Fuel was fine at 11.5 afr (was logging when it happened) and exhaust gas temp post turbo was 1725F which is a lot lower than iv'e seen in the past .
I'm 99% sure it was the plugs or more specifically the plug/coil combination I was running .. They were 0.2mm larger gap than the NGKs

It kills me how people want to question anything and everything about these seals but they will buy apex seals from any other brand blindly and wont question shit...

I've done the exact same thing on stock seals, many, many times.

And that metallurgy would be what, exactly?
Many people have spent many, many times over your budget to investigate the apex seal issues. They, in turn have been eclipsed by Mazda's budget for the same over the last 40 years.
I have a fair understanding of metallurgy (a lawsuit over a snapped tie-rod end that had been heated during a wheel alignment will do that for you). Feel free to explain why your claims of strength/resilience are not bracketed strongly by the word "may".

And who might these "people" be?

good thing your engine is still alive @ the moment. Im very close to a rebuild and I will try Esmeril seals. I know the story of stock seals, so I went out and tried Atkins...didnt even last 10,000 miles. Car never overheated. Stayed well oiled. Babied it. Backfired one sunny day and that was all she wrote. However, it couldve been my engine builder.. never know. But, Esmeril is next. I will premix from DAY 1!!

Well based on my experiences with them so far and listening to the points made in the above argument I would say they are certainly no worse than stock and "may" be an improvement .
So give them a crack

Agreed.

Bad choice of words.

:lol:

[QUOTE MazdaManiac]And who might these "people" be?[/QUOTE]

The list is toooo long, but i can tell you im talking about the ones who dont even have an interest in using these seals but wont think twice about bashing them, so simply put, if the shoe fits wear it!

Ok...

First, my knowledge of metallurgy is not due to a lawsuit, it is due to extensive studies during my Mechanical Engineering career which has involved, college, structural design of components for cars and machinery and more important, machined medical devices.

Second, Mazda's goal is to sell cars, that is the goal of any car company, not to make the best car, but to make the car that sells the most. Their research and improvements are based on the perception the cars get from the potential buyers and that alone. If the car is perceived as being good/fun/reliable/efficient or any number of criteria for that particular market, it will sell well. Because of that, Mazda does not want to develop a reputation of lack of reliability, they do the work that is necessary to make the cars reliable enough that the perception of them remains positive. However, they always keep sales and costs of manufacturing as a priority. The seals they make are good to get to 200k at least in an N/A motor or one at low boost at about 230hp, that is the design criteria, and no sane engineer is going to over design a product beyond the desired safety factor just for kicks and giggles so the fact that they have 40 years of development on the engine doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a better way.

Third, THERE IS NO WAY IN THE UNIVERSE that I will divulge the composition of our seals to some guy in a forum who isn't even a customer simply because he feels like challenging the functionality of our product. What I will say is that the reason our claims are not bracketed with "MAY" is because it is pretty simple to determine the ability of a metal handle deformation, impact etc...grab a book...or better yet bend a piece of 300 series stainless back and forth and then do the same with a piece of 410SS...note how many times you bend until it breaks... now you know which one is better at handling deflection which is not necessarily the hardest...you want something to be rigid, add carbon..but it becomes brittle, if you want more rigid but still flexible, add nickel, but then it gets expensive...etc etc etc...pretty simple stuff. This is coupled with lots of hours at way more HP than this engine was meant to handle.

People that have them and use them properly and don't abuse their engines(i.e. no oil, detonation for long periods of time without letting off, lean running under boost for long periods of time etc) will see the results, people that don't will not. Its that simple.

I didn't start this thread...users did...there are several dozen ER apex seal sets running in cars out there, the parts will speak for themselves.



Chris

It's a no win situation that's not even worth arguing about.

I don't really care about the actual composition - that is way too arcane for this discussion. Rather, I am interested in your testing methodology, which this:

demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what a seal experiences during detonation.

How so?

of course it is worth arguing about - this how we learn stuff ...

Umm..that was simplistic way of answering your amateur questions about how I can claim that a metal is better at handling forces of a certain kind than another one...

Do you really expect me to believe that you have the slightest idea of the actual way to model what an Apex seal or piston ring or anything inside an engine experiences during abnormal operation? Because, I DO know how its done, its not the first time I've dealt with this.

This is pointless....you have no clue what you are talking about and it is evident in your responses so I am done with the pointless debate.

Chris

p.s. at least it was entertaining while it lasted for everyone else...lol

MM and Chris have no idea about metal urges. I know this shi* because I once went to this museum with a bunch of rocks.

*throws a chair*

Fight! Fight! Fight!

I'm dissappointed Mawnee . You normally give me a good laugh .
I heard that owning a GM produced car takes all the creative flair out of people .

Awww Brettus! Dont you lub me anymore?!:crying:

Its still me! I'm the same guy! I just have torque now!

Torque to the hand .....









heh - nah man it's all good

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Well I once went to the circus and saw a strong man bending a piece of steel. I then went home, bent a paper clip and the metal had a similar bend in it...based on those scientific studies I performed I confidently consider myself an expert in metallurgy.

I can't remember if this has been touched on in this thread

Mazda designed their apex seals to last at least 100,000 miles in an NA application . The likelyhood of detonation is slim . So they designed them for :
Extreme wear resistance
Moderate shock resistance

In an aftermarket FI'd car you have entirely different circumstances .
You want
Extreme shock resistance.
Moderate wear resistance .


Now anyone that knows anything about metallurgy will tell you that you would use different materials to achieve those two differing goals . So to say Mazda knows best and these Esmeril seals can't be any good is ignoring the fact that Mazda were not even trying to achieve what Esmeril is .

brettus, what's your boost setting for regular DD?

mostly around 10psi but I vary it a bit depending on how i'm feeling and what the road conditions are :)

well that explains a lot .... :stickpoke

:)

whats everyone mileage on these now? I'm looking at using this in my rebuild next month, thinking about these or NRS cermamic seals

/\ Currently at 22,000 miles


Edit : sorry ........... 15000 miles

On the regular are you still running 10psi of boost?

/\ a little more actually . Bloody boost controllers are the devils work !

My guess, a loud noise, a push against the flat rotor face towards the stationary gear, if the stationary gear has enough wear for the apex to leave (or almost leave) the rotor housing, the apex breaks as the gases rush past the rotor/housing gap.,,,,


Just my guess.


:scratchhe

maybe ask yourself this ... did it detonate or did the flame front jump the apex seal surface into the following chamber(s)?

Currently at 17000 miles and the major detonation scare I had a few thousand miles back does not appear to have affected performance .
Also : now routinely running at 11-12psi in the lower rpm range .

I do get a feeling that my compression may be down a little due to the occasional hot start difficulty but this has been the case since the engine was rebuilt so I just put it down to using old housings .

Does your car has the most current starter? This might help with issue you have with hot start.

I parked my car for the winter so no mileage for the last 3 months....Currently I have about say 13000 miles or so on the rebuilt engine (esmeril seals) and on the 2nd turbo (precision 6265. The old one was the no name turbo that lasted almost 10K miles). And I do need a new starter. Mine crank real slows and take a long long crank to start the engine.

No it doesn't so you are probably right there . It isn't a big enough issue for me to warrant the expense ($700 here) of fitting one though.

That is spendy. My dealership charged me $379 installed.

even if I imported one I'd be lookin at around nz$500-600

Interesting data. Has anyone else experienced hard hot starts with new rotor housings with the Esmeril seals? Im very close to buying so im watching this thread like a hawk

Bump.

Any new info on how these are working? Anymore hot start issues?

Im needing a rebuild, staying NA, would like some NRS ceramic, but really cant afford them, thus looking into Esmeril.

Since last time I talked to you I ordered a new starter from BHR. I installed it myself which only took like 20 mins or so. It took longest to jack the car up. The replacement was easy and fast.

With new starter I don't have long start anymore. It starts almost immediately everytime. No more embrassment at gas station where I routeenly had to pop up the hood to pull fuse and restart engine. I tried start the engine back to back to back 5 times last night and it starts up on first tried every time. Life might be easier for you if you replace your old starter with a new one and it may eliminate the hot start issue that you have.

/\ good to hear . It's really not much of an issue for me though . It always starts - just takes a little longer than I would like .

22000 miles and still ok .

how have you been driving it, hard, mild or granny driving???

A mixture of all that . My daily driving is pretty sedate around town but i do regularly give it full noise through the rev range and that means 11psi which is not mucking around ...


Have not tracked the car with these seals yet though.

o ok hows your air\fuel looking crusing and on full boost.

Really good thanks , how about yours ?



Sorry - what are you getting at ?

welcome, mine is a little on the rich side but its good.

o sorry man i come in peace i was just wondering thats all.

Still all good at 30000 miles . Upgraded starter resolved hard starting mentioned earlier.

on a rotary a faster starter always does regardless of the apex seals

yes

bump

Nothing new here - what about you ?

I had the soda can crush sound twice with the EMU. Stock seals were fine when Charles did the rebuild (car had 47k miles or so at the time?).

Not sure we can compare the esmeral seals to stock just by saying the engine still runs after detonation.

Engine teardown with Esmeril apex seals at 60,000 kms.......


https://www.rx8club.com/major-horsep...1/#post4438190