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-   -   Engine teardown - 300+ hp with highish miles (https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/engine-teardown-300-hp-highish-miles-243801/)

9krpmrx8 03-11-2013 05:26 PM

Too late now my friend :) If I don't end up swapping in a REW I will be purchasing as many new (freakin' expensive) hard parts as possible. Finding pristine used stuff is getting very hard.

Brettus 03-11-2013 05:30 PM

I was lucky to find an engine that had less than 1000 miles on it for this latest rebuild :)
Have you had enough experience with the oil pressure mod to say that it helps with no drawbacks ? IE issues with the pump or overheating the oil etc .

9krpmrx8 03-11-2013 05:38 PM

I have it and we have installed it in on a couple of engines we have rebuilt locally. With my pineapple modification I get a maximum of 100psi or so, with the mazmart I would see about 120psi max running the same oil (0W-40). I'm not sure how feeding oil to my turbo affects that. To me it's a no brainer. And my last engine had zero oiling or bearing issues when it was torn apart by Pineapple after about 30k or so.

About the only downside is that if you are turbocharged you should not put full pressure to the turbo, most turbo should not get more than 30-35psi or so of oil pressure. I am working on a solution to read and regulate pressure to the turbo now.

Brettus 03-11-2013 05:52 PM


Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8 (Post 4438677)
With my pineapple modification .

Is that available to purchase or is it just a mod to the mazmart mod ?

9krpmrx8 03-11-2013 06:00 PM

Nah, just get the Mazmart one, Pineapple doesn't really sell a "kit" like mazmart does. The mazmart one comes with everything you need and it's simple to install.

shadycrew31 03-11-2013 06:33 PM


Originally Posted by Brettus (Post 4438671)
yeah , I'm regretting not getting this last one balanced now . My engine builder wanted to do it but I actually talked him out of it ...... doh !

Mine were fine when I rebuilt at 125k. I now have 158k? I think they have about 30k on them and are starting to show smooth copper.

It's all a learning game, so long as the OMP is up and you are premixing housing wear should be minimal. If you catch it before you pop an apex seal its not to costly to experiment :).

j9fd3s 03-11-2013 06:56 PM


Originally Posted by Brettus (Post 4438674)
Have you had enough experience with the oil pressure mod to say that it helps with no drawbacks ? IE issues with the pump or overheating the oil etc .

basically every racing engine since the late 70's has run an oiling system like the FD or a renesis with an FD regulator. its pretty well proven.

logalinipoo 03-11-2013 07:05 PM

Easy oil pressure mod

Get a 3/8"-16NC Bottom Pipe Tap

Tap the hole on the end of the regulator, Then use a 1" long 3/8"-16 Bolt with a backup nut.

Measure the depth of the cone on top of the regulator, Set the screw depth Just slightly under that depth.

I have 5-20 Oil on a cold start up I see pressures as high as 128 PSI, but once it warms up they are steady at 96PSI Max.

Brettus 03-11-2013 07:50 PM


Originally Posted by logalinipoo (Post 4438714)
Easy oil pressure mod

Get a 3/8"-16NC Bottom Pipe Tap

Tap the hole on the end of the regulator, Then use a 1" long 3/8"-16 Bolt with a backup nut.

Measure the depth of the cone on top of the regulator, Set the screw depth Just slightly under that depth.

I have 5-20 Oil on a cold start up I see pressures as high as 128 PSI, but once it warms up they are steady at 96PSI Max.

What does this mod do - physically ?

Brettus 03-11-2013 07:52 PM

Anyone got any suggestions for resolving the exhaust port wear issue ?

olddragger 03-11-2013 07:56 PM

there is much more to proper lubrication than replacing the pressure regulator. A lot. I am not an expert, but i do listen to others.
For example my engine ( with redline 5W 30W) my max psi is 93 -95psi. My MINIMUM cold or hot is 48-50 psi. You cant get that by just a regulator change.

"No overheating" uhhhhh--old buddy--sorry to port out you were having some localized overheating---big time. Look at the trailing and leading sparkplug sites. Now whether the gas leakage marks came before the cracks--I dont know.

Team IMHO is correct about the detonations. I think Harlan's work is showing that this engine is having more detonations than a lot think? The gas leakage marks on your rotors could also suggest that. Very possible. Makes me paranoid--lol.

After learning some additional things recently--i do know if I ever have to build another engine i will use ceramic seals.

Sure looks like you have clean gas where you live.

I think you may have more turbo back pressure than you think? Maybe? Pressure/expansion under the seals could cause the seal to catch on the exhaust port.
Also when the cracks appeared at the plug sites I will bet you have a patch of metal around that area that "sticks out" from the rest of the housing. Get a true straight edge and see...now that protrusion can cause the rotor to "wobble' more than it normally would and it may be enough at times to catch a corner seal edge on the exhaust port?.

Flashwing 03-11-2013 08:21 PM

Brettus,

I would suggest reconsidering your reduction of OMP injection next time around. The oil injection into the combustion chamber does more than just lubricate, it also provides some heat dissipation.

Brettus 03-11-2013 09:02 PM


Originally Posted by Flashwing (Post 4438747)
Brettus,

I would suggest reconsidering your reduction of OMP injection next time around. The oil injection into the combustion chamber does more than just lubricate, it also provides some heat dissipation.


RX8 Engines

Reading the pettit blurb about it in the above link , I'm more inclined to think they were right on the money all along ......Yes Team ..... I know .

Harlan 03-11-2013 09:07 PM

Another possibility for the extra bearing wear is preignition. The E-shaft bends under load, more pressure at TDC would bend it more. Does the bearing wear correspond to opposite of tdc or opposite of 45-55ATDC?

Brettus 03-11-2013 09:59 PM

Also of interest is the fact that the end of the apex is not wearing into the steel ,yet it has an even smaller surface area than the corner seal .

That plus the reduced wear on the non ported ports (that have less land area) makes me think there could be something to gain from reducing spring pressure on the corner seal ..........................

Brettus 03-11-2013 10:36 PM


Originally Posted by Harlan (Post 4438770)
Another possibility for the extra bearing wear is preignition. The E-shaft bends under load, more pressure at TDC would bend it more. Does the bearing wear correspond to opposite of tdc or opposite of 45-55ATDC?

Centre of wear patch corresponds to approx. opposite 20 degress before TDC .

FazdaRX_8 03-11-2013 10:38 PM

So you turn up your omp on your current tune yet?

Brettus 03-11-2013 10:40 PM


Originally Posted by FazdaRX_8 (Post 4438798)
So you turn up your pomp on your current tune yet?

can,t - still on the ecu that has reached 100 flash limit . Plus I'm not convinced that is an issue here after re-reading that Pettit blurb and seeing that the exhaust port thing is the exact same issue I have..

logalinipoo 03-11-2013 10:54 PM


Originally Posted by Brettus (Post 4438735)
What does this mod do - physically ?

It puts additional pressure on the spring and causes it to open at a higher pressure.

It is like shimming it with washers but this makes it adjustable. Just like a a welding Regulator.

It does not relive any pressure out of the end. The flow path is out of the side ports so It does not restrict flow. Just increases the spring tension.

Brettus 03-11-2013 11:10 PM


Originally Posted by logalinipoo (Post 4438806)
It puts additional pressure on the spring and causes it to open at a higher pressure.

It is like shimming it with washers but this makes it adjustable. Just like a a welding Regulator.

It does not relive any pressure out of the end. The flow path is out of the side ports so It does not restrict flow. Just increases the spring tension.

cool . thanks for the suggestion .

logalinipoo 03-11-2013 11:34 PM

When I get 500 Miles on my car I'll drop the oil pan and take a pic of it. IT is the same as crushing the top that Pineapple racing says. I didn't want to risk buggering up the threads on the bottom and It is completely reversable, just remove the bolt.

Remember to shim the relief in the front cover also.

FazdaRX_8 03-12-2013 02:22 AM


Originally Posted by Brettus (Post 4438799)
can,t - still on the ecu that has reached 100 flash limit . Plus I'm not convinced that is an issue here after re-reading that Pettit blurb and seeing that the exhaust port thing is the exact same issue I have..

"These conditions also can cause the minute film of protective lubricant, (from the OMP), to vaporize resulting in elevated friction and wear, which generates more heat and wear eventually causing hard starting and / or a weak idle on hot engines"

so you turned minute level of lubricant to near non existent, the uneven wear can be from the oil squirters not injecting the same.....

Brettus 03-12-2013 02:43 AM


Originally Posted by FazdaRX_8 (Post 4438839)
"These conditions also can cause the minute film of protective lubricant, (from the OMP), to vaporize resulting in elevated friction and wear, which generates more heat and wear eventually causing hard starting and / or a weak idle on hot engines"

so you turned minute level of lubricant to near non existent, the uneven wear can be from the oil squirters not injecting the same.....


You missed my point . The issue is not unique to my car and is the most common failure mode of the renesis engines that Pettit rebuild .


We routinely receive Renesis engines that failed:

some of the causes are listed below by order of popularity:

# 1 Turbo charged w/high backpressure ratio.

#2 Poor maintenance

#3 Overheated

#4 Hi mileage/excessive seal wear; regular use of Protek-R will greatly reduce the likelihood of this occurring.

#5 Bearing failure, the oil recommendation 5/20 seems to be inadequate, most Renesis engines opened have excessive bearing wear, we therefore recommend a quality 10/40 or 20/50 oil the latter for racing and spirited driving
And the whole quote in context:


Pictured above are examples from failed engines which had turbo systems designed for 5-7 psi but ran
higher boost, this can raise back pressure ratios as high as 3:1 raising combustion temps to the danger
zone and compressing hot exhaust gasses between the engine and turbo concentrating heat on the edges
of the exhaust ports. This in turn transfers to the side seals, even the springs that hold them seated can be
affected. These conditions also can cause the minute film of protective lubricant to vaporize resulting in
elevated friction and wear, which generates more heat and wear eventually causing hard starting and / or
a weak idle on hot engines
And this referencing the pic showing damage identical to what I have on my ports.

The following picture shows a stock Renesis exhaust port from a turbo charged application, in order to
better show the failure / wear the surface around the port was decarbonized and cleaned. It appears turbo
back pressure and heat load at the outer edge of this exhaust port caused enough surface deformation to
allow the corner seals to gouge away some surface material causing damage to the corner seals and side
seals, this resulted in compression loss and engine failure, not to mention ruining some expensive parts.
Plus : we are talking about an engine that ran at higher whp than most AND survived longer than any turbo renesis I've yet heard about on this site .

j9fd3s 03-12-2013 10:43 AM


Originally Posted by Brettus (Post 4438784)
That plus the reduced wear on the non ported ports (that have less land area) makes me think there could be something to gain from reducing spring pressure on the corner seal ..........................

interesting. there are three corner seal springs. the wire type (1202-11-323A), used from the beginning until the early 90's.

with the JC cosmo engines they introduced the NF01-11-C24 seal spring, its much stiffer, and much more durable.

interestingly with the Rx8 they have a 3rd spring, N3H1-11-C24B, which is like the FD spring, but apparently with less tension.

so perhaps Mazda already gave the Rx8 less corner seal spring, and when you up the power more, it wants even less?

FazdaRX_8 03-12-2013 12:05 PM

yeah, I have read the article several times, I get what your saying.

I guess I am saying your motor could have lasted even longer?
but you are correct you did have the longest going turbo Renisis, and that desires high honors!
you set a high bar :)

are you running esmiril seals in your current block?


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