSURE in the injector nozzle...just like there isn't pressure under an airplane wing ( In an NA car )

There is AIR FLOW through the nozzle...but is is a result of suction pulling air into the combustion chamber in the intake stroke

The OMP is a positive displacement pump with oil output dependent on the stroke of the 2 pistons.

The flapper valve is there to keep the oil from backing up into the air inlet chamber down the feed line. The amount of oil injected will be cleared from the injector by the amount of airflow into the nozzle. There is much more airflow than oil flow...and the injector has a small reservoir where the flapper is that is bigger than the amount of oil injected.
In order for oil to flow back into the intake from this system in large enough amounts to be noticeable would require all 4 injector nozzles to be completely plugged. That would be the only way that the airflow into the other injectors wouldn't just suck in the oil through them and into the engine

As per the heat issue.....the OMP end will see heat from the exhaust manifold that will cause it to potentially get warmer than 200 degrees. The injector end will be limited to coolant and oil temp maximums...that are way below 300 degrees ...more likely 200 at most times. Can't see that being an issue

I think there seems to be some misinformation about the role of the flapper valve.....it is designed to stop oil from back flowing...not to block off the airflow

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Logalinipoo.....the ball bearing valve you have inserted should work similar to the flapper valve. It has added a ball bearing seal instead of the rubber flapper.

The oil will potentially back up towards the valve when the oil is injected...but as discussed earlier with the amount of oil and airflow through the system....it is unlikely that it will get to to the valves anyway

You may have slightly less airflow through the valves.....but I think the nozzle is still the restriction so shouldn't matter

FunRun8

iTrader: (5)

Ok so there is so many knots tied into this post it's not even possible to untie them all so I'm not going to get a headache even trying.